Author Topic: Summon Monster and SNA -- a Revision.  (Read 1983 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

wotmaniac

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2207
  • Emperor's Enforcer
Summon Monster and SNA -- a Revision.
« on: November 30, 2010, 04:35:15 PM »
Here I go again .... I just can't leave well enough alone.
While I was researching a possible summoner NPC, and perusing the XPH, I realized that I was dissatisfied with the Summon Monster and Summon Nature's Ally lines of spells.

Hows about just having each of those being 1 spell (i.e., summon monster is just 1 spell, and SNA is just 1 spell)?
And have the creatures available to you be dependent upon what level slot you use to cast it.

This does 2 things:
1) makes summoning actually viable for sorcerers -and- opens-up spellbook space for wizards/archivists
2) opens summoning up to some real metamagic abuse.
The first one is the intended result.  The second is an unfortunate side-effect (or fortunate, depending on how you look at it ;)).

With MM abuse in mind, I also thought of another glitch -- I can already foresee players being like "well, then, why can't I cast other spells in higher level slots to get better effects?"
The fix for this would be simple: require Heighten Spell to get the bigger monsters.  This "fix" covers two things:
1) the feat tax helps to curb severe MM abuse, but is not overly abusive to the feat economy
2) quiets the cries of "fairness"  :eh

But then that gets me to thinking -- there should surely be some sort of benefit to casting in a higher level slot without Heighten.  What I've come up with is simply giving +2 HP and +1 to hit, damage, and AC per increased spell level.
You could even mix/match.  For example, you could Heighten to 4th level to get a 4th level creature, and then cast it in a 6th level slot to get +4 HP and +2 to hit, damage, and AC.

**side note: for those already seeing DMM abuse, I must go ahead and let you in on my group's standing houserule ... at our table, DMM can only be used on spells that you would normally be able to use the given MM feat.  For example, the highest level spell that a 10th-level cleric could DMM-Maximize would still be a 2nd-level spell.  Incidentally, we've, in turn, also made it so that you only have to take DMM once and can be used on any/all of your MM feats.**
If you don't like the DMM houserule, then you could always simply rule that DMM-Heighten cannot be used on these newly-revised summon spells; or that if you do use it, you only get the non-heighten benefits.
Come to think of it, that should probably be done anyway, regardless of which version of DMM you use.

So, what do you think?  :)

« Last Edit: November 30, 2010, 04:41:31 PM by wotmaniac »

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

Greenbound Summoning RAI
Expanded Gestalt
More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
Report any wrongs I have done here.

SiggyDevil

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1111
  • Magmar, the ultimate butthead
    • Feybook Project
Re: Summon Monster and SNA -- a Revision.
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2010, 08:15:51 PM »
Can't find the thread in which I posted this here earlier, but I did do this...


SUMMONS

Summon Monster
Conjuration (Summoning)
Level 1 Arcane spell
Verbal, Somatic
Casting Time: 1 full-round action
Range: Close
Target: One summoned monster
Duration: Concentration + 1 round per level (D)

Summon a single Outsider, Elemental, or Aberration. The monster's HD or CR may not be higher than the character's level.
Each time this spell is learned, choose a new monster. The character must have encountered the monster previously.


Nature's Ally
Conjuration (Summoning)
Level 1 Divine spell
Verbal, Somatic
Casting Time: 1 full-round action
Range: Close
Target: One summoned animal
Duration: Concentration + 1 round per level (D)

Summon a single average Animal, Dire Animal, Magical Beast, or Vermin. The animal's HD or CR may not be higher than the character's level.
Each time this spell is learned, choose a new animal. The character must have encountered the animal previously.

wotmaniac

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2207
  • Emperor's Enforcer
Re: Summon Monster and SNA -- a Revision.
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2010, 11:57:05 AM »
looks cool, but seems to be a bit much for just a 1st-level spell.  Seriously, what other 1st-level spells scale like that?

Thanks, though.

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

Greenbound Summoning RAI
Expanded Gestalt
More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
Report any wrongs I have done here.


wotmaniac

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2207
  • Emperor's Enforcer
Re: Summon Monster and SNA -- a Revision.
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2010, 08:19:32 PM »
well, that's pretty much the case anyway.  isn't it? :shrug

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

Greenbound Summoning RAI
Expanded Gestalt
More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
Report any wrongs I have done here.

Gnorman

  • Domesticated Capuchin Monkey
  • **
  • Posts: 111
  • I'm a monster. Rawr.
Re: Summon Monster and SNA -- a Revision.
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2010, 06:57:36 PM »
Well, the fix doesn't really do anything for your bog-standard druid (as they can spontaneously cast it anyway), and I don't like feat taxes in general for specific archetypes (forcing all summoners to take Heighten Spell isn't quite that fun), but I do agree that for a sorcerer or a favored soul, it would be worth it.

Honestly, though, summon spells scale at about a scale of CR = 1/2 CL, so "The monster's HD or CR may not be higher than the character's level" is actually quite an improvement rather than a limitation. Suddenly I can summon a bone devil with SM V? That seems overpowered to the extreme.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2010, 06:59:29 PM by Gnorman »