Author Topic: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons  (Read 171426 times)

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Kajhera

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #340 on: December 14, 2010, 09:27:59 PM »
Now, I'm not an expert on this; but what's the exception to this definition here?
He'll argue that some dragons are not over 100 feet in length when they are a great wyrm.

The flaw is this logic is inherent in the wording, "range in size" means a dragon can be anywhere from "several feet" to "over 100 feet." It does not mean that the dragon MUST be over 100 feet when it reaches great wyrm status.

Basically, he just reads everything the way he wants to and ignores common sense.
Full definition, for context on the sizes, which indeed can vary, and the line I'd like to point out:

'All true dragons gain more abilities and greater power (We've appeared to have established this part) as they age. (Other creatures that have the dragon type do not.) They range in length from several feet upon hatching to more than 100 feet after attaining the status of great wyrm. The size of a particular dragon varies according to age and variety. This sentence gives white dragons and kobolds an escape clause.I'm pretty sure kobolds can do this, though I don't remember where I read it.This paragraph is pure fluff.

All dragons speak Draconic. Certainly true of kobolds.'
« Last Edit: December 14, 2010, 09:32:53 PM by Kajhera »

Solo

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #341 on: December 14, 2010, 09:31:30 PM »
What would make someone more able to influence the world around him?
Well, the first guy can resist the Hold Person effect more than the second guy 1 extra time out of 20.
And having more charisma would mean that you could influence the people around you more... and thereby influence the world around you.

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The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.

Kajhera

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #342 on: December 14, 2010, 09:35:09 PM »
I agree that gaining ability score boosts is increasing in power. You've convinced me.

Is gaining ability score boosts actually gaining abilities? (I am aware this sounds slightly silly, but bear with me.)

Solo

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #343 on: December 14, 2010, 09:36:48 PM »
Might be expanding on abilities you already had.

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.

Bozwevial

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #344 on: December 14, 2010, 09:39:12 PM »
I agree that gaining ability score boosts is increasing in power. You've convinced me.

Is gaining ability score boosts actually gaining abilities? (I am aware this sounds slightly silly, but bear with me.)
Ability scores serve as prerequisites for feats and casting spells of certain levels. Also, if there's an ability check with a DC of 21, (barring any other modifiers) only someone with at least a +1 modifier in the relevant score has the ability to succeed, however unlikely.

EjoThims

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #345 on: December 14, 2010, 09:42:14 PM »
I can save you some time.

Ah, thank you. I can see it is, as the MM is, just an explanation of a True Dragon's stat block, not a definition of what constitutes a True Dragon. It is not presented as "To be a True Dragon you must have this" but rather as "If you are a True Dragon, you have this."

But, of course, we know that not to be true anyway, as not all True Dragons are noted in the MM. Draconomicon even has it's own list of officially recognized True Dragons not noted in the MM up to the point of it's printing. ;) If it were to actually be a restriction, no True Dragons not listed in the MM would get those abilities.

But, I'm going to bow out of this... Seems that mostly what I have to input is being touched on by others and I just can't keep up with this while working 12 hours shifts...  :lol :lol Especially since over a half dozen responses were posted while I typed this. lol

bearsarebrown

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #346 on: December 14, 2010, 09:43:02 PM »
The flaw is this logic is inherent in the wording, "range in size" means a dragon can be anywhere from "several feet" to "over 100 feet." It does not mean that the dragon MUST be over 100 feet when it reaches great wyrm status.
If that's what it means then it's not a definition and we can ignore it. Either way the quote can be thrown out.

Kajhera

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #347 on: December 14, 2010, 09:43:46 PM »
Abilities, at least of the racial variety which matters here, come in four categories.

*Natural Abilities
*Extraordinary Abilities
*Spell-Like Abilities
*Supernatural Abilities

Aging seems ... unlikely to be one of the three special ability categories; correct me if I'm wrong here.

That leaves natural abilities.

Natural abilities are defined as follows:

'This category includes abilities a creature has because of its physical nature. Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like.'

The mental boosts from aging are not due to a creature's physical nature. If they are abilities, they are natural abilities, though.

Abilities in D&D, and ability scores in D&D, strike me as separate entities.

Kajhera

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #348 on: December 14, 2010, 09:44:55 PM »
The flaw is this logic is inherent in the wording, "range in size" means a dragon can be anywhere from "several feet" to "over 100 feet." It does not mean that the dragon MUST be over 100 feet when it reaches great wyrm status.
If that's what it means then it's not a definition and we can ignore it. Either way the quote can be thrown out.

... How, precisely, does the fact many dragons range in size being noted in a definition, invalidate the rest of it?  ???

bearsarebrown

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #349 on: December 14, 2010, 09:45:54 PM »
... How, precisely, does the fact many dragons range in size being noted in a definition, invalidate the rest of it?  ???
It invalidates specifically the note about sizes. Nothing else.

Kajhera

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #350 on: December 14, 2010, 09:47:22 PM »
... How, precisely, does the fact many dragons range in size being noted in a definition, invalidate the rest of it?  ???
It invalidates specifically the note about sizes. Nothing else.
Ah, okay, yeah.

skydragonknight

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #351 on: December 14, 2010, 10:27:04 PM »
As for "Ability" Oxford:
1 [singular] ability to do something
the fact that somebody/something is able to do something

Gaining "an ability" is gaining the the fact that you're able to do something. Gaining an ability from aging is being able to do something just because you're older.

Gaining ability scores only improves your existing abilities, and potentially allows you to qualify to do more things, although those new abilities you now qualify for do not come specifically from aging like the new abilities of dragons: the come from class features, feats, etc.
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

Kajhera

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #352 on: December 14, 2010, 10:34:09 PM »
As for "Ability" Oxford:
1 [singular] ability to do something
the fact that somebody/something is able to do something

Gaining "an ability" is gaining the the fact that you're able to do something. Gaining an ability from aging is being able to do something just because you're older.

Gaining ability scores only improves your existing abilities, and potentially allows you to qualify to do more things, although those new abilities you now qualify for do not come specifically from aging like the new abilities of dragons: the come from class features, feats, etc.

So, ah... dragonwrought kobolds don't qualify, then?  ??? I reading ya right?

skydragonknight

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #353 on: December 14, 2010, 10:45:03 PM »
Unless I get a better rebuttal than "That's a definition I don't like so I dismiss it", then yes.

I can't argue that dragonwrought kobolds get more power as they age...even a +1 modifier may qualify as a (slight) increase in power. But gaining an ability simply through aging is not something on their list of tricks, unless I'm reading it wrong.
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

Kajhera

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #354 on: December 14, 2010, 10:52:21 PM »
Unless I get a better rebuttal than "That's a definition I don't like so I dismiss it", then yes.

I can't argue that dragonwrought kobolds get more power as they age...even a +1 modifier may qualify as a (slight) increase in power. But gaining an ability simply through aging is not something on their list of tricks, unless I'm reading it wrong.

Even if you go with the D&D definitions of abilities I think your point still stands.

BeholderSlayer

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #355 on: December 14, 2010, 10:58:12 PM »
The flaw is this logic is inherent in the wording, "range in size" means a dragon can be anywhere from "several feet" to "over 100 feet." It does not mean that the dragon MUST be over 100 feet when it reaches great wyrm status.
If that's what it means then it's not a definition and we can ignore it. Either way the quote can be thrown out.
I never claimed it was a definition, I was just pointing out that the original logic applied to the statement was flawed.
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JaronK

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #356 on: December 14, 2010, 11:03:54 PM »
Hi Welcome

No matter how much you say this, it still won't be an argument.

Quote
Quote from: JaronK
Rambling Wall of Bitterness

This is your amazing response to the fact that you ignore anything that contradicts you?  Well played sir, I couldn't have said it better.

Quote
- didn't incorporate the part that is inaccurate (you didn't read what I said, again)

I always read what you say.  But you change what you say on a regular basis, from claiming to be basing your opinion on the dictionary, to implying you only meant the Oxford dictionary, to stating that the dictionary definition wasn't sufficient.  So, which of your contradictory points are you now referring to?

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- you ignore evidence that runs counter to your claims

That would be you.  For example, ignoring the part where D&D defines what being "more powerful" means.  But feel free to point out what I'm ignoring that's actually counter to my claim.

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- my argument has always been that "growing more powerful" and "advancing through age categories" means the same thing, but again, you're not really reading anything

Except that that's not established anywhere in the rules.  To be "more powerful" in D&D includes simply having higher stats (see the section on point buy, previously quoted earlier, that you earlier ignored).  Advancing through age categories does not mean this (and I suspect what you actually mean is "Advancement: By Age" which is an entirely different thing).  So, you have now established that your argument has always been a faulty claim, even when given direct evidence against it.

Quote
- yourself and TML quote rules out of context all the time and claim they create definitions out of thin air, pot meet kettle

If we do it all the time, then surely you can show a few examples.  Should be trivial, right?

JaronK

Havok4

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #357 on: December 14, 2010, 11:11:10 PM »

I can't argue that dragonwrought kobolds get more power as they age...even a +1 modifier may qualify as a (slight) increase in power. But gaining an ability simply through aging is not something on their list of tricks, unless I'm reading it wrong.

I think the issue that will come up is that a under certain circumstances the DWK can get more abilities due to that ability increase or though effects that rely on age category (some dragon specific feats rely on this like wingstorm(Drac)) could affect them even if they do not those feats or spellcasting. Otherwise really strict adherence to that true dragon definition could mean that a great wyrm dragon is not a true dragon anymore as it will no longer get new abilities as it ages.

Kajhera

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #358 on: December 14, 2010, 11:13:25 PM »

I can't argue that dragonwrought kobolds get more power as they age...even a +1 modifier may qualify as a (slight) increase in power. But gaining an ability simply through aging is not something on their list of tricks, unless I'm reading it wrong.

I think the issue that will come up is that a under certain circumstances the DWK can get more abilities due to that ability increase or though effects that rely on age category (some dragon specific feats rely on this like wingstorm(Drac)) could affect them even if they do not those feats or spellcasting. Otherwise really strict adherence to that true dragon definition could mean that a great wyrm dragon is not a true dragon anymore as it will no longer get new abilities as it ages.

If you have 12 intelligence, and get +1, and qualify for Combat Expertise, you did not gain a feat.

Don't dragons continue to gain virtual age categories, and abilities with them?

Nachofan99

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #359 on: December 14, 2010, 11:14:14 PM »
Havok is on the ball.  Sometimes known true dragons "age" but don't get new abilities.  Now that known true dragons have potentially invalidated themselves, maybe it's time for someone to just acknowledge DWKs as true dragons with any definitions or rule sets that are not so strict as to exclude even known true dragons.