Author Topic: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons  (Read 128655 times)

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BeholderSlayer

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Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« on: December 11, 2010, 01:22:37 AM »
Yep, it's that time of the month again. I've read all the arguments, I've seen all the logic. I hate to bring it up yet again, but I've just been thinking. First of all, I'm not a major proponent for either side. In fact, being able to treat kobolds as True Dragons in order to grab Loredrake has been one of my favorite character flavors from both a mechanics AND roleplaying perspective. Something about a kobold trying to convince his non-kobold companions that he is, in fact, an actual TRUE dragon, while his companions laugh and roll their eyes, just makes me happy inside. However, to the point:

1. The generally accepted definition of a true dragon is:
Quote from: Draconomicon, p.4 sidebar
.....true dragons are those creatures that grow more powerful as they grow older...other creatures of the dragon type that do not advance through age categories are referred to as lesser dragons
Many people place more emphasis on the second part, but that's irrelevant to my thinking because that's the part I'm challenging.
2. The universally accepted true dragons advance through age categories, which gives them more HD.
3. The term "advance" has a very specific meaning in D&D language when talking about creatures. The advancement line in the monster manual points out the method by which creatures get tougher. Some gain HD, like animals, some gain class levels, like most humanoids, and true dragons advance by aging, which also grows their HD.
4. Kobolds advance by character class, according to the rules.
5. Metallic/Chromatic/etc. dragons advance by aging.

Just by looking at the words used, it sorta looks to me like kobolds do not advance through age categories. They do age, but they do not ADVANCE by gaining age. Rather, they advance by gaining character class levels. Dragonwrought kobolds do gain power as they age (higher mental abilities), however, they do not ADVANCE through age categories by the strictest meaning of the word in D&D creature terms.

This, obviously, means that Dragonwrought Kobolds would not be True Dragons if you follow this logic.

What does it mean?
Dragonwrought Kobolds cannot take epic feats early.
It is POSSIBLE that it could mean that Dragonwrought Kobolds cannot take Loredrake. The Sovereign Archetypes section only mentions True Dragons one time. However, within the context of the book, it would appear that Dragonwrought Kobolds cannot take Loredrake (context is as much a part of RAW as the words). Still, the Sovereign Archetypes section only says "dragons" except in the one part where it states all true dragons have access to arcane magic.

What does it not mean?
It doesn't mean that Dragonwrought Kobolds don't automatically qualify for feats, PrCs, etc. requiring dragonblood subtype. This line specifically says the "dragon" type, and nothing about True Dragons. (sorry about the double negative)
It doesn't mean Dragonwrought Kobolds can't use spell slots/spells known to utilize Draconic Aura (Dragon Magic).(edited: just reread Draconic Auras in DM)

Sorry to open this up yet again, that has just been nagging at my sense of logic.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2010, 08:21:05 PM by BeholderSlayer »
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AndyJames

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2010, 01:57:53 AM »
Actually, there is nothing preventing dragons from gaining character levels. If they take sorcerer levels, it stacks with their innate casting.

BeholderSlayer

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2010, 01:59:28 AM »
Actually, there is nothing preventing dragons from gaining character levels. If they take sorcerer levels, it stacks with their innate casting.
While true, kobolds do not have the option to advance by aging. True dragons have the option to use either one.
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AndyJames

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2010, 02:06:21 AM »
Actually, there is nothing preventing dragons from gaining character levels. If they take sorcerer levels, it stacks with their innate casting.
While true, kobolds do not have the option to advance by aging. True dragons have the option to use either one.
Well, there isn't really a division between the TYPES of HD as far as advancement is concerned. A HD of Outsider or Dragon is the same as one of Humanoid or Commoner.

BeholderSlayer

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2010, 02:20:24 AM »
Actually, there is nothing preventing dragons from gaining character levels. If they take sorcerer levels, it stacks with their innate casting.
While true, kobolds do not have the option to advance by aging. True dragons have the option to use either one.
Well, there isn't really a division between the TYPES of HD as far as advancement is concerned. A HD of Outsider or Dragon is the same as one of Humanoid or Commoner.
Sure there is. Outsiders that gain outsider HD gain different benefits than animals that gain animal HD. Typically humanoids gain HD through character levels, which are different than Outsider HD. Outsiders have d8 hit dice when gaining outsider HD, and gain 8+INT skill points per hit die, fill BAB, and high save progression for all saves. Animals have d8 HD, have 3/4 BAB progression, good fortitude and reflex, and 2+ INT skill points per HD. Dragons have d12 HD, full BAB, good fortitude, reflex, and will saves, and 6+INT skill points per HD. Humanoids have their own rule, that states:
Quote from: SRD: Humanoid Type
Humanoids with 1 Hit Die exchange the features of their humanoid Hit Die for the class features of a PC or NPC class.

Dragons advance HD by gaining age or character levels. Animals advance HD by gaining size. Outsiders advance HD by gaining size. Humanoids advance HD by gaining character levels.

Note that monsters may advance by character class, but humanoids may not advance without character class.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2010, 03:01:42 AM by BeholderSlayer »
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AndyJames

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2010, 02:25:38 AM »
Actually, there is nothing preventing dragons from gaining character levels. If they take sorcerer levels, it stacks with their innate casting.
While true, kobolds do not have the option to advance by aging. True dragons have the option to use either one.
Well, there isn't really a division between the TYPES of HD as far as advancement is concerned. A HD of Outsider or Dragon is the same as one of Humanoid or Commoner.
Sure there is. Outsiders that gain outsider HD gain different benefits than animals that gain animal HD. Typically humanoids gain HD through character levels, which are different than Outsider HD. Outsiders have d8 hit dice when gaining outsider HD, and gain 8+INT skill points per hit die, fill BAB, and high save progression for all saves. Animals have d8 HD, have 3/4 BAB progression, good fortitude and reflex, and 2+ INT skill points per HD. Dragons have d12 HD, full BAB, good fortitude, reflex, and will saves, and 6+INT skill points per HD. Humanoids have their own rule, that states:
Quote from: SRD: Humanoid Type
Humanoids with 1 Hit Die exchange the features of their humanoid Hit Die for the class features of a PC or NPC class.

Dragons advance HD by gaining age or character levels. Animals advance HD by gaining size. Outsiders advance HD by gaining size. Humanoids advance HD by gaining character levels.

I said "as far as advancement is concerned". A creature with 5 giant levels is the same as a creature with 5 dragon levels is the same as a human with 5 wizard levels. They are all 5 HD. That is all advancement looks at: your total HD.

BeholderSlayer

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2010, 02:31:31 AM »
Actually, there is nothing preventing dragons from gaining character levels. If they take sorcerer levels, it stacks with their innate casting.
While true, kobolds do not have the option to advance by aging. True dragons have the option to use either one.
Well, there isn't really a division between the TYPES of HD as far as advancement is concerned. A HD of Outsider or Dragon is the same as one of Humanoid or Commoner.
Sure there is. Outsiders that gain outsider HD gain different benefits than animals that gain animal HD. Typically humanoids gain HD through character levels, which are different than Outsider HD. Outsiders have d8 hit dice when gaining outsider HD, and gain 8+INT skill points per hit die, fill BAB, and high save progression for all saves. Animals have d8 HD, have 3/4 BAB progression, good fortitude and reflex, and 2+ INT skill points per HD. Dragons have d12 HD, full BAB, good fortitude, reflex, and will saves, and 6+INT skill points per HD. Humanoids have their own rule, that states:
Quote from: SRD: Humanoid Type
Humanoids with 1 Hit Die exchange the features of their humanoid Hit Die for the class features of a PC or NPC class.

Dragons advance HD by gaining age or character levels. Animals advance HD by gaining size. Outsiders advance HD by gaining size. Humanoids advance HD by gaining character levels.

I said "as far as advancement is concerned". A creature with 5 giant levels is the same as a creature with 5 dragon levels is the same as a human with 5 wizard levels. They are all 5 HD. That is all advancement looks at: your total HD.
True, but that doesn't address the fact that True Dragons advance through age categories automatically as they gain HD, and dragonwrought kobolds advance through character levels with complete disregard for the age categories. By gaining HD, a dragonwrought kobold doesn't automatically advance through age categories. A true dragon, on the other hand, does.
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Emo_Duck

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2010, 02:54:27 AM »
Do monsters gain racial HD through earning experience? One possible point of difference between HD types might be said thusly: Level HD are gained through accumulating experience, whereas racial HD are gained by aging(?). Although I'm not sure all monsters get more powerful simply through getting older.

AndyJames

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2010, 03:12:35 AM »
Do monsters gain racial HD through earning experience? One possible point of difference between HD types might be said thusly: Level HD are gained through accumulating experience, whereas racial HD are gained by aging(?). Although I'm not sure all monsters get more powerful simply through getting older.
They don't. That is why the comparison doesn't hold water.

BOTH the DW kobold and the dragon advance through the AGE categories via age. The HD part is besides the point. It is no different to an epic level human wizard being of ancient age and a level 1 commoner human being of ancient age. The age chart is separate to HD of any kind.

If you look at it from a HD point of view, it also falls apart because a young dragon with 500 levels of sorcerer is STILL a young dragon. It didn't become a great wyrm because of those 500 sorcerer levels.

You cannot use the HD argument to say that the DW kobold is not a true dragon. It is also wrong to claim that the DW kobold doesn't advance through the age categories by aging. The ONLY criteria for advancing an age category is by definition age.

sir_argenon

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2010, 03:52:00 AM »
does a DW kobold gain hd, and abilities just by getting older? without taking any more levels? for instance, when a 100 yd old dw kobold becomes 101 years old.. what happens?

BeholderSlayer

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2010, 04:07:29 AM »
You cannot use the HD argument to say that the DW kobold is not a true dragon. It is also wrong to claim that the DW kobold doesn't advance through the age categories by aging. The ONLY criteria for advancing an age category is by definition age.
Wrong.

The criterion for advancing BY age category is gaining advancement through age. Dragonwrought Kobolds do not do this.

"Advance" has a very specific meaning in D&D, and "aging" is not it.

The "advancement" entry in the MM for True Dragons links True Dragon's HD to age for that specific monster. Specific trumps general.
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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2010, 04:31:48 AM »
You cannot use the HD argument to say that the DW kobold is not a true dragon. It is also wrong to claim that the DW kobold doesn't advance through the age categories by aging. The ONLY criteria for advancing an age category is by definition age.
Wrong.

The criterion for advancing BY age category is gaining advancement through age. Dragonwrought Kobolds do not do this.

"Advance" has a very specific meaning in D&D, and "aging" is not it.

The "advancement" entry in the MM for True Dragons links True Dragon's HD to age for that specific monster. Specific trumps general.
The referrence point of the age table is age, not HD. Take a look at the MM again. The first column is age. It is in word form, but it is still age. What it says is that when you get to x age, you have y HD. Otherwise, that level 500 sorcerer would be a great wyrm, not a young dragon.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2010, 04:34:23 AM »
Quote from: dragons of krynn
a true dragon (a creature of the dragon type that possesses an age category)
Quote
Minor clans of dragonkind exist alongside these others—true dragons all, they are hatched from eggs as wyrmlings and reach great wyrm status given time.
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skydragonknight

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2010, 04:37:14 AM »
The only definition of Advancement is:
Quote from: Monster Manual
This book describes only the most commonly encountered version of a creature (though some entries for advanced monsters can be found). The advancement line shows how tough a monster can get, in terms of extra Hit Dice. (This is not an absolute limit, but exceptions are extremely rare.) Often, intelligent creatures advance by gaining a level in a character class instead of just gaining a new Hit Die.

Now, have at it.
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BeholderSlayer

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2010, 04:41:06 AM »
You cannot use the HD argument to say that the DW kobold is not a true dragon. It is also wrong to claim that the DW kobold doesn't advance through the age categories by aging. The ONLY criteria for advancing an age category is by definition age.
Wrong.

The criterion for advancing BY age category is gaining advancement through age. Dragonwrought Kobolds do not do this.

"Advance" has a very specific meaning in D&D, and "aging" is not it.

The "advancement" entry in the MM for True Dragons links True Dragon's HD to age for that specific monster. Specific trumps general.
The referrence point of the age table is age, not HD. Take a look at the MM again. The first column is age. It is in word form, but it is still age. What it says is that when you get to x age, you have y HD. Otherwise, that level 500 sorcerer would be a great wyrm, not a young dragon.
Correct, except the last part, which is actually completely irrelevant to this discussion at all.

The point is that true dragons CAN gain HD, aka advance, simply through aging. They do so naturally. A kobold cannot advance through age, only by class levels. What the first column in a table happens to be is also completely irrelevant.

"Aging" does not qualify as "advancing through age categories." Advancing is a method through which a creature increases attack bonuses, saves, and other abilities tie to HD. A true dragon has the option to advance only through age, if they so please. A dragonwrought kobold cannot advance through age, it can only advance through character levels.

The fact that a young dragon with 500 sorcerer levels advanced by character level is also irrelevant, because when it gets to the next age category, it advances by racial HD despite having all the sorcerer levels.
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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2010, 04:43:19 AM »
A dragonwrought kobold cannot advance through age, it can only advance through character levels.
BS. Look at the table for kobolds again.

BeholderSlayer

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2010, 04:43:53 AM »
Quote from: dragons of krynn
a true dragon (a creature of the dragon type that possesses an age category)
Quote
Minor clans of dragonkind exist alongside these others—true dragons all, they are hatched from eggs as wyrmlings and reach great wyrm status given time.
Both of these are not universally accepted definitions. Dragons of Krynn is also not nearly as definitive a source as a the Draconomicon and MM, since it is campaign-setting specific. At best it could be considered a third tier source, with the core books being first tier and books like the Draconomicon being second tier.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2010, 04:47:59 AM by BeholderSlayer »
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BeholderSlayer

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2010, 04:46:54 AM »
A dragonwrought kobold cannot advance through age, it can only advance through character levels.
BS. Look at the table for kobolds again.
You aren't getting the definition of advance, or you are being intentionally obtuse and dense. Having age categories and actually advancing through those age categories is drastically different.

The only definition of Advancement is:
Quote from: Monster Manual
This book describes only the most commonly encountered version of a creature (though some entries for advanced monsters can be found). The advancement line shows how tough a monster can get, in terms of extra Hit Dice. (This is not an absolute limit, but exceptions are extremely rare.) Often, intelligent creatures advance by gaining a level in a character class instead of just gaining a new Hit Die.

Now, have at it.
Yes, that's what it says. Dragons gain racial HD through aging, which qualifies as advancement per this quote.

Dragonwrought kobolds do not gain HD by aging, and therefore do not qualify for advancing through age categories.
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skydragonknight

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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2010, 04:50:29 AM »
Do the creatures in Dragons of Krynn have age categories in their advancement line?
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Re: Challenging Dragonwrought Kobolds = True Dragons
« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2010, 04:52:13 AM »
If only we could have a poll so I could vote 'agree'.