Author Topic: Talking Shop: Magic vs Mundanes (Tiered Gestalt as Remedy)  (Read 9013 times)

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SiggyDevil

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Re: Talking Shop: Magic vs Mundanes (Tiered Gestalt as Remedy)
« Reply #40 on: December 05, 2010, 03:34:27 AM »
Eeerrr, that's how it already works! By RAW clerics can't cast spells of their oposite alignment!


Eh.. right. I think I meant Neutral Clerics, unsure if they can cast both or neither. I know they get choice of Undead treatment.

JaronK

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Re: Talking Shop: Magic vs Mundanes (Tiered Gestalt as Remedy)
« Reply #41 on: December 09, 2010, 09:45:16 PM »
I'd like the BAB for feats instead of HD thing more if it wouldn't screw Monks, Rogues, and Soulknifes.  Plus, there are various effects that alter BAB... what does a Cleric with Persistant Divine Power do?  It's up all day long...

Slowing casting rate for the "I get to cast everything" guys seems to work.  After all, the Factotum's not too bad.  Even just making it so you gained a new spell level every 3 levels instead of every two would work (so you hit 2nd level spells at level 6).  The Sorcerer could maybe still have his normal cast rate, so Wizards, Clerics, Druids, and Archivists would be slow but have bredth, while Sorcerers and Favored Souls would have depth in their areas.  Healers... we'll just give them the full casting, okay?

Of course, there's something to be said for simply saying "screw it, make your characters with T3 and T4 classes only.  Done."  It's not like there's any character archetype missing if you do that.  The "call upon the powers of the gods" guy is the Crusader, though.

JaronK


RobbyPants

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Re: Talking Shop: Magic vs Mundanes (Tiered Gestalt as Remedy)
« Reply #43 on: December 10, 2010, 10:03:50 AM »
Dare I suggest the 1st & 2nd Edition approach of different classes needing different xp to level?  I guess the thought in 3.x was that everyone was equal now, but that turned out not to be true.
It makes multiclassing a pain in the ass.

Yet somehow our brave forefathers found a way to do it in previous editions (although I have to say that I forget what that was).
Actually, they didn't make it work.  They just made it look like it worked and back then, you were called a munchkin or a min-maxer if you found ways to subvert the system.  So people would write Fighter/Mage on their character sheet and just pretend it was as good as writing Fighter or Mage and called it a day.

The AD&D method of multiclassing was to convince you that writing Fighter 3/Mage 3 on your sheet was as good as writing Fighter 4 or Mage 4.  AD&D multiclassing was like a weird version of gestalt where you average stuff instead of take the best, and you split your XP in half on two separate progressions.

Also, their XP tables were weird as hell.  They started out semi-predictable in that wizards advanced the slowest, and thieves advanced the fastest, but then the rates actually change at various levels.  A wizard starts out behind a fighter, then pulls ahead for literally no reason at level 8, then falls behind again at level 15.  See this thread for a side-by-side comparison.

I like 2E because fighters and blaster wizards were quite viable concepts.  I don't like it for the multiclassing and arbitrary XP. ;)
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Tenebrus

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Re: Talking Shop: Magic vs Mundanes (Tiered Gestalt as Remedy)
« Reply #44 on: December 10, 2010, 10:33:38 AM »
I have a hard time accepting classes as a concept and support the easiest possible multi-classing, particularly for non-casters.  Most players can read the tables and realize that the best progress for a caster is still more caster.  So maybe we just need an xp chart for casters and one for non-casters?  Just brain-storming here.

RobbyPants

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Re: Talking Shop: Magic vs Mundanes (Tiered Gestalt as Remedy)
« Reply #45 on: December 10, 2010, 11:39:10 AM »
Why not just alter spell progression instead?  If you put them on something closer to a bard's spell progression (or some other slowed down model), you'd get the same effect without messing with their HD, saves, and skills.  Also it would make multiclassing easier.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Talking Shop: Magic vs Mundanes (Tiered Gestalt as Remedy)
« Reply #46 on: December 10, 2010, 05:16:55 PM »
So people would write Fighter/Mage on their character sheet and just pretend it was as good as writing Fighter or Mage and called it a day.

The AD&D method of multiclassing was to convince you that writing Fighter 3/Mage 3 on your sheet was as good as writing Fighter 4 or Mage 4.  AD&D multiclassing was like a weird version of gestalt where you average stuff instead of take the best, and you split your XP in half on two separate progressions.
It was actually pretty decently balanced, overall.

Dual-classing, on the other hand.
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Talking Shop: Magic vs Mundanes (Tiered Gestalt as Remedy)
« Reply #47 on: December 10, 2010, 05:21:42 PM »
So people would write Fighter/Mage on their character sheet and just pretend it was as good as writing Fighter or Mage and called it a day.

The AD&D method of multiclassing was to convince you that writing Fighter 3/Mage 3 on your sheet was as good as writing Fighter 4 or Mage 4.  AD&D multiclassing was like a weird version of gestalt where you average stuff instead of take the best, and you split your XP in half on two separate progressions.
It was actually pretty decently balanced, overall.

Dual-classing, on the other hand.
Riiiight. Duel classing was like leveling from 1 to X, then restarting with a whole different class at 1st level, and then once you hit level X with that, you basically got to have your cake and eat it to. So you end up with a partially gestated character eventually, but only have to earn as much XP as a single-classed character from then on to level up. It was kind of nuts.

Multiclassing was definitely more balanced, I think. The racial level caps were stupid, though. Even worse than favored classes, which is pretty amazing.   :shakefist
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]


The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Talking Shop: Magic vs Mundanes (Tiered Gestalt as Remedy)
« Reply #49 on: December 10, 2010, 11:25:30 PM »
Well, nobody actually played AD&D unmodified.  The philosophy regarding the rules and the game itself was rather different
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Tenebrus

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Re: Talking Shop: Magic vs Mundanes (Tiered Gestalt as Remedy)
« Reply #50 on: December 11, 2010, 04:03:48 AM »
+1 on racial caps.  Think of the 200 year old Dwarven fighter who has nothing left to learn because ... he is a dwarf.  The very worst of racial determinism.  "I'm sorry, since you're Belgian, you can only have a maximum of 7 levels in Pediatrician ..."

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Talking Shop: Magic vs Mundanes (Tiered Gestalt as Remedy)
« Reply #51 on: December 11, 2010, 04:08:18 AM »
+1 on racial caps.  Think of the 200 year old Dwarven fighter who has nothing left to learn because ... he is a dwarf.  The very worst of racial determinism.  "I'm sorry, since you're Belgian, you can only have a maximum of 7 levels in Pediatrician ..."
Well, the alternative is elves and dwarves taking over the world with their long lifespans allowing higher levels.
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My custom class: The Priest of the Unseen Host
Planetouched Handbook
Want to improve your character?  Then die.


The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Talking Shop: Magic vs Mundanes (Tiered Gestalt as Remedy)
« Reply #53 on: December 12, 2010, 05:24:40 AM »
An elf or dwarf lifespan lasts only as long as they don't encounter a battle they lose.
And?  If you're a high level character you're going to be less likely to lose battles.
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My custom class: The Priest of the Unseen Host
Planetouched Handbook
Want to improve your character?  Then die.

RobbyPants

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Re: Talking Shop: Magic vs Mundanes (Tiered Gestalt as Remedy)
« Reply #54 on: December 13, 2010, 09:55:52 AM »
Dual-classing, on the other hand.
No kidding.  I played 2E for about seven years, and it took me about six (sadly) to realize how awesome it was potentially.  I kept seeing all the limitations and thinking "no way".  Suddenly, when you have a 7th level PC retire and the DM tell you to roll up a new 7th level PC that dual classing looks awesome!

Also, it's not so bad if you jump out really quickly after picking up the good stuff of a front-loaded class, and then jump into something else.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]


Tenebrus

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Re: Talking Shop: Magic vs Mundanes (Tiered Gestalt as Remedy)
« Reply #56 on: December 14, 2010, 01:49:33 AM »
+1 on racial caps.  Think of the 200 year old Dwarven fighter who has nothing left to learn because ... he is a dwarf.  The very worst of racial determinism.  "I'm sorry, since you're Belgian, you can only have a maximum of 7 levels in Pediatrician ..."
Well, the alternative is elves and dwarves taking over the world with their long lifespans allowing higher levels.

I've always thought that humans and orcs bury them with sheer numbers.

SiggyDevil

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Re: Talking Shop: Magic vs Mundanes (Tiered Gestalt as Remedy)
« Reply #57 on: December 14, 2010, 02:17:40 AM »
I've always thought that humans and orcs bury them with sheer numbers.

Indeed, if it takes five times longer to reach adulthood, it takes five times longer to reach breeding age.

And people wonder why there are so many goblins and kobolds.