Talking Shop: Magic vs Mundanes (Tiered Gestalt as Remedy)

[Necrosnoop110]

I've seen this brought up before in many different places but I just wanted to know what your guys thoughts on the matter were. In regards to the imbalance between the variant strengths of classes, i.e. tiers, how far do gestalt characters go in solving this problem?  

I was thinking something like:

Tiered Gestalt
Side A: Tier 1 or 2 // Side B: Tier 3 or lower

or even further to my point:

Tiered Gestalt
Side A: Tier 1 or 2 Full Caster Only // Side B: Tier 3 or lower Non-Caster Only


Seems like it might really help in balancing out the power levels of the characters at the table and allowing the PCs to use classes without fear of falling behind in effectiveness.

Thoughts?

Peace,
Necro

[bearchucks]

I seem to recall this being investigated.

The upshot most people agreed as not breaking things was...
T1 or T2...you get that class.  Once.  No gestalt for you.  You've got crazy stuff as is.
T3 or T4...may gestalt with an NPC class (Expert+Warblade, for example)
T5 or T6...may gestalt with another T5 or T6 class.

[Necrosnoop110]

I seem to recall this being investigated.

The upshot most people agreed as not breaking things was...
T1 or T2...you get that class.  Once.  No gestalt for you.  You've got crazy stuff as is.
T3 or T4...may gestalt with an NPC class (Expert+Warblade, for example)
T5 or T6...may gestalt with another T5 or T6 class.

Yes, from the thread linked in the op

Option #2: Partial Gestalt. Tier 1s and 2s are normal. Tier 3s and 4s may gestalt their levels with an NPC class of their choice (Adept, Expert, Commoner, or Warrior). Tier 5s and 6s may gestalt their levels with any other Tier 5 or 6 class of their choice, or Adepts. Result? Again, a healthy power boost for the low Tiers. Suddenly the Rogues can have full BAB and lots of hitpoints, and the Monks can have Fighter powers too. Very handy. Plus, multiclassing works... it's just that if you start as a Fighter//Monk and want to take a level of, say, Ranger, that level must have an NPC class on the other side. If for some reason you wanted Sorcerer, you wouldn't be gestalt at all in that level. Lord knows Fighters get a lot better when they can be Fighter//Monks or Fighter//CA Ninjas or whatever.

But I was interested in going even farther down that line of thinking and setting a game up where all PCs must gestalt with Side A: Tier 1 & 2 Full Caster Only and Side B: Tier 3 or lower non-caster. My thinking is that this grants everyone access to the high level powers that even a Fighter/Monk, despite their robustness, will never reach. This way all characters at the table are "over powered" by design. The old if you can't fight em, join em, mentality.   

[SiggyDevil]

Tried this in a high level (15) one-shot session. It works well.

However, no matter how balanced your classes are, it means jack if you become petrified by a Sorcerer while flying a mile up just because you failed a save.

IMO the spells are still a problem (I'm working on that) but at least it brings up the non-full-casters.

[Akahi]

Is there a spell that petrifies you without a save (NOT sarcasm, I actually don't know, magic ain't my thing, I prefer kung-fu... read ToB) ??
Because if there isn't then you have multiple resources to boost a save or become immune.
I think that yes, spells are overpowered, but if everyone gets the same toys (or different toys of the same quality) then it balances in the end

[SiggyDevil]

"Flesh to Stone" requires a Fortitude save. Medusa (the real Gorgon. Cmon.) and the stone-bull Gorgon has Fortitude save.

My example of effects that occur even with a successful save include many Fear effects, and "Destruction" (Die or take 10d6)

[Tenebrus]

I was also thinking about sort of the opposite of this.  I've never done gestalt, and the concept makes me uneasy.  What if the DM strongly encouraged (okay, forced) casters to take a non-caster level every 4 (or whatever) levels or so?

The experts out there agree that a 10th level caster demolishes a 10th level fighter.  At what point are they equal?  Caster 7/Fighter 10?  Caster 5/Fighter 10?  Some would argue that they are never equal, if the caster has the right spells.  But for the sake of argument, how'd you think a fighter 10 vs Caster-7/Pick-3 (rogue, fighter, or variant thereof) would work?  You tell the players that your trying to enhance their gaming experience, hope they go along, and justify it in game in a few ways.  

Also, has anyone raised the idea of just not placing magic items for Tier 1&2 characters?  If you want them, you'll need the craft feats and that should delay your march to magical awesome godhood.  Particularly if you up the costs in xp, time, etc.

[SiggyDevil]

Trust me, a gestalt Fighter 10/ Wizard 5 still doesn't match the power of a single classed Wizard 10.

They're better off than a Fighter 10/Barbarian 5, though. Much so.

Denying casters their items would be unfair, but perhaps limiting which kinds they get would cut down the cheese.
For instance, no metamagic rods.

[Tenebrus]

Unfair?  Extremism in defense of Game Balance is no vice! 

You need smart mature players who get what you're trying to do.  It's reasonable to me to declare that mages make mage items for themselves but items for others to sell, making it very hard to find items that benefit casters relative to those to benefit others.

And I sure agree about MM rods.

[SiggyDevil]

You could cut the full caster cash per level in half, leave some alone (Bard, Rogue, Warlock, etc) and double that of the other classes (mostly full BAB classes and Monk).

[Tenebrus]

Or double the prices for T1-2 class magic items?  Would cash/level enter into an ongoing campaign, or just one where you start at X level?

[SiggyDevil]

How would you determine which items are Tier 1/2 or not? There's a lot of crossover.

Granted, some are obvious such as metamagic or spell-activation, but stat boosters are damned common and jacking those prices affects non-casters too.

I realize that adjusting wealth by level would be a temporary fix since (generous) team mates could just loan the cash, but still... that's a variable. The guarantee is that they have less and need to make shit themselves if they want it.

Ultimately, it's the dumbass warriors that need the most since they can't steal or emulate it as easily with their class levels.


Here's the chart in case anyone wants it. Not listed in SRD due to legality or whatever.

 2    900
 3   2700
 4   5400
 5   9000
 6  13000
 7  19000
 8  27000
 9  36000
10  49000
11  66000
12  88000
13 110000
14 150000
15 200000
16 260000
17 340000
18 440000
19 580000
20 760000



And here's the adjusted wealth per caster level progression:

Non-caster to less than 3/4 caster
 2   1800
 3   5400
 4  10800
 5  18000
 6  23000
 7  38000
 8  54000
 9  72000
10  98000
11 132000
12 176000
13 220000
14 300000
15 400000
16 520000
17 680000
18 880000
19 1160000
20 1520000

3/4 caster to no more than 2 levels below maximum full caster
 2    900
 3   2700
 4   5400
 5   9000
 6  13000
 7  19000
 8  27000
 9  36000
10  49000
11  66000
12  88000
13 110000
14 150000
15 200000
16 260000
17 340000
18 440000
19 580000
20 760000

Full caster
 2    450
 3   1350
 4   2700
 5   4500
 6   6500
 7   9500
 8  13500
 9  18000
10  24500
11  33000
12  44000
13  55000
14  75000
15 100000
16 130000
17 170000
18 220000
19 290000
20 380000

[JaronK]

The biggest issue with the OP idea is that not all players want to be casters, but you've just required as much.  That's liable to come up.

JaronK

[Tenebrus]

I think we were talking about making the casters diversify and letting the others focus.  And it's all based on players -- or at least the one(s) playing casters -- to get what you're trying to do.  You have to essentially convince them that de-optimizing is in the best interest of the game.  That takes a rare player, but has anyone seen a mechanical fix for the problem we're talking about (bringing fighters back to relevance)? 

[SiggyDevil]

I'd prefer if everyone got spells, but the dedicated single-class casters got to know/ready more of them.

For instance a Fighter/Wizard would be full Wizard but only know half the spells. They'd get by but not as well.

[lans]

I'm really not sure if any number of tier 5 classes thrown into a gestalt can match being 2/3s of the way to god. Maybe with certain spells toned down some. Doesn't have to be as much as if the casters were gonna get knocked down fully.

Infinite money spells
Called creature spells
Explosive runes can't be cast more than once on an object
Polymorph line explicitly doesn't give spell casting.
Nerf some of the nonsave crap. Either give it a save or reduce it. For Example make Alarm give -20 to Stealth or what have you.

[Prime32]

I've seen

1 (no gestalt)
2//6
3//5 or 6
4//4, 5 or 6

as one system. So you could have a wizard, or a sorcerer//samurai.

[SiggyDevil]

Nerf some of the nonsave crap. Either give it a save or reduce it. For Example make Alarm give -20 to Stealth or what have you.

That might be my next project...

[PhaedrusXY]

has anyone seen a mechanical fix for the problem we're talking about (bringing fighters back to relevance)? 

Lots. All of the decent ones are fairly complicated. The "Tome" series is probably the best starting point, but it has a few holes that need patching. Here's my version of it. Tome of Battle is also a decent start, but doesn't really go far enough, and it of course doesn't nerf the worst spells, either.

[Tenebrus]

ToB has really grown on me and I am familiar with it.  I'm also liking what I've read on other boards, that the new casters (Beguiler, Warmage, Dread Necro, etc.) are more balanced.  They don't have access to all the toys so they are good in their area of focus and less god-like outside of it.

Maybe focus is the solution.  Focused melee fighters (Duskblade; Fighter=Warblade, Paladin=Crusader, Rangers & Monks=Swordsage) that have been stepped up and focused casters (Warlock, Beguiler, Warmage, etc.) that have been narrowed, sort of a formalized specialist system.

Sorcerers would get access to almost nothing, then pick a heritage (per Pathfinder) to add their main abilities based on some affiliation (fire, shadow, fey, fiends, celestials, etc).

Rogues sort of self-focus.  A frame that let everyone do that could work too.

Feedback?

Not sure what I'd do for clerics, but it seems like Domain spells should be most of your magic rather than an add-on.  And spontaneous cure would go, since clerics don't need the help.  Wildshape would be an option for Druids, and selecting it would cost you 1 spell per level, permanently.