Author Topic: Sha'ir Handbook: Semi-Phenomenal, Nearly-Cosmic Power [WIP]  (Read 53443 times)

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Sobolev

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Re: Sha'ir Handbook: Semi-Phenomenal, Nearly-Cosmic Power [WIP]
« Reply #40 on: November 22, 2010, 10:53:44 PM »
Considering making a new build something like

Sha'ir 7/Skypledged 7/Something 6

Skipping the Dweomerkeeper method and considering one of the circle magic classes.
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Quote from: Negative Zero on November 04, 2009, 02:16:14 AM
In my humble opinion, CO is haberdashery. Some say we're mad, but we can all agree we're hatters. Yes, we have potential to make very sophisticated hats, very fancy hats, be they dark or light. But the truth is that the color of the hat does not come from the group of us - our community doesn't directly produce hats. We simply give average head circumferences, list current fashion trends, and point out some shiny, obscure baubles to add to the latest hat line.

CantripN

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Re: Sha'ir Handbook: Semi-Phenomenal, Nearly-Cosmic Power [WIP]
« Reply #41 on: November 22, 2010, 11:29:28 PM »
Another PrC option:

Holy Orders of the Stars:
Dark Pilgrim of Takhisis - You must be Evil, give up all possessions (although you can get new ones later, apparently without losing status), and be able to cast 3rd level spells. In return, you get Full Casting 5/5, WIS to Diplomacy (up to Class Level), CHA to Saves, Hide in Plain Sight, Sneak Attack +2d6, Death Attack and Slippery Mind. Also, 4+INT Skills, and a good pick of skills (Diplomacy, too).

I'd go for Sha'ir 5 / Dark Pilgrim 3 / Skypledged 7 / XXX 5 if Evil.
It's possible to combine with Incantatrix, Dweomerkeeper, Archmage, Escalation Mage or anything else...

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altpersona

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Re: Sha'ir Handbook: Semi-Phenomenal, Nearly-Cosmic Power [WIP]
« Reply #42 on: November 23, 2010, 01:29:12 AM »
blood magus?

extra familiar? can i get two gen?
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Sha'ir Handbook: Semi-Phenomenal, Nearly-Cosmic Power [WIP]
« Reply #43 on: November 23, 2010, 01:32:44 AM »
blood magus?

extra familiar? can i get two gen?
I believe the gen familiar text says you can't...
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altpersona

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Re: Sha'ir Handbook: Semi-Phenomenal, Nearly-Cosmic Power [WIP]
« Reply #44 on: November 23, 2010, 01:39:22 AM »
bugger
The goal of power is power. - idk
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Re: Sha'ir Handbook: Semi-Phenomenal, Nearly-Cosmic Power [WIP]
« Reply #45 on: November 23, 2010, 01:55:08 AM »
Actually, the only reference is "A sha'ir with more than one class that grants a familiar can have only one familiar at a time." So the Extra Familiar feat should work (and is rather powerful) unless I am missing something.

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Re: Sha'ir Handbook: Semi-Phenomenal, Nearly-Cosmic Power [WIP]
« Reply #46 on: November 23, 2010, 02:13:09 AM »
The page in dragon 280 says "[these feats] are only available to a wizard or sorcerer with a familiar". 
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Sobolev

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Re: Sha'ir Handbook: Semi-Phenomenal, Nearly-Cosmic Power [WIP]
« Reply #47 on: November 23, 2010, 02:51:04 AM »
Another PrC option:

Holy Orders of the Stars:
Dark Pilgrim of Takhisis - You must be Evil, give up all possessions (although you can get new ones later, apparently without losing status), and be able to cast 3rd level spells. In return, you get Full Casting 5/5, WIS to Diplomacy (up to Class Level), CHA to Saves, Hide in Plain Sight, Sneak Attack +2d6, Death Attack and Slippery Mind. Also, 4+INT Skills, and a good pick of skills (Diplomacy, too).

I'd go for Sha'ir 5 / Dark Pilgrim 3 / Skypledged 7 / XXX 5 if Evil.
It's possible to combine with Incantatrix, Dweomerkeeper, Archmage, Escalation Mage or anything else...



Hm, I like it. Requires a bad feat and has some skill rank requirements.  Slippery Mind is probably overkill to a good Will Save, and your death attack save will be terrible most likely.  Wis to Diplomacy WOULD be good, if you had a positive bonus.  Hide in Plain Sight gets a thumbs up from me assuming you have the skill points to support it. Poison Use/Sneak Attack mileage may vary.  But I really, really like Charisma to Saves, which you also seemed to have zeroed in on, cutting off at level 3.  I think I'm going to add it as Blue.
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Quote from: Negative Zero on November 04, 2009, 02:16:14 AM
In my humble opinion, CO is haberdashery. Some say we're mad, but we can all agree we're hatters. Yes, we have potential to make very sophisticated hats, very fancy hats, be they dark or light. But the truth is that the color of the hat does not come from the group of us - our community doesn't directly produce hats. We simply give average head circumferences, list current fashion trends, and point out some shiny, obscure baubles to add to the latest hat line.

CantripN

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Re: Sha'ir Handbook: Semi-Phenomenal, Nearly-Cosmic Power [WIP]
« Reply #48 on: November 23, 2010, 07:07:30 AM »
Another PrC option:

Holy Orders of the Stars:
Dark Pilgrim of Takhisis - You must be Evil, give up all possessions (although you can get new ones later, apparently without losing status), and be able to cast 3rd level spells. In return, you get Full Casting 5/5, WIS to Diplomacy (up to Class Level), CHA to Saves, Hide in Plain Sight, Sneak Attack +2d6, Death Attack and Slippery Mind. Also, 4+INT Skills, and a good pick of skills (Diplomacy, too).

I'd go for Sha'ir 5 / Dark Pilgrim 3 / Skypledged 7 / XXX 5 if Evil.
It's possible to combine with Incantatrix, Dweomerkeeper, Archmage, Escalation Mage or anything else...



Hm, I like it. Requires a bad feat and has some skill rank requirements.  Slippery Mind is probably overkill to a good Will Save, and your death attack save will be terrible most likely.  Wis to Diplomacy WOULD be good, if you had a positive bonus.  Hide in Plain Sight gets a thumbs up from me assuming you have the skill points to support it. Poison Use/Sneak Attack mileage may vary.  But I really, really like Charisma to Saves, which you also seemed to have zeroed in on, cutting off at level 3.  I think I'm going to add it as Blue.
There's also the low opportunity to consider - you can get in at Sha'ir 5, earlier than most PrCs, and Skypledged in particular.
As for the Poison Use/Sneak Attack - meh. And you HiPS is just in Crowds, so meh. Slippery Mind is never bad to have, because you will want it eventually, it's just that you can get better things with 2 levels.

CHA to Saves at no loss of casting is worth it in my book.
Read, every day, something no one else is reading. Think, every day, something no one else is thinking. Do, every day, something no one else would be silly enough to do. It is bad for the mind to be always part of unanimity.

Sobolev

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Re: Sha'ir Handbook: Semi-Phenomenal, Nearly-Cosmic Power [WIP]
« Reply #49 on: November 23, 2010, 03:18:51 PM »
Another PrC option:

Holy Orders of the Stars:
Dark Pilgrim of Takhisis - You must be Evil, give up all possessions (although you can get new ones later, apparently without losing status), and be able to cast 3rd level spells. In return, you get Full Casting 5/5, WIS to Diplomacy (up to Class Level), CHA to Saves, Hide in Plain Sight, Sneak Attack +2d6, Death Attack and Slippery Mind. Also, 4+INT Skills, and a good pick of skills (Diplomacy, too).

I'd go for Sha'ir 5 / Dark Pilgrim 3 / Skypledged 7 / XXX 5 if Evil.
It's possible to combine with Incantatrix, Dweomerkeeper, Archmage, Escalation Mage or anything else...



Hm, I like it. Requires a bad feat and has some skill rank requirements.  Slippery Mind is probably overkill to a good Will Save, and your death attack save will be terrible most likely.  Wis to Diplomacy WOULD be good, if you had a positive bonus.  Hide in Plain Sight gets a thumbs up from me assuming you have the skill points to support it. Poison Use/Sneak Attack mileage may vary.  But I really, really like Charisma to Saves, which you also seemed to have zeroed in on, cutting off at level 3.  I think I'm going to add it as Blue.
There's also the low opportunity to consider - you can get in at Sha'ir 5, earlier than most PrCs, and Skypledged in particular.
As for the Poison Use/Sneak Attack - meh. And you HiPS is just in Crowds, so meh. Slippery Mind is never bad to have, because you will want it eventually, it's just that you can get better things with 2 levels.

CHA to Saves at no loss of casting is worth it in my book.

I agree, it was a weird timing because right before that I was thinking about Paladins and I was like "No way is that worth it" and then you found that and I was just like, "Oh...bingo."
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Quote from: Negative Zero on November 04, 2009, 02:16:14 AM
In my humble opinion, CO is haberdashery. Some say we're mad, but we can all agree we're hatters. Yes, we have potential to make very sophisticated hats, very fancy hats, be they dark or light. But the truth is that the color of the hat does not come from the group of us - our community doesn't directly produce hats. We simply give average head circumferences, list current fashion trends, and point out some shiny, obscure baubles to add to the latest hat line.

CantripN

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Re: Sha'ir Handbook: Semi-Phenomenal, Nearly-Cosmic Power [WIP]
« Reply #50 on: November 23, 2010, 04:23:00 PM »
Halruaan Elder (Shining South pg. 27) isn't half-bad, either. It gives you Circle Magic (!), 3 Signature Spells (Particularly useful for a Sha'ir) and it reduces Metamagic Costs of 4 feats by 1 each. I'd probably go until 5th level, for 2 Signature Spells, 2 Adroit Castings, and Full Circle Magic capacity.

Urban Savant (Cityscape pg. 100), meanwhile, is always a great option for anyone able to enter, and that's no different for you. You're better than most, since if you know someone's Weaknesses, you can get just the right spells to win. You only really need 4 levels to be great, but 7 is amazing for buffing allies (+3d6 per hit? Sure!). 8 offers an interesting ability, too.
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Sobolev

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Re: Sha'ir Handbook: Semi-Phenomenal, Nearly-Cosmic Power [WIP]
« Reply #51 on: November 23, 2010, 11:55:40 PM »
Halruaan Elder (Shining South pg. 27) isn't half-bad, either. It gives you Circle Magic (!), 3 Signature Spells (Particularly useful for a Sha'ir) and it reduces Metamagic Costs of 4 feats by 1 each. I'd probably go until 5th level, for 2 Signature Spells, 2 Adroit Castings, and Full Circle Magic capacity.

Urban Savant (Cityscape pg. 100), meanwhile, is always a great option for anyone able to enter, and that's no different for you. You're better than most, since if you know someone's Weaknesses, you can get just the right spells to win. You only really need 4 levels to be great, but 7 is amazing for buffing allies (+3d6 per hit? Sure!). 8 offers an interesting ability, too.

It takes Four feats (some of which you will probably have anyway) and a bunch of skills (many of them you will have anyway) but you do get the ability to be in a circle, and I do love Circle Magic.  I will add them, and likely the other Circle users (Red Wizards and Ethran as far as I know)

Urban Savant meh's me.  I feel like that's what a knowledge check already does (at least to a lesser degree) and I don't know if four levels in a prestige class that requires a bunch of skills and Bardic Music is worth it.

Edit: I'm still working on this, and reading PrC's often to try to find some I like, so I would still love assistance if people would like to help out (Thanks CantripN!). 

Things I would like help on:
PrC's, feel free to chip in what you think it should be too.  I might disagree and put something crazy in the guide instead, but who knows.
Feats, I don't think the guide has NEARLY enough feats in it yet, so I'll be working on that in the coming days.
Builds, both stat arrays and full 20 level builds.

I appreciate anything anyone contributes, as I said in the first post I'm not an optimizing pro (yet)!
« Last Edit: November 24, 2010, 12:07:28 AM by Sobolev »
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Quote from: Negative Zero on November 04, 2009, 02:16:14 AM
In my humble opinion, CO is haberdashery. Some say we're mad, but we can all agree we're hatters. Yes, we have potential to make very sophisticated hats, very fancy hats, be they dark or light. But the truth is that the color of the hat does not come from the group of us - our community doesn't directly produce hats. We simply give average head circumferences, list current fashion trends, and point out some shiny, obscure baubles to add to the latest hat line.

raith0

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Re: Sha'ir Handbook: Semi-Phenomenal, Nearly-Cosmic Power [WIP]
« Reply #52 on: November 24, 2010, 03:34:50 AM »
nice job on the handbook.  kinda glad  i noticed the class the other night when prepping for the next session i was about to run.

i will be playing one after January when some one else takes over the DM chair for a while.  i will post what the build is when i get it hammered out.

Sobolev

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Re: Sha'ir Handbook: Semi-Phenomenal, Nearly-Cosmic Power [WIP]
« Reply #53 on: November 24, 2010, 03:40:23 AM »
nice job on the handbook.  kinda glad  i noticed the class the other night when prepping for the next session i was about to run.

i will be playing one after January when some one else takes over the DM chair for a while.  i will post what the build is when i get it hammered out.

Thanks.  It's still in progress but I'm glad someone likes it so far.  If you posted a thread about seeing them that might even be what made me read them in the first place.  After reading them though I knew I wanted to write a handbook for them.  Then I'm going to follow it myself at some point.  I think my build is going to be Sha'ir 5/Dark Pilgrim of Takhiss 3/Skypledged 7/XYZ 5, maybe something with circle magic though I don't know if Halruaan Elder is it.  Maybe Red Wizard or Ethran.  Not sure yet, have to read over them.  I remember Red Wizard being more beneficial to Wizards though, can't remember why.  Edit: Aha! Need to be specialized in a school of magic.  Knew it was something like that.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2010, 04:02:52 AM by Sobolev »
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Quote from: Negative Zero on November 04, 2009, 02:16:14 AM
In my humble opinion, CO is haberdashery. Some say we're mad, but we can all agree we're hatters. Yes, we have potential to make very sophisticated hats, very fancy hats, be they dark or light. But the truth is that the color of the hat does not come from the group of us - our community doesn't directly produce hats. We simply give average head circumferences, list current fashion trends, and point out some shiny, obscure baubles to add to the latest hat line.

CantripN

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Re: Sha'ir Handbook: Semi-Phenomenal, Nearly-Cosmic Power [WIP]
« Reply #54 on: November 24, 2010, 02:42:11 PM »
You can't seriously compare Knowledge with Urban Savvy!
Knowledge gives you things like: "This creature is an Outsider, he has Darkvision, Flight and he can shoot Fireballs from his arse!".
Savvy goes like: "This is a Balor. His saves are +X/X/X, he has these attack options (insert full list here), these defences (insert full list here) and those are his special abilites (insert full list here).

It's so powerful that none of my DMs allow it anymore after having seen it in play. Knowledge is power, indeed...

Also, you need Bardic Knowledge (not Bardic Music) or Knowledge (History) 2. Both easy to get without losing casting (Paragonistic Apostle 1 is easiest for Bardic Knowledge).
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CantripN

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Re: Sha'ir Handbook: Semi-Phenomenal, Nearly-Cosmic Power [WIP]
« Reply #55 on: November 25, 2010, 09:39:22 PM »
More options to consider:
Citadel Mystic (Age of Mortals pg. 30) - Sure, you can no longer cast [Evil], Necromancy or [Death] spells, but you get CHA to 2 saves, a Domain (some of which are rather good), 4 Free Permanently Empowered or Extended spells, and a +6 to CHA checks with Rulers/Nobles/Authority Figures (which may include some of the beings you ask for spells, no?), a d8 HD, 2 Good Saves, 3/4 BAB, and 10/10 Casting!

It's the counterpart to the Dark Pilgrim, it seems. A bit better, in my eyes, as the abilities are much more powerful. Skills are a bit hard to qualify for, though.

It's probably best to delay the Citadel Mystic to higher levels and plan for the spells you'd improve in advance. It's godly powerful at low levels, but you'll later regret the poor low level spell-picks. It can be better than Skypledged, depending on what you plan to accomplish and your level.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2010, 05:06:11 PM by CantripN »
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Re: Sha'ir Handbook: Semi-Phenomenal, Nearly-Cosmic Power [WIP]
« Reply #56 on: November 25, 2010, 11:12:54 PM »
Oh, that reminds me: sha'ir interact weirdly with bonus domains. Even though they are capable of divine spellcasting and their natural domains are considered divine spells, per Complete Divine bonus domain spells from prestige classes "are considered arcane spells when cast by arcane spellcasters" with no exception added for classes whose spellcasting combines arcane and divine. Thus, they will memorize at the usual arcane rate rather than the abysmal divine rate.

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Re: Sha'ir Handbook: Semi-Phenomenal, Nearly-Cosmic Power [WIP]
« Reply #57 on: November 26, 2010, 05:12:00 PM »
Oh, and there's War Weaver (HoB), of course! Most people can't use it with Divine spells, but you can, and you can put ANY spells in there before combat!

I suggest this:
Sha'ir 5 / Dark Pilgrim 3 / War Weaver 5 / Skypledged 7

EDIT:

And also, there's the Sovereign Speaker (FoE) that gives you a choice of a LOT of domains. 5 levels aren't a bad deal, actually, for 5 extra "arcane" spells known per level from Domains, as well as 5 Domain Granted Powers and a bonus spell per day.

And, of course, there's the Escalation Mage (FoE), one of my all-time favourites for CHA-based casters. Not only is it very easy to qualify for, it's full casting, gives you CHA+Class Level HP (so it's essentially a d6 HD class on top of giving CHA to HP once), and 6 potential uses of Heighten (+1)/Empower/Widen/Quicken, and one use of each for free on top of that. I like it a lot.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2010, 06:41:58 PM by CantripN »
Read, every day, something no one else is reading. Think, every day, something no one else is thinking. Do, every day, something no one else would be silly enough to do. It is bad for the mind to be always part of unanimity.

Sobolev

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Re: Sha'ir Handbook: Semi-Phenomenal, Nearly-Cosmic Power [WIP]
« Reply #58 on: November 26, 2010, 09:36:51 PM »
Oh, and there's War Weaver (HoB), of course! Most people can't use it with Divine spells, but you can, and you can put ANY spells in there before combat!

I suggest this:
Sha'ir 5 / Dark Pilgrim 3 / War Weaver 5 / Skypledged 7

EDIT:

And also, there's the Sovereign Speaker (FoE) that gives you a choice of a LOT of domains. 5 levels aren't a bad deal, actually, for 5 extra "arcane" spells known per level from Domains, as well as 5 Domain Granted Powers and a bonus spell per day.

And, of course, there's the Escalation Mage (FoE), one of my all-time favourites for CHA-based casters. Not only is it very easy to qualify for, it's full casting, gives you CHA+Class Level HP (so it's essentially a d6 HD class on top of giving CHA to HP once), and 6 potential uses of Heighten (+1)/Empower/Widen/Quicken, and one use of each for free on top of that. I like it a lot.

I will look in to these a little later.  I wonder if the Sovereign Speaker can get you the Pride domain.  With +CHA to saves on top of what is probably already okay saves and with spellpool getting Superior Resistance or something I think it would be hard to fail saves without a 1.  Makes me want Evasion, I think there's a Domain for that too.
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Quote from: Negative Zero on November 04, 2009, 02:16:14 AM
In my humble opinion, CO is haberdashery. Some say we're mad, but we can all agree we're hatters. Yes, we have potential to make very sophisticated hats, very fancy hats, be they dark or light. But the truth is that the color of the hat does not come from the group of us - our community doesn't directly produce hats. We simply give average head circumferences, list current fashion trends, and point out some shiny, obscure baubles to add to the latest hat line.

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Re: Sha'ir Handbook: Semi-Phenomenal, Nearly-Cosmic Power [WIP]
« Reply #59 on: November 26, 2010, 11:28:42 PM »

  How long does a spell stay in a weave? That might solve the Shair's tendency to lose spells that aren't caste in time.