Author Topic: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons  (Read 171408 times)

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BeholderSlayer

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #280 on: December 14, 2010, 02:11:01 PM »
A Prc that requires "ability to cast third level spells" cannot be entered by a wizard20 with an int of 12
True, and that's because there are 2 (typically) requirements that must be met to qualify for the "ability to cast spells of a level X," discounting precocious apprentice (which is debatable, but i don't want to get into that) and a few other tricks. DWK do not fulfill the requirements of gaining the ability to cast spells by simple ability boosts (and neither does anybody else).
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snakeman830

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #281 on: December 14, 2010, 02:11:23 PM »
You seem to be ignoring what I said.  Try reading my statements before thinking you know what I'm saying.

As I demonstrated, you can gain power without gaining abilities and vice-versa  All that that sentence says is that you must do both as you age while being a Dragon to be a True Dragon.  It does not say that they must come from different places.
It doesn't say they can come from different places, either, and the ELH ties dragon power to increasing in age.
Correct.  The increase in ability scores is a direct result of increasing age.  The increased ability scores allow the DWK to do more things, not just the same things better.

Quote
And yes, if you don't have a casting stat high enough, you cannot cast those spells.  In my example, the Kobold was unable to cast 2nd level spells until he got older and more charismatic.  Thus the "ability to cast level X spells" requires you both to be a high enough level in your class and to have a primary casting stat of at least 10+X.  If you don't believe me, this is spelled out in every single vanican spellcasting class entry.
So getting into a PrC requiring "ability to cast 3rd level spells" and nothing else is possible at level 1 by a character with 13 charisma?
Bolded for emphasis.  Do you know what the word "both" means?  It means the two parts are required simultaneously.  You seriously fucked things up trying to get me on that.

Increased ability scores give more options aka abilities.  Using those higher ability scores, you can do numerous other things.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2010, 02:17:05 PM by snakeman830 »
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BeholderSlayer

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #282 on: December 14, 2010, 02:14:33 PM »
You seem to be ignoring what I said.  Try reading my statements before thinking you know what I'm saying.

As I demonstrated, you can gain power without gaining abilities and vice-versa  All that that sentence says is that you must do both as you age while being a Dragon to be a True Dragon.  It does not say that they must come from different places.
It doesn't say they can come from different places, either, and the ELH ties dragon power to increasing in age.
Correct.  The increase in ability scores is a direct result of increasing age.  The increased ability scores allow the DWK to do more things, not just the same things better.

Quote
And yes, if you don't have a casting stat high enough, you cannot cast those spells.  In my example, the Kobold was unable to cast 2nd level spells until he got older and more charismatic.  Thus the "ability to cast level X spells" requires you both to be a high enough level in your class and to have a primary casting stat of at least 10+X.  If you don't believe me, this is spelled out in every single vanican spellcasting class entry.
So getting into a PrC requiring "ability to cast 3rd level spells" and nothing else is possible at level 1 by a character with 13 charisma?
Bolded for emphasis.  Do you know what the word "both" means?  It means the two parts are required simultaneously.  You seriously fucked things up trying to get me on that.
Just bolding "both" doesn't mean anything. You don't actually gain the ability by aging. You seriously fucked things up by making this claim.  :looloo

Are you saying that a DWK sorcerer 4 with a starting charisma of 11 that gains a +1 for aging is a true dragon, but a DWK sorcerer 1 with 18 charisma that gains +3 from aging is not?
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #283 on: December 14, 2010, 02:19:01 PM »
So, wait, are you treating the monster manual as the primary source, and not the draconomicon?
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snakeman830

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #284 on: December 14, 2010, 02:20:35 PM »
You do not have the ability to cast 2nd level spells until you have BOTH the appropriate class level (4 for Sorcerers) AND a casting stat of 12.  Therefore, when your casting stat goes from 11 to 12, you GAIN the ability to cast 2nd level spells: an ability you lacked before.

My point is that gaining ability score increases gives new abilities.  Granted, not every single increase will really give you new options, but it does give new abilities in general.

Besides, that Sorcerer with 18 Cha and then ages more gains part of the ability to cast 9th level spells (still needs the appropriate class level, however).
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #285 on: December 14, 2010, 02:22:27 PM »
At the very least, the Wis boost will increase will saves.

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BeholderSlayer

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #286 on: December 14, 2010, 02:24:15 PM »
*snip*
Besides, that Sorcerer with 18 Cha and then ages more gains part of the ability to cast 9th level spells (still needs the appropriate class level, however).
Then, in fact, you did not gain the ability. It's very simple. You gained half of the requirements for the ability, but did you did not gain the ability.
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #287 on: December 14, 2010, 02:24:52 PM »
Does a great wyrm dragon who ages gain more abilities?

Heck, the dragon PC progressions can sometimes give you a +1 LA for NO BENEFIT as you age.

Quote
: When the dragon reaches the specified age, the next level the character attains must be used to advance its dragon level. When this occurs, its level adjustment increases (and its ECL rises accordingly) but the character receives no other benefits.
So PC red/white/blue/purple/gold/silver dragons aren't "true dragons" by your definition. 
« Last Edit: December 14, 2010, 02:27:34 PM by The_Mad_Linguist »
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snakeman830

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #288 on: December 14, 2010, 02:25:27 PM »
Granted, not every single increase will really give you new options, but it does give new abilities in general.
Already had that coverd, Beholder.  Care to move the goalposts again?
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

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By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
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Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
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If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

Nachofan99

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #289 on: December 14, 2010, 02:27:08 PM »
The Monster Manual lists kobolds as reptilian humanoids.

The Races of the Dragon added dragonblood subtype, an obvious change to existing rules, the context of which cannot be ignored.

The Races of the Dragon also gives all kobolds 12 age categories, again, an obvious change to existing rules.

The Races of the Dragon also goes out of its way to tell you venerable dragonwrought kobolds don't take age penalties; i.e. they get more powerful as they age.  By gaining higher mental stats, you also gain a new ability - taking feats that require higher mental stats as pre-requisites.

The rule changes to kobolds from Monster Manual to Races of the Dragon makes it overwhelmingly obvious that regular kobolds are lesser dragons and dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons.  Dragonwrought kobolds get more powerful as they age period.

If anything, Races of the Dragon is the new "primary source" for Kobold rules.  Dragonwrought Kobolds are overwhelmingly the specific exception to all rules of sense or decency because Races of the Dragon made them true dragons.

skydragonknight

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #290 on: December 14, 2010, 02:27:52 PM »
So a Pseudodragon with 15 Druid levels is a "true dragon" since it has the dragon type and gains "greater power and abilities with age"? Although Pseudodragons are specifically on the "lesser dragon" list, which is a contradiction.

And what about a changeling with racial immersion: kobold? Can they take the dragonwrought feat? If so, are they true dragons?

Does a great wyrm dragon who ages gain more abilities?

Epic Level Handbook for that ^_^

A Venerable Kobold. however, does NOT gain new abilities or power for aging, though, and would thus no longer be a true dragon at that point using that definition.
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skydragonknight

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #291 on: December 14, 2010, 02:29:27 PM »
The rule changes to kobolds from Monster Manual to Races of the Dragon makes it overwhelmingly obvious that regular kobolds are lesser dragons and dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons.  Dragonwrought kobolds get more powerful as they age period.

So how is a regular kobold, who doesn't even have the dragon type, a lesser dragon?
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BeholderSlayer

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #292 on: December 14, 2010, 02:31:10 PM »
Granted, not every single increase will really give you new options, but it does give new abilities in general.
Already had that coverd, Beholder.  Care to move the goalposts again?
I'm not moving the goalposts, you are. You have created an imaginary meaning for "ability" that does not exist. I am actually trying to pull you back out of imagination land, but you insist on staying out there.

 :shrug
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BeholderSlayer

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #293 on: December 14, 2010, 02:33:12 PM »
So PC red/white/blue/purple/gold/silver dragons aren't "true dragons" by your definition.  
book, page number, section, something....it's common courtesy, man

I don't think that means what you think it means.
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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #294 on: December 14, 2010, 02:36:23 PM »
Is someone who has +1 to will saves over someone else who is in all other aspects identical more powerful, by a strict definition of powerful?

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #295 on: December 14, 2010, 02:37:08 PM »
EDIT:
Screw it.  The goalposts are well past Alpha Centauri at this point.  

BS is never going to make a consistent set of arguments.  I'm through with this thread.
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BeholderSlayer

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #296 on: December 14, 2010, 02:43:18 PM »
So, wait, are you treating the monster manual as the primary source, and not the draconomicon?
If everybody else has decided that RotD and DoK are valid sources, surely the MM is a valid source that can be used for "augmentation."
BS is never going to make a consistent set of arguments.  I'm through with this thread.
Speak for yourself.  :banghead
« Last Edit: December 14, 2010, 02:45:17 PM by BeholderSlayer »
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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #297 on: December 14, 2010, 02:44:39 PM »
EDIT:
Screw it.  The goalposts are well past Alpha Centauri at this point.  

BS is never going to make a consistent set of arguments.  I'm through with this thread.

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skydragonknight

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #298 on: December 14, 2010, 02:45:53 PM »
New find:

Races of the Dragon Page 47, under "Kobolds and Other Races"

Quote
True Dragons: The body and soul of any kobold is
dedicated to dragons, whether literally or fi guratively.
Kobolds search for the dragon in themselves, and they
pledge themselves to the dragon in their rites of passage.
In the presence of an actual dragon, kobolds are servile,
doing anything required of them.
Kobolds see dragons as
older and wiser kin and cultural heroes. Kurtulmak is the
kobold deity, but dragons represent a tangible glory that
Kurtulmak cannot provide.

1. By context, Actual Dragon = True Dragon
Also by context, Kobolds aren't Actual Dragons.
Therefore, Kobolds aren't true Dragons.

Also note that this in Other Races, As in non-Kobold races. True Dragons wouldn't be here is Kobolds (or even Dragonwrought Kobolds, since they're described in the same chapter) were True Dragons.

(This is my first DWK argument, so I apologize if this is already well known)
« Last Edit: December 14, 2010, 02:51:33 PM by skydragonknight »
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Nachofan99

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #299 on: December 14, 2010, 02:48:03 PM »
Kobolds have the dragonblood subtype.  What I meant to say regarding regular kobolds is that they are for all intents and purposes *treated* as dragons whenever race comes into play (pg. 39 Races of the Dragon).  My bad.  Typo! Sorry.  Jesus Christ.

DWK are dragon type.  They lose the dragonblood subtype.  You're not *treated* as a dragon, you are one.  You have age categories.  You get more powerful as you age.  What are dragons that have age categories and get more powerful as they age?  True Dragons comes to mind, because it's pretty explicit that lesser dragons DON'T do that.

Tying this into 15 level druid psuedragons.

About 15 levels of Druid Psuedodragons; I see absolutely no problem with this at all.  15 levels of druid *might* grant you a new power or game ability; the ability to get more powerful simply by aging, *maybe*.  Depending on when you age and when you get 15 levels of druid, you *might* get more powerful as you age, *maybe*.  Timeless body does not *automatically* grant you more stats, or even bring back lost stats.

What that means is, not all druid 15 psuedodragons get more powerful as they age.  When I look at MM 210-211 I don't see any age categories for it.  Where are psuedodragon age categories located?

Kobolds *without* DWK feat aren't true dragons.  They had to get a Feat to even start this discussion.  Character advancement can make new things happen, or make you qualify for new feats/classes/options etc.  What is shiny and new about that to anyone on these boards?


Also, pg. 4 of Races of the Dragons takes care of all "half-dragon" shenanigans. It specifically calls out half-dragon and draconic template as narrow cases.  That means they are specific exceptions.