Author Topic: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons  (Read 171760 times)

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JaronK

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #560 on: December 17, 2010, 11:15:42 PM »
Actually Dragon Magic was released after Races of The Dragon....
Races of the Dragon is January 2006 and Dragon Magic is September 2006......
I don't think it effects your argument though......

Holy crap, how did I miss that?  But you're right, it doesn't change much... except for indicating that Dragon Magic may have intended for Kobolds to be able to be on the other side of Dragon Pacts.  Not sure anyone cares one way or the other about that.  I was sure Dragon Magic was older than that though...

Though that's interesting, because that means that the Dragon Magic definition (True Dragons are any creature of the dragon type with 12 age categories) is actually not only the most recent, it was made with full knowledge that Kobolds could fit that definition.  At least, assuming the designers are remotely competent and reading related books, which is hardly a guarantee.

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #561 on: December 17, 2010, 11:16:06 PM »
The writers intent part of the argument giving them "everything they need" to meet a definition that hadn't been written yet.

Dragons of Kyrnn and Draconomicon were already out.  They still needed age categories, and to clearly get more powerful as they got older.  It just wasn't critical to give them the exact standard True Dragon age categories, as they did.  They could have just had Kobolds use a partial set instead or something.  

Also, it means that after Draconomicon, referencing those rules (I should hope they looked at it, it was the primary source on what they were writing), the writers of Dragon Magic decided "a creature of the dragon type with 12 age categories" was a correct definition of True Dragon. 

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« Last Edit: December 17, 2010, 11:25:53 PM by JaronK »

skydragonknight

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #562 on: December 17, 2010, 11:29:58 PM »
The only person who'd know the answer would be Andy Collins. There is otherwise no overlap between RotD and Dragon Magic on the design & development side.

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JaronK

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #563 on: December 17, 2010, 11:40:48 PM »
The only person who'd know the answer would be Andy Collins. There is otherwise no overlap between RotD and Dragon Magic on the design & development side.

Either way, the general point that Races of the Dragon did absolutely everything necessary to make Kobolds into True Dragons stands.  They needed official age categories (evidently at the time they didn't need 12, but gave them the exact True Dragon ones anyway), and they needed to get more powerful just by getting older (which was added in to the Dragonwrought feat, so it was given only to the Kobolds for whom it would really matter).  That seems VERY intentional.

But while I could buy that whoever wrote Dragonpacts hadn't read Races of the Dragon, I can't imagine they would be so incompetent as to not read the definition of True Dragon in Draconomicon.  So whatever designer that was, they summarized (and simplified) those rules as "a dragon with 12 age categories."  That works perfectly as a summary of Draconomicon if you take "advance through age categories" to mean "pass through age categories" as opposed to "Advancement: by Age" and assume that getting more powerful as you grow older is a given if you do that (which, it turns out for all dragon creatures with age categories, it is).  Otherwise, it makes no sense to summarize it that way, and would indicate a designer who didn't even bother to read that definition (possible, but pathetic.  Then again, somebody also wrote the genesis spell, and and somebody evidently wrote the summary of the Fighter class without reading the class he was summarizing, so it's definitely possible).

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snakeman830

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #564 on: December 18, 2010, 12:48:44 AM »
2nd that. Also DWK is never explicitly stated to be true dragon. It only explicitly receives a dragon type.
If it were, this topic would have never been discussed.

An interesting statistic:

In the Draconomicon, the word "advance" can be interpreted to construe the concept of gaining/higher HD, whether through RHD or class levels, 34 out of 44 times. For fairness, the "Advancement" sections were left out of this survey, which would have put the statistic somewhere around 50 of 60 (just guessing on that, but there's a lot of creatures in it).

The majority of the 10 uses that didn't fit this definition were found in fluff sections.
Which is all well and good, but if you recall, I didn't ask for useage of the word "advance", I asked for useage of the phrase "advance through".  That one additional word makes all the difference.
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BeholderSlayer

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #565 on: December 18, 2010, 12:52:25 AM »
Because it's completely and totally in every way irrelevant.  The reason why has been repeatedly stated (have you ignored it?  Or just forgotten why so fast?  You don't even check for "Lesser Dragon" status if you already are a True Dragon by the "more powerful" guideline).  Even if it wasn't, that's still 25% of the time where it doesn't mean what you want it to... and if it meant what you wanted it to, it would have contradictions.  So, you know, same old same old.
This is a faulty assumption.

Not at all... in fact that's where you've gone so wrong.  If you'll read the source material, it's quite clear.  First it says "True dragons are those creatures that become more powerful as they grow older."  Okay, so, like I said, check to see if it's a True Dragon at this point.  If it grows more powerful as it gets older, it's a true dragon.

Next, it says "Other creatures of the dragon type that do not advance through age categories are referred to as lesser dragons."  Note that "Other creatures" bit.  That means "creatures other than the type we just talked about, namely true dragons."  So the rest of that sentence only applies if the first qualifier turns out to be false and it's not a true dragon, but is still a dragon.

Here, I'll spell it out in programming terms, and see if that helps.

Code: [Select]
If(dragon is a creature that grows more powerful as it grows older)
  Then (True Dragon)
  Else (If (Dragon advances through age categories)
    Then (Lesser Dragon))

That's it, and that's exactly how it parses out.  You've been somehow missing that "Other" statement when parsing, and then gone back and said that being Lesser means you can't be true using the same "Other" statement you ignored on the first pass.

Here, let me give you another example of how this works.  If I say "employees who have marked parking spaces should park in those spaces.  Other employees who have bus passes should take the bus" that means any employee who has a marked parking space should park there, while those who do not but have bus passes should take the bus.  But what about an employee who has a marked parking space and has a bus pass?  What I've said there is that he should park in that space, because whether he has a pass or not is irrelevant.  And employees with neither a space nor a bus pass?  I haven't said anything about them at all.

JaronK

You've gone "so wrong" in assuming that "other" means that you check one first, then the other. This isn't programming. A computer cannot consider context. What you call "defining" lesser dragons is in fact an explanation and augmentation of the authors' definition of True Dragons. Each does not exist independently, they are in fact codependent while being mutually exclusive.

If it were meant to be read the way you claim, there would be a clear demarcation between the two, and the definitions would not address different issues. They would read "true dragons get more powerful as they age, lesser dragons do not."

However, this is not how it was written. Instead, it was written in such a way that each statement clarifies the meaning of the other. It was written such that "advance" means "to grow powerful" and "to grow powerful" means "advance." In this sense, they address the same issue and give meaning rather than being throwaway statements that many creatures can qualify for. Context. Each gives additional meaning to the other.

This point of view is further augmented by many quotes that come from the exact same book in which the definition is found.

Your point of view relies almost entirely on alternative sources where you pull one line from an entire book and use it as evidence.

Is there really a point to rules-lawyering "stat bonuses from age are getting more powerful, too!" when it's so blatantly obvious the writers are referring to the way dragons gain HD/size/SLAs/etc as they advance in age?

There only is when the idea that you might be wrong would entirely ruin your self image.

Which is all well and good, but if you recall, I didn't ask for useage of the word "advance", I asked for useage of the phrase "advance through".  That one additional word makes all the difference.

My apologies. So many demands for quotes and evidence, so little time.  :p

Hint: It doesn't really make any difference at all.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2010, 12:57:18 AM by BeholderSlayer »
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snakeman830

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #566 on: December 18, 2010, 01:02:26 AM »

Which is all well and good, but if you recall, I didn't ask for useage of the word "advance", I asked for useage of the phrase "advance through".  That one additional word makes all the difference.

My apologies. So many demands for quotes and evidence, so little time.  :p

Hint: It doesn't really make any difference at all.
It makes quite a bit of difference.  If "advance through" is not used to refer to gaining HD, then your argument is severely weakened.  Be aware that when referring to classes, gaining HD is a benefit of advancing through the class and not what is being refrenced itself.  Those exact words are also required: "advance by" means something completely distinct (the method by which you Advance).
« Last Edit: December 18, 2010, 01:04:12 AM by snakeman830 »
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JaronK

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #567 on: December 18, 2010, 01:04:39 AM »
It makes quite a bit of difference.  If "advance through" is not used to refer to gaining HD, then your argument is severely weakened.  Be aware that when referring to classes, gaining HD is a benefit of advancing through the class and not what is being refrenced itself.

More to the point, what Beholder is referring to is generally called "Advancement: by X" which is a completely different phrasing... and is a keyword in D&D.  It's like saying "Power attack" is the same thing as "powerful attacks."

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BeholderSlayer

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #568 on: December 18, 2010, 01:15:52 AM »

Which is all well and good, but if you recall, I didn't ask for useage of the word "advance", I asked for useage of the phrase "advance through".  That one additional word makes all the difference.

My apologies. So many demands for quotes and evidence, so little time.  :p

Hint: It doesn't really make any difference at all.
It makes quite a bit of difference.  If "advance through" is not used to refer to gaining HD, then your argument is severely weakened.  Be aware that when referring to classes, gaining HD is a benefit of advancing through the class and not what is being refrenced itself.  Those exact words are also required: "advance by" means something completely distinct (the method by which you Advance).
"By" and "through" can be synonyms. It is unimportant and no amount of evidence will ever change that they can be synonyms. All this line of reasoning will result in is looking for intent, and we all know what the intent is (at least I hope so).

It makes quite a bit of difference.  If "advance through" is not used to refer to gaining HD, then your argument is severely weakened.  Be aware that when referring to classes, gaining HD is a benefit of advancing through the class and not what is being refrenced itself.

More to the point, what Beholder is referring to is generally called "Advancement: by X" which is a completely different phrasing... and is a keyword in D&D.  It's like saying "Power attack" is the same thing as "powerful attacks."

JaronK
Or like saying "other" is without doubt the same as "else" in programming terms.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2010, 01:26:50 AM by BeholderSlayer »
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JaronK

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #569 on: December 18, 2010, 03:30:39 AM »
Contracting it down, it's EXTREMELY obvious.

"True dragons are those creatures that become more powerful as they grow older... Other creatures of the dragon type that do not advance through age categories are referred to as lesser dragons."

Now, here's some more examples of how this phrasing works in English.

"Students who got their permission slips in on time can go on the field trip on the first bus... other students who have presigned forms will go on the second bus."

"Great cats with spots are called leopards... other predators that have a high shrieking call are called hyenas."

"The largest sea mammals are whales... other sea mammals that eat fish are called dolphins or seals.

"Other" in this sort of context means "things which are different from the first group.  This is just basic English at this point.

Meanwhile, both "Advancement: By X" and "Power Attack" are defined terms in D&D with very specific meanings that are very different from similar phrasings of the same general words, such as "advance through" or "powerful attacks."  "Other" is not a specifically defined term in D&D, and has a standard English meaning.  Likewise, a search of the SRD shows it doesn't have any examples at all of "advance through" but "advance is used in the absolute standard English meanings of the word... all of them.  "Advancement: by" is a whole other issue, because it's a key word.

JaronK
« Last Edit: December 18, 2010, 04:34:49 AM by JaronK »

skydragonknight

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #570 on: December 18, 2010, 10:27:25 AM »
You believe advance through age categories is a descriptive definition (simply aging). I believe advance through age categories is a mechanical definition (going through the age category ranks under "Advancement").

You believe there are circumstances a definition (not description...definition) should be ignored. I believe there are no such times an actual definition should be ignored.

We are clearly at an impasse where neither side will budge an inch. I offer the neutral conclusion "there's enough room to interpret them as either" as a middle ground so we can bury this topic again. Is that fair?
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BeholderSlayer

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #571 on: December 18, 2010, 11:44:25 AM »
Contracting it down, it's EXTREMELY obvious.

What is obvious? Whatever it is you say is obvious apparently isn't so.

I say it *obviously* is meant to be that there is one definition, with what you call the definition of lesser dragons in fact being codependent on and augmented by what you call the definition of true dragons. I, in fact, believe there is one definition, the definition of the dividing point between true and lesser dragons. "More powerful" describes (not defines) true dragons. "Advances through" (gaining HD advance) defines "growing more powerful." This is supplemented by at least one quote in the very same book.

You say it *obviously* is meant that you check one, and if false, check the other. You say there are two definitions.

Basically, what it boils down to is that now we have officially stepped into the territory of intrepretation rather than RAW. I am certain you really don't mean to get into the rules as intended, because it is overwhelmingly obvious what the intent is.
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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #572 on: December 18, 2010, 11:50:14 AM »
Yes. One author intended for Kobolds to be able to become True Dragons, another author intended for True Dragons to get special abilities, and the two did not cross check.

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #573 on: December 18, 2010, 11:54:49 AM »
Yes. One author intended for Kobolds to be able to become True Dragons, another author intended for True Dragons to get special abilities, and the two did not cross check.
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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #574 on: December 18, 2010, 11:56:17 AM »
Poo to you with great knobs on top.

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #575 on: December 18, 2010, 01:47:51 PM »

Which is all well and good, but if you recall, I didn't ask for useage of the word "advance", I asked for useage of the phrase "advance through".  That one additional word makes all the difference.

My apologies. So many demands for quotes and evidence, so little time.  :p

Hint: It doesn't really make any difference at all.
It makes quite a bit of difference.  If "advance through" is not used to refer to gaining HD, then your argument is severely weakened.  Be aware that when referring to classes, gaining HD is a benefit of advancing through the class and not what is being refrenced itself.  Those exact words are also required: "advance by" means something completely distinct (the method by which you Advance).
"By" and "through" can be synonyms. It is unimportant and no amount of evidence will ever change that they can be synonyms. All this line of reasoning will result in is looking for intent, and we all know what the intent is (at least I hope so).
Wrong again.  What I am claiming is that there is precedence that "advance through" simply means to pass through in order.  If you cannot locate a quote where the exact "advance through" language refers to gaining HD, then you have no precedence for your argument.  When we have multiple, equally valid readings of a statement, we turn to precedence for which is to be used.  If we have precedence for both readings, only THEN do we turn to RAI (which I have to agree with Solo on, DWK's were intended to be True Dragons because at the time where wouldn't be any balance issues  Whoever wrote Dragons of Eberron did not pay attention to this).
« Last Edit: December 18, 2010, 01:50:25 PM by snakeman830 »
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BeholderSlayer

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #576 on: December 18, 2010, 02:02:10 PM »

Which is all well and good, but if you recall, I didn't ask for useage of the word "advance", I asked for useage of the phrase "advance through".  That one additional word makes all the difference.

My apologies. So many demands for quotes and evidence, so little time.  :p

Hint: It doesn't really make any difference at all.
It makes quite a bit of difference.  If "advance through" is not used to refer to gaining HD, then your argument is severely weakened.  Be aware that when referring to classes, gaining HD is a benefit of advancing through the class and not what is being refrenced itself.  Those exact words are also required: "advance by" means something completely distinct (the method by which you Advance).
"By" and "through" can be synonyms. It is unimportant and no amount of evidence will ever change that they can be synonyms. All this line of reasoning will result in is looking for intent, and we all know what the intent is (at least I hope so).
Wrong again.  What I am claiming is that there is precedence that "advance through" simply means to pass through in order.  If you cannot locate a quote where the exact "advance through" language refers to gaining HD, then you have no precedence for your argument.  When we have multiple, equally valid readings of a statement, we turn to precedence for which is to be used.  If we have precedence for both readings, only THEN do we turn to RAI (which I have to agree with Solo on, DWK's were intended to be True Dragons because at the time where wouldn't be any balance issues  Whoever wrote Dragons of Eberron did not pay attention to this).
1. Historical precedence is not a formal rule for RAW adjudication, that's something that you made up. The only precedence rules for RAW adjudication are primary trumps secondary, specific trumps general, and monster entries trump monster rules text. Also, it is only your opinion that "advance through" is the criteria. "By" and "through" are synonymous. You are changing the goalposts.
2. Solo is almost invariably sarcastic, though I can't speak for sure in this circumstance.
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snakeman830

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #577 on: December 18, 2010, 02:12:11 PM »
I have not changed the goalposts whatsoever.  My stance has always been clear and consistent and I have not yet changed my sources other than to add even more.

There is no official statement regarding which definition of "through" is being used, so it stands to reason that the most commonly used definition is the one most likely used here.  Precedence is incredibly important in a discussion such as this.  Is it garunteed?  No.  However, if "advance through" is never elsewhere used to refer to gaining HD, then it is extremely difficult to justify the view that it does in this one location, especially when there is another, perfectly valid reasoning which matches precedence.
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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #578 on: December 18, 2010, 02:25:23 PM »
Yes. One author intended for Kobolds to be able to become True Dragons, another author intended for True Dragons to get special abilities, and the two did not cross check.

I prefer the idea that the developer knew that the Dragonwrought Kobold feat would give Kobolds arguable true dragonhood. So that there would be plenty of fun with arguments about whether this is true or not, to emulate what the actual Kobold would be doing to other characters in the game.

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #579 on: December 18, 2010, 04:10:25 PM »
You believe advance through age categories is a descriptive definition (simply aging). I believe advance through age categories is a mechanical definition (going through the age category ranks under "Advancement").

I don't believe it's relevant in any way shape or form, because it STILL doesn't come up, due to the basic English meaning of what's written.  And your interpretation leads to silly contradictions, therefor it's incorrect.  Sometimes in this game things can be totally up for interpretation (like the duration of the Dread Necromancer's fear aura effect).  But sometimes the rules are written in such a way that there is a correct interpretation, and since I've yet to see a valid interpretation based on the idea that "advance through" has a special meaning here despite the fact that it's never used as a keyword (like "Advancement") and that it somehow overrides the fact that it's only talking about dragons "Other" than dragons made True by the earlier sentence.

Quote
You believe there are circumstances a definition (not description...definition) should be ignored. I believe there are no such times an actual definition should be ignored.

The only one's I've "ignored" are the ones that would eliminate known True Dragons themselves and explicitly state they're talking about only a subset of True Dragons (note that Draconomicon states in that same page 4 section that it's mostly just talking about the 10 True Dragons in the MM, while the MM says it's only talking about "known" true Dragons and makes it clear it means the ones it's about to state when it says they're all metallic or chromatic).  That's not ignoring, that's reading in context.

And yet people are so happy to ignore "a dragon with 12 age categories" despite the fact that Dragon Magic has no such "known" or "the 10 True Dragons in the MM" qualifier.

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Yes. One author intended for Kobolds to be able to become True Dragons, another author intended for True Dragons to get special abilities, and the two did not cross check.

Exactly.  Most likely it was yet another who made the online supplement with the Greater Draconic Rite as well.  Each designer looked at Kobolds and said "man, these are unplayably weak, I'll fix them with a power up" without checking to see what the others were doing, while another said the same thing about True Dragons, and yet another decided to make Kobolds count as True Dragons because it fit the fluff he was writing so well, and suddenly all those power ups applied to the same race and Kobolds became gods.  It's a good lesson on the dangers of large games with many designers.

JaronK
« Last Edit: December 18, 2010, 04:44:39 PM by JaronK »