Author Topic: ToB Style Caster Mechanics?  (Read 1824 times)

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Bauglir

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ToB Style Caster Mechanics?
« on: December 15, 2010, 04:30:06 PM »
Hey, question. Kind of in the vein of the Magus base class I tried to write ages ago, what interest would there be in a spellcasting fix that puts forth 8 different specialist base classes, no generalist, and has spells learned in a manner similar to maneuvers? Specifically, your caster levels from all 8 stack, and you determine the maximum level of new spell you've learned by your total caster level. A generalist, then, would be represented by multiclassing between multiple of these, and might have a Master of Nine-esque PrC.

That's the basic concept, anyway, there are lots of details that need working out (such as what system to use for determining how many spells you can cast how often), but before I do all the hard work I thought I'd get some thoughts on it.

PROPOSAL
[spoiler]General Spellcasting Rules:Cantrips:
Cantrips are 0th level spells, and are generally not powerful enough to warrant inclusion in the above rules. All spellcasters know 5 cantrips of their choice. A cantrip can be forgotten and a new cantrip learned in its place each time a character gains a new caster level. A spellcaster can learn cantrips from any school. A spellcaster knows only 5 cantrips at any time, no matter how many spellcasting classes she actually has levels in. Cantrips may be used at will.

Multiclass Spellcasters:
A spellcasting character actually learns new spells and gains the ability to cast additional spells in a day at a fixed rate. While the table in each base class lists these for convenience, a formula should be used with a multiclassing character. A character learns 1 spell upon taking her first spellcasting level, plus one spell at each spellcasting level she takes (for a total of 2 spells known at her first level in a spellcasting class). At first, she gains a new spell per day at every second level. However, the number of spellcasting levels she must gain in order to gain another spell per day doubles every time she gains 2 spells per day since the previous doubling; thus, while she need only reach 3rd level to gain a 5th spell per day, and 5th level to gain a 6th, she must wait until 9th level to gain a 7th. These benefits accrue only for spellcasting classes, including prestige classes, but not for other classes. Thus, all spellcasting classes essentially have the same Spells Known and Spells per Day tables, and levels in all spellcasting classes (but not a character's caster level) stack for determining which entry is to be read from each.

When a character takes a second spellcasting class, she does not gain a new primary school. The school which would ordinarily be granted as a primary school, if any, becomes a secondary school for that character. If the class also granted a secondary school (or choice thereof), the character does not gain it. However, if the class granted only a secondary school, and no primary school, then the character does gain that. A character can only learn spells at a given level from her primary school and the secondary school(s) to which that particular spellcasting level grants her access. Thus a Necromancer 3/Evoker 1 whose choice of secondary school as a Necromancer was Divination could choose only Necromancy or Evocation spells for her Evoker level. A character who forgets a spell to learn a knew one can choose a spell from her primary school or any secondary school to which she has access.

Spell Failure: All spellcasting classes, even divine spellcasters, are now subject to spell failure chance for wearing armor. However, a spellcaster ignores any spell failure chance for armor whose proficiency feat she possesses; proficiency granted by virtue of taking levels of a class does not satisfy this requirement (unless the class actually grants the proficiency as a bonus feat). Additionally, casting failure does not apply as a percentage failure. Instead, for every 5% chance the armor ordinarily grants, the armor imposes a -1 penalty to the spellcaster's caster level, to a minimum of 0. A spell that would be cast at caster level 0 fails. Published spellcasters should be granted bonus feats for proficiency in the armors which their class ordinarily provides.[/spoiler]
« Last Edit: December 25, 2010, 02:57:32 PM by Bauglir »
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

Sinfire Titan

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Re: ToB Style Caster Mechanics?
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2010, 07:08:44 PM »
Hey, question. Kind of in the vein of the Magus base class I tried to write ages ago, what interest would there be in a spellcasting fix that puts forth 8 different specialist base classes, no generalist, and has spells learned in a manner similar to maneuvers? Specifically, your caster levels from all 8 stack, and you determine the maximum level of new spell you've learned by your total caster level. A generalist, then, would be represented by multiclassing between multiple of these, and might have a Master of Nine-esque PrC.

That's the basic concept, anyway, there are lots of details that need working out (such as what system to use for determining how many spells you can cast how often), but before I do all the hard work I thought I'd get some thoughts on it.

Well, for starters, you need to readjust the spells themselves. Remember that the most powerful of martial maneuvers is equal to a 5th level spell (Time Stands Still notwithstanding).

So if they had only 1st-5th level spells to pick from, it could be more balanced than actual spellcasting (so long as you get rid of the I WIn spells).


[spoiler][/spoiler]

veekie

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Re: ToB Style Caster Mechanics?
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2010, 09:58:09 AM »
Hmm, it'd be interesting to see for sure, but you're going to have to build spells from scratch instead of straight importing if its to do anything.
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Bozwevial

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Re: ToB Style Caster Mechanics?
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2010, 12:52:29 PM »
Hmm, it'd be interesting to see for sure, but you're going to have to build spells from scratch instead of straight importing if its to do anything.
I had a similar idea that was inspired by the arcane swordsage variant. I've worked on it a little--the problem is finding enough spells to make every school workable. I may have to branch out beyond core to find enough divination, illusion, and enchantment spells.

RobbyPants

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Re: ToB Style Caster Mechanics?
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2010, 01:30:01 PM »
You'll also have to re-balance the schools themselves.  Otherwise, you'll see that most of your wizards are something like Conjurer/Transmuter combinations, with enough Divination to be viable, and a smattering of something else for flavor.  Those two schools are just way too good to try and count all schools as equal.

That, and Evocation sucks, so you're pretty much down to seven classes unless you want a [Force] wizard.
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Bauglir

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Re: ToB Style Caster Mechanics?
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2010, 04:11:23 PM »
It probably wouldn't be as good a fix to spellcasting in terms of combat, although I don't plan on a ToB style "Ready this many spells, you have them each encounter, you can recover them with an action". Probably, they would still use slots per day, because anything else does require a tremendous rewrite of all spells ever and I'm simply not prepared to do that on my own.

Unfortunately, yeah, the imbalances between the schools mean that the wimpy schools will need powerful class features designed to enhance their school of magic. Which gets tricky, since it means you have to come up with generic abilities that can be applied across an entire school and can bring Evocation up to par with Conjuration.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

Bauglir

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Re: ToB Style Caster Mechanics?
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2010, 02:06:56 AM »
Okay, well, my proposal for the basic system is in the OP now. Thoughts? I'm not sure if the restriction specifically deleting Pearls of Power and the like (limiting spellcasters to a flat number of spells per day, period) hurts more casters or noncasters who rely on buying the party caster a Pearl of Power for a buff. Also, I intend to give each class a Magic Missile-type ability at level 1, and a few other at-will type powers to use when they're not dumping spells. The low number of spells per day is ideally to actually force spell management into a resource management game again, but I'm not sure if I actually achieved that.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

SiggyDevil

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Re: ToB Style Caster Mechanics?
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2010, 05:10:50 PM »
Well for starters, all Evocations could be maximized for free, but it's the maximum damage cap that's the problem.

Or rather, the assumption that spells need to 1-hit KO an encounter in the first place.
Perhaps if one assumes at least 2 spells are needed then the damage output could be calculated.
It would still need to scale when enemies get CON boosts or it will take far more than 4 spells to take down a foe, and you're not going to hit with all of them on every round...

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