Author Topic: Sha'ir Handbook: Semi-Phenomenal, Nearly-Cosmic Power [WIP]  (Read 53442 times)

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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Sha'ir Handbook: Semi-Phenomenal, Nearly-Cosmic Power
« Reply #20 on: November 21, 2010, 10:58:35 PM »
Celadrin: also from dragon 350.  Cansin are dragon 297.

They're normally LA+1, but fortunately the rules in PGtF for "lesser planetouched" are openended enough that they work with any planetouched race.
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Sobolev

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Re: Sha'ir Handbook: Semi-Phenomenal, Nearly-Cosmic Power
« Reply #21 on: November 21, 2010, 11:44:28 PM »
Hope people are getting something from what there is so far as I write my little heart out.  This thread already has more responses than I expected.
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Quote from: Negative Zero on November 04, 2009, 02:16:14 AM
In my humble opinion, CO is haberdashery. Some say we're mad, but we can all agree we're hatters. Yes, we have potential to make very sophisticated hats, very fancy hats, be they dark or light. But the truth is that the color of the hat does not come from the group of us - our community doesn't directly produce hats. We simply give average head circumferences, list current fashion trends, and point out some shiny, obscure baubles to add to the latest hat line.

CantripN

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Re: Sha'ir Handbook: Semi-Phenomenal, Nearly-Cosmic Power [WIP]
« Reply #22 on: November 22, 2010, 01:00:21 AM »
Traits for +2 Diplomacy!
Polite - http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Polite
Honest - http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Honest

If you choose to be a Half-Elf for some reason, you must take this - http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Sociable_Personality

Since you tend to have a REALLY high Diplomacy anyway - http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Silver_Tongue
Hey, look, it's like Leadership, except you can take it from level 1, and you get +2 Diplomacy - http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Great_Diplomat
You're an Outsider, and +2 Diplomacy - http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Otherworldly
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Sobolev

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Re: Sha'ir Handbook: Semi-Phenomenal, Nearly-Cosmic Power [WIP]
« Reply #23 on: November 22, 2010, 02:44:56 AM »
Traits for +2 Diplomacy!
Polite - http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Polite
Honest - http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Honest

If you choose to be a Half-Elf for some reason, you must take this - http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Sociable_Personality

Since you tend to have a REALLY high Diplomacy anyway - http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Silver_Tongue
Hey, look, it's like Leadership, except you can take it from level 1, and you get +2 Diplomacy - http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Great_Diplomat
You're an Outsider, and +2 Diplomacy - http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Otherworldly

Hm, I hesitate to add the Oriental adventures ones, but I can see adding the rest.  Thanks!
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Quote from: Negative Zero on November 04, 2009, 02:16:14 AM
In my humble opinion, CO is haberdashery. Some say we're mad, but we can all agree we're hatters. Yes, we have potential to make very sophisticated hats, very fancy hats, be they dark or light. But the truth is that the color of the hat does not come from the group of us - our community doesn't directly produce hats. We simply give average head circumferences, list current fashion trends, and point out some shiny, obscure baubles to add to the latest hat line.

Benly

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Re: Sha'ir Handbook: Semi-Phenomenal, Nearly-Cosmic Power [WIP]
« Reply #24 on: November 22, 2010, 03:31:25 AM »
I'm not sure that the gen should be rated as badly as it is. The small air elemental is considered a top choice for Improved Familiar (at least according to the familiars' handbook) and the gen is likewise a high-speed perfect-maneuverability flier who can use your UMD. It's Tiny, so it can sneak around quite nicely, and if you're really worried about its safety it can bail to another plane. It doesn't have the elemental's immunities, but on the other hand you're not blowing a feat for it. I can't see rating it as significantly worse than the wizard/sorcerer familiar: you can't take Improved Familiar, but that's because it's already an improved familiar. It might not be the one you'd have chosen, but on the other hand it didn't cost you a feat.

Sobolev

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Re: Sha'ir Handbook: Semi-Phenomenal, Nearly-Cosmic Power [WIP]
« Reply #25 on: November 22, 2010, 03:37:41 AM »
I'm not sure that the gen should be rated as badly as it is. The small air elemental is considered a top choice for Improved Familiar (at least according to the familiars' handbook) and the gen is likewise a high-speed perfect-maneuverability flier who can use your UMD. It's Tiny, so it can sneak around quite nicely, and if you're really worried about its safety it can bail to another plane. It doesn't have the elemental's immunities, but on the other hand you're not blowing a feat for it. I can't see rating it as significantly worse than the wizard/sorcerer familiar: you can't take Improved Familiar, but that's because it's already an improved familiar. It might not be the one you'd have chosen, but on the other hand it didn't cost you a feat.

This is fair, I think it's mostly because I don't like familiars in general and I don't like losing experience.  Typing out the skills that they have has made them grow on me a little bit more, since they can provide Knowledges and sneak around, along with providing weak spot and search mods.  If you build does get UMD you do have a ton of Charisma and it can replicate it.  I think I'm going to bump them up, though not too high.
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Quote from: Negative Zero on November 04, 2009, 02:16:14 AM
In my humble opinion, CO is haberdashery. Some say we're mad, but we can all agree we're hatters. Yes, we have potential to make very sophisticated hats, very fancy hats, be they dark or light. But the truth is that the color of the hat does not come from the group of us - our community doesn't directly produce hats. We simply give average head circumferences, list current fashion trends, and point out some shiny, obscure baubles to add to the latest hat line.

Benly

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Re: Sha'ir Handbook: Semi-Phenomenal, Nearly-Cosmic Power [WIP]
« Reply #26 on: November 22, 2010, 03:57:04 AM »
Also, looking things over, I'm not sure "requires you to be good" is really a noteworthy drawback to Nymph's Kiss. The sha'ir doesn't really have a whole lot of other reasons to want to go with any particular alignment, and I rarely see handbooks mark down feats or classes that require you to be evil even though that's frequently a bigger problem for a PC build.

Sobolev

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Re: Sha'ir Handbook: Semi-Phenomenal, Nearly-Cosmic Power [WIP]
« Reply #27 on: November 22, 2010, 04:05:44 AM »
Eh, that's fair, I think then it's going to be purple because a +2 Diplomacy and extra skill points is just excellent for this class.

If either Benly or CantripN (or anyone) wants to expand and make a full build out of sha'ir 8/skypledged 7/contemplative 1/dweomerkeeper 4 complete with feats I'll put it in the thread.  Give the build a name too and I'll credit you and put the build's name. 

Other builds welcome as well, I just know that's one that came out of the other thread.
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Quote from: Negative Zero on November 04, 2009, 02:16:14 AM
In my humble opinion, CO is haberdashery. Some say we're mad, but we can all agree we're hatters. Yes, we have potential to make very sophisticated hats, very fancy hats, be they dark or light. But the truth is that the color of the hat does not come from the group of us - our community doesn't directly produce hats. We simply give average head circumferences, list current fashion trends, and point out some shiny, obscure baubles to add to the latest hat line.

Garryl

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Re: Sha'ir Handbook: Semi-Phenomenal, Nearly-Cosmic Power [WIP]
« Reply #28 on: November 22, 2010, 04:23:22 AM »
I'm pretty sure you can get Otherworldly through something called a Celestial-attended birth. I don't know anything more than that, but it's been mentioned on these boards more than a few times.
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Sobolev

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Re: Sha'ir Handbook: Semi-Phenomenal, Nearly-Cosmic Power [WIP]
« Reply #29 on: November 22, 2010, 04:45:05 AM »
I'm pretty sure you can get Otherworldly through something called a Celestial-attended birth. I don't know anything more than that, but it's been mentioned on these boards more than a few times.

Regional Background that allows you to qualify.  Worth putting in the guide, thanks for pointing this out.
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Quote from: Negative Zero on November 04, 2009, 02:16:14 AM
In my humble opinion, CO is haberdashery. Some say we're mad, but we can all agree we're hatters. Yes, we have potential to make very sophisticated hats, very fancy hats, be they dark or light. But the truth is that the color of the hat does not come from the group of us - our community doesn't directly produce hats. We simply give average head circumferences, list current fashion trends, and point out some shiny, obscure baubles to add to the latest hat line.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Sha'ir Handbook: Semi-Phenomenal, Nearly-Cosmic Power [WIP]
« Reply #30 on: November 22, 2010, 04:46:54 AM »
I'm not sure that the gen should be rated as badly as it is. The small air elemental is considered a top choice for Improved Familiar (at least according to the familiars' handbook) and the gen is likewise a high-speed perfect-maneuverability flier who can use your UMD. It's Tiny, so it can sneak around quite nicely, and if you're really worried about its safety it can bail to another plane. It doesn't have the elemental's immunities, but on the other hand you're not blowing a feat for it. I can't see rating it as significantly worse than the wizard/sorcerer familiar: you can't take Improved Familiar, but that's because it's already an improved familiar. It might not be the one you'd have chosen, but on the other hand it didn't cost you a feat.
Yes, well, the familiar's handbook is wrong.  It's not worth burning a feat over when you can cast a spell and do the same thing.
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Re: Sha'ir Handbook: Semi-Phenomenal, Nearly-Cosmic Power [WIP]
« Reply #31 on: November 22, 2010, 05:01:22 AM »
Yes, well, the familiar's handbook is wrong.  It's not worth burning a feat over when you can cast a spell and do the same thing.

Okay. It still doesn't change that the gen is rather superior to a standard-issue sorc/wiz familiar in its abilities, and any familiar-buffing the wizard was doing works fine for the sha'ir. (Since it's an outsider, it'll actually gain more from polymorph or alter self than non-Improved familiars would, too.) Yes, it sucks if your gen dies, but it's not like you'd be treating a standard familiar as expendable either and the gen has the "plane shift out if he gets in trouble" option.

Sobolev

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Re: Sha'ir Handbook: Semi-Phenomenal, Nearly-Cosmic Power [WIP]
« Reply #32 on: November 22, 2010, 05:08:16 AM »
Yes, well, the familiar's handbook is wrong.  It's not worth burning a feat over when you can cast a spell and do the same thing.

Okay. It still doesn't change that the gen is rather superior to a standard-issue sorc/wiz familiar in its abilities, and any familiar-buffing the wizard was doing works fine for the sha'ir. (Since it's an outsider, it'll actually gain more from polymorph or alter self than non-Improved familiars would, too.) Yes, it sucks if your gen dies, but it's not like you'd be treating a standard familiar as expendable either and the gen has the "plane shift out if he gets in trouble" option.

I bumped it up to "Meh" because I agree with this, however I still think Familiars in general are sort of whatever.  I agree however that Gen are better than regular familiars and I would much rather have a Gen much of the time.
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Quote from: Negative Zero on November 04, 2009, 02:16:14 AM
In my humble opinion, CO is haberdashery. Some say we're mad, but we can all agree we're hatters. Yes, we have potential to make very sophisticated hats, very fancy hats, be they dark or light. But the truth is that the color of the hat does not come from the group of us - our community doesn't directly produce hats. We simply give average head circumferences, list current fashion trends, and point out some shiny, obscure baubles to add to the latest hat line.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Sha'ir Handbook: Semi-Phenomenal, Nearly-Cosmic Power [WIP]
« Reply #33 on: November 22, 2010, 05:13:34 AM »
Yes, well, the familiar's handbook is wrong.  It's not worth burning a feat over when you can cast a spell and do the same thing.

Okay. It still doesn't change that the gen is rather superior to a standard-issue sorc/wiz familiar in its abilities, and any familiar-buffing the wizard was doing works fine for the sha'ir. (Since it's an outsider, it'll actually gain more from polymorph or alter self than non-Improved familiars would, too.) Yes, it sucks if your gen dies, but it's not like you'd be treating a standard familiar as expendable either and the gen has the "plane shift out if he gets in trouble" option.
I was referring to elemental familiar and planar familiar.
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Sobolev

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Re: Sha'ir Handbook: Semi-Phenomenal, Nearly-Cosmic Power [WIP]
« Reply #34 on: November 22, 2010, 05:32:14 AM »
TML, what's your opinion on Ghost Sha'ir?  Charisma Bonus and Telekinesis for the win?
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Quote from: Negative Zero on November 04, 2009, 02:16:14 AM
In my humble opinion, CO is haberdashery. Some say we're mad, but we can all agree we're hatters. Yes, we have potential to make very sophisticated hats, very fancy hats, be they dark or light. But the truth is that the color of the hat does not come from the group of us - our community doesn't directly produce hats. We simply give average head circumferences, list current fashion trends, and point out some shiny, obscure baubles to add to the latest hat line.

Benly

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Re: Sha'ir Handbook: Semi-Phenomenal, Nearly-Cosmic Power [WIP]
« Reply #35 on: November 22, 2010, 05:35:22 AM »
I was referring to elemental familiar and planar familiar.

Okay. You can still cast those on a gen, except that a gen is already about as good as an elemental so hey, 500 XP saved, whoo.

I mean, the point I'm getting at here is that other than Improved Familiar, basically any stupid pet trick you can do with a regular-flavor familiar you can do with a gen, and the gen is all-around better in most regards than a regular-flavor familiar aside from that.

Sobolev

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Re: Sha'ir Handbook: Semi-Phenomenal, Nearly-Cosmic Power [WIP]
« Reply #36 on: November 22, 2010, 06:22:47 AM »
Done working for the night.  Feel free to post opposition or more ideas.  Call me out if you want credit for something and you think you're not getting it.  I'm not quite done with that part anyway, but if you want to be included speak up so I don't forget anyone!  I also need more builds or even a better version of the build I made in 5 minutes.  More feats also.
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Quote from: Negative Zero on November 04, 2009, 02:16:14 AM
In my humble opinion, CO is haberdashery. Some say we're mad, but we can all agree we're hatters. Yes, we have potential to make very sophisticated hats, very fancy hats, be they dark or light. But the truth is that the color of the hat does not come from the group of us - our community doesn't directly produce hats. We simply give average head circumferences, list current fashion trends, and point out some shiny, obscure baubles to add to the latest hat line.

Benly

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Re: Sha'ir Handbook: Semi-Phenomenal, Nearly-Cosmic Power [WIP]
« Reply #37 on: November 22, 2010, 07:05:45 AM »
A problem with your build is that neither sha'ir nor Skypledged gets K: Religion as a class skill, so you don't have the max ranks to qualify for Contemplative. Taking Education as your first-level feat and putting off Nymph's Kiss to 3 will cover that. I was thinking of using Apprentice to pick up UMD in the process but I forgot that it stops giving you the class-skill cost for ranks after 5, so you're better off getting K: Religion with Education and using the ranks you save buying it as a class skill to man up and buy UMD crossclass. Also worth bearing in mind is that Skypledged doesn't have Diplomacy as a class skill, so while Skypledged has two more skills/lvl than sha'ir, you're spending one of those as a cross-class tax on keeping up Diplomacy.

You can qualify for the build with just a +1 int bonus, but you won't have any room for skills before 16 other than Diplomacy, Spellcraft, Concentration, and just enough K: Religion and K: Arcana to qualify for Contemplative and Dweomerkeeper respectively. A +2 int bonus loosens up considerable breathing room and gives you the option of synergy bonuses, crossclass UMD, or whatnot, so I highly recommend it.

Feat rundown, in case it's not obvious:
1: Educated (Eberron Campaign Setting)
3: Nymph's Kiss (Book of Exalted Deeds)
6: Your Favorite Metamagic Or Item-Creation Feat
9: Your Favorite Item-Creation Or Metamagic Feat

..and whatever you feel like after that. You can put off the metamagic or item feats until 12 or 15, but there's not a whole lot of reason to since they're pretty useful anyway. Skills are The Obvious Three at every level, K: Arcana and K: Religion until you've got enough for your PrCs, and either synergy bonuses for diplomacy or cross-class UMD once you've got that covered.

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Re: Sha'ir Handbook: Semi-Phenomenal, Nearly-Cosmic Power [WIP]
« Reply #38 on: November 22, 2010, 09:20:00 AM »
You had to go and mention vow of poverty.

Okay, let's try this:

Sha'ir 7 / Apostle of Peace 2 / Mystic Theurge 10 / Whatever 1. Obviously would be better with Ur-Priest (not that sha'ir can get ur-priest), but this is a very strong defensive character with dual nines (as well as DMM if you like) - and vow of poverty is pretty much as good on this guy as it will ever be on anyone ever.

Come to think of it, the fact that you can advance the Sha'ir with either side of a dual advancement class is pretty nice - perhaps there are some interesting tricks we can pull off with that.

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Re: Sha'ir Handbook: Semi-Phenomenal, Nearly-Cosmic Power [WIP]
« Reply #39 on: November 22, 2010, 10:38:50 AM »
If that's true, then that might let you pull off some sort of Sha'ir, Divine Bard, Sublime Chord, Fochlucan Lyrist shenanigans. Completely charisma based too.