Author Topic: Lowering Evocation spell levels  (Read 15710 times)

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AndyJames

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Re: Lowering Evocation spell levels
« Reply #80 on: December 22, 2010, 03:47:08 AM »
Told you I suck at math. Where does that x8 keep on coming from? My mind is rejecting the rules....
*sigh* so, 12.8 only follows two steps later, which, IIRC is 8d6? Yeah....
Real world physics most things that double in size are about x8 in mass. Also some spells that deal with characters doubling in size mention weight being x8.

Answers.com has a good explanation
Doubling in size in every dimension = 2 x 2 x 2 in volume = 8. If your density is the same throughout, that means an 8 times increase in mass. Not difficult if you know physics :P

Garryl

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Re: Lowering Evocation spell levels
« Reply #81 on: December 22, 2010, 12:35:11 PM »
The only problem with applying that directly and without end is the square-cube law. Mass (being based on 3D size) increases by a factor of 8 for every doubling of scale, but the surface area that supports it (being based on 2D size) only increases by a factor of 4. Eventually, a sufficiently scaled object would be massive enough to be unable to support itself. The scales that D&D goes through are sufficient for it to be a problem if applying real-world physics. A sword with the same proportions, scaled from Medium to Colossal would be unwieldy and fragile.
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Senevri

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Re: Lowering Evocation spell levels
« Reply #82 on: December 22, 2010, 01:02:10 PM »
Well, admittedly, as mentioned, a blade twice as long needn't be twice as thick. As for the, tensile strength, I guess... Let's not go there.
It's really for the best to cap scale categories to colossal, at least. :/

archangel.arcanis

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Re: Lowering Evocation spell levels
« Reply #83 on: December 22, 2010, 01:02:54 PM »
Told you I suck at math. Where does that x8 keep on coming from? My mind is rejecting the rules....
*sigh* so, 12.8 only follows two steps later, which, IIRC is 8d6? Yeah....
Real world physics most things that double in size are about x8 in mass. Also some spells that deal with characters doubling in size mention weight being x8.

Answers.com has a good explanation
Doubling in size in every dimension = 2 x 2 x 2 in volume = 8. If your density is the same throughout, that means an 8 times increase in mass. Not difficult if you know physics :P
that is what I said and what my link explained. I just put most things instead of all because its physics they always have some bastard breaking the rules; blackholes are just divide by 0 errors of gravity, non-Newtonian fluids are all kinds of cool, real world Neanderthals (being bigger than normal people) actually were at the size limits of the "human" body type*.

*due to the lack of surface area to radiate heat they always had a high internal body temperature. This meant that that if they weren't careful when exerting themselves for long periods of time they would cook their brains, as a very high fever would do to a modern human. This is also proof that D&D giants couldn't exist since their bones would break or they would die of over heating.
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Re: Lowering Evocation spell levels
« Reply #84 on: December 22, 2010, 06:17:35 PM »
Neanderthals were not bigger than modern humans. In fact, they were a bit shorter on average (but maybe about the same size as their contemporary H. sapiens). They were stockier, and likely much more strong, especially in their upper bodies.1 Recent genetic evidence also shows that they almost certainly interbred with "modern" humans.2

1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal_anatomy
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veekie

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Re: Lowering Evocation spell levels
« Reply #85 on: December 22, 2010, 09:10:21 PM »
Recent genetic evidence also shows that they almost certainly interbred with "modern" humans.2
Pffft, in fantasy humans can successfully breed with ANYTHING!
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Lowering Evocation spell levels
« Reply #87 on: December 22, 2010, 09:54:38 PM »
Depends what you mean by "species".
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Lowering Evocation spell levels
« Reply #89 on: December 22, 2010, 10:00:27 PM »
Isn't really a good definition in a world where wizards create duckbunnies and owlbear.

Heck, anything can be incorporated into a sharn, and almost anything can be a half-dragon.
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veekie

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Re: Lowering Evocation spell levels
« Reply #90 on: December 22, 2010, 11:43:24 PM »
Well, mongrelfolk and magic aside, it does seem that orcs and elves are subspecies of humans. Giants, too.
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The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
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"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

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Khiliarkhou Astrape!
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Tenebrus

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Re: Lowering Evocation spell levels
« Reply #91 on: December 24, 2010, 08:13:40 PM »
Sorry, last page+, but again about lowering evocation spell levels?

I would repeat that, whatever its virtues, it helps those who are the last who need help in this game.

Now, if we want to talk about Tier 4+ being able to enter any prestige class without prerequisites, then let's talk.  So many PrC's are so crappy, the DM should totally be able to skew the entry requirements if that's what helps a player's fluff.   

Senevri

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Re: Lowering Evocation spell levels
« Reply #92 on: December 25, 2010, 12:33:06 AM »
I don't think it's all that bad an idea to lower the spell levels. That being said, I've put a lot of work into estimating appropriate spells per level, so what I'd rather do is create a LESSER fireball, 1st level, 10ft radius burst and medium range, with cap at 5 dice. Lightning Bolt could be dropped to 1, since line effects aren't all that great.

For 1 die per level effects, I calculated that 1-3 level spells can be d6, while 4-6 should be d8 and 7-9 should be d10s.

This came from my assumption that each spell level is 50% better than the previous, for the levels they are in use, at least. Adding to this the level scale when spells of that level are the strongest spells...

At 2nd level, you're dealing 2d6 damage, typically. 2-12 range. Thus, level 2 spells should be at 3-18 range on levels 3-4, and...
lv 5-6, 3rd: 4-24
lv 7-8 4th: 6-36
lv 9-10 5th: 8-48
lv 11-12 6th: 12-72
lv 13-14 7th: 16-96
lv 15-16 8th: 24-144
lv 17-18 9th: 32-192
lv 19-20 10th: 48-288

An average CR 17-18 monster has a bit less than 300 HP. Average damage result of a spell of that level is 112, meaning a mage can solo an appropriate-level encounter in 2-3 rounds, using direct damage. At least that's what's _appropriate_.

Another patterns I've recognized are that mass versions of spells seem to be +2 levels in newer books, making mass cures underpowered by default. Also, Lesser/greater versions of spells are +/- 2 levels, and... well, vary wildly, but in mage armor's case, is +50% more powerful in greater version.

veekie

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Re: Lowering Evocation spell levels
« Reply #93 on: December 25, 2010, 10:55:21 AM »
^^
Yeah, they  seem to be overrating the AoE effects rather often.
Actually...how many 9th level spells even make the cut? It seems to me that you could probably stretch the current best spells to 15 spell levels and they'd probably hold up fine if there was any monsters of that stature to compete with. Some(9th or no) are dramatically underleveled for their capabilities.

Hmm, how do the damage by level numbers compare with martial sorts(accounting for missing due to AC or not)?
I'm curious to see how an unoptimized build fares.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
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Senevri

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Re: Lowering Evocation spell levels
« Reply #94 on: December 25, 2010, 07:58:57 PM »
Well, Meteor Swarm when used against a single target holds up rather well (touch, no save, and nearly 2d6 damage per CL at 17th), so it could be argued that it's all the _other_ staple 9th spells that are in fact, overpowered. Of course, it falls behind rather quickly, as the damage needs to increase about 25% per level, or basically, it should give an extra meteor per level above 17th....

It'd be interesting to know the average combat times, but if a wizard, with successful magic 'hits' can solo an equal-level encounter in 2-3 rounds... Well, since I count using highest-level spells, it's also using majority of it's power in a single encounter.

Some sort of a table of 'ability to deal and withstand damage if combat lasts so-and-so many rounds' could be interesting.

ninjarabbit

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Re: Lowering Evocation spell levels
« Reply #95 on: December 28, 2010, 10:48:25 PM »
Well, Meteor Swarm when used against a single target holds up rather well (touch, no save, and nearly 2d6 damage per CL at 17th), so it could be argued that it's all the _other_ staple 9th spells that are in fact, overpowered. Of course, it falls behind rather quickly, as the damage needs to increase about 25% per level, or basically, it should give an extra meteor per level above 17th....

Except disintegrate will outdamage Meteor swarm on a failed save and being a 6th level spell it can easily be metamagiced to be even more nasty like with split ray or empower spell.

AndyJames

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Re: Lowering Evocation spell levels
« Reply #96 on: December 28, 2010, 11:14:34 PM »
Well, Meteor Swarm when used against a single target holds up rather well (touch, no save, and nearly 2d6 damage per CL at 17th), so it could be argued that it's all the _other_ staple 9th spells that are in fact, overpowered. Of course, it falls behind rather quickly, as the damage needs to increase about 25% per level, or basically, it should give an extra meteor per level above 17th....

Except disintegrate will outdamage Meteor swarm on a failed save and being a 6th level spell it can easily be metamagiced to be even more nasty like with split ray or empower spell.
The other problem with Meteor Swarm is that most of its damage is fire. There are a lot of fire immune things at 17th level.

Senevri

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Re: Lowering Evocation spell levels
« Reply #97 on: December 29, 2010, 05:55:20 AM »
@AndyJames: That's rather true.
@ninjarabbit, true. Except that the single target of the 'swarm, presuming they're not magic or fire-immune - or highly fire-resistant - won't get a save.

Admittedly, for a 'fire' caster, making your spells half-force, half-divine and searing is probably a good choice.