Author Topic: What does it take to be effective in melee?  (Read 42021 times)

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Sunic_Flames

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #200 on: January 03, 2011, 08:02:01 PM »
Lycanthromancer, surely you understand what I meant, you can't possibly be that obtuse.

There needs to be a baseline minimum, else you'll get those stupid character builds that can't function unless the DM coddles the players (and even one competent player can ruin the game).
This. And the baseline minimum should be what a player gets WITHOUT making a single optimization choice.

So it's either a Natural Spell Druid or... a finesse Monk? Yeah, that's real nice and defined.
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

ProfessorCirno

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #201 on: January 03, 2011, 08:24:09 PM »
There's a difference between "I'm a bad optimizer," "I didn't realize there were player traps built into the game," and "Hurf durf 8 into my primary stat because I LOVE being a walking strawman!"
"Can I make it absolutely clear, here, now, that I'm only here because the producers said I had to be. I don't like snow, I hate being cold, I hate outdoor pursuits, I hate the idea that I've got to "push my body to find the limit," I can't stand this stupid clothing that makes this rustling noise when you move all the time, and I hate the zips, and the toggles, and all the pockets, and that and I hate your stupid truck."

"Listen. If we make it, look at it this way: you will be the first person ever to go to the North Pole who didn't want to be there."

Lycanthromancer

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #202 on: January 03, 2011, 08:28:18 PM »
There's a difference between "I'm a bad optimizer," "I didn't realize there were player traps built into the game," and "Hurf durf 8 into my primary stat because I LOVE being a walking strawman!"
Purposefully putting a high stat into your casting stat is optimization. Purposefully putting a low stat into your casting stat is stupid.

No optimization whatsoever = randomness.

The reason? Any and every character building decision you make is optimizing. It might be BAD optimizing, but anything that increases your character's ability to do anything is optimizing.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
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Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

Littha

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #203 on: January 03, 2011, 08:39:51 PM »
I have had a DM before who made us roll for stats, in order, after choosing your class.

Lycanthromancer

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #204 on: January 03, 2011, 08:44:31 PM »
I have had a DM before who made us roll for stats, in order, after choosing your class.
Then when you get an Int 8 wizard, you can do one of two things: either get yourself killed ASAP, or optimize the hell out of yourself.

You can get an Int of 40+ with a starting Int of 8 pretty easily, after all.

Alternately, choose a class that doesn't need stats overmuch, like a dragonfire adept.

And if you get screwed on Con? Become a necropolitan. Race can make up for a lot.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

Senevri

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #205 on: January 03, 2011, 08:48:20 PM »
here's the thing - Solo's sample character SHOULD work. If it doesn't, is a flaw in the game. As a DM, my first choice is giving the player things to _make_ it work, instead of letting them suck and/or die, and telling them to optimize better next time. ( or not even telling them that, and just brutalizing their next character... and the next... and the next... until they learn or quit )

@Lycanthromancer, choices should be between play styles, not between power. Doing that is tricky, without taking options away from the player, admittedly.

Character options should help in building a THEME, not a game of manipulating the power level of your character.

Lycanthromancer

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #206 on: January 03, 2011, 08:50:50 PM »
@Lycanthromancer, choices should be between play styles, not between power. Doing that is tricky, without taking options away from the player, admittedly.
This is not an option in 3.5 D&D. If you want to play a specific style effectively you must optimize for most of them, since they don't work otherwise.

For instance, choosing swordsage instead of ninja for a ninja, or a cleric with wands instead of a healer for a healbot.

There are too many traps in D&D; try playing The Hero System or something else.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

Senevri

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #207 on: January 03, 2011, 08:55:00 PM »
There are too many traps in D&D; try playing The Hero System or something else.
I am playing other systems more these days, fortunately. FATE and Solar are amazing, and Micolite20 is tons of fun.

Unfortunately, it makes it easier to see the flaws in D&D. The reason I keep coming back is... well, basically, there's so much all sort of intriguing material around, that it's easier to use it in D&D than try to port it to a different system. :/

Sunic_Flames

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #208 on: January 03, 2011, 09:43:44 PM »
There's a difference between "I'm a bad optimizer," "I didn't realize there were player traps built into the game," and "Hurf durf 8 into my primary stat because I LOVE being a walking strawman!"

Well even if you ignore the really obvious traps, there's still a lot of archetypes that aren't supported without a lot of work, or at all.

Go make a finesse fighter who doesn't fail at life. No house rules. I'll wait.

The point is that context matters. Optimization is not a uniform thing. When I see someone making a non viable character I direct them towards the mechanical executions that make it viable. Like telling the Paladin to be a LG Cleric or Crusader, that sort of thing. If they don't listen and heed my words, it's their own damn fault but the thing is all players want to succeed. Even the basket weavers. They might be too lazy to put any real effort into it but they still do want to succeed, and if you make it simple for them to play their desired character in a manner that works in actual play they'll still go for it. Which is why I never seen a single person refuse when I say hey, your character needs to step it up to keep up.

I see a few people that try and pull that on forums though for some reason. Makes me glad I'm selective about who I allow at my tables.
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

ProfessorCirno

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #209 on: January 03, 2011, 09:50:14 PM »
No, see, I agree that even without the obvious traps there's plenty of traps.

That's not a fucking feature of the game, though.  A wizard with 8 int should be shitty, because at that point you have to be intentionally making yourself suck.  Or your DM is making you suck.  But someone going "Wow I want to make a graceful and fast moving fencer" shouldn't just suck automatically.

Also, FATE owns, 420 play Dresden Files erryday.
"Can I make it absolutely clear, here, now, that I'm only here because the producers said I had to be. I don't like snow, I hate being cold, I hate outdoor pursuits, I hate the idea that I've got to "push my body to find the limit," I can't stand this stupid clothing that makes this rustling noise when you move all the time, and I hate the zips, and the toggles, and all the pockets, and that and I hate your stupid truck."

"Listen. If we make it, look at it this way: you will be the first person ever to go to the North Pole who didn't want to be there."


Tenebrus

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #211 on: January 03, 2011, 10:26:51 PM »
I have had a DM before who made us roll for stats, in order, after choosing your class.

So where is he buried?

Lycanthromancer

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #212 on: January 04, 2011, 12:14:32 AM »
But someone going "Wow I want to make a graceful and fast moving fencer" shouldn't just suck automatically.
Hey, swordsages don't suck.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

Littha

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #213 on: January 04, 2011, 12:57:09 AM »
I have had a DM before who made us roll for stats, in order, after choosing your class.

So where is he buried?

Shhh... they never found enough evidence.

Unbeliever

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #214 on: January 04, 2011, 12:59:46 AM »
But someone going "Wow I want to make a graceful and fast moving fencer" shouldn't just suck automatically.
Hey, swordsages don't suck.
+1, but it takes a fair bit of D&D-fu to figure out that swordsage = swashbuckling

Littha

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #215 on: January 04, 2011, 01:02:08 AM »
But someone going "Wow I want to make a graceful and fast moving fencer" shouldn't just suck automatically.
Hey, swordsages don't suck.
+1, but it takes a fair bit of D&D-fu to figure out that swordsage = swashbuckling

I find most people take rogue or bard to "swashbucle" if they have limited knowledge of the game.

carnivore

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #216 on: January 04, 2011, 01:16:28 AM »
Go make a finesse fighter who doesn't fail at life. No house rules. I'll wait.

do you mean only use Fighter .... or make a Finnesse Combatant(any classes) that does not Fail at life?

 :D

Rebel7284

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #217 on: January 04, 2011, 01:18:52 AM »
Melee bards can be pretty damn good.
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juton

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #218 on: January 04, 2011, 02:06:32 AM »
I really wish the trap options where more obvious. The same caste of players keeps bringing monks and warmages to games, I one case it's taken about 8 years for a player to be able to admit that monks suck, and that he shouldn't play them. I think there is an entire cadre of players who do absolutely no mental math when selecting a character, that's why they don't see that 3/4s BAB and an ability that makes you less accurate is a bad idea, and that a fireball won't do a significant portion of a monster's hit points.

lans

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Re: What does it take to be effective in melee?
« Reply #219 on: January 04, 2011, 05:09:30 AM »
Really warmages are fine, as long as they use better spells than fireball on a single target.

I'm willing to bet that I can make a decent finesse fighter thats mostly fighter.
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