Author Topic: Planar Shepherd + Mechanus for WS Modrons = HIGH caster levels?  (Read 5700 times)

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JohnnyMayHymn

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Planar Shepherd + Mechanus for WS Modrons = HIGH caster levels?
« on: November 28, 2010, 06:06:43 PM »
Ok...Part 1 Modrons were updated here

[spoiler]http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20010921a[/spoiler]

Planar Shepherd picks Clockwork Nirvana of Mechanus as chosen plane,

Wildshapes into a SECUNDUS for 20th level Cleric Casting AND 20th level Sorcerer Casting,

Shapechange(whichever order) into a TERTIAN for 20th level Cleric casting AND 20th level Sorcerer Casting,

Do I now have 20th level Cleric spells, 20th level Cleric spells, 20th level Sorcerer spells, 20th level sorcerer spells + whatever druid casting?

or

40th level cleric spells, 40th level sorcerer spells, + whatever druid casting?

or

something else?

also whats the new shapchange HD limit (40 + 2x druid cl),  (80 + 2x druid cl) ?
can cleric cl count since shapechange is in animal domain? so then cl (160 + 2x druid cl)?
if gestalt cleric//druid(160 + 2x druid cl + 2x original cleric cl) HD



Part 2 Native Creatures... modrons for sure, their entry specifically states that they are native to mechanus.

DMG lists Heavenly and Hellish encounter tables for mechanus,  Manual of the planes states(paraphrasing) it is infinite in size and lists inhabitants from the material plane, the nine hells and celestia, and formians... a few others,   

what counts as "Native" for PS wildshape purposes? (mechanus or otherwise) pure DM fiat?

Edit: if nothing else, a druid5, planar shepherd9 can wildshape into a 14HD HEXTON that has 18th level cleric casting with the Law, protection and war domains,
how can we can get the plant domain? (besides gestalt druid//cleric), we would then have shapechange witch leads to the bigger modrons then to more 20th level caster lists...

Planar Shepherd handbook, if you are not familiar with it...
[spoiler]http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871574/The_Planar_Shepherd_Handbook?pg=1[/spoiler]
« Last Edit: November 29, 2010, 11:36:31 AM by JohnnyMayHymn »
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BeholderSlayer

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Re: Planar Shepherd + Mechanus for WS Modrons = HIGH caster levels?
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2010, 07:54:45 PM »
two entries for spell casting don't stack. it just takes the highest one.

Shapechange has a HD limit of 25 unless you have some way to uncap it, and I don't think even the most lenient DM's will let Reserves of Strength completely uncap your spells. That leaves only homebrew arcane classes for uncapped magic.

Also, even if you do Wildshape and/or Shapechange into forms with spellcasting, you either need to A) rest and prepare spells by praying or from a spellbook, or B) somehow learn arcane spells to cast from your newly acquired sorcerer spell slots. Since you can't Shapechange into unique creatures, you can't choose a singular modron and then have their particular spells known list.
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JohnnyMayHymn

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Re: Planar Shepherd + Mechanus for WS Modrons = HIGH caster levels?
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2010, 04:13:06 AM »
i would say that a modron who casts as a 20th level sorcerer and knows zero spells is pretty unique... so you can't do that either... :shrug

and yea, the HD cap,(I was literally up all night before half baking this) i guess they errata from 50 to 25 @ some point?

two entries for spell casting don't stack. it just takes the highest one.
caster level or spells known/per day?
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skydragonknight

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Re: Planar Shepherd + Mechanus for WS Modrons = HIGH caster levels?
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2010, 04:35:04 AM »
Dude. 420 mile Telepathy + Mindsight.
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

BeholderSlayer

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Re: Planar Shepherd + Mechanus for WS Modrons = HIGH caster levels?
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2010, 04:40:15 AM »
Hi Welcome
i would say that a modron who casts as a 20th level sorcerer and knows zero spells is pretty unique... so you can't do that either... :shrug
That's a pretty stupid argument. You're a druid. You don't know any arcane spells. You shapechange. You still don't know any arcane spells, despite having 20th level sorcerer spellcasting. How are you planning on going about selecting the spells you know, anyway? You get to choose them despite having no knowledge of them? Ridiculous. Also, it's a fairly strongly agreed upon point that Shapechange does not grant spellcasting despite the author oversight a.k.a edit failure in MMIV (or was it V? Who gives a fuck anyway?).

and yea, the HD cap,(I was literally up all night before half baking this) i guess they errata from 50 to 25 @ some point?
You might want to try applying reading comprehension to your rulebooks before saying something like this.

two entries for spell casting don't stack. it just takes the highest one.
caster level or spells known/per day?
That depends. It'll give you that caster level and spells per day, sure. It doesn't necessarily give you ANY spells known, unless you have some method for knowing them or memorizing them. You may have the spell slots, but that doesn't mean that you can actually use them.
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BeholderSlayer

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Re: Planar Shepherd + Mechanus for WS Modrons = HIGH caster levels?
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2010, 04:41:38 AM »
Dude. 420 mile Telepathy + Mindsight.
Yeah, that alone makes the Mordron pure awesome. Shapechange for spells though, no, Shapechange doesn't work like that.
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skydragonknight

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Re: Planar Shepherd + Mechanus for WS Modrons = HIGH caster levels?
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2010, 04:45:30 AM »
You may have the spell slots, but that doesn't mean that you can actually use them.

Arcane Strike abuse?
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BeholderSlayer

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Re: Planar Shepherd + Mechanus for WS Modrons = HIGH caster levels?
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2010, 04:55:14 AM »
You may have the spell slots, but that doesn't mean that you can actually use them.

Arcane Strike abuse?
Could depend how the DM rules the wording of Arcane Strike. It reads "sacrifice one of your spells for the day," which could mean "spell slots," but much more likely means "memorized (or castable) spells for the day." I can see where the logic comes from, I just don't think it would ever fly since, while you do have spell slots, you don't actually have any "SPELLS for the day."
« Last Edit: November 29, 2010, 04:58:43 AM by BeholderSlayer »
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Re: Planar Shepherd + Mechanus for WS Modrons = HIGH caster levels?
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2010, 05:20:36 AM »
Dude. 420 mile Telepathy + Mindsight.
Yeah, that alone makes the Mordron pure awesome. Shapechange for spells though, no, Shapechange doesn't work like that.

Then again, Spellweavers. 1000 mile telepathy.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Planar Shepherd + Mechanus for WS Modrons = HIGH caster levels?
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2010, 06:19:25 AM »
Greensnake nagas.  Telepathy as far as they can speak.
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JohnnyMayHymn

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Re: Planar Shepherd + Mechanus for WS Modrons = HIGH caster levels?
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2010, 11:19:17 AM »
Hi Welcome
i would say that a modron who casts as a 20th level sorcerer and knows zero spells is pretty unique... so you can't do that either... :shrug
That's a pretty stupid argument. You're a druid. You don't know any arcane spells. You shapechange. You still don't know any arcane spells, despite having 20th level sorcerer spellcasting. How are you planning on going about selecting the spells you know, anyway? You get to choose them despite having no knowledge of them? Ridiculous. Also, it's a fairly strongly agreed upon point that Shapechange does not grant spellcasting despite the author oversight a.k.a edit failure in MMIV (or was it V? Who gives a fuck anyway?).
using the line of thought that everything is ex, su or sp, planar shepherd grants all three with outsider wildshape, so logically spell casting/spells known would be included.
what else could they be?  Also, shapechange requires you to be familiar with the form, so the druid could know something about the spells.(knowledge nature[planar shepherd considers the planes to be part of nature], plus spellcraft is a class skill and knowledge arcana can be taken cross-class  (or how about sorcerer//druid gestalt? now can I prepare spells? what about druid//archivist?  erudite(spell to power), or wizard then what?)
unfortunately, the particulars of spell selection may be left to individual DM fiat / houserules  and that's fine.
BTW I should have mentioned that I am more interested in RAW while still considering RAI and general consensus.  For the purposes of this thread, that edit failure should be considered part of RAW.


and yea, the HD cap,(I was literally up all night before half baking this) i guess they errata from 50 to 25 @ some point?
You might want to try applying reading comprehension to your rulebooks before saying something like this.
You might try rearticulating yourself comprehensibly, my PHB states "The assumed form cannot have more than twice your caster level in Hit Dice (up to a maximum of 50 HD)."
If there is errata and I am wrong, then so be it. I don't need your supercilious comments that are lacking contribution to the thread.

two entries for spell casting don't stack. it just takes the highest one.
caster level or spells known/per day?
That depends. It'll give you that caster level and spells per day, sure. It doesn't necessarily give you ANY spells known, unless you have some method for knowing them or memorizing them. You may have the spell slots, but that doesn't mean that you can actually use them.
this was useful thank you

@everyone else, thank you for your contributions!
any second opinions about stacking outsider wildshape and shapechange and how it may or may not affect casting, specifically as it pertains to Modron clr/sor casting and (possibly) ramping to 20th level casting from level 14(this is when the average planar shepherd gets ousider wildshape with ex, su, sp of new form) via Hexton(18th level clr casting) into Secundus(wildshape)//Tertian(shapechange while still in wildshape or vise versa)      ..... or at all below epic levels if not able @ level 14
« Last Edit: November 29, 2010, 11:20:52 AM by JohnnyMayHymn »
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skydragonknight

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Re: Planar Shepherd + Mechanus for WS Modrons = HIGH caster levels?
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2010, 02:50:38 PM »
Errata (and my PHB) says 25 HD on Shapechange. Early printings say 50 HD.
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JohnnyMayHymn

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Re: Planar Shepherd + Mechanus for WS Modrons = HIGH caster levels?
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2010, 03:10:04 PM »
ah, ok makes sense

that still leaves shapechange for spells and the Mechanus "natives" list up for debate

all modrons

what about formians born on mechanus?
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Re: Planar Shepherd + Mechanus for WS Modrons = HIGH caster levels?
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2010, 09:06:04 PM »
Time for me to be unhelpful!

Inevitables are from Mechanus... however they are Constructs. Constructs with the Extra planer subtype. But still.

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Re: Planar Shepherd + Mechanus for WS Modrons = HIGH caster levels?
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2010, 09:09:46 PM »
a square modrons belt is 12ft long... *insert more nonsense here*
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skydragonknight

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Re: Planar Shepherd + Mechanus for WS Modrons = HIGH caster levels?
« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2010, 02:14:40 AM »
I've heard that the modrons in 3.5 are constructs (I'm guessing they're in a dragon mag?). If this is true, then RAI you shouldn't be able to wildshape into those 3.0 modrons.
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BeholderSlayer

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Re: Planar Shepherd + Mechanus for WS Modrons = HIGH caster levels?
« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2010, 05:47:48 AM »
I've heard that the modrons in 3.5 are constructs (I'm guessing they're in a dragon mag?). If this is true, then RAI you shouldn't be able to wildshape into those 3.0 modrons.
The Base Modrons were written up in Dragon Magazine 354, but the Heirarch Modrons (the strong ones with casting) don't appear to be rewritten. All the base Modrons were changed from Outsiders to Constructs with the Extraplanar and Lawful subtypes. I don't know how that affects this situation, since arguably you could still Shapechange into a heirarch since it wasn't written up (logically changing the type to construct, of course, as it would be retarded to say the base modrons became constructs but the heirarchs did not). If the Heirarchs would be considered extraplanar constructs, they are no longer applicable forms for the Planar Shepherd's wildshape ability.

I suppose it also could be argued that you can't Shapechange into a Heirarch at all, since the modron was rewritten and the Heirarchs were omitted.

It could also be said that the base modrons are extraplanar constructs and the heirarchs are still outsiders, since they weren't rewritten. However, this is completely illogical and makes one look like an idiot.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2010, 06:18:24 AM by BeholderSlayer »
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JohnnyMayHymn

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Re: Planar Shepherd + Mechanus for WS Modrons = HIGH caster levels?
« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2010, 08:32:14 AM »
if dragon is not allowed at your table (except w/ case by case approval) then all of the 3.0 modrons are outsiders
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Re: Planar Shepherd + Mechanus for WS Modrons = HIGH caster levels?
« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2010, 02:50:07 PM »
Technically, all the higher up modrons are Unique. There's an exact amount of them, a specific upgrade order (from a lower ranking Modron, ALWAYS), and each is accounted for. It's like saying you'd want to become Secundus #3 - since there simply is no such thing as a "general" Secundus.

Plus, the lower level ones are all Living Constructs, but just when they become playable and Rogue, IIRC. They're still Outsiders while part of the Source, no?
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JohnnyMayHymn

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Re: Planar Shepherd + Mechanus for WS Modrons = HIGH caster levels?
« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2010, 03:33:18 PM »
no
 the first five pages(in the manual of the planes web enhancement) explain how all modrons are born as monodrones and gain rank only to fill gaps higher up, so if a secundus were to die or go rogue, one of every rank below it would get a promotion, and a monodrone would split in two to fill the empty job at the lowest rank
when a modron is promoted it changes physically and mentally to fill the higher ranking role
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