Author Topic: Ur-Ardent  (Read 2278 times)

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Shadeseraph

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Ur-Ardent
« on: December 10, 2010, 11:18:27 PM »
I've been thinking about the Ardent for a while, and, after some time, I've decided to give a try to use a mixed one in the next game I'm playing in. Specifically, as the title suggest, I'm thinking about an Ardent/Ur-Priest Psychic Theurge. The unusual way the Ardent learns new powers makes it ideal for mixed classes, as most of you already know, when you add Practiced Manifester on top.

The first draft for the build would be something like this:

-Ardent 4
-Class X 1
-Ur-Priest 2
-Psychic Theurge 8

Getting Iron Will at 1, Spell Focus (Evil) at 3 and Practiced Manifester at 6. Race, possibly Anthropomorphic Bat, for the +6 to Wis, the small size and the innate flying speed and blindsense.

The build looks pretty straightforward, except for two problems. First is that I have to sacrify one ardent level to get a base Fort of +3 and both bluff and spellcraft as class skill. Second, the caster level for Ur-Priest is far too low for my taste, and a second practiced XXXX would hurt too much the already uneven feat progression.

Notice that we won't be going further than lvl 15, so the build must be complete.

For the record, the game is taking place in a inter-planar city the DM has created, where all kind of people from different planes can be seen. Fairly open-ended, and easy to work with at higher levels.

After looking for some time, I can't find any classes which improve ML and give the required abilities (+2 Fort, Bluff and spellcraft), so I'll have to use a non-synergizing class. Cloistered Cleric looks like the best option, even if I lose most of the abilities it gives. With Knowledge (For Knowledge Devotion), Trickery (For Bluff) and Planning (For Extend Spell) as domains and 6 Skill Points, the benefits outweight the loses, at least in my opinion. I wouldn't get any caster level for Ur-Priest from it, so I think it's a fair dip.

Lastly, I have some trouble deciding on the rest of the feats. I'm taking Creation as a primary mantle, and adding Metamorphism to it, so Metamorphic Transfer is a must. Linked Power is lovely, so I think I'd like to add it too. With a flaw and Extend Spell from Planning Domain I'd be able to get Persistent DMM too, but I'm not sure if it's worth it with the lack of turning attempts I'm working with (No more than a single nightstick per day, sorry).

So, overall, that's it. I'd love any kind of suggestions and criticism. Well, and thanks for reading.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2010, 11:24:01 PM by Shadeseraph »
[spoiler]
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Ur-Ardent
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2010, 12:34:07 AM »
Bloodlines might help you out, if you can stomach the cheese. Here is something I was messing around with a while back:

Illumian Binder 1/Ardent 2/Anima Mage 10/Ur-Priest 1/Tenebrous Apostate 3/Bloodline 3

4 levels of AM go to Ardent, and 6 go to Ur-Priest

Feats: Improved Binding, Practiced Manifester (Ardent), Practiced Spellcaster (Ur-Priest)

Counting bloodlines only once:
EBL: 16 (18 for vestige access) (or 20/22 if you think the Krau sigil increases EBL)
ML: 15 (8th level powers)
CL: 18 (9th level spells, if high enough wisdom for a bonus)

Counting bloodlines multiple times (once per each class/PrC that advances an ability):
EBL: 22 (24 for vestige access) (or 24/26 if you think the Krau sigil increases EBL)
ML: 18 (9th level powers)
CL: 24 (9th level spells, if high enough wisdom for a bonus)
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Etarran

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Re: Ur-Ardent
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2010, 05:31:45 AM »
I just spent a fair amount of time putting together exactly the same sort of character for a level 11 game - in the end, I went with Ardent 3 / Paladin 2 / Ur-priest 2 / Psychic Theurge X, but you can pretty much slot in one or two levels of any good fort class for the same result. Losing the Ardent levels doesn't really hurt you thanks to practiced manifester. Probably the strongest choices are Monk for WIS to AC, Paladin for CHA to saves (or WIS if you spend a feat on Serenity, which is from some Dragon Magazine), Cloistered Cleric for some Devotion feats, or even Barbarian for, say, Pounce and Improved Trip if you are going for a more self-buffing melee-oriented build. Something that gives you armor and weapon proficiencies is handy, since you have to take the class anyways.

As for feats, you have a few options. Linked Power and Metapower can get you infinite out-of-combat power point recharge using Bestow Power and a Torc of Power Preservation (not for the faint of heart! Thrown DMGs hurt). The DMM Persist chain is a good option even if you can only manage to persist one or two spells per day, but there may be some stuff that works better. A psicrystal is always a wonderful thing to have (especially if your DM allows them to get feats for advancing hit dice, which I would argue is definitely RAW if maybe not RAI). Scribe Tattoo and Psychic Tattoo Mastery are incredibly powerful options for any psionic character - if used right, they can pretty much make you immune to death and have an autoquickened power each round (there's a handbook around here that is definitely worth a read). Depending on how lenient your DM is in letting you swap mantle powers, Expanded Knowledge is excellent, as it is on any psionic character. Extend Power and Extend Spell are always nice to have, and can really help you through the mid-levels. Planar Touchstone: Catalogues of Enlightenment is good on Ur-priests.

If you can, purchase Iron Will through an Otyugh Hole (Complete Scoundrel, I think?) for 3000 gold, freeing up a feat to do something more useful with.

Other than PhaudrusXY's bloodlines suggestion and other similarly well-cheesed tactics, there's not a whole lot that can be done about the caster level of Ur-Priest. Clerics have a lot of great spells that don't rely on caster level, though, so my experience is that it doesn't hurt as badly as you might think.

What level are you starting at? This sort of build is going to be incredibly painful from about 4-9, and doesn't really come into its own until 11, so I would be hesitant to play it if you are starting before level 8 or so.

Hope some of that helps! Like I said, I just spent quite some time going over this material, so if you have any other questions, I'm happy to answer them if I can.

Shadeseraph

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Re: Ur-Ardent
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2010, 10:42:16 AM »
Quote
Illumian Binder 1/Ardent 2/Anima Mage 10/Ur-Priest 1/Tenebrous Apostate 3/Bloodline 3

No! Bad PhaedrusXY! Bad! No reinterpreting classes!

No, seriously. My DM, while a great guy, when it comes to this kind of things, is a jerk. As he says, "You live by the rules, you die by the rules". He doesn't have problems adapting classes for the non optimizers in the group, but for the more "genre savvy" of us, he says that we can already do enough amazing and strange things, so we don't need a hand. By the way, that includes using Pyscraft for Spellcraft prerrequisites, even if we are using Psionic/Magic transparency. My DM says that even if magic and Psionics interact, the way you use them is too different to count them as a single skill.

Illuminian... It's pretty hard losing the +6 to Wis, but so is having a caster level of 10... I'm not sure. Even withouth Bloodlines, it would grant CL 13 and ML 15, avoiding the need of Practiced Manifester, which is groovy.

Anyway, I had already though of bloodlines, but seeing as we wont be going further than level 15, all bloodlines make me lose spellcasting power (spells per day and spell level) and manifesting power (powers and power points). That said, with a Major Bloodline I would lose a single level of Ur-Priest spellcasting (enough to use level 9 spells) and two Ardent manifester levels (for a net loss of 2 powers and 28 PP), but I would gain a ML of 12 (Withouth Practiced Manifester) and a CL of 13, which is interesting. With illuminian that would be enough to get full CL and ML withouth PM.

Quote
I just spent a fair amount of time putting together exactly the same sort of character for a level 11 game - in the end, I went with Ardent 3 / Paladin 2 / Ur-priest 2 / Psychic Theurge X, but you can pretty much slot in one or two levels of any good fort class for the same result. Losing the Ardent levels doesn't really hurt you thanks to practiced manifester. Probably the strongest choices are Monk for WIS to AC, Paladin for CHA to saves (or WIS if you spend a feat on Serenity, which is from some Dragon Magazine), Cloistered Cleric for some Devotion feats, or even Barbarian for, say, Pounce and Improved Trip if you are going for a more self-buffing melee-oriented build. Something that gives you armor and weapon proficiencies is handy, since you have to take the class anyways.

Well, remember that I need both Bluff at 6 ranks and Spellcraft at 8 ranks, and the only way I can see to get them if they aren't in the original class is by means of Apprentice (criminal) and Keeper of forbidden lore [abyssal heritor] respectively. And no retraining avaiable. So many of those classes are out. Sure, I could afford to lose two Ardent levels instead of one, but the benefits of those two levels don't outweight the lose of two ardent levels, I think. That said, I may be wrong.

Quote
As for feats, you have a few options. Linked Power and Metapower can get you infinite out-of-combat power point recharge using Bestow Power and a Torc of Power Preservation (not for the faint of heart! Thrown DMGs hurt).

Better to avoid that one. I'm not pretty good at dodging DMGs, and seeing as the game is mostly a non-combat one, unlimited PP out of combat will make the DM dangerous for sure. Even lenient DMs have their moments.

Quote
A psicrystal is always a wonderful thing to have (especially if your DM allows them to get feats for advancing hit dice, which I would argue is definitely RAW if maybe not RAI).

Of course, the always lovely psycristal. I don't know why I always forget about that feat. Also, it has HDs, inteligence and construct type, so feats aplenty. That said, I'm not sure about which of them are useful to me.

Quote
Scribe Tattoo and Psychic Tattoo Mastery are incredibly powerful options for any psionic character - if used right, they can pretty much make you immune to death and have an autoquickened power each round (there's a handbook around here that is definitely worth a read).

Found it. Sweet godness. WTF. The only problem is the lack of powers, but even then, it's workable.

Quote
Depending on how lenient your DM is in letting you swap mantle powers, Expanded Knowledge is excellent, as it is on any psionic character. Extend Power and Extend Spell are always nice to have, and can really help you through the mid-levels.

Those, i know about. EK[Schism] has been on my mind for a while. All of them were on my list of interesting feats.

Quote
Planar Touchstone: Catalogues of Enlightenment is good on Ur-priests.
Quote
If you can, purchase Iron Will through an Otyugh Hole (Complete Scoundrel, I think?) for 3000 gold, freeing up a feat to do something more useful with.
Mmmm... didn't know about it. Yes, it is in the Complete Scoundrel. Yes, it is delicious. Shall use.

Quote
What level are you starting at? This sort of build is going to be incredibly painful from about 4-9, and doesn't really come into its own until 11, so I would be hesitant to play it if you are starting before level 8 or so.
We are starting (and ending) at 15. So no worries there.

Well, thanks to both of you for the help. Mainly, the pointer on the tattoos. PhaedrusXY, congrats on writting the guide. I'll make full use of it.
[spoiler]
I hate mouth breathing fuckwits who go around spouting lies, even after being corrected on those lies, and that bait mods into helping to defend their wrongness and fail. I also hate the MBFs that don't understand the meaning of words, and that can't get a fucking clue.
Hey! I like spouting lies. It's very entertaining to observe how people on the internet are buffing their small egos by declaring victories over some stupid MBFs. :smirk
Also - I hate people who use too smart words that I don't understand. :mad

Hi Welcome

Go fuck yourself, because others won't do it for you.

Stop flirting you two.  :p
[/spoiler]

Etarran

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Re: Ur-Ardent
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2010, 12:12:41 AM »
If you end up going with a psicrystal, some feats for it that are worth looking into are Mindsight, from Lords of Madness, Lifesense from Libris Mortis, and, if you are using tattoos, Wild Talent can let your psicrystal also use tattoos (recharge them using bestow power, though be warned that without infinite power point shenanigans this will be costly in terms of power points per day). Also fun is Dark Speech and Dark Whispers, from Elder Evils, so your psicrystal can use its actions to drive your enemies mad.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Ur-Ardent
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2010, 12:27:24 AM »
Quote
Illumian Binder 1/Ardent 2/Anima Mage 10/Ur-Priest 1/Tenebrous Apostate 3/Bloodline 3

No! Bad PhaedrusXY! Bad! No reinterpreting classes!

No, seriously. My DM, while a great guy, when it comes to this kind of things, is a jerk. As he says, "You live by the rules, you die by the rules". He doesn't have problems adapting classes for the non optimizers in the group, but for the more "genre savvy" of us, he says that we can already do enough amazing and strange things, so we don't need a hand. By the way, that includes using Pyscraft for Spellcraft prerrequisites, even if we are using Psionic/Magic transparency. My DM says that even if magic and Psionics interact, the way you use them is too different to count them as a single skill.
If you can't use it with psionics, you could still go Binder 1/Ardent 4/Ur-Priest 1/Anima Mage 8/Tenebrous Apostate 1 with a bloodline. There is an official adaptation that lets you apply Anima Mage to divine casting. You'll miss out on some binding ability and the latter abilities of the Anima Mage (which is a damn shame...), but that's all. Tenebrous is even a dead god, so having an Ur-Priest worship him works fine per the official adaptation section on that class.

If it will cost you access to higher level spells, I don't think the bloodline stuff is worth it, though. What about Consumptive Field? Is that allowed? And Divine Metamagic? You could Persist Consumptive Field, and jack your CL up considerably using that.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2010, 12:29:33 AM by PhaedrusXY »
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]