Author Topic: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons  (Read 171411 times)

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JaronK

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #220 on: December 13, 2010, 09:31:55 PM »
Appeal to consistency?  That's not even a fallacy.

Your argument requires throwing out RAW repeatedly (Dragon Magic, Dragons of Kyrnn, and the first half of the Draconomicon definition) in favor of taking only the other half of the Draconomicon definition under a specific interpretation that, as TML has shown, really isn't required.  And you keep claiming that your justification is that only the primary source matters (not true, since specificity allows secondary sources to trump, which is why we have more than 11 base classes despite what the DMG says)... while ignoring what's said in that same primary source.  For example, Dragon Magic is the only place to mention 12 age categories as a requirement, so that's in.

In the end, this debate is "what does RAW say?"  If your interpretation requires throwing out the majority of RAW to get there, you're just flat out wrong.  Especially when there's no need to do so... just use advance as it's generally used in text form (note how it's used differently in text than in tables... in tables you get "Advancement" which means "the method by which the creature usually gains HD" but in text you get "advances" which means the same thing as the common English usage).

You're just using "advances" incorrectly, pretending it's a text "Advancement" entry, when it's clearly not.  That interpretation requires throwing out most of RAW.

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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #221 on: December 13, 2010, 09:34:41 PM »
Beholder, where does it say that true dragons must "advance through age categories"?  I see where it says lesser dragons do not, but lesser dragons are already as subset of "creatures that are not true dragons".


Also, what book would you consider to be the "primary source" for the "summon undead" spell?
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JaronK

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #222 on: December 13, 2010, 09:36:15 PM »
"Power is a measure of an entity's ability to control their environment, including the behavior of other entities." - philosophical definition of power, from wikipedia.  This works for all the listed D&D examples so far.  Mirriam Webster's works too: "ability to act or produce an effect."  Of course, a +3 increase to a casting stat, as well as a bonus to Diplomacy, Intimidate, and UMD obviously fit both definitions as well.

But I want to know what Beholder meant.  He claimed there was a "strict definition of power" and I'd like to see if there's any way that wasn't just completely invented right on the spot.

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #223 on: December 13, 2010, 09:39:42 PM »
"Power is a measure of an entity's ability to control their environment, including the behavior of other entities." - philosophical definition of power, from wikipedia.  This works for all the listed D&D examples so far.  Mirriam Webster's works too: "ability to act or produce an effect."  Of course, a +3 increase to a casting stat, as well as a bonus to Diplomacy, Intimidate, and UMD obviously fit both definitions as well.

But I want to know what Beholder meant.  He claimed there was a "strict definition of power" and I'd like to see if there's any way that wasn't just completely invented right on the spot.

JaronK
So now Oxford isn't good enough when it doesn't give you what you want?????

Pardon me while I  :lmao
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #224 on: December 13, 2010, 09:40:34 PM »
So in other words you were lying when you said "strict definition".  Gotcha.
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BeholderSlayer

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #225 on: December 13, 2010, 09:41:39 PM »
So in other words you were lying when you said "strict definition".  Gotcha.
Pardon me for going to YOUR source out of good will.  :lmao :lmao :lmao
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JaronK

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #226 on: December 13, 2010, 09:43:42 PM »
So now Oxford isn't good enough when it doesn't give you what you want?????

Pardon me while I  :lmao

Of course it is.  I'm not the one who ignores what I don't like.  Here's Oxford's definition of power:

"the capacity or ability to direct or influence the behavior of others or the course of events"  And, yeah, that works just fine.  Can you find any other definition from Oxford that actually matches how D&D uses the word?  Evidently you did not go to his source, good will or otherwise.

Do I really have to quote from every single dictionary out there?  Are you about to accuse me of thinking Encyclopedia Brittanica isn't good enough because I haven't quoted that one yet?

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Kajhera

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #227 on: December 13, 2010, 09:51:45 PM »
As evidenced by power being synonymous with experience points in item creation, you can indeed gain power without it having a direct correlation on your ability to direct or influence the behavior of others or the course of events. Therefore, the Oxford definition is not strict enough.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #228 on: December 13, 2010, 09:53:11 PM »
Power is also associated with race (see: DMG 111)
Quote
2 If the creature is exceptionally powerful, reduce its class level to balance.
Note that whether or not a creature is deemed exceptionally powerful has no correlation with HD.
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snakeman830

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #229 on: December 13, 2010, 09:53:47 PM »
If you didn't go up a level, that xp you gained can go into making somehing or allowing you to cast, say Wish.  Still fits Oxford.
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #230 on: December 13, 2010, 09:57:12 PM »
Oh, and here's proof that higher ability scores make you more powerful:

Quote from: DMG 170
Note that standard point buy is 25 points. 
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BeholderSlayer

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #231 on: December 13, 2010, 09:58:33 PM »
Appeal to consistency?  That's not even a fallacy.

Your argument requires throwing out RAW repeatedly (Dragon Magic, Dragons of Kyrnn, and the first half of the Draconomicon definition) in favor of taking only the other half of the Draconomicon definition under a specific interpretation that, as TML has shown, really isn't required.  And you keep claiming that your justification is that only the primary source matters (not true, since specificity allows secondary sources to trump, which is why we have more than 11 base classes despite what the DMG says)... while ignoring what's said in that same primary source.  For example, Dragon Magic is the only place to mention 12 age categories as a requirement, so that's in.

In the end, this debate is "what does RAW say?"  If your interpretation requires throwing out the majority of RAW to get there, you're just flat out wrong.  Especially when there's no need to do so... just use advance as it's generally used in text form (note how it's used differently in text than in tables... in tables you get "Advancement" which means "the method by which the creature usually gains HD" but in text you get "advances" which means the same thing as the common English usage).

You're just using "advances" incorrectly, pretending it's a text "Advancement" entry, when it's clearly not.  That interpretation requires throwing out most of RAW.

JaronK
Pretty much none of this is true (the DMG isn't the primary source on classes, the PHB never says that there are only 11 classes, etc). I'm not ignoring what's said in the primary source (as True dragons advance in HD, they become more powerful). Specificity gets the 12 age categories in (maybe), but doesn't get merely having them to qualify (advancing in HD through age is more specific than simply progressing in age), you assume that advances means what you want it to mean despite every True Dragon advancement entry ever written.

My argument is that YOU are using "advances" incorrectly. Merely stating it is so reminds me of this:


Additionally, if Dragon Magic or DoK (secondary sources) were meant to update the primary source (the Draconomicon) it would be explicitly stated as such. That is also RAW.

RAW already allows for certain rules texts to be thrown out entirely when they do not agree with the primary source. Your antithesis to the concept that certain rules statements may just be flat out WRONG is hilarious.

Also, appeal to consistency IS a fallacy. Try googling a little harder. Or a philosophy class.
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JaronK

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #232 on: December 13, 2010, 10:01:16 PM »
Nice, TML.  Right on point.  There we have an actual D&D usage of the word that indicates higher stats alone constitute being more powerful.

I still want to know what the heck Beholder was claiming as this "strict definition."  

Quote from: Kajhera
As evidenced by power being synonymous with experience points in item creation, you can indeed gain power without it having a direct correlation on your ability to direct or influence the behavior of others or the course of events. Therefore, the Oxford definition is not strict enough.

No, if you gain experience points you gain the ability to make more magic items.  That increases your ability to influence events.  You'd also have more ability to cast exp costed spells.

But since that Oxford definition still fits the stat boost too, that can't be what Beholder meant.  So what was it Beholder?  Were you just making that up?  Did you make a mistake?  Or did you actually have something?

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #233 on: December 13, 2010, 10:01:51 PM »
So now Oxford isn't good enough when it doesn't give you what you want?????

Pardon me while I  :lmao

Of course it is.  I'm not the one who ignores what I don't like.  Here's Oxford's definition of power:

"the capacity or ability to direct or influence the behavior of others or the course of events"  And, yeah, that works just fine.  Can you find any other definition from Oxford that actually matches how D&D uses the word?  Evidently you did not go to his source, good will or otherwise.

Do I really have to quote from every single dictionary out there?  Are you about to accuse me of thinking Encyclopedia Brittanica isn't good enough because I haven't quoted that one yet?

JaronK
Did you even read the context of that definition?
-the idea that men should have power over women
-she had me under her power

This is not related to a few points of mental ability scores. This is referring to formal exertion of power, not diplomacy.
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #234 on: December 13, 2010, 10:03:58 PM »
The specific meaning of "advances" is a red herring.

Being a true dragon does not depend upon whether or not you advance via hit dice.  Whether or not (a creature that is not a true dragon) is (a lesser dragon) depends upon that.

Here's a parallel structure:
"Fords are those cars that are produced by the Ford Motor Company."  "Other cars that are licensed by the Toyota Motor company are known as Toyotas."

We can argue until we're blue in the face about what constitutes being licensed by Toyota, but as long as our car is produced by Ford I don't really care.

Or for a slightly more sinister analogy
"Windows boxes are those computers that run an operating system produced by Microsoft." "Other computers that are produced by Apple are known as Macs".
Again, if my computer runs Windows 95, it's a windows box.  I don't have to look at the hardware.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2010, 10:06:21 PM by The_Mad_Linguist »
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BeholderSlayer

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #235 on: December 13, 2010, 10:06:20 PM »
The specific meaning of "advances" is a red herring.
Finally! We're getting somewhere.  :smirk

PS - please tell me you wouldn't buy a Ford
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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #236 on: December 13, 2010, 10:07:20 PM »
You know why it's a red herring?  Because this is a true dragon, bitch
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BeholderSlayer

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #237 on: December 13, 2010, 10:08:57 PM »
You know why it's a red herring?  Because this is a true dragon, bitch
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I was expecting a much funnier picture.   :(
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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #238 on: December 13, 2010, 10:14:15 PM »
You know why it's a red herring?  Because this is a true dragon, bitch
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sadly enough its not... gyrados is water/flying

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #239 on: December 13, 2010, 10:15:46 PM »
I'm taking a break from this until it cools down again and I can give it a proper read-through.

And yes, Gyarados is a Lesser Dragon, not a "True" Dragon.
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