Magic Versus Mundanes - The Double Standard

[SiggyDevil]

I played Tunnels of Doom for the old TI computer.  Wizards didn't cast spells.  My all-Fighter party rocked house.

4e you say..

[Endarire]

What do you mean by 4E?

[Ramaloke]

It's depressingly common to see a situation where the response to "my DM's rules don't allow for (suggested build/exploit)" is "your DM is wrong and you should convince him to change it".

Well, yes, but KV's dms are getting better.

I'm not even talking about lunatic DMs - even "my DM doesn't use this book" is often enough met with "well, you should tell your DM to let you use it". Maybe it seems disproportionately to be the case because of how frustrating it is to me when that happens.

I think allot of that has more to do with the commonly known (at least amongst the folks on this board) and held as truth statement "Core itself isn't balanced, and so the idea that certain sourcebooks should not be allowed to maintain balance is retarded."

[Bauglir]

Indeed, banning "Races of Eberron" because Warforged, Shifters, and Changelings don't exist in your campaign and you don't want to flesh out the impact they'd have on the world is a legit reason. Banning it because you think it's broken doesn't seem terribly reasonable, unless I'm forgetting something.

[Lycanthromancer]

Indeed, banning "Races of Eberron" because Warforged, Shifters, and Changelings don't exist in your campaign and you don't want to flesh out the impact they'd have on the world is a legit reason. Banning it because you think it's broken doesn't seem terribly reasonable, unless I'm forgetting something.

Thing is, they don't need to have an impact on the world beyond what a standard-issue PC would already have (though that impact may be different than with a member of a more 'normal' race). Warforged are merely intelligent golems, while shifters aren't much different than lycanthropes, and changelings are hardly more noticeable than doppelgangers.

And who's to say that these oddball races aren't around, but hiding, or rare, or that you're not the only one of your kind in existence, whether as a remnant of an otherwise extinct race, a visitor from another world, or the experiment of a mad archmage?

D&D is filled with weird races. Denying someone something like this because it's odd is like Daddy forbidding Junior from ordering chocolate ice cream on his cone because Daddy doesn't like it.

However, there could be other legit reasons, such as WANTING extra-weird races for, say, a Planescape game where everyone's character is a newly-spawned petitioner or something.

[AndyJames]

Thing is, they don't need to have an impact on the world beyond what a standard-issue PC would already have (though that impact may be different than with a member of a more 'normal' race). Warforged are merely intelligent golems, while shifters aren't much different than lycanthropes, and changelings are hardly more noticeable than doppelgangers.

And who's to say that these oddball races aren't around, but hiding, or rare, or that you're not the only one of your kind in existence, whether as a remnant of an otherwise extinct race, a visitor from another world, or the experiment of a mad archmage?

D&D is filled with weird races. Denying someone something like this because it's odd is like Daddy forbidding Junior from ordering chocolate ice cream on his cone because Daddy doesn't like it.

However, there could be other legit reasons, such as WANTING extra-weird races for, say, a Planescape game where everyone's character is a newly-spawned petitioner or something.

I totally disagree. If the DM has a homebrew that has a set of specific PLAYABLE races, that is his perogative. If you don't like it, then bow out. Just because something exists in a DnD book somewhere is not a good enough reason to force a DM to accept it as a playable race.

The DM has crafted a world for you to play in. Respect his restrictions on what the world has. It IS his world, after all.

[Bozwevial]

On the other hand, if a PC comes to you wanting to play a warforged in your campaign of sentient grasshopper-men, the correct response isn't to smack him with a rolled-up newspaper and demand that he thank you for the privilege of playing. It's to say, "Well, I'm not entirely sure if that fits with the campaign I had in mind. What about the warforged appeals to you? Maybe we can reflavor something to make everybody happy."

[AndyJames]

...smack him with a rolled-up newspaper and demand that he thank you for the privilege of playing...

State where I said this.

[Bozwevial]

...smack him with a rolled-up newspaper and demand that he thank you for the privilege of playing...

State where I said this.

I'm trying to find a middle ground between demanding that you be permitted to play whatever you want and bowing out of a game because you can't play precisely what you want.

[AndyJames]

I'm trying to find a middle ground between demanding that you be permitted to play whatever you want and bowing out of a game because you can't play precisely what you want.

Your framing of the situation belies this.

The DM did not do anything. You can discuss it with him, but if he says no, then either bow out or play by his rules instead of throwing a temper tantrum. At no time did I advocate you kiss his feet for the privilege of playing in his game. That slanderously implies arrogance on my part.

[Bozwevial]

I'm trying to find a middle ground between demanding that you be permitted to play whatever you want and bowing out of a game because you can't play precisely what you want.

Your framing of the situation belies this.

The DM did not do anything. You can discuss it with him, but if he says no, then either bow out or play by his rules instead of throwing a temper tantrum. At no time did I advocate you kiss his feet for the privilege of playing in his game. That slanderously implies arrogance on my part.

And at no time did I say you advocated that, did I?

[AndyJames]

And at no time did I say you advocated that, did I?

I will let the above sequence of original posts speak for themselves.

[Bozwevial]

And at no time did I say you advocated that, did I?

I will let the above sequence of original posts speak for themselves.

If by that you mean you'll let them show that I neither mentioned you nor quoted you or your position in my original post, then yes, they do speak for themselves.

[Solo]

I am in awe.

[Bozwevial]

Allow me to clarify, AndyJames: My post was not written to you, quoting you, assigning viewpoints to you, or indeed with you in mind at all. It was merely a statement of my opinion.

[Lycanthromancer]

Allow me to clarify, AndyJames: My post was not written to you, quoting you, assigning viewpoints to you, or indeed with you in mind at all. It was merely a statement of my opinion.

That's what s/he said.

[Bozwevial]

Allow me to clarify, AndyJames: My post was not written to you, quoting you, assigning viewpoints to you, or indeed with you in mind at all. It was merely a statement of my opinion.

That's what s/he said.

Then I'm afraid I don't quite see the argument.

[Lycanthromancer]

Allow me to clarify, AndyJames: My post was not written to you, quoting you, assigning viewpoints to you, or indeed with you in mind at all. It was merely a statement of my opinion.

That's what s/he said.

Then I'm afraid I don't quite see the argument.

That was a joke, son. [/Foghorn]

[Bozwevial]

That was a joke, son. [/Foghorn]

That'll teach me to read at 3 in the morning.

[Sunic_Flames]

It's funny when on this board EVERYONE immediately jumps when the first hint of GM fiat approaches, whereas on other boards I am frequenting at the moment, GM fiat is just the done thing, and people even think it's good and right...

Andy: Teleport and the likes make GMing quite hard. IF you wish to keep PCs on a track. If you are content with just letting things happen, then I think it will be far less of a problem. The way to approach GMing in that case is more of a "stuff happens", what do you do about it?", than "you walk into a room with a puzzle". Basically I just make stuff, and don't think too much about how the PCs will solve the problem. You can assume a PC of level 9+ to be resourceful. Right now I think I would have more trouble if the group could not teleport. Oh wait, I have just such a group... hmmm.
Of course, PCs must also expect their enemies to teleport around. If you're assaulting the stronghold of a powerful wizard he would be stupid to not just hop away and return with a gang of additional defenders. At that point knowing what the spells can do is pretty important, and especially at the table some leeway must be given to inaccuracies, on either sides.

Mostly because good boards hate it when fiat is your only fallback, and bad boards love it, because they're too incompetent to have a better alternative.

For example, railroading bullshit. The good DM has already taken into consideration such things as Teleport, and isn't engaging in railroading bullshit. The bad DM will get pissed off when the group says "Hey, screw this." and fucks off to do something else.