Author Topic: The Swift Hunter's Handbook  (Read 172440 times)

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Tshern

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Re: The Swift Hunter's Handbook
« Reply #20 on: May 22, 2008, 07:17:32 PM »
Being a Raptoran?
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kun sama keiju katossa leijailee.
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AfterCrescent

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Re: The Swift Hunter's Handbook
« Reply #21 on: May 22, 2008, 10:10:03 PM »
The cake is a lie.
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Prime32

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Re: The Swift Hunter's Handbook
« Reply #22 on: May 22, 2008, 11:55:09 PM »
Say, can you put Great Flyby Attack in the list, be it black, blue, red or whatever? It's basically dervish dance at will while flying.

i don't have the time to think about it, but i'd probably say black, unless you've got an easy way to fly.
You can fly with magic items, play a race with a fly speed (there are LA +0 ones), or take warlock levels for fell flight. The half-celestial (but not half-fiend) template gives a fly speed equal to double your land speed, and the half-dragon template does so if you are Large (dragon disciple gets only your land speed, and would take up too many levels anyway).
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The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
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Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
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Dictum Mortuum

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Re: The Swift Hunter's Handbook
« Reply #23 on: May 23, 2008, 12:09:16 AM »
Dragonborn is probably the best way, but it hurts dex, so you need at least a +dex race to template up. Otherwise you can do it with a template and buy the LA off (but i don't know of any low LA and flight speed templates) or items (which would probably be expensive but viable).
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AfterCrescent

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Re: The Swift Hunter's Handbook
« Reply #24 on: May 23, 2008, 03:24:10 AM »
Winged Creature from Savage Species is +dex and winged. +2 LA is bought off by level 9 too.
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ZeroSum

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Re: The Swift Hunter's Handbook
« Reply #25 on: May 23, 2008, 07:33:25 PM »
I did make a Winged Great Flyby Elf for strafing runs with a spiked chain some time back as Qaetar.  I'll search and see if I can find it.

Edit:  Can't find it easily.  But the basic hinged upon Winged + Spiked Chain to attack as many creatures as Great Flyby would allow in one line.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2008, 07:40:47 PM by ZeroSum »

Optimator

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Re: The Swift Hunter's Handbook
« Reply #26 on: May 23, 2008, 11:08:16 PM »
Like an upside-down helicopter...

Shadowhunter

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Re: The Swift Hunter's Handbook
« Reply #27 on: August 03, 2008, 02:51:09 AM »
Whilst I know it's standard to go Scout 3/Ranger 1/Scout +1 to gain Swift Hunter as a bonus feat at level five, I do belive I have an alternative.
Going Scout 3/Ranger 6, whilst using up your 6th level slot for Swift Hunter, can gain Greater Manyshot at lvl 9 instead of 12.
We gain 2 out of 3 feats from ranger levels and Precise Shot can be bought with a feat at lvl 1 or 3. The BAB is covered with ranger levels alone.
The dex, if high enough, is not a problem. If you can't raise it to 17 at lvl 9, I do feel you have a bit of a "swimming upstreams" situation.

This have its pros and cons:

Pro: We gain Greater Manyshot 3 levels earlier, drastically improving our combat potential earlier in the game.
Waiting one level (6 instead of 5) to gain one part of the combo in exhange to get the other part 3 levels earlier, I do belive pays of.

Cons: Takes up more general feats. This might be a problem for feat-starved builds, but they can hopefully wait until lvl 12 to get G.Manyshot.
Forced to wait for Swift Hunter one more level, which may or may not be a problem.


As a personal preference, I like Scout 6/Ranger 14, since I find Flawless stride to be quite nice.
Same BaB as 5/15, saves at 11/14/6 instead of 10/13/6 for the IMHO rather low cost of 1 level 4 spell per day.

Whilst Flawless Stride may not matter much for regular Skirmish, if you are trying to activate Improved Skirmish, you might need it.
Besides, let's face it:
It is by no means bad.
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Dictum Mortuum

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Re: The Swift Hunter's Handbook
« Reply #28 on: August 03, 2008, 02:33:08 PM »
Greater manyshot however, is bad. It requires many levels to function properly and like in your example you need to rush things. Now swift hunters use rapid shot + travel devotion. Simple, elegant and doesn't require many feats.
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Hallack

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Re: The Swift Hunter's Handbook
« Reply #29 on: August 03, 2008, 02:50:09 PM »
I prefer the swift move options opened up by ToB.  Sudden Leap is available with a one level dip, even at first level.  Press the Advantage stance allows for 10ft step  instead of normal 5 ft step (doesn't even use up a swift action).  Quick Silver motion allows for a movement action as a swift action.  Press the Advantage I think is 5th level and Quick Silver Motion is 7th so both require a substantial character level to attain however.

But these could all be used at least once every other round as well.  Much nicer than 1/d Travel Devotion.
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Dictum Mortuum

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Re: The Swift Hunter's Handbook
« Reply #30 on: August 03, 2008, 05:39:33 PM »
  • Sudden Leap - 1st level - Tiger Claw: Works, but you must figure out a way to get the maneuver every round. It's only available to swordsages (requires adaptive style to go for full-round) and warblades (you are required to use a swift action and then make a successful melee attack to regain maneuvers).
  • Press the Advantage - 5th level stance - White Raven: Works great, but doesn't activate improved skirmish. Requires IL 11, so if you dip crusader/warblade you'll get it at 10th level or so. Also you cannot get a higher that level 1 stance on the 1st level dip, so it either requires more levels (less swift hunter benefits) or you need to get another feat. This is probably the best option of the three.
  • Quicksilver Motion - 7th level - Diamond Mind: Requires 15 IL to get, can't do that with a swift hunter and a dip.

Things to consider about cloistered cleric + travel devotion:
  • 6+int skills and better specials. The ToB classes offer some great stuff, but nothing can be compared to travel devotion, knowledge devotion and one bonus domain.
  • Use wands and other useful cleric only activated items
  • You can get 3 travel devotion uses per day with 12 cha, which is fairly easy
  • You can start using it when you'll get your first iterative attack at level 7-8
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Hallack

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Re: The Swift Hunter's Handbook
« Reply #31 on: August 03, 2008, 06:50:43 PM »
* Sudden Leap- for a swifthunter I figure Warblade for its mechanic is the best choice.  While it would be nice to be able to do it every round to trigger skirmish I don't consider it a 'must'.  So here a 1 level Warblade dip gives the ability to full attack + move every other round.  Seems this could work great for both melee or ranged swifthunter.  Probably best for the ranged due to the generally safer positioning.

* Press the Advantage- Actually this one only requires and IL 9.  So 16 swifthunter levels plus 1 Warblade can provide access to this stance.  I do not see how the 5ft+ 5ft would not trigger skirmish (so long as moved 10 ft from starting position).

* Quicksilver Motion - This only requires IL 13.  I agree it's level investment probably takes too many Swifthunter levels but it is certainly an option.  Combined with Sudden leap could even give full attack skirmishes on 2 subsequent rounds with a third round used to recover.   But it is MUCH more demanding of levels.  It would take 6 levels of Warblade to get it at 20th level which may be more skirmish than many are willing to give up, especially for a 20 level wait.

I guess probably one of the biggest differences in choosing between travel devotion route and ToB route is a flavor preference for ones characters.  My preference just happens to be a non-caster flavor which ToB fits while getting what I want for the character ( :) Min/maxed within the limits of my preferences).

By no means will I downplay the travel devotion route, it is very nice.
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Dictum Mortuum

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Re: The Swift Hunter's Handbook
« Reply #32 on: August 03, 2008, 07:09:01 PM »
If you like sudden leap, then why don't you just move and attack without dipping anything :P? It's just not optimal.
You are right about the IL, i got them wrong. For some reason i thought they were like wizard spell aquisition + 2.
As i said, your first stance must be a level 1 one. So 1 level of warblade only won't help you. Also i was only talking about improved skirmish, which requires 20ft to activate. And being able to make use of your skirmish on full attacks on level 17 isn't exactly helpful.

I'm sorry, but when i write a guide, i don't like taking sides (as much as i can anyway). If you look at both ways, travel devotion is easy and optimal while ToB has many problems. Many people like to say "i don't like spells" or "i like martial flavor", when in fact personal opinion shouldn't take any part in this.
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Hallack

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Re: The Swift Hunter's Handbook
« Reply #33 on: August 03, 2008, 08:21:39 PM »
Yep, my bad on the 1 dip for the Press the advantage stance.  I know better but ...just got it wrong.  I agree that the later two are sub-optimal for a swifthunter (but not saying they are bad  :P ).

Why not just move and attack if going the Sudden leap route... well, the same reason for going travel devotion.  Full round action plus moving to activating skirmish. 

But so as to not clutter this great handbook I'll just leave my part at that unless something new comes up. 

Cheers.
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Ubernoob

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Re: The Swift Hunter's Handbook
« Reply #34 on: August 16, 2008, 06:46:48 PM »
Stuff
I like this route.  Travel devotion makes me feel dirty inside.
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Dictum Mortuum

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Re: The Swift Hunter's Handbook
« Reply #35 on: August 19, 2008, 11:23:38 AM »
I know that many of you don't like travel devotion. But it's the best either you like it or not. I *have* to point it out in the handbook. Just look at the facts:

  • point blank shot + rapid shot + travel devotion: 3 feats, most probably bonus feats from your classes. Attacks = full attack + 1 at -2 penalty, full skirmish. Requires a swift action to initiate.
  • manyshot + greater manyshot + rapid shot + point blank shot: 4 feats, you must take the ranged combat style (rapid shot can use TWF for more attacks) and most attacks are 4 at -8 penalty.
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Optimator

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Re: The Swift Hunter's Handbook
« Reply #36 on: August 19, 2008, 12:13:47 PM »
I feel the lack of a daily limit for the greater manyshot route makes it, on some levels, much more... comforting.  I know that--and this is all personal, anecdotal evidence--my DM throws extra daily encounters at parties who have access to CLW wands and have no theoretical daily limit on abilities.  It feels to me that going with Travel Devotion is like metaphorically putting all of one's eggs in one basket.

Dictum Mortuum

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Re: The Swift Hunter's Handbook
« Reply #37 on: August 19, 2008, 12:47:28 PM »
Well, if you got 3 uses per day, you're done for the majority of the encounters. You can then use items, like chronocharms (not that they are reliable, but they will enable you to skirmish at least one more time).
Manyshot on the other hand, unless you find a decent way to boost your attack rolls, is not reliable. For just two attacks it requires a whooping -4 penalty on attack rolls. For the maximum of four attacks it bestows a -8 penalty on each arrow. Sometimes you are better off moving and shooting just one arrow than shooting multiple arrows.

For example:

Let's say you are a swift hunter, 3 scout/6 ranger with greater manyshot. BAB is 8, so that means just 2 arrows. Let's say you got a to hit roll of +13 (+1 bow, +1 point blank, +3 dexterity, +8 bab) and you are facing an enemy with ~25 AC. That means that if you use manyshot, you get a 25% chance to hit the target with each arrow. Average damage per hit is (let's assume average bow damage is 5) 15,5 (skirmish damage is 3d6 at this level). So, 15,5 + 15,5 = 31 if we multiply it by 0,25 (chance to hit) = 7,75. Now, the same character without manyshot has a 45% chance, which means 6,95 average damage after chance to hit is applied. As you can see, the difference between the two is less than one point of damage when you first get greater manyshot.
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Ubernoob

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Re: The Swift Hunter's Handbook
« Reply #38 on: August 19, 2008, 11:02:39 PM »
I know that many of you don't like travel devotion. But it's the best either you like it or not. I *have* to point it out in the handbook. Just look at the facts:

  • point blank shot + rapid shot + travel devotion: 3 feats, most probably bonus feats from your classes. Attacks = full attack + 1 at -2 penalty, full skirmish. Requires a swift action to initiate.
  • manyshot + greater manyshot + rapid shot + point blank shot: 4 feats, you must take the ranged combat style (rapid shot can use TWF for more attacks) and most attacks are 4 at -8 penalty.
Well, duh.  I said it makes me feel dirty.  It just feels like cheating to me.  Not that I wouldn't suggest it to someone else, but I don't want to use it myself.
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Dictum Mortuum

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Re: The Swift Hunter's Handbook
« Reply #39 on: August 20, 2008, 12:56:27 AM »
Well, duh.  I said it makes me feel dirty.  It just feels like cheating to me.  Not that I wouldn't suggest it to someone else, but I don't want to use it myself.

Obviously you're not the only poster here  :looloo
And of course, moving as a swift action some minutes per day is not cheating. This just gives you some bonus dice to damage and a couple of points to your AC. The synergy is great, since they complement each other. For example, shadowcraft mages need their earth spell. Chargers need their lion totem barbarian dip. Incantatrixes need their custom magic spellcraft item. DMM persistent for clerics and the list goes on. However note that swift hunter + travel devotion hardly tops any of the above.
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