What are some good benefits of the Humanoid [Human] type?

[Amechra]

I can think of two:

-You can enter the Chameleon PrC. This is a good thing.
-You can enter Human Paragon (not sure about this).
-You can enter Red Wizard of Thay. This is a f***ing amazing thing.
-You can take a bunch of feats. Such as the Destiny line from Races of Destiny. This is OK, at best.

Why am I asking about this? Because you can, at 7th level, turn any race into a Humanoid with the Human subtype.

Why do I say this? Because that's the level when you get Polymorph and Psychic Reformation.

And this has bearing how? Because you polymorph into, let's say, a Half Elf. Now use Psychic Reformation to replace your 1st level feat with Human Heritage, officially changing your type to Humanoid [Human]. However, when you turn back to your original race, you retain the feat, since it self-qualifies (you can only take the feat if you are "Half-Human, or Human Descended", and if you are Humanoid [Human], you necessarily had a human in your ancestry.

So, in other words, I can think of a couple uses for this:
-Loredrake Dragonwrought Kobold Cheese, combined with Flaws, to get yourself Human Heritage and Dragonwrought, because Human Heritage leaves you as counting as your old race and humanoid [human] for whether or not you qualify for something.

Such as Red Wizard. Tell me, who wouldn't want to see a Loredrake Dragonwrought Kobold Red Wizard of Thay? I would. Especially since, if you can find a Red Wizard 7 somewhere, you can force them to grant you the Tattoo Focus feat as a bonus feat, thus neatly sidestepping the whole "Sorcerers don't get the ability to specialize in a school."

In other words, you cast 6th level spells at cl 40 at level 10, which is nice.

It even would let you do something like Loredrake Dragonwrought Kobold Wizard 1/ Sorceror 3/Red Wizard of Thay 5/(Master Transmogrophist/Swiftblade, your choice) 10/X 1, and still hit 9th level spells.

Any other ideas? the above assumes that you can choose the order in which feats apply.

[ninjarabbit]

If you're a half ogre with human heritage you become a legal target for enlarge person (and spells like charm person) so for example a half ogre cleric 1 with the strength domain can become huge sized at ECL 3.

[Amechra]

That's a good one. Now that's a decent, especially if you have leadership; small army of those babies!

[Maat_Mons]

I'm reminded of this:

The main reason I like otherworldy on ghost is that your rejuvenation can no longer be overcome by anything, and you now don't have to worry about turning or whatever.  You also retain immunities to fort saves, ability damage, ability drain, and energy drain, and most of the nastiest anti-incorporeal stuff is targeted against undead.

[Endarire]

For more Circle Magic options, see Player's Guide to Faerun 59 for Hathran and Shining South for Halruaan Elder.

[Widow]

Not sure if this is powerful, but it would allow non-humanoids to become lichs (although not necessary for dry lichs).  Something to help out a 20 level dread necromancer build.  There must be other template tricks...

Tauric Creature might be it  . Now it is an inherited template, so it might require a ritual of transformation to add it afterwards since it is not acquired and you cannot get it after you are born and refeated.  But it would certainly open up more races, just have to go light on the level adjustment.  A Tauric Warforged would be humerous.  Real power might be in the slyph, phaerimm, or something else with racial spell casting.  All those HD from the animal will not hurt your spell casting.

Symbiotic creatures would be another example and a lot easier to build once you can have tiny humanoids for guests.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

(you can only take the feat if you are "Half-Human, or Human Descended", and if you are Humanoid [Human], you necessarily had a human in your ancestry.

Argument falls apart there.

And there's nothing that says you actually keep the human subtype (or the type change) if you change forms.

[BeholderSlayer]

(you can only take the feat if you are "Half-Human, or Human Descended", and if you are Humanoid [Human], you necessarily had a human in your ancestry.

Argument falls apart there.

And there's nothing that says you actually keep the human subtype (or the type change) if you change forms.

and i'm pretty sure there IS something that says once you lose the prerequisites for a feat, you can no longer use it for anything. this means kobold/humans aren't really possible.

[PhaedrusXY]

When I first saw this, I read it as "Humanoid (Hunan)", and LOL'd.

[Echoes]

(you can only take the feat if you are "Half-Human, or Human Descended", and if you are Humanoid [Human], you necessarily had a human in your ancestry.

Argument falls apart there.

And there's nothing that says you actually keep the human subtype (or the type change) if you change forms.

If you're a [Human], then by definition you are human-descended. The feat self-qualifies once you actually have it.

[BeholderSlayer]

(you can only take the feat if you are "Half-Human, or Human Descended", and if you are Humanoid [Human], you necessarily had a human in your ancestry.

Argument falls apart there.

And there's nothing that says you actually keep the human subtype (or the type change) if you change forms.

If you're a [Human], then by definition you are human-descended. The feat self-qualifies once you actually have it.

There's that whole PRErequisites thing. Prereqs are checked first. If you don't meet the prereqs without having the feat, the feat doesn't apply.

That's probably RAI, but it has a good chance of being RAW.

I also don't think RAW will let a forced Tattoo Focus feat operate on a sorcerer. You don't meet the prereqs, so you may have the tattoo, but you don't actually have the feat.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

If you're a [Human], then by definition you are human-descended. The feat self-qualifies once you actually have it.

a) Prove that
b) You lose the Humanoid [human] when alter self expires, it doesn't self-qualify, so you don't regain it.

[skydragonknight]

If you're a [Human], then by definition you are human-descended. The feat self-qualifies once you actually have it.

a) Prove that

Ooooh. Logic. I'll go by contrapositive.

Let George be a character in D&D. George is not descended from humans.
1. Therefore, George is not blood-related to humans.
2. Therefore George is not a race with the [human] subtype, since all such races are blood-related (shared ancestry) to humans by definition of subtype.
3. Since George's race does not have the [human] subtype and George is a member of his own race, George does not have the [human] subtype.
4. Therefore by contrapositive, since all d&d characters not descended from humans lack the [human] subtype, all d&d characters with the [human] subtype are descended from humans.

QED

[snakeman830]

Honestly, how would this feat be any different than Anarchic Initiate 3 and PsyRef/retraining Overchannel?

[Jopustopin]

If you're a [Human], then by definition you are human-descended. The feat self-qualifies once you actually have it.

a) Prove that

Ooooh. Logic. I'll go by contrapositive.

Let George be a character in D&D. George is not descended from humans.
1. Therefore, George is not blood-related to humans.
2. Therefore George is not a race with the [human] subtype, since all such races are blood-related (shared ancestry) to humans by definition of subtype.
3. Since George's race does not have the [human] subtype and George is a member of his own race, George does not have the [human] subtype.
4. Therefore by contrapositive, since all d&d characters not descended from humans lack the [human] subtype, all d&d characters with the [human] subtype are descended from humans.

QED

Not all d&d character with the [human] subtype are descended from humans. Read the first post!  We have a kobold with the human subtype, which is not descended from humans.

QED

[BeholderSlayer]

Not all d&d character with the [human] subtype are descended from humans. Read the first post!  We have a kobold with the human subtype, which is not descended from humans.

QED

Except the OP doesn't work. So no, we don't have a kobold with the human subtype. We have a kobold with a wasted feat that doesn't do anything.

Once you lose the qualification for a feat, you do not gain its benefits. That's how the rules work. Feats do not self-qualify.

[Jopustopin]

Not all d&d character with the [human] subtype are descended from humans. Read the first post!  We have a kobold with the human subtype, which is not descended from humans.

QED

Except the OP doesn't work. So no, we don't have a kobold with the human subtype. We have a kobold with a wasted feat that doesn't do anything.

Once you lose the qualification for a feat, you do not gain its benefits. That's how the rules work. Feats do not self-qualify.

The proof that he gave was to prove that the kobold did qualify for it.  I showed him one of his premises was faulty.  If the kobold does qualify for the feat (which was what he was trying to prove) then one of his premises fails.

[BeholderSlayer]

Not all d&d character with the [human] subtype are descended from humans. Read the first post!  We have a kobold with the human subtype, which is not descended from humans.

QED

Except the OP doesn't work. So no, we don't have a kobold with the human subtype. We have a kobold with a wasted feat that doesn't do anything.

Once you lose the qualification for a feat, you do not gain its benefits. That's how the rules work. Feats do not self-qualify.

The proof that he gave was to prove that the kobold did qualify for it.  I showed him one of his premises was faulty.  If the kobold does qualify for the feat (which was what he was trying to prove) then one of his premises fails.

Ah, I misread your intentions. My fault.

[Jopustopin]

I said it kind of as a joke.  I'm not entirely sure about the soundness of his argument.  If anyone has taken a formal logic class run a truth tree for it.

His argument runs like this:

UD: All D&D things with types and subtypes
Bx: x is blood-related to humans
Hx: x is descended from humans
Kx: x's race has the human subtype
Sx: x has the human subtype
Vx: x is a race with the human subtype
Yx: x is a member of x's race

Premise 1: There exist at least one x such that it is not descended from humans
Premise 2: For all x if x is not descended from humans then x is not blood related to humans
Premise 3: For all x if x is not blood related to humans then x's race does not have the human subtype
Premise 4: If both x's race does not have the human subtype and x is a member of his own race then x does not have have the human subtype
Conclusion:
If for all x  both x is not descended from humans and x is not a race with a human subtype then for all x if x has the human subtype x is descended from humans

[skydragonknight]

On closer consideration, Premise 3 is unfortunately false, since the contrapositive "If x's race has the human subtype then x is blood related to humans" is false.

Counterexample: A squirrel polymorphed into a human. Has the human subtype. Is not necessarily related by blood to any human.

Polymorph any Object: breaking logic since 3E.