Author Topic: Planar Shepherd + Mechanus for WS Modrons = HIGH caster levels?  (Read 7589 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

BeholderSlayer

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1258
Re: Planar Shepherd + Mechanus for WS Modrons = HIGH caster levels?
« Reply #20 on: November 30, 2010, 12:33:52 PM »
Plus, the lower level ones are all Living Constructs, but just when they become playable and Rogue, IIRC. They're still Outsiders while part of the Source, no?
I don't think they have to be rogue to be a living construct. Dragon lists them as still constructs with the extraplanar subtype even when they aren't rogue.

I do have to agree with your sentiments about the hierarchs all being unique.

Also, as far as if Dragon isn't in play: a DM that won't allow Dragon material is certainly going to laugh at you and veto when you claim, through wildshape, you can cast as a 20th level sorcerer and have a bunch of spells known that you didn't know before.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2010, 01:05:47 PM by BeholderSlayer »
Hi Welcome
[spoiler]
Allow me to welcome you both with my literal words and with an active display of how much you fit in by being tone deaf, dumb, and uncritical of your babbling myself.[/spoiler]

bearsarebrown

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2616
Re: Planar Shepherd + Mechanus for WS Modrons = HIGH caster levels?
« Reply #21 on: November 30, 2010, 01:39:39 PM »
Technically, all the higher up modrons are Unique. There's an exact amount of them, a specific upgrade order (from a lower ranking Modron, ALWAYS), and each is accounted for. It's like saying you'd want to become Secundus #3 - since there simply is no such thing as a "general" Secundus.
With the exception of those native to infinite planes, this is true for all races.

BeholderSlayer

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1258
Re: Planar Shepherd + Mechanus for WS Modrons = HIGH caster levels?
« Reply #22 on: November 30, 2010, 01:46:22 PM »
Technically, all the higher up modrons are Unique. There's an exact amount of them, a specific upgrade order (from a lower ranking Modron, ALWAYS), and each is accounted for. It's like saying you'd want to become Secundus #3 - since there simply is no such thing as a "general" Secundus.
With the exception of those native to infinite planes, this is true for all races.
Not exactly, there are a specific number of secundi, whereas there aren't necessarily an exact set number of any natives of non-infinite planes, at least not down to the level of stating "There are 8."
Hi Welcome
[spoiler]
Allow me to welcome you both with my literal words and with an active display of how much you fit in by being tone deaf, dumb, and uncritical of your babbling myself.[/spoiler]

Bauglir

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2346
  • TriOptimum
Re: Planar Shepherd + Mechanus for WS Modrons = HIGH caster levels?
« Reply #23 on: November 30, 2010, 02:00:49 PM »
Technically, all the higher up modrons are Unique. There's an exact amount of them, a specific upgrade order (from a lower ranking Modron, ALWAYS), and each is accounted for. It's like saying you'd want to become Secundus #3 - since there simply is no such thing as a "general" Secundus.
With the exception of those native to infinite planes, this is true for all races.
Not exactly, there are a specific number of secundi, whereas there aren't necessarily an exact set number of any natives of non-infinite planes, at least not down to the level of stating "There are 8."

But each one is interchangeable with any other, and if one is killed another creature is immediately substituted for it.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

bearsarebrown

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2616
Re: Planar Shepherd + Mechanus for WS Modrons = HIGH caster levels?
« Reply #24 on: November 30, 2010, 02:12:05 PM »
Not exactly, there are a specific number of secundi, whereas there aren't necessarily an exact set number of any natives of non-infinite planes, at least not down to the level of stating "There are 8."
Why is "There are 8" any different from "There are 7 billion"?

Anything more then ONE is not unique.

Bauglir

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2346
  • TriOptimum
Re: Planar Shepherd + Mechanus for WS Modrons = HIGH caster levels?
« Reply #25 on: November 30, 2010, 02:28:09 PM »
Exactly. If each Secundus was listed as having a few class levels or something, to differentiate it from other Secundi, then each would be a unique creature. But as far as I'm aware, they all have precisely the same stats.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

PhaedrusXY

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 8022
  • Advanced Spambot
Re: Planar Shepherd + Mechanus for WS Modrons = HIGH caster levels?
« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2010, 03:03:49 PM »
Man... I totally have to get my hands on this dragon 354 now... Not for the higher level ones. I just want the lower level ones for Alter Self abuse. :P

Did they change much, except for the types?
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

BeholderSlayer

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1258
Re: Planar Shepherd + Mechanus for WS Modrons = HIGH caster levels?
« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2010, 04:18:51 PM »
Man... I totally have to get my hands on this dragon 354 now... Not for the higher level ones. I just want the lower level ones for Alter Self abuse. :P

Did they change much, except for the types?
Not a whole lot. They keep All-Around Vision and Multiweapon Fighting. In the rewrite, SUPERIOR multiweapon fighting was changed to just multiweapon fighting, but I'm not sure if that affects anything. I think they did change some of the speeds. Modrons also gained a quality that automatically sets their initiative to half HD + any bonuses, so they never roll for initiative. Certain modrons gained an ability called Repetitive Attack, which gants a +2 bonus to attack in the second round of a full-round attack on a creature, and any more full round attacks after that.

But yeah, the stuff you're probably most concerned about (natural armor and slam attacks) remain unchanged. Another living construct could Alter Self into a Pentadrone and gain +4 to natural armor and 5 slam attacks.
Hi Welcome
[spoiler]
Allow me to welcome you both with my literal words and with an active display of how much you fit in by being tone deaf, dumb, and uncritical of your babbling myself.[/spoiler]

BeholderSlayer

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1258
Re: Planar Shepherd + Mechanus for WS Modrons = HIGH caster levels?
« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2010, 04:22:37 PM »
Exactly. If each Secundus was listed as having a few class levels or something, to differentiate it from other Secundi, then each would be a unique creature. But as far as I'm aware, they all have precisely the same stats.
Perhaps true. However, that still doesn't change the fact that Wildshape isn't going to suddenly grant you a bunch of personally chosen arcane spells that you had no prior way of actually knowing how to cast.
Hi Welcome
[spoiler]
Allow me to welcome you both with my literal words and with an active display of how much you fit in by being tone deaf, dumb, and uncritical of your babbling myself.[/spoiler]

PhaedrusXY

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 8022
  • Advanced Spambot
Re: Planar Shepherd + Mechanus for WS Modrons = HIGH caster levels?
« Reply #29 on: November 30, 2010, 04:32:32 PM »
But yeah, the stuff you're probably most concerned about (natural armor and slam attacks) remain unchanged. Another living construct could Alter Self into a Pentadrone and gain +4 to natural armor and 5 slam attacks.
You wouldn't need to be a living construct, as Alter Self is unconcerned with subtypes. I was mostly looking at using this in a wizard/psion/cerebremancer build, to use Alter Self on the psicrystal.

It's a decent Alter Self form for any construct caster, though. The 2 or 3 HD version also has a fly speed, which is nice. I looked far and wide to find a damned construct with flight to Alter Self into with another character, and the only thing I could find was a "sheet-like" animated object... which sucks.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

BeholderSlayer

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1258
Re: Planar Shepherd + Mechanus for WS Modrons = HIGH caster levels?
« Reply #30 on: November 30, 2010, 04:38:17 PM »
But yeah, the stuff you're probably most concerned about (natural armor and slam attacks) remain unchanged. Another living construct could Alter Self into a Pentadrone and gain +4 to natural armor and 5 slam attacks.
You wouldn't need to be a living construct, as Alter Self is unconcerned with subtypes. I was mostly looking at using this in a wizard/psion/cerebremancer build, to use Alter Self on the psicrystal.

It's a decent Alter Self form for any construct caster, though. The 2 or 3 HD version also has a fly speed, which is nice. I looked far and wide to find a damned construct with flight to Alter Self into with another character, and the only thing I could find was a "sheet-like" animated object... which sucks.
Some of the speeds were changed, to summarize them quickly for purposes of alternate movement types:
Messenger Monodrones (1 hd) have 40 ft Fly (average) and 20 ft land speed
Tridrones (3 hd) have 30 ft land and 30 ft climb speeds
Winged Quadrones (4 hd) have 30 ft land and 30 ft Fly (poor)
Hi Welcome
[spoiler]
Allow me to welcome you both with my literal words and with an active display of how much you fit in by being tone deaf, dumb, and uncritical of your babbling myself.[/spoiler]

JohnnyMayHymn

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 503
  • Lord of the Kitchen Sink
Re: Planar Shepherd + Mechanus for WS Modrons = HIGH caster levels?
« Reply #31 on: November 30, 2010, 09:31:49 PM »
Exactly. If each Secundus was listed as having a few class levels or something, to differentiate it from other Secundi, then each would be a unique creature. But as far as I'm aware, they all have precisely the same stats.
Perhaps true. However, that still doesn't change the fact that Wildshape isn't going to suddenly grant you a bunch of personally chosen arcane spells that you had no prior way of actually knowing how to cast.
prior to the wildshape, you had no cleric or sorcerer casting levels either, a druid with sorcerer casting is ridiculous!  but after the outsider wildshape, you DO get ALL ex sp and su abilities of the new form, you're preconceived notions of what a druid or anything else is goes out the window
simply ignoring that fact or claiming a case for a 'sane' DM does not mean that this can never happen at any gaming table
broken? sure, the best optimization of caster levels? NO, will it spark an agreement to not use this? probably.

also, what about a gestalt game?  druid, planar shepherd// sorcerer     now can I use my already known spells in my spell slots?

at my table the DM is going to determine what spells are known either completely at random or at random from a list of spells that he would have modrons cast anyway, and in the same manner for other outsider forms, but I doubt that my power level will exceed the incantatrix or artificer
My (sometimes offensive) Web Comic Faux Blast
Can you find the Wumpus? (Hint: start with the spoiler....)
[spoiler] :beathorse [/spoiler]
...........  :joystick

Bauglir

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2346
  • TriOptimum
Re: Planar Shepherd + Mechanus for WS Modrons = HIGH caster levels?
« Reply #32 on: November 30, 2010, 09:59:28 PM »
A sorcerer of a given level simply knows his spells. He doesn't need to DO anything to learn them, other than be a certain level sorcerer. Thus, if you have the spellcasting of a sorcerer of a certain level, you simply know a certain number of spells. It doesn't make any less sense than suddenly knowing how to fly with any level of coordination because you turned into an angel. After all, spellcasting is instinctive to spontaneous casters. Now, a prepared caster on the other hand, has to spend time to prepare spells and thus does, indeed, need to spend an hour or what have you to fill those slots. I'm not saying it's balanced to gain spells and you probably won't get it to work in a game, but that is how the books apparently say it works.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

skydragonknight

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3297
Re: Planar Shepherd + Mechanus for WS Modrons = HIGH caster levels?
« Reply #33 on: November 30, 2010, 10:02:49 PM »
"I wild shape into this! Now I spend the next hour picking my spells" is a dick move and should get you ejected from the table whether it's rules legal or not.
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

BeholderSlayer

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1258
Re: Planar Shepherd + Mechanus for WS Modrons = HIGH caster levels?
« Reply #34 on: November 30, 2010, 10:04:03 PM »
Exactly. If each Secundus was listed as having a few class levels or something, to differentiate it from other Secundi, then each would be a unique creature. But as far as I'm aware, they all have precisely the same stats.
Perhaps true. However, that still doesn't change the fact that Wildshape isn't going to suddenly grant you a bunch of personally chosen arcane spells that you had no prior way of actually knowing how to cast.
prior to the wildshape, you had no cleric or sorcerer casting levels either, a druid with sorcerer casting is ridiculous!  but after the outsider wildshape, you DO get ALL ex sp and su abilities of the new form, you're preconceived notions of what a druid or anything else is goes out the window
simply ignoring that fact or claiming a case for a 'sane' DM does not mean that this can never happen at any gaming table
broken? sure, the best optimization of caster levels? NO, will it spark an agreement to not use this? probably.

also, what about a gestalt game?  druid, planar shepherd// sorcerer     now can I use my already known spells in my spell slots?

at my table the DM is going to determine what spells are known either completely at random or at random from a list of spells that he would have modrons cast anyway, and in the same manner for other outsider forms, but I doubt that my power level will exceed the incantatrix or artificer

It is highly debatable whether spellcasting is an Ex, Su, or Sp ability.

"I wild shape into this! Now I spend the next hour picking my spells" is a dick move and should get you ejected from the table whether it's rules legal or not.
QFT, and it's not necessarily rules legal. Don't forget, you have to rest too.
Hi Welcome
[spoiler]
Allow me to welcome you both with my literal words and with an active display of how much you fit in by being tone deaf, dumb, and uncritical of your babbling myself.[/spoiler]

bearsarebrown

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2616
Re: Planar Shepherd + Mechanus for WS Modrons = HIGH caster levels?
« Reply #35 on: November 30, 2010, 10:04:46 PM »
Most monsters with spellcasting have a list of spells known/prepared.

@BeholderSlayer, but in this case it doesn't even matter. You get all abilities.

BeholderSlayer

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1258
Re: Planar Shepherd + Mechanus for WS Modrons = HIGH caster levels?
« Reply #36 on: November 30, 2010, 10:13:46 PM »
Most monsters with spellcasting have a list of spells known/prepared.

@BeholderSlayer, but in this case it doesn't even matter. You get all abilities.
It may not be an ability at all. After all, technically it is a class feature, not a special ability.
Hi Welcome
[spoiler]
Allow me to welcome you both with my literal words and with an active display of how much you fit in by being tone deaf, dumb, and uncritical of your babbling myself.[/spoiler]

Bauglir

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2346
  • TriOptimum
Re: Planar Shepherd + Mechanus for WS Modrons = HIGH caster levels?
« Reply #37 on: November 30, 2010, 10:48:28 PM »
I completely agree that it should get you ejected. If you're going to pull this shit you should come in with a list of spells known already written, and that's if the DM has for some reason said it's cool (this would have to be a DM whose only rule was "No Pun-Pun" and let anything else fly, though, to be honest). The trouble with prepared ones is that those creatures still have to prepare those spells; it's just assumed when you encounter them that they did it at the beginning of the day, like your characters did. As a shapechanged creature, you never prepared spells in those slots, so you need to do so to use them.

Also, whether or not spellcasting falls under the categories of abilities granted by Shapechange is a good thing. I don't know, honestly. Balanced interpretation is that it doesn't, I s'pose.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.