Author Topic: What does it take to be effective in melee?  (Read 42014 times)

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the_shadowmind

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #240 on: January 04, 2011, 08:03:52 PM »
...
That should give Level based abilities a Factotum 16(6 SLA's one 6th level, IP 7) and get the Cunning Surge ability. Thug Variant could be swapped out, but I didn't like the large skill point lost. Marital Variant Rogue I think would be better than fighter though. u

I would love to see how the Marital Var. sneak attacks  :smirk
The marital variant gives up sneak attack to marry a wizard.


Gods_Trick

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #241 on: January 04, 2011, 08:04:53 PM »
...
That should give Level based abilities a Factotum 16(6 SLA's one 6th level, IP 7) and get the Cunning Surge ability. Thug Variant could be swapped out, but I didn't like the large skill point lost. Marital Variant Rogue I think would be better than fighter though. u

I would love to see how the Marital Var. sneak attacks  :smirk
The marital variant gives up sneak attack for to marry a wizard.


What an overpowered ACF  :lol

Sunic_Flames

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #242 on: January 04, 2011, 08:41:13 PM »
Well, given that the very same MIC that declares a slot for it also allows you to shift the all important Con booster around....

Well yeah, I said that. The point was that the DMG doesn't say anything either way about slots, but implies throat slot, and MIC confirms. Of course, then there's that bit about crumbling to dust once the 101 points are absorbed...

Would Spell Immunity(dispel)  & greater vs. greater dispel suffice?

No, because Spell Immunity only works on things SR does, and there's more Dispels than just those two anyways.
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Solo

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #243 on: January 04, 2011, 11:13:02 PM »
Quote
Hm. Get touch AC to 30ish and rays actually start missing. Heh, there's a though - a wraithstriker Gish comes attacking, rolls a high attack... and still misses
Magic Missile.
Piddly damage, and Brooch of Shielding doesn't even use an item slot.
Quantity has a quality of its own. By which I mean, Time Stop+Summon Monster 9=Lots of Avoral with Magic Missile as an at-will SLA.

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carnivore

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #244 on: January 07, 2011, 07:18:18 PM »
Go make a finesse fighter who doesn't fail at life. No house rules. I'll wait.

do you mean only use Fighter .... or make a Finnesse Combatant(any classes) that does not Fail at life?

 :D

Either. Closest to playable is a Rogue, but you're still inferior to a flask Rogue, and are even less useful when you can't SA (which is often).

Also, don't insult our intelligence by making an arena build to try, and fail to prove me wrong.

Oh and a touch AC of 30ish will not cause a Wraithstriker gish to miss on a high attack. Probably won't cause him to miss on a low attack.

I got a level 13 build that auto hits touch AC 25 before counting Haste (+1), Knowledge Devotion (average gain 4.1), Charging (+2), Law Devotion (+5)... and that is while PAing away the entirety of its BAB. I could do better. Also, you die in 1 hit unless you're 16 or higher, then you might survive.

Brooch of Shielding is a neck slot item, which means without MIC rules you have no Con booster and therefore automatically fail at life.
sorry for the delay .... hows this(No Flaws) :

The Intelligent Unarmed Spanker

Human
Monk 2/ Swashbuckler 3/ Warblade 15

base Attributes: 32 pt Buy
12 Str
16 Dex
14 Con
16 Int
10 Wis
8 Cha

Attributes at 20th lvl
18 Str(base 12 + 6 item)
28 Dex(base 16 + 6 item +1 lvl +5 inherent)
20 Con(base 14 + 6 item)
30 Int(base 16 + 6 item +4 lvls +4 Inherent)
16 Wis(base 10 + 6 item)
14 Cha(base 8 + 6 item)


1.Warblade ..............Martial Study(Shadow Blink,SH7),Martial Stance(some Shadow Hand)(Human bonus)
2.Monk .................... Improved Unarmed(monk),Power Attack(Overwhelming Attack Variant monk)
3.Monk .................... Carmondine Monk,Combat Reflexes(monk)
4.Swashbuckler ......... Weapon Finnesse(Swashbuckler)
5.Swashbuckler
6.Warblade ............... Shadow Blade
7.Swashbuckler
8.Warblade
9.Warblade ................ 2 weapon fighting
10.Warblade .............. Unnerving Calm(Warblade)
11.Warblade
12.Warblade .............. Robilars Gambit
13.Warblade
14.Warblade .............. Blade Meditation(Warblade)
15.Warblade .............. Improved 2 weapon fighting
16.Warblade
17.Warblade
18.Warblade .............. Double Hit, Ironheart(warblade)
19.Warblade
20.Warblade


he gets:

Int to Damage(Unarmed)
Int to AC
Int to Confirm Crits
2xInt to Damage vs Flatfooted/Flanked
Int to Opposed checks(bull rush,trip,etc...)
Int to Attack for AoO
2xInt to Damage for AoO
Dex to Attack
Dex to AC
Dex to Initiative
Dex to Damage

Good Items he will need:

+5 tome of Dex
+4 tome of Int
+6 belt of Magnificense
Amulet of retribution
Boots of Speed


Manuvers:[spoiler]
Diamond Mind:
Moment of Perfect Clarity
Action Before Thought
Rapid Counter
Pearl of Black Doubt(stance)

Tiger Claw:
Hunters Stance
Wolverine Stance
Wolf Pack Tactics Stance
Pouncing Charge
Dancing Mongoose
Raging Mongoose
Girallons Windmill

Shadow Hand...thru Martial Study
Shadow Blink
Shadow Hand Stance(Assassins stance?)[/spoiler]


The main idea.......a Character who looks unimposing...No weapons, No Spell books,or component pouches....looks like a servant or butler......even without using any Manuvers....just Feats and Class abilities....he is very strong

For combat..... While in Wolf pack Stance...can attack and Move 5' after each attack...if he uses 2 attacks for 4 opponents...he does an extra 8d6 to each(Girrallons Windmill)...and if they attack him he gets 2 AoO attacks if both hit..he does an extra 8d6 each time because he is still under the efects of Giralllons Windmill.....after he attacks...he uses Shadow Blink to get back to his start Position as if nothing happened...

he is Far stronger when he Flanks or makes AoOs.......Int to Damagex3=+30 damage to each attack when Flanking, Int to Attack(+10) and 2x Int to Damage(+20) when making AoO(3xInt to Damage when Making AoO and Flanking)
at 20th lvl......BAB +19+9 Dex+ 5 Enhancement(greater magic weapon..or ammulet)= +33 Attack


Full Attack with Flurry and TWF and Imp TWF and Haste:
+29/+29/+29/+29/+24/+24/+19/+14

and 1d6 +10 Int +9 Dex +3 Str+5 Enhancement= 30 Damage Each

and he gets 9 AoOs...which generate 2 attacks for each(Double Hit)....all at:

+19 BAB+9 Dex+ 5 Enhancement(greater magic weapon..or ammulet) +10 insight Int(Warblade) = +43/+43...and 1d6+40damage each ..... thus each time he is attacked, the enemy gets hit back for 80+ damage(this doesnt even count the bonus damage from Girallons Windmill)

Hows that for a Finnesse Fighter

 :D
« Last Edit: January 07, 2011, 07:28:27 PM by carnivore »

Sunic_Flames

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #245 on: January 07, 2011, 07:28:23 PM »
You almost avoided violating the no arena builds clause. Of course, you still can't hit anything, or hurt anything, so that's still a fail.
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

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[/spoiler]

carnivore

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #246 on: January 07, 2011, 07:31:56 PM »
+43 to attack hits most anything in print(Pre-EPIC)

he is not forced to use Flurry or TWF so a Full Attack @+33/+28/+23/+18 ... is still excellent and can handle most things in the SRD

in addition, with the right choice of Manuvers, some attacks are Melee Touch Attacks ....

so not Fail, but WIN

 :D

Sunic_Flames

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #247 on: January 07, 2011, 08:02:13 PM »
Except that you actually have either 33 and a few attacks for piddly shit or 29 and more attacks, but still piddly shit. Oh and no reach. You also changed your numbers, and are playing on the no tactics, no buffs, auto attacks only, FINAL DESTINATION card.
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

BruceLeeroy

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #248 on: January 07, 2011, 10:25:15 PM »
At 12th level, which is the upper end of gaming my group does, that build would play fine. Gear dependent, but a credible damage dealer that can support the casters sufficiently to not be terribly overshadowed.

But then, it's mostly Warblade, so that shouldn't be a surprise. I think I'd probably try to bump that unarmed strike damage and gain some reach, which is doable with flaws. Otherwise, what's to complain about?

carnivore

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #249 on: January 07, 2011, 11:04:52 PM »
Except that you actually have either 33 and a few attacks for piddly shit or 29 and more attacks, but still piddly shit. Oh and no reach. You also changed your numbers, and are playing on the no tactics, no buffs, auto attacks only, FINAL DESTINATION card.
the initial damage is adequate(but i am not counting extra Damage from Manuvers), only if the Creature never attacks him... but if it does attack him, it will die .... but since you seem to think so highly of your own opinion... by all means, please demonstrate a better build .....

what do you mean "changed your numbers" .... what are you talking about?

also i can have Reach ... easily, just use Hooked Swords from Secrets of Sarlona

also No Buffs is great, i can easily Boost the Power Output with a Few Buffs, but this build does not rely on Buffing, it is ready all the time and in any circumstance ....

he can do most any Tactical things as well .... what are you talking about?

also.. what does "auto attacks only, FINAL DESTINATION card.".. mean?


At 12th level, which is the upper end of gaming my group does, that build would play fine. Gear dependent, but a credible damage dealer that can support the casters sufficiently to not be terribly overshadowed.

But then, it's mostly Warblade, so that shouldn't be a surprise. I think I'd probably try to bump that unarmed strike damage and gain some reach, which is doable with flaws. Otherwise, what's to complain about?
actually it relies on very little gear at all .... almost none in fact, especially compared to many builds seen around here

it would look like this at 12th lvl:

Human
Monk 2/ Swashbuckler 3/ Warblade 7


14 Str(base 12 + 2 item)
21 Dex(base 16 + 4 item +1 lvl)
16 Con(base 14 + 2 item)
22 Int(base 16 + 4 item +2 lvls)
12 Wis(base 10 + 2 item)
10 Cha(base 8 + 2 item)


1.Warblade ..............Martial Study(Shadow Blink,SH7),Martial Stance(some Shadow Hand)(Human bonus)
2.Monk .................... Improved Unarmed(monk),Power Attack(Overwhelming Attack Variant monk)
3.Monk .................... Carmondine Monk,Combat Reflexes(monk)
4.Swashbuckler ......... Weapon Finnesse(Swashbuckler)
5.Swashbuckler
6.Warblade ............... Shadow Blade
7.Swashbuckler
8.Warblade
9.Warblade ................ 2 weapon fighting
10.Warblade .............. Unnerving Calm(Warblade)
11.Warblade
12.Warblade .............. Robilars Gambit

Int to Damage(Unarmed and Finnessable weapons)
Int to AC
Int to Confirm Crits
2xInt to Damage vs Flatfooted/Flanked
Dex to Attack
Dex to AC
Dex to Initiative
Dex to Damage


BAB +11+ 5 Dex +5 Enhancement = +21 Attack Bonus

Full Attack
+21/+16/+11
can boost even higher with Flurry or TWF or Haste .... but still gets 5 Retributive Attacks @ +21 each

Unarmed Damage:
1d6 +5 Dex +6 Int+5 Enhancement = +19 Damage, +6 Damage when Flanking



i dont think that is too shabby at all .... especially for a Finnesse Character


 :D

Littha

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #250 on: January 07, 2011, 11:10:19 PM »
If you had any feats spare id suggest snap kick and superior unarmed strike...

carnivore

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #251 on: January 07, 2011, 11:13:34 PM »
those could be taken ... if Flaws were used

 :D

BruceLeeroy

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #252 on: January 08, 2011, 12:03:44 AM »
Apologies for my lack of clarity, I meant to say that the character would be dependent on gear for any utilitarian abilities. Also, needs flight at a bare minimum. I'm speaking, of course, from the perspective of my group. A character is only allowed to be one-dimensional if the player is very new and doesn't understand primary and secondary roles.

Sunic_Flames

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #253 on: January 08, 2011, 12:34:40 AM »
what do you mean "changed your numbers" .... what are you talking about?

Your post started off saying one set of numbers and then changed to a different, higher set.

Quote
also No Buffs is great, i can easily Boost the Power Output with a Few Buffs, but this build does not rely on Buffing, it is ready all the time and in any circumstance ....

Until its HP are gone in two rounds.

Quote
he can do most any Tactical things as well .... what are you talking about?

Tripping is Str based, so no.

Quote
also.. what does "auto attacks only, FINAL DESTINATION card.".. mean?

It means that, particularly in regard to low tier classes and/or arena style battles that people are prone to play enemies stupidly, only give them a fraction of their resources, and then beat them as if that means anything. When in actuality they only managed to defeat a heavily nerfed encounter.
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Midnight_v

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #254 on: January 08, 2011, 12:46:05 AM »
Quote
Quote from: carnivore on Today at 04:04:52 PM
what do you mean "changed your numbers" .... what are you talking about?

Your post started off saying one set of numbers and then changed to a different, higher set.
I noticed that too... I figured maybe he recalculated or something. . .
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Bloody Initiate

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #255 on: January 08, 2011, 09:48:52 AM »
1.Warblade ..............Martial Study(Shadow Blink,SH7)

Remind me what allows a person to take a Seventh level maneuver at level one?

I hate to feel like I'm adding to the pile of critics, because composing a build is a lot harder work than picking one apart, but this is sparking hints of memory and it's bothering me (like deja vu).
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #257 on: January 08, 2011, 05:10:12 PM »
1.Warblade ..............Martial Study(Shadow Blink,SH7)
Remind me what allows a person to take a Seventh level maneuver at level one?
The fact that access to maneuvers is dependant on one's initiator level, and the maneuver's prerequisites, nothing else.

And 1st level characters have an IL of what kids?

So to answer your question, what allows him to do so is "Screw the rules, I have money!"

Par for the course really.
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If you hear this music, run.

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There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Senevri

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #258 on: January 08, 2011, 05:40:20 PM »
So it would seem. Shadow Blink has no prereqs, outside being Swordsage 7. Unfortunately, Martial Study does specify "for which you meet the prerequisite", so... no fly zone there. Earliest non-PRC, non-Swordsage access would be at level 10, for Shadow Jaunt.

BruceLeeroy

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #259 on: January 08, 2011, 06:56:44 PM »
Isn't Shadow Jaunt a second level maneuver, requiring IL 3? So, no, it doesn't work at L1, but available to carn's build at L5, or 3 if you shuffled the war blade up front. Would push shadow blade back, unless you instead chose a 1st level shadow hand maneuver with martial study/stance (which you could easily retrain later once you qualified for a higher level one).

Not a build breaking issue.