Author Topic: Magic Versus Mundanes - The Double Standard  (Read 51157 times)

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Gods_Trick

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Re: Magic Versus Mundanes - The Double Standard
« Reply #180 on: December 23, 2010, 11:19:49 PM »
But we have a game for playing supermen.  It's called Champions, and it doesn't bother with real world physics.

Maybe the 3.5 remnant should consider moving to an all-caster base for PCs, who can then hire other mooks to get clobbered on the front line while they work their wonders.  Alas, we all have influences that it to not be so.  The baseline in fantasy (until Elric) was that the brawny, simple but decent fighter takes out the amoral conniving magician.  But as everyone argues, that's not happening in this game unless the GM stacks the deck.

  It helps that 'Conan' there lives in a world that requires ritual magic, and every sorceror only picks one or two combat spells, which is invariably a nerfed polymorph. I can't ever recall a fighter type beating a caster solo without a DeM or really, really stupid choices on the casters part. Every fantasy mage must be a sorceror who dumped Int.

veekie

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Re: Magic Versus Mundanes - The Double Standard
« Reply #181 on: December 23, 2010, 11:57:55 PM »
^^
Well, in fiction if a mage has more than 4 spells(of various versatility) combat in any given fight, they're pretty damned good already. Everything else requires long elaborate rituals to setup, and as such work at a Plot level, or else takes a minute of casting or so at least.

So you'd tend to see several the following in combat useful time:
1) Defensive spell - Generally a deflecting effect or a barrier that soaks damage
2) Blast spell - Usually fireballs, but shapes and energies vary. The better ones make them into walls of fire and stuff.
3) Illusion spell - Good for getting cheap mileage.
4) Telekinesis - Much like Illusion, it's very versatile and useful.
5) Polymorph - see above regarding versatility. Bonus in that this works as both defense, offense and buff. Pity most of them only get mundane animals.
6) Flight - Usually built into the REALLY powerful ones.
7) Mind Control -this is mainly good for minions, you rarely see them work so well on heroes
8) Necromancy/Demon binding - these generally 'cheat' by using long duration casting spells to put some minions 'hanging' ready. Few are actually good enough to use them on the fly.
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Gods_Trick

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Re: Magic Versus Mundanes - The Double Standard
« Reply #182 on: December 24, 2010, 01:50:14 AM »

  If a fictional mage had half those abilities, I don't seeing Conan winning. Or at the very least killing the caster. Actually now I'm curious. Any good fictional examples of a pure non-magic type taking on a caster and winning?

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Magic Versus Mundanes - The Double Standard
« Reply #183 on: December 24, 2010, 01:51:49 AM »
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veekie

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Re: Magic Versus Mundanes - The Double Standard
« Reply #184 on: December 24, 2010, 02:26:40 AM »

  If a fictional mage had half those abilities, I don't seeing Conan winning. Or at the very least killing the caster.
Thats why I said several.
Any given mage will have ONE, maybe two(three if they're modern and believe in having barriers)
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

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Unbeliever

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Re: Magic Versus Mundanes - The Double Standard
« Reply #185 on: December 24, 2010, 03:21:28 AM »

  If a fictional mage had half those abilities, I don't seeing Conan winning. Or at the very least killing the caster. Actually now I'm curious. Any good fictional examples of a pure non-magic type taking on a caster and winning?
Kincaid from the Dresden Files?  I'm only about halfway through the series, and I know he's not strictly un-supernatural, but he doesn't seem to have anything approaching being a caster. 

I'm sure there are others, I'm just tired at the moment.  Oh, maybe the Haruchai/Bloodguard from the Covenant series.

In a lot of these examples, though, I expect that magic will have some limitations, like being grounded out by salt or something, that a mundane can take advantage of.  That, and some abilities are more powerful in D&D than they are in fiction.  Take polymorph, Conan can certainly take a regular old tiger -- he's the most tiger-like character ever -- and that's the sort of thing mages in literature tend to do.  But, in D&D the wizard turns into a hydra or a war troll or something.

Gods_Trick

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Re: Magic Versus Mundanes - The Double Standard
« Reply #186 on: December 24, 2010, 03:39:45 AM »

  If a fictional mage had half those abilities, I don't seeing Conan winning. Or at the very least killing the caster. Actually now I'm curious. Any good fictional examples of a pure non-magic type taking on a caster and winning?
Kincaid from the Dresden Files?  I'm only about halfway through the series, and I know he's not strictly un-supernatural, but he doesn't seem to have anything approaching being a caster. 
I'm sure there are others, I'm just tired at the moment.  Oh, maybe the Haruchai/Bloodguard from the Covenant series.

In a lot of these examples, though, I expect that magic will have some limitations, like being grounded out by salt or something, that a mundane can take advantage of.  That, and some abilities are more powerful in D&D than they are in fiction.  Take polymorph, Conan can certainly take a regular old tiger -- he's the most tiger-like character ever -- and that's the sort of thing mages in literature tend to do.  But, in D&D the wizard turns into a hydra or a war troll or something.

  Actually Kincaid is a damn fine example. Hes a something, but that hasn't been revealed yet, but not a mage anyway. Haruchai I'm having a hard time seeing, mostly because of the definition of 'mage'. Does Covenent even cover the classical (by that I mean sword& sorcery) definition of mage?

 

veekie

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Re: Magic Versus Mundanes - The Double Standard
« Reply #187 on: December 24, 2010, 06:11:00 AM »
For Kincaid, hes does that with superior use of equipment and ambush(of course, a few centuries of active combat experience helps here, as does superhuman senses and endurance), in a universe where wizards have known weaknesses(range, running water, empowered circles). Basically, he just proves that with time and prep you can take anyone.

Mostly, the wizard's running out of resources is a significant concern in almost every setting but D&D, where he'd have enough left to go depopulate a few towns before he needs a nap. But then most of them are closer to point pool systems, and on top of that, magical fatigue bleeds over to physical fatigue for many.

So D&D has these weaknesses removed:
-Repertoire size - see absurd number of combat spells known compared to majority of fictional casters. The total spells known may just barely be matched by a POWERFUL caster's combined combat and ritual magic lore.
-Endurance - High level power is distinct from low level power, whereas in many fictions casters conserve their big guns because using one could wear them out and leave them unable to light a candle, or in extreme cases leave them weakened for several days after.
-Convenience - No need for unique, personalized foci, no need to bother about stellar/planar alignment, circumstances of the casting, ritual clothing, magic circles and diagrams(though to be fair this last is often bypassed by action casters, whether with pre drawn runes(cards/paper/clothes), imagined circles, or using illusion/energy control to Instant some up.
-Speed - By far the the biggest gap. For most casters in fiction, only simple, practiced effects are combat speed, and for even powerful casters, raising an effect to begin with(discounting working with a precast effect, as is often the case with polymorph, telekinesis and flight) would take a few rounds worth of time. Of course, each spellcaster has their favorites which work with fire and forget speeds, but these are usually only just acceptable compared to their maximum output. Big or exceptionally nasty spells require more time to put together, especially for weaker magi.

Missed any?
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Prime32

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Re: Magic Versus Mundanes - The Double Standard
« Reply #188 on: December 24, 2010, 11:02:12 AM »
Years back, I saw a setup thread for a "D&D-themed" freeform RP. The players listed their powers.

Player 1: "Skilled with a sword."
Player 2: "Sneaking around."
Player 3: "Massive area elemental damage, flight, invisibility, ability to see the true forms and thoughts of anything he looks on, mass teleportation with unlimited range, mass mind control, sensing, understanding and destroying magical effects or creatures, self-replication, shapeshifting, immortality, creating indestructible barriers, seeing into the past, future and far away, summoning creatures with any required skill, bringing the dead back to life."
Player 1: "Umm... you might want to tone it back there a little."
Player 3: "Huh? You said this was D&D themed. ???"


-Repertoire size - see absurd number of combat spells known compared to majority of fictional casters. The total spells known may just barely be matched by a POWERFUL caster's combined combat and ritual magic lore.
I should note that there are cases where fictional casters know "a hundred spells" then it turns out that they need a different paralysis spell for every species.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2010, 11:32:18 AM by Prime32 »
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The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
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Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

Flay Crimsonwind

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Re: Magic Versus Mundanes - The Double Standard
« Reply #189 on: December 24, 2010, 11:26:30 AM »
I should note that there are cases where fictional casters know "a hundred spells" then it turns out that they need a different paralysis spell for every species.
Which is why killing it with fire is almost always a superior strategy. Why bother learning how to disable it, tone it down, or summon monsters to take it out, when you could alternatively make a crater half a mile wide while avoiding the damage yourself?  :D

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Magic Versus Mundanes - The Double Standard
« Reply #190 on: December 24, 2010, 11:48:51 AM »
Missed any?
The fact that magic is incredibly dangerous to the caster unless performed perfectly (and even then the results could still potentially harm the wielder).

And don't forget a blood-price or selling your soul for services rendered.

Making a pact with a demonic presence to do your bidding (that may still turn on you in the end) is a basic fantasy staple.
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Re: Magic Versus Mundanes - The Double Standard
« Reply #191 on: December 24, 2010, 12:54:29 PM »
So what elements of classical fantasy would you put back in to restore balance?  Seems the easiest one is that a spell takes 1 action per spell level to cast, so that a fireball takes 1.5 rounds assuming you do nothing else.  Feats could speed it up, but not by much.

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Re: Magic Versus Mundanes - The Double Standard
« Reply #192 on: December 24, 2010, 01:00:33 PM »
Give casters a few spells they can use as standard actions at will without consequences. After that, hit them with status effects, hp damage, XP loss, increased casting times, and expensive material components (with no workarounds for them, other than very specific ones that must be DM-approved

Also, every spell should have SOME way to avoid its effects without excessively specific means. Saves and AC are good, but the caster can still target what he wants to target. At least non-magicians won't need to have extremely expensive items of, say, freedom of movement, death ward, mind blank, etc just to keep from getting hit with the castration-bat.

Tone magic down, ramp non-magic up.

Or just give everyone magic of some flavor, even if it's 'sword magic'.

The best way in 3.5 is to limit any given game to a specific tier range. I like tiers 2-3 myself.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2010, 01:02:59 PM by Lycanthromancer »
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
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My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

Unbeliever

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Re: Magic Versus Mundanes - The Double Standard
« Reply #193 on: December 24, 2010, 02:16:25 PM »
@Veekie
Using the Dresden Files as our stock example of "wizards as PCs" I'd say that they don't really have the limitations that you're talking about.  Sure, D gets exhausted, but that never seems to matter all that much:  even while exhausted he can unleash a localized nuclear holocaust or toss cars around.  And, while he can certainly prepare spells, almost all his combat stuff is on the fly.

If I had to identify the differences that make the Dresden-verse seem more "balanced" it'd have to be the weaknesses that have pointed out (and add a need for foci to them) and that magic doesn't 100% deal w/ D's vulnerabilities.  Sure, the duster and shield bracelet help a lot, but he's still more assailable than your Greater Mirror Imaged Flying wizard, relative to their respective universes. 

That, and magic can't do everything in that world, surprisingly enough since it's wizard-based.  There's a lot to be said to restricting magic to a particular feel or theme.

@Covenant
The Lords, Kasryn of the Gyre, and the blood-users from the second chronicles are all reasonable stand-ins for spellcasters.  At least some of the uber-monks can match them in a fight.

...
Also, every spell should have SOME way to avoid its effects without excessively specific means. Saves and AC are good, but the caster can still target what he wants to target. At least non-magicians won't need to have extremely expensive items of, say, freedom of movement, death ward, mind blank, etc just to keep from getting hit with the castration-bat.
...
I very much agree w/ this.  Although I'd like to add that rarely is character balance that big a deal in the games I run or play.  In part, I think it's b/c we have a bunch of good optimizers who help out weaker character archetypes and we also don't do some of the nastier tricks around (mostly, we hate divination ... headache for the DM).  There are occasional issues, w/ both "mundane" and caster builds, but they are usually easily resolved after a session. 

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Re: Magic Versus Mundanes - The Double Standard
« Reply #194 on: December 24, 2010, 05:17:00 PM »
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

Gods_Trick

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Re: Magic Versus Mundanes - The Double Standard
« Reply #195 on: December 24, 2010, 06:24:27 PM »
@Veekie
Using the Dresden Files as our stock example of "wizards as PCs" I'd say that they don't really have the limitations that you're talking about.  Sure, D gets exhausted, but that never seems to matter all that much:  even while exhausted he can unleash a localized nuclear holocaust or toss cars around.  And, while he can certainly prepare spells, almost all his combat stuff is on the fly.

If I had to identify the differences that make the Dresden-verse seem more "balanced" it'd have to be the weaknesses that have pointed out (and add a need for foci to them) and that magic doesn't 100% deal w/ D's vulnerabilities.  Sure, the duster and shield bracelet help a lot, but he's still more assailable than your Greater Mirror Imaged Flying wizard, relative to their respective universes. 

That, and magic can't do everything in that world, surprisingly enough since it's wizard-based.  There's a lot to be said to restricting magic to a particular feel or theme.

@Covenant
The Lords, Kasryn of the Gyre, and the blood-users from the second chronicles are all reasonable stand-ins for spellcasters.  At least some of the uber-monks can match them in a fight.

...
Also, every spell should have SOME way to avoid its effects without excessively specific means. Saves and AC are good, but the caster can still target what he wants to target. At least non-magicians won't need to have extremely expensive items of, say, freedom of movement, death ward, mind blank, etc just to keep from getting hit with the castration-bat.
...
I very much agree w/ this.  Although I'd like to add that rarely is character balance that big a deal in the games I run or play.  In part, I think it's b/c we have a bunch of good optimizers who help out weaker character archetypes and we also don't do some of the nastier tricks around (mostly, we hate divination ... headache for the DM).  There are occasional issues, w/ both "mundane" and caster builds, but they are usually easily resolved after a session. 

Dresden is, very strong as the books say, so comparatively rare. Sadly I can't recall much of the Lords, or bloodcasters from the Covenent series, so I guess that it indicates a need to delve ack into the Land of the Unbeliever  :bigeye

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Re: Magic Versus Mundanes - The Double Standard
« Reply #196 on: December 24, 2010, 07:01:47 PM »
Dresden is supposed to be in the top 20 wizards in the world when we're talking about sheer magical muscle. Skillwise he's got some growing to do.
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Re: Magic Versus Mundanes - The Double Standard
« Reply #197 on: December 24, 2010, 08:07:47 PM »
I repeat: the magic problem in D&D is a D&D problem.  Other systems have dealt with it; it is our turn, now that this is an unsupported game left to those who still play it, to fix what can be fixed.  Dresden is immaterial, other than as a guide to handle our problem.  I like the ideas posted by Lyconthromancer as a place to start; I'd like to see something or a proposal more elegant and playable.

Prime32

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Re: Magic Versus Mundanes - The Double Standard
« Reply #198 on: December 24, 2010, 08:36:00 PM »
Blunt "fixes": Increase the casting time of all spells by 1 step. Halve the CL of spells you cast on yourself. All casters are sorcerers who get 6th-level spells max but more spell slots.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2010, 08:37:48 PM by Prime32 »
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

Unbeliever

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Re: Magic Versus Mundanes - The Double Standard
« Reply #199 on: December 24, 2010, 09:16:59 PM »
I repeat: the magic problem in D&D is a D&D problem.  Other systems have dealt with it; it is our turn, now that this is an unsupported game left to those who still play it, to fix what can be fixed.  Dresden is immaterial, other than as a guide to handle our problem.  I like the ideas posted by Lyconthromancer as a place to start; I'd like to see something or a proposal more elegant and playable.
I don't find the problem all that pervasive, but rather than wielding a broad-based ban or nerfhammer I'd probably suggest restricting the bailiwick of magic, or various types of magics.  If arcane magic can blow things up and create walls and stuff, that's fine, especially depending on the mechanics involved.  It would only worry me if magic can be all things to all people:  if it can increase your AC, saves, and let you be a melee king and let you blow things up, etc. etc.

Maybe "magic" as a whole can be able to do that, since we're speaking at a high level of generality, but maybe if arcane casters were restricted to certain types of spells, and divine to others, perhaps by class or by specialization or something, that might help. 

A cousin to that approach might be to make all casters spontaneous, or even a lot more like warlocks.