Author Topic: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons  (Read 171402 times)

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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #200 on: December 13, 2010, 08:27:08 PM »
Neither of those refers to getting racial hd because of something.

Similarly, neither of them refers to getting levels because of something.  They instead say "as you proceed to a higher level" and "once you have proceeded through all ten levels". 
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Kajhera

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #201 on: December 13, 2010, 08:28:38 PM »
Question: do you assert that "[members of] X advance through Y" means "X gains hit dice due to Y" in all cases?
No more than you can prove it don't. Plus you are missing an entire point.

You can prove 101% that advance doesn't mean advance by HD within a "advance X though Y" comment. But!
Other creatures of the dragon type that do not advance through age categories are referred to as lesser dragons (which should not be taken to mean that they are necessarily less formidable than true dragons). The meaning of the entire line is to draw attention to some forum of age progression that if lack, means you are a lesser dragon. Try to invalidate the exact word all you want, the sentence is there, it has a purpose. In fact there are many sentences and many pages that are being ignored.

So you tell me what could it mean by not advance though age categories? Let's hear your reason it should mean something else.

Simple.  If a creature of the dragon type does not have age categories listed, AND do not get stronger as they age then they are a lesser dragon.  They are not advancing through age categories in the same way someone who isn't a member of the military isn't advancing through the ranks.  Every single use I've found of "advance through" in any sourcebook anywhere uses it in the Oxford manner.  

But that doesn't matter.

Technically speaking, draconomicon doesn't actually say that dragons must be either true dragons or lesser.  It says that "those creatures which grow more powerful as they get older" are "true dragons".
  
It also says that of the creatures which are not true dragons, those that "do not advance through age categories" are "lesser dragons"

So really the meaning of "advance" is a red herring here.  It never applies, since dragonwrought kobolds are a kind of dragon that "grow(s) more powerful as they get older".  Which makes them a true dragon by definition.  

Now, a half-dragon kobold wouldn't be considered to grow more powerful as it got older, since a net penalty to stats is bad.  That makes it not a true dragon.  Since a half-dragon kobold is of the dragon type, and doesn't advance through hit dice, it'd be a lesser dragon.

And a half-dragon kobold druid 15?

I would say that if you're considering gaining mental stats to be gaining power, you have to continue to consider it that. Admittedly, you will also be losing physical power. I see no reason these should somehow cancel or average out. One is gaining power, one is losing power. The half-dragon kobold advances through 12 age categories, gaining power as it grows older: True. The half-dragon kobold advances through 12 age categories, losing power as it grows older: Also true. Whether these two result in a net gain or loss of power: Depends on the kobold and how you define 'power', which certainly isn't something I've seen well-defined so far.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #202 on: December 13, 2010, 08:31:18 PM »
Eh, I'm fine with a half-dragon druid.  They could already wildshape into true dragons by the point where it matters if they wanted to.

I'm of the opinion that you have to have a net gain to your stats to be considered to grow more powerful.
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Kajhera

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #203 on: December 13, 2010, 08:36:23 PM »
Eh, I'm fine with a half-dragon druid.  They could already wildshape into true dragons by the point where it matters if they wanted to.

I'm of the opinion that you have to have a net gain to your stats to be considered to grow more powerful.

I personally would say that the major litmus test of power in the rules - however flawed it may be - is if it adds to CR.

Are there others? LA, potentially, but I'm uncertain on that.

BeholderSlayer

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #204 on: December 13, 2010, 08:42:00 PM »
I personally would say that the major litmus test of power in the rules - however flawed it may be - is if it adds to CR.

Are there others? LA, potentially, but I'm uncertain on that.
I would argue HD are the litmus test for whether you are gaining power. If you are gaining HD, you are gaining power.
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JaronK

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #205 on: December 13, 2010, 08:42:52 PM »
If it was intended they would have said "you are a true dragon" in the feat.  Age categories can just be fluff (oh, and all creatures have age categories). Giving them 12 age categories? Fluff.

True dragon?  Fluff, at the time of the writing.  Remember, there's never been a set "True Dragon" type with a specific set of attributes, like you have for "giant" or whatever.  Dragons of Eberron wasn't even out yet (or had just been released, either way they didn't know about it).  Being a True Dragon got you access to the Draconic Vampirism feat (in a book they likely hadn't read, and it's not very important anyway) and meant you could be on the recieving end of a Dragonpact bargain (a very minor thing).  I doubt they even noticed the epic feats thing, but since most prerequisites on epic feats mean that ability doesn't do anything, in general "True Dragon" didn't seem to have much meaning.  They just didn't realize Dragons of Eberron was making True Dragon a really meaningful thing.

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Nobody is using the monster manual definition for True Dragons. Not...one...single....person.

It's come up a few times in the last few pages, either calling it a primary source on the topic or referring to the definition therein, actually.

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It's in the OP.
True dragons are those dragons that advance through age categories.
i.e. True dragons are creatures of the dragon type that advance (gain hit dice) through age categories.

Advance, as in, the "Advancement" line of the MM. The part where it has age categories in the dragon section, and the definition of "Advancement" at the beginning where it talks about getting tougher, or whatever. Dragons are shown to advance through age categories. Kobolds (including dragonwrought kobolds) advance by character class, not age categories.

Not advance as in "get older." It's really simple, and pretty much posted two or three times on every page.

Nope, that creates contradictions.  It means Kobolds are True Dragons for Dragonpacts and Draconic Vampirism, but not in other places.  Furthermore, that's actually using the definition for Lesser Dragons from Draconomicon as the only source for what a True Dragon is... meaning it actually ignores part of Draconomicon too, namely the part that says True Dragons are those that get more powerful as they get older (which Kobolds do).  So even within Draconomicon itself that means Kobolds are both Lesser and True... an impossibility, according to that same book.

So yes, complete failure to make a definition without contradictions.

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Or, you could have a nice, clean definition from one primary source and call it a day. Oh, and it doesn't include DWK, sorry.

Ignoring half the definition in your own primary source, and ignoring all other sources as well, is hardly clean.

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You wouldn't have that scenario, because when you determine whether a dragon is a true dragon for both purposes you look at the primary source, the Draconomicon.

Which says that True Dragons are those that gain power as they get older.  DW Kobolds do.  Whoops, you just ignored your own primary source.  Remember, Draconomicon doesn't say "True Dragons are those that get more powerful as they get older, and advance through age categories."  It says the first like about True Dragons, and then says that "other dragons" that don't advance through age categories are lesser.  If the first applies but the second doesn't, you have a contradiction in the rules.

Quote from: The_Mad_Linguist
Technically speaking, draconomicon doesn't actually say that dragons must be either true dragons or lesser.  It says that "those creatures which grow more powerful as they get older" are "true dragons".

It does, actually.   It talks about True Dragons, and then it says "Other" creatures are Lesser.  That makes the categories mutually exclusive.

As for a Half Dragon Kobold Druid 15: well, yeah, it seems it would be.  One of the few places where Timeless Body is actually even vaguely useful.  Funny that.  Though I doubt that would ever come up.   I wonder how many people have ever played a Half Dragon Druid at all, let alone a Half Dragon Kobold Druid.  And to level 15?

JaronK

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #206 on: December 13, 2010, 08:43:57 PM »
Neither of those refers to getting racial hd because of something.
True, but they do refer to getting HD.

Similarly, neither of them refers to getting levels because of something.  They instead say "as you proceed to a higher level" and "once you have proceeded through all ten levels". 
PC's generally gain HD from character levels. So, advancing in a PrC is gaining HD.
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JaronK

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #207 on: December 13, 2010, 08:44:17 PM »
I would argue HD are the litmus test for whether you are gaining power. If you are gaining HD, you are gaining power.

So when I turn an Efreeti into a Zombie, you believe it's gaining a great deal of power?  But if I give a creature the Half Dragon template, it's not gaining power?  You must have a lot of trouble maintaining balance in your games.

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #208 on: December 13, 2010, 08:47:22 PM »

Nope, that creates contradictions.  It means Kobolds are True Dragons for Dragonpacts and Draconic Vampirism, but not in other places.  Furthermore, that's actually using the definition for Lesser Dragons from Draconomicon as the only source for what a True Dragon is... meaning it actually ignores part of Draconomicon too, namely the part that says True Dragons are those that get more powerful as they get older (which Kobolds do).  So even within Draconomicon itself that means Kobolds are both Lesser and True... an impossibility, according to that same book.

So yes, complete failure to make a definition without contradictions.

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Or, you could have a nice, clean definition from one primary source and call it a day. Oh, and it doesn't include DWK, sorry.

Ignoring half the definition in your own primary source, and ignoring all other sources as well, is hardly clean.
You are ignoring part of my argument, quite conveniently I might add.

When you come to a DWK and use Draconic Vampirism, despite using the power the primary source for determine whether a dragon is or is not a True Dragon is the Draconomicon. The Draconomicon takes precedence, and the Draconic Vampirism text is just flat out wrong.

The same goes for Dragonpacts.
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BeholderSlayer

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #209 on: December 13, 2010, 08:52:28 PM »
I would argue HD are the litmus test for whether you are gaining power. If you are gaining HD, you are gaining power.

So when I turn an Efreeti into a Zombie, you believe it's gaining a great deal of power?  But if I give a creature the Half Dragon template, it's not gaining power?  You must have a lot of trouble maintaining balance in your games.

JaronK
Maybe that wasn't thought out as thoroughly as it should have been but who cares, it was just an "I think" opinion type thing.

Here's the thing: by the rules as written, the text of dragonpacts and draconic vampirism are just flat wrong. The rules state the primary source takes precedence on a matter with which it is concerned. So, any time that you need to determine whether a dragon is true or not, you consider the Draconomicon.

You also know how shakey the foundation of "gaining mental stats" as qualification for gaining power happens to be.

If we go by the strict definition of power, it does not qualify.
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #210 on: December 13, 2010, 08:54:58 PM »
Neither of those refers to getting racial hd because of something.
True, but they do refer to getting HD.

They refer to proceeding through something.  The complete mage quote, again:
Quote from: CM 70
The best way to become a master specialist is to be a specialist wizard and take 1st level in the prestige class as your 4th character level. Then you can advance through all ten levels of the class and, after completing it at 13th level, either return to wizard or move on to another prestige class such as archmage.
The word obviously means "proceed" in this context.

Similarly,
Quote from: Five nations, 27

Quote from: PHB II, 177

Now, here's an interesting one
Quote from: Heroes of Horror 110
We can clearly see that "advance through" when applied to levels means "proceed through".

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If we go by the strict definition of power, it does not qualify
Please, show me a rules quotation giving your "strict definition".
« Last Edit: December 13, 2010, 08:56:46 PM by The_Mad_Linguist »
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BeholderSlayer

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #211 on: December 13, 2010, 09:02:57 PM »
The CM quotes are debatable. They can go both ways.

The others are not, but aren't really pertinent either.
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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #212 on: December 13, 2010, 09:04:42 PM »
heres an interesting note:

Phaerimm (p187 Lost Empires of Faerun)

"a Phaerimms Innate magical Ability develops with Age. A Hatchling casts spells as a 1st lvl Sorceror, while a centuries old Revered Elder casts spells as a 19th lvl Sorceror "

it also has Age categories, and can Advance by Age(increasing racial HD+spellcasting+racial abilities) or by taking Class levels

it has many Racial features that are just like dragons .... but they are Not Dragons

 :D
« Last Edit: December 13, 2010, 09:09:10 PM by carnivore »

JaronK

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #213 on: December 13, 2010, 09:07:56 PM »
You are ignoring part of my argument, quite conveniently I might add.

When you come to a DWK and use Draconic Vampirism, despite using the power the primary source for determine whether a dragon is or is not a True Dragon is the Draconomicon. The Draconomicon takes precedence, and the Draconic Vampirism text is just flat out wrong.

The same goes for Dragonpacts.

...

Here's the thing: by the rules as written, the text of dragonpacts and draconic vampirism are just flat wrong. The rules state the primary source takes precedence on a matter with which it is concerned. So, any time that you need to determine whether a dragon is true or not, you consider the Draconomicon.

No no, I mentioned that part of your argument was just outright ignoring sources you don't agree with.  I admit, going for "RAW is wrong... multiple times" as an argument was going a bit farther than I expected.

But you also missed the part where you had to ignore half the Draconomicon definition too.  This makes your "primary source" apologetics rather unimpressive.

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You also know how shakey the foundation of "gaining mental stats" as qualification for gaining power happens to be.

If we go by the strict definition of power, it does not qualify.

Please, tell us all the "strict definition of power" that you're going with.  Is it something in the rules somewhere?  Is it a dictionary definition that ignores the parts that don't fit your theory?

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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #214 on: December 13, 2010, 09:09:26 PM »
The CM quotes are debatable. They can go both ways.

The others are not, but aren't really pertinent either.
My point is that saying "'Advance through age' only can mean 'gain hit dice because of age'" is obviously false.  

Every single quotation using "advance through something" can be successfully parsed as "proceed through the various stratifications of something".  So, for example, a lesser dragon is a dragon that does not "proceed through the various stratifications of age categories".
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JaronK

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #215 on: December 13, 2010, 09:10:08 PM »
heres an interesting note:

Phaerimm (p187 Lost Empires of Faerun)

"a Phaerimms Innate magical Ability develops with Age. A Hatchling casts spells as a 1st lvl Sorceror, while a centuries old Revered Elder casts spells as a 19th lvl Sorceror "

it also has Age categories, and can Advance by Age(increasing racial HD+spellcasting+racial abilities) or by taking Class levels

it has many Racial features that are just like dragons .... but they are Not Dragons

Irrelevant.  All the listed definitions make being of the dragon type one of the required qualifiers.  Those things are abominations, aren't they?  Also, Dragon Magic has a specific clause (specific outweighs general, remember) that it has to be 12 age categories.  How many age categories do those have?

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #216 on: December 13, 2010, 09:11:13 PM »
Power

heres an interesting note:

Phaerimm (p187 Lost Empires of Faerun)

"a Phaerimms Innate magical Ability develops with Age. A Hatchling casts spells as a 1st lvl Sorceror, while a centuries old Revered Elder casts spells as a 19th lvl Sorceror "

it also has Age categories, and can Advance by Age(increasing racial HD+spellcasting+racial abilities) or by taking Class levels

it has many Racial features that are just like dragons .... but they are Not Dragons

Irrelevant.  All the listed definitions make being of the dragon type one of the required qualifiers.  Those things are abominations, aren't they?  Also, Dragon Magic has a specific clause (specific outweighs general, remember) that it has to be 12 age categories.  How many age categories do those have?

JaronK
Technically, whether Dragon Magic's quote is even usable as a rule is up for debate, so just assuming that it applies is fallacious.

But yeah, I didn't get it either. Phaerimm are a different beast...literally.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2010, 09:13:01 PM by BeholderSlayer »
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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #217 on: December 13, 2010, 09:18:21 PM »
The CM quotes are debatable. They can go both ways.

The others are not, but aren't really pertinent either.
My point is that saying "'Advance through age' only can mean 'gain hit dice because of age'" is obviously false.  

Every single quotation using "advance through something" can be successfully parsed as "proceed through the various stratifications of something".  So, for example, a lesser dragon is a dragon that does not "proceed through the various stratifications of age categories".
Perhaps true. Perhaps not. This argument currently may suffer from multiple fallacies, one of which could possibly be biased sample, the other being whatever that one is where you just start lobbing tons of unrelated information disguised as related. Whether it "could" be read that way is highly irrelevant, and is something I admitted a long, long time ago. The question is whether that is the correct way to read it for this situation.

Not to leave anybody out, JaronK's argument suffers from the Appeal to Consistency fallacy, especially in the face of a rules quote that states that rules decisions need not be consistent, only that the primary source matters.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2010, 09:21:29 PM by BeholderSlayer »
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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #218 on: December 13, 2010, 09:26:14 PM »

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #219 on: December 13, 2010, 09:31:01 PM »
No Beholder.  You are the one failing to be consistent.

The rules from Dragon Magic and Dragons of Krynn DO NOT contradict Draconomicon.  The only reason you are saying they do is because they weaken your argument.

Advance through age categories: check.
Have 12 age categories: check

I fail to see how these are in any way contradictory.  The second merely specifies the first to being 12 age categories instead of 4 or 18 or something.  You suddenly begin saying that they are contradictory because they don't fit with your attempt to disqualify Dragonwroght Kobolds.  Since there is no disagreement, Primary/Secondary source rule never applies.
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