Author Topic: What does it take to be effective in melee?  (Read 60390 times)

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juton

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #220 on: January 04, 2011, 12:28:56 AM »
Well I think the elven courtblade is a 2 handed exotic weapon that is finessable and worth power attacking. Assuming a leap attack + shock trooper fighter is decent, take one feat and you have a decent finesse fighter. Making it work one handed is a bit tougher, but if you enchant a rapier the same way a Paladin enchants their lance you should get decent damage out of a charge with it.

I've actually seen a finesse fighter work with just a rapier, but it required a 3rd party feat that works like Robilar's gambit except you can take it at level 4. He also added nearly every +d6 bonus you can add to a weapon, so at 10th level he was making 7 attacks a round for 10d6+, which sounds interesting but in play his fellow players wanted to kill him because his actions took 5 minutes a turn to resolve.

lans

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #221 on: January 04, 2011, 12:37:24 AM »
Fighters can trade Towershield proficiency for proficiency in Gnomish Battle Cloak also helps a bit. Karmic Strike works a lot like Gambit and can be grabbed at level 1. 3 feats can net the dex to damage ability. 
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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #222 on: January 04, 2011, 01:21:51 AM »
For a Finesse Fighter how would a Factotum 8/Fighter(Thug/Dungeon Crasher) 4/Legacy Champion 8(Advancing Factotum) with a custom Legacy weapon, 4.3 penalty table fair? Using the Legendary Locations from Complete Scoundrel and the Bonus feats granted from Legacy Champion and Dark Chaos Shuffle to max out the number of times you can take Font of Inspiration, and a few other feats you would need.
That should give Level based abilities a Factotum 16(6 SLA's one 6th level, IP 7) and get the Cunning Surge ability. Thug Variant could be swapped out, but I didn't like the large skill point lost. Marital Variant Rouge I think would be better than fighter though.

veekie

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #223 on: January 04, 2011, 04:54:53 AM »
Finesse Fighter eh, I spent a good chunk of my early gaming days trying to make it work and eventually worked it out that the best thing you can do to it is add caster levels. Lots of them.
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Senevri

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #224 on: January 04, 2011, 05:08:24 AM »
It was mentioned a swordsage // swordsage dip could probably do it...

No, actually, a fine finesse fighter? Elven Warblade 10/Eternal Blade 10. Rely on Dex to hit and Nightmare Blade for damage.

veekie

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #225 on: January 04, 2011, 05:20:44 AM »
^^
ToB wasn't out when I first tried. Wraithstriking was about as good as it gets.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

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"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
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Senevri

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #226 on: January 04, 2011, 06:28:03 AM »
It's _still_ very good. It's a shame... there isn't even a _score_ for a swordplay skill, really.
I think it's possible to build a relatively mean 1-h defensive finesse fighter, even without ToB, but it requires utilizing lots and lots of trickery and multiclassing and... you know, the usual.
And even then, the result is kind of mediocre.

Hmm. Let's start with Fighter 20:
Dodge, Combat Expertise, Weapon Finesse;
Combat Reflexes, Robilar's Gambit, Defensive Sweep, Melee Evasion.
Einhander, Combat Focus, Combat Vigor, Combat Defense.
At level 16, Overpowering attack ACF.
You have dodge bonus to AC of +7, can use opposed attack roll for AC, and deal double damage on every hit via Robilar or Defensive Sweep.
Weapon Focus, GWF, specializations, mastery for a flat +6 to damage, +4 to hit, even without any strength bonus.
Since there's Dodge, Mobility would open up Dread Commando, so we get to negate ACP.
There's still no benefit in fighting in less than full armor, though.
with Scoundrel, a Swashbuckler-dip + Daring Warrior probably helps a bit, especially with Deadly Defense (+9 dodge AC, too).
Mythic Exemplar 1 (sunyatra) would increase crit range to 14-20 with keen or improved critical.

That's about as far as I get off the top of my head... I also notice that fighters actually don't get enough feats, when splatbooks are open. If we could fit cleave, various acrobatic feats, some luck feats and whatnot into the build, it'd actually start looking like a finesse fighter. Ah well, I have a quick and dirty fix ready for that....

Solo

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #227 on: January 04, 2011, 06:33:48 AM »
What is he supposed to be facing off against?

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Sinfire Titan

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #228 on: January 04, 2011, 06:40:38 AM »
What is he supposed to be facing off against?

A mix of a hockey player, a bear that shits lightning, and that Native American superhero from the Super Friends who's name I can never remember.


I have no idea why the hockey player is there.


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Senevri

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #229 on: January 04, 2011, 06:45:53 AM »
What is he supposed to be facing off against?
...against other warrior-types in duels?
Sinfire Titan is probably correct, and definitely amusing.
IAC, +9 dodge AC is significant, especially as it's mostly unrelated to DEX or armor used. As a finesse-type, he'd want high DEX, so Dread Commando wouldn't be a bad pick.
Hm. Get touch AC to 30ish and rays actually start missing. Heh, there's a though - a wraithstriker Gish comes attacking, rolls a high attack... and still misses :D

Would Daring Warrior net anything relevant? I don't have CWar available...

DPR isn't much, admittedly. One of the nice, subtle things about PF Fighter is that those little +1s add up - even on finesse fighters, without strength. PF + WotC PHB 2 nets something like +8/+10 to hit/damage before weapon enhancement or strength, through just specializations and Mastery. It's not that much in a high-performance environment, but it keeps the Fighter player happy.

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #230 on: January 04, 2011, 09:31:10 AM »
Quote
Hm. Get touch AC to 30ish and rays actually start missing. Heh, there's a though - a wraithstriker Gish comes attacking, rolls a high attack... and still misses
Magic Missile.

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Senevri

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #231 on: January 04, 2011, 10:09:44 AM »
Quote
Hm. Get touch AC to 30ish and rays actually start missing. Heh, there's a though - a wraithstriker Gish comes attacking, rolls a high attack... and still misses
Magic Missile.
Piddly damage, and Brooch of Shielding doesn't even use an item slot.

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #232 on: January 04, 2011, 11:39:01 AM »
Go make a finesse fighter who doesn't fail at life. No house rules. I'll wait.

do you mean only use Fighter .... or make a Finnesse Combatant(any classes) that does not Fail at life?

 :D

Either. Closest to playable is a Rogue, but you're still inferior to a flask Rogue, and are even less useful when you can't SA (which is often).

Also, don't insult our intelligence by making an arena build to try, and fail to prove me wrong.

Oh and a touch AC of 30ish will not cause a Wraithstriker gish to miss on a high attack. Probably won't cause him to miss on a low attack.

I got a level 13 build that auto hits touch AC 25 before counting Haste (+1), Knowledge Devotion (average gain 4.1), Charging (+2), Law Devotion (+5)... and that is while PAing away the entirety of its BAB. I could do better. Also, you die in 1 hit unless you're 16 or higher, then you might survive.

Brooch of Shielding is a neck slot item, which means without MIC rules you have no Con booster and therefore automatically fail at life.
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Senevri

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #233 on: January 04, 2011, 12:37:03 PM »

Oh and a touch AC of 30ish will not cause a Wraithstriker gish to miss on a high attack. Probably won't cause him to miss on a low attack.
*shrug* My group's ray caster types have a to-hit chance in the 13-18 range, typically.

Quote
I got a level 13 build that auto hits touch AC 25 before counting Haste (+1), Knowledge Devotion (average gain 4.1), Charging (+2), Law Devotion (+5)... and that is while PAing away the entirety of its BAB. I could do better. Also, you die in 1 hit unless you're 16 or higher, then you might survive.
Your gish build is stronger than a near-pure fighter? Congratulations! Well done!
That being said, I have very little idea how you do that without base attack

Quote
Brooch of Shielding is a neck slot item, which means without MIC rules you have no Con booster and therefore automatically fail at life.
Wrong.

Sunic_Flames

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #234 on: January 04, 2011, 01:16:44 PM »

Oh and a touch AC of 30ish will not cause a Wraithstriker gish to miss on a high attack. Probably won't cause him to miss on a low attack.
*shrug* My group's ray caster types have a to-hit chance in the 13-18 range, typically.

Ray caster =/= gish. What does that have to do with anything?

Quote
Your gish build is stronger than a near-pure fighter? Congratulations! Well done!
That being said, I have very little idea how you do that without base attack

Gishes with Wraithstrike =/= Fighter.  What do Fighters have to do with any of this?

Also, Persistent Spell is fun like that.

36 str (14 base, +16 bite of the werebear, +6 ape's fury) + 3 enhancement + 1 weapon focus (war domain) + 1 circumstance (Focusing Chant), + 1 competence (ioun stone), + 3 luck (Divine Favor), + 1 morale (Bless) = +23 to hit = auto hit touch AC 25 or lower.

I could easily improve these numbers quite substantially. For example, Draconic Polymorph: War Troll raises Str to 61, giving another +12 to hit and +18 to damage. It also increases Con substantially, which at the very least boosts Fortitude saves from a solid +27 to somewhere in the 30s.

Only weakness of a gish is Dispel, and there's ways around that too.

Quote
Brooch of Shielding is a neck slot item, which means without MIC rules you have no Con booster and therefore automatically fail at life.
Wrong.
[/quote]

MIC 253 called. It says you fail. The DMG doesn't say anything either way about what slot it takes, only that it clasps onto a cloak.
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

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veekie

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #235 on: January 04, 2011, 01:34:32 PM »
Well, given that the very same MIC that declares a slot for it also allows you to shift the all important Con booster around....
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

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"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
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Senevri

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #236 on: January 04, 2011, 01:37:43 PM »
Ah, Bite of the Werebear. Fun.
Only weakness of a gish is Dispel, and there's ways around that too.
Would Spell Immunity(dispel)  & greater vs. greater dispel suffice?
Quote
Quote
Brooch of Shielding is a neck slot item, which means without MIC rules you have no Con booster and therefore automatically fail at life.
Wrong.
MIC 253 called. It says you fail. The DMG doesn't say anything either way about what slot it takes, only that it clasps onto a cloak.
[/quote]
I took it to be a slotless item. That's a nice completely pointless nerf from WotC. T_T.
Ah well, MiC is mostly fun, still. It's also only 3000GP slotless. :P

Echoes

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #237 on: January 04, 2011, 02:19:32 PM »
Ah, Bite of the Werebear. Fun.
Only weakness of a gish is Dispel, and there's ways around that too.
Would Spell Immunity(dispel)  & greater vs. greater dispel suffice?

No, because dispel doesn't allow SR. All spell immunity does is give SR: infinite against the selected spells.
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Gods_Trick

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #238 on: January 04, 2011, 02:30:05 PM »
...
That should give Level based abilities a Factotum 16(6 SLA's one 6th level, IP 7) and get the Cunning Surge ability. Thug Variant could be swapped out, but I didn't like the large skill point lost. Marital Variant Rouge I think would be better than fighter though.

I would love to see how the Marital Var. sneak attacks  :smirk

the_shadowmind

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #239 on: January 04, 2011, 03:03:28 PM »
...
That should give Level based abilities a Factotum 16(6 SLA's one 6th level, IP 7) and get the Cunning Surge ability. Thug Variant could be swapped out, but I didn't like the large skill point lost. Marital Variant Rogue I think would be better than fighter though. u

I would love to see how the Marital Var. sneak attacks  :smirk
The marital variant gives up sneak attack for to marry a wizard.