Author Topic: Monk's Handbook  (Read 252425 times)

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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Monk's Handbook
« Reply #80 on: August 07, 2008, 10:54:23 PM »
then dont say something is not a Monk Build, when it clearly is a Monk Build

 :D
I don't think he did. It was another poster.
[spoiler]
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Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
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dman11235

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Re: Monk's Handbook
« Reply #81 on: August 07, 2008, 11:08:13 PM »
Right.  It was katans.
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carnivore

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Re: Monk's Handbook
« Reply #82 on: August 07, 2008, 11:16:09 PM »
I don't think he did. It was another poster.

you are correct .... my appologies dman11235


also if this is how you are Defining Monks:

Quote
archetypal unarmed/unarmored combatant.

fine ... i can provide a whole bunch of them..... but they will be Uniquely different than the run of the mill "Monk" characters

 :D
« Last Edit: August 08, 2008, 11:39:21 AM by carnivore »

katans

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Re: Monk's Handbook
« Reply #83 on: August 08, 2008, 11:21:04 AM »
Yes, yes, it was me, sorry, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa *hitting myself with a copy of Complete Psionics and walking barefoot on a field of d4's*

Dictum Mortuum

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Re: Monk's Handbook
« Reply #84 on: August 08, 2008, 11:42:38 AM »
lol :P
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Dictum Mortuum

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Re: Monk's Handbook
« Reply #85 on: August 10, 2008, 03:25:13 PM »
Although not actually a monk, i like a character with the ascetic rogue feat. Rogue 18/Monk 2 (with penetrating strike, disruptive attack and invisible fist alternative features). Carmendine monk greatly helps with MAD. You can use scorpion kama to make use of your unarmed strike damage and get useful weapon enhancements. Eventually you deal 2d10 + 9d6 damage on each hit on flat-footed or flanked targets, which is quite fat. If you add changeling and some demoralizing tricks to the equation you become the party face and debuffer.

For this to work, you need to use the ascetic rogue table description, too (rogue + monk levels stack for sneak attack damage)

Changeling Rogue 18/Monk 2 with the following variants:

  • Penetrating Strike: Get rid of that trap sense, it doesn't help much anyways.
  • Disruptive Attack: -5 to AC greatly helps if your team members are two weapon fighters or power attacking brutes or even other sneak attackers. Just make sure that they will act after you do to benefit from the AC reduction.
  • Invisible Fist: You gain the evasion back from rogue anyway. This helps delivering your sneak attacks, as it's an immediate action invisibility spell every three rounds! Also, the to hit bonus is not bad at all.
  • Martial Rogue: Give away that sneak attack for additional fighter bonus feats. Tasty. However that way you will face a problem getting ascetic rogue, but thankfully there is a way around that!
  • Changeling Rogue Sub levels: Really really good stuff! You won't be able to take the 3rd level because of penetrating strike, but since at that level you won't have sneak attack just yet, it will be next to useless. You might as well get this one instead

Build:

Changeling Rogue 1    Martial Study (Shadow Hand Maneuver), Wanderer's Diplomacy
Rogue 2Fighter Feat
Changeling Rogue 3Darkstalker
Rogue 4Fighter Feat
Rogue 5
Rogue 6Imperious Command, Fighter Feat
Rogue 7
Monk 1Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist
Monk 2Combat Reflexes, Carmendine Monk
Changeling Rogue 8Martial Study (Assassin's Stance)
Rogue 9
Rogue 10Fighter Feat, Ascetic Stalker
Rogue 11
Rogue 12Fighter Feat
Rogue 13Savvy Rogue
Rogue 14Fighter Feat
Rogue 15
Rogue 16Fighter Feat, Feat
Rogue 17
Rogue 18Fighter Feat

So we have:

  • Monk 20 unarmed strike damage
  • Rogue 20 sneak attack progression + 2d6
  • Fighter 20 bonus fighter feats
  • 14 BAB, 9/14/9 saves
  • Incredible skills: hide, move silently, intimidate, diplomacy, bluff, sense motive, UMD, etc
  • Changeling change shape - even better spy
  • Easy way of delivering sneak attack damage (invisible fist)
  • Imperious Command + Intimidate + Changeling bonuses: easy to debuff opponents to help party spellcasters
  • Skill Mastery in useful skills, enabling you to take different rogue special abilities
  • Reduced MAD thanks to carmendine monk and int to AC
  • 50% fortification
  • Can use scorpion kamas to benefit from unarmed strike damage and weapon enhancements. Can also use the low cost tricks to boost unarmed strike damage.
  • Minor lore is useful since your rogue level is fairly high

I'm looking for ways to boost AC and what to do with all that fighter bonus feats!
« Last Edit: August 12, 2008, 01:33:14 AM by Dictum Mortuum »
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carnivore

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Re: Monk's Handbook
« Reply #86 on: August 10, 2008, 10:38:52 PM »
very nice .... but IIRC, ectoplasmic fist... is for Kalashtar or Inspired or Empty vessals only..... just take improved natural Attack.... go with TWF,Imp TWF, Greater TWF, Double Hit, Deft opportunist, Robilars Gambit and Quick Reconoiter.... also Add Shadow Blade(gain Dex to Damage), and Weapon Finnesse(Dex to Attack)

adds great Combat abilities.... more initial Attacks, and more Retributive attacks with a Boost to the Attack roll.

also the Build only relies on Dex and Int....

Dex to Attack
Dex to Damage
Dex to Init
Dex to AC
Int to AC

Quick Reconoiter boosts detection abilities and Initiative

very nice

 :D

carnivore

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Re: Monk's Handbook
« Reply #87 on: August 10, 2008, 11:08:00 PM »
Myth:
Quote
Unfortunately, there aren’t very many more paths you can take with this concept.  Ranged combat is out of the question,

wrong..... try this:
Monk Archer

anthropomorphic Bat(-4 Str,+6 Wis,-2 Cha)Small size, spd 5'/Fly 20'(Average)
Monk 2/ Soulknife 2/ Fighter 2/ Soulbow 8/ Shou Disciple 5/ Cragtop Archer 1
 
Attributes(32pt Buy)

6 Str(10-4 racial)
26 Dex(16+ 4 Inherent(tome)+ 6 Item)
14 Con(14)
12 Int(12)
38 Wis(16+6 racial +5 Levels +5 Inherent(Tome) +6 Item)
6 Cha(8-2 racial)
 

Feats:
Monastic Training(Soulbow) (monk bonus)
Combat Reflexes(monk bonus)
Weapon Focus(mindblade/Mindarrows) (Soulknife bonus)
Wild Talent(Soulknife bonus)
Far Shot(fighter bonus)
Dodge(fighter bonus)
Rapid Shot(Soulbow Bonus)
Precise Shot(Soulbow Bonus)
Zen Archery(Soulbow Bonus)
Many Shot(Soulbow Bonus)
Improved initiative(Shou Disciple bonus)
Deflect Arrows(Shou Disciple bonus)
1st lvl: Point blank Shot
3rd lvl: Far Shot
6th lvl: Mountain Warrior
9th lvl: Tashalatora(Soulbow)
12th lvl: Weapon Focus(Unarmed Strike)
15th lvl: Improved Rapid Shot
18th lvl: Robilars Gambit

BAB +16

Attack bonus: BAB+16+ 14 Wis +1 WF +1 Pt blk Shot +1 Higher ground +3 Enhancement +1 size +2 competence +1 haste= +40 to Hit
Full Attack(with Greater Flurry and Rapid Shot and Speed)

+40/+40/+40/+40/+40/+35/+30/+25

or use Phase Arrow with Manyshot and gain 4 Ranged Touch Attacks @ +40/+35/+30/+25

Damage with Mind Arrow:
1d6= 3.5
3.5+3 enhancement +14 Wis +2 Cragtop archer +1 Competence= +23 Damage minimum .... not counting Bane ability or elemental damage from Soulbow

items:
Boots of Speed
+6 item of Wisdom
+6 item of Dex
+5 Tome Wisdom
+4 Tome Dex
Greater bracers of Archery

Alternative #1
anthropomorphic Bat (-4 Str,+6 Wis,-2 Cha)Small size, spd 5'/Fly 20'(Average)
Monk 3/ Soulknife 2/ Fighter 2/ Soulbow 8/ Shou Disciple 5


id say a Monk can be a decent Archer.... and i will supply some more Monk Archer Builds ... to support this if it is not apparent

 :D
« Last Edit: August 10, 2008, 11:10:18 PM by carnivore »

carnivore

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Re: Monk's Handbook
« Reply #88 on: August 10, 2008, 11:21:29 PM »
SAMPLE BUILDS

The S.S. Icanhealbetterthanahealer-dman11235

Race: changeling
Alignment: any.
Monk (Passive Way) 2/psychic warrior 2/swordsage 1/initiate of draconic mysteries 4/SS+1/shadow sun ninja 1/fist of the forest 3/warshaper 2/IoDM+4

<SNIP>

Items: Monk’s Belt, Monk’s Tattoo, Fanged Ring, Necklace of Natural Attacks

Full attack is 4 unarmed strikes at 36d8 (or 48d8, depending on your extrapolation of the chart) damage each, and insane trip modifiers, as well as decent reach.  Add in Inhuman Reach and one more Warshaper level for +10 foot reach.  Add in Broken Fist Masteries I and II and Knock-Down for more trippy goodness.  Tomb-Tainted Soul somewhere in the party would be great, and would make the healing go twice as fast.

<SNIP>

Any more good builds are welcome, and advise on existing ones is welcome as well.

bad things.... this Build has a BAB of +12.... thus it gets with Flurry:

+10/+10/+10/+5/+0......... this means that unless he is attacking the ground, he wont hit anything..... getting ave 126 damage a hit is meaningless unless you have a Way to hit things.... even if he has a custom item that allows all his attacks to be touch attacks...some still wont hit.... it will require major Str/Dex or Wis(base/Weapon Finnesse/ intuitive Attack) to assist and he still needs more...since Many of the badder BBEGs have AC 35+(Balor, AC 35), (Pit Fiend, AC 40) (Great Wyrm White Dragon, AC 41)

lesson:

BAB is Important... dont try to gain Damage at the cost of actually hitting


also... Fanged Rings only give improved Unarmed Stirke and Improved natural Attack... the were Updated in Drow of the underdark... they no longer boost damage Dice size

 :D
« Last Edit: August 12, 2008, 03:10:49 AM by carnivore »

Dictum Mortuum

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Re: Monk's Handbook
« Reply #89 on: August 11, 2008, 12:10:07 AM »
very nice .... but IIRC, ectoplasmic fist... is for Kalashtar or Inspired or Empty vessals only.....

Damn :( You are right, i missed that!
I don't want to boost dexterity. I think it's overrated. Strength is ok for hitting stuff and i won't have to take two feats to get dexterity to damage and to hit. That way however, i won't be able to get many attacks (only three or four, maybe one more if i am hasted) but that's ok. The guy is intellectual and i'm trying to get stuff like that.

So far i like the mage slayer build. The one that pierces magical concealment works magic for your sneak attack damage. I'll grab some useful ambush feats with my open general feats probably.
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ninjarabbit

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Re: Monk's Handbook
« Reply #90 on: August 11, 2008, 02:09:39 AM »
monk11/paladin5/psi-fist4

Key and required feats: ascetic knight, power attack, divine might, maybe serenity if Dragon is allowed, improved natural attack, wild talent, maybe snap kick, maybe jumping kick, practiced manifester

16 BAB, greater flurry with pounce thanks to psionic lion's charge, unarmed damage as a 20th level monk, bonus to AC and unarmed speed as a 15th level monk, smiting as a 16th level paladin

carnivore

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Re: Monk's Handbook
« Reply #91 on: August 11, 2008, 12:06:54 PM »
monk11/paladin5/psi-fist4

Key and required feats: ascetic knight, power attack, divine might, maybe serenity if Dragon is allowed, improved natural attack, wild talent, maybe snap kick, maybe jumping kick, practiced manifester

16 BAB, greater flurry with pounce thanks to psionic lion's charge, unarmed damage as a 20th level monk, bonus to AC and unarmed speed as a 15th level monk, smiting as a 16th level paladin
i would change it to:

Monk 6/ Paladin 4/ Warmind 10
BAB +18

feats:
Monastic Training(Warmind)(monk bonus)
Combat Reflexes(monk Bonus)
Imp Trip(monk Bonus)
Ascetic Knight
power attack
divine might
improved natural attack
wild talent
Tashalatora(Warmind)
Robilars Gambit

Still have Greater Flurry... but better Psionics and better BAB

 :D

carnivore

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Re: Monk's Handbook
« Reply #92 on: August 11, 2008, 12:46:11 PM »
Myth
Quote
When I talk about monks, I am referring to both the class presented in the Player’s Handbook and the archetypal unarmed/unarmored combatant.  Yes, the archetype has been hyped up so much in fantasy it has its own class in the Player’s Handbook.  Imagine my surprise when it turns out that the class isn’t very good on its own.  I love this concept though (and I’m sure many of you feel the same way), so here I am trying to make this concept a viable one. 
<SNIP>

There are a couple rules when building a monk.  The first one is multiclass.  The second one is prestige class.  The third is don’t take more than 6 levels of monk.  And the fourth is to increase unarmed damage whenever possible, to make it viable as a weapon.  And the fifth is DON’T TAKE MORE THAN SIX LEVELS!

WRONG
in fact single classed Monks can be quite useful .... even Core Single classed monks..... try this:

Elf
Monk 20

Stats:(32pt buy)

10 Str
34 Dex(16+ 2 racial + 5 lvls +5 Inherent(Tome) +6 item)
20 Con(16-2 racial +6 item)
12 Int
24 Wis(14 +4 inherent +6 item)
8 Cha


Feats:
Imp Grapple(Monk Bonus)
Deflect Arrows(Monk Bonus)
Imp Disarm(monk Bonus)
1st lvl: Point Blank Shot
3rd lvl: Weapon Finnesse
6th lvl: Precise Shot
9th lvl: Dodge
12th lvl: Mobility
15th lvl: Shoot-on-the-run
18th lvl: Run

Items:
+5 tome Dex
+4 Tome Wis
+6 item Dex
+6 item Wis
+8 Bracers of Armor
Boots of Speed
+5 Ring of Protection
+5 Ring ot Natural Armor
+1 Holy Axiomatic Seeking Composite Longbow
+1 Flaming Frost Shocking Ghost touch Seeking Speed Distance Composite Longbow



what can this character do?

it is a Very Effective Scout/Ranged Support character..... because it has greater Flurry and Weapon Finnesse with a High Dex, this archer does not fear Melee

BAB +15 +12 Dex= +27 to attack minimum without any other items...
(Unarmed)Full Attack (w/ Haste)= +28/+28/+28/+28/+23/+18/+13
Damage 2d10

(Ranged)Full Attack (w/ Haste and +5 Bow with +5 specials))= +33/+33/+28/+23.. ignore Miss from Concealment
1d8+3d6+5 Enhancement


the nice thing is it also has a decent AC..  even when moving at high Speed

AC= Base 10+ 12 Dex+ 7 Wis +8 Armor +5 Deflection +5 Natural Armor +2 Dodge +4Monk= AC 53

Speed = 30 +60 Enhancement = Speed 90, but can boost to Speed 450' when Running with no loss of AC, this is more than 2x the base speed of some Dragons

since he has a High Wisdom and Dex , combined with 23 ranks of Hide, Move silent, Listen, Spot..... he can be very Stealthy and detect foes first... then move @ High Speed to report findings
 :D
« Last Edit: August 11, 2008, 07:57:13 PM by carnivore »

carnivore

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Re: Monk's Handbook
« Reply #93 on: August 11, 2008, 07:51:28 PM »
Myth=
Quote
Unfortunately, there aren’t very many more paths you can take with this concept.  Ranged combat is out of the question, as is skill monkeying, due to the lack of support for either one.  Sure the skill list is nice (and has Diplomacy!) but with int being a low priority stat and only 4+int skills, there’s not much to do here, you’re stuck with either hide/move silently or spot/listen and then tumble and one other, without an int bonus.  It is also hard to do more than two of the above things, due to the lack of versatility present in the class
WRONG.... lets try 2 things:
Ranged combat Monk/ Battlefield Control.... with a little Skill-monkey added

Human
Monk(Cobra Strike variant) 12/ Swashbuckler 3/ Master thrower 5

Attributes:(32 point buy)
10 Str
30 Dex(16+3 lvls +5 Inherent +6 item)
14 Con
28 Int(16 +2 lvl +4 Inherent +6 item)
12 Wis
8 Cha


Feats:
Dodge (Monk Bonus)
Mobility (Monk Bonus)
Spring Attack (Monk Bonus)
Weapon Finnesse(Swashbuckler bonus)
Educated(human Bonus)
Quickdraw(Master Thrower bonus)
Improved Crit(Sai) (Master Thrower bonus)
Snatch Arrows(Master Thrower bonus)
1st lvl: Carmondine monk
3rd lvl: Knowledge Devotion
6th lvl: Weapon Focus(Sai)
9th lvl: Point Blank Shot
12th lvl: Precise Shot
15th lvl: Rapid shot
18th lvl: TWF

Items:
+5 tome Dex
+4 Tome Int
+6 item Dex
+6 item Int
+8 Bracers of Armor
Boots of Speed
+5 Ring of Protection
+5 Ring ot Natural Armor



Master Thrower-class abilities
Thrown Weapon Tricks:
Palm Throw – Each attack with little thrown weapons (i.e., daggers, shuriken, & darts) can be with two of the weapons. Do not apply your Strength modifier to the damage of either.

Trip Shot – On a successful thrown weapon attack, you can make a Trip Attack in addition to the damage. Make a Dexterity check with a +4 bonus opposed by your the opponent’s Strength or Dexterity check (whichever is better). Advantages such as ‘Stability’ apply.

Weak Spot – When attacking an opponent of your size or larger, you may make a Ranged Touch Attack (instead of a Normal Ranged Attack), though you may not apply your Strength modifier to the damage.


how does this work?:THROW SAIs(Exotic Monk Weapons)
you have Great Attacking abilities... due to only 2 main attributes needed: Dex and Int
All Attacks are based on Dex, Ranged and Melee.... you can Add Int to Damage for Melee Attacks

BAB=+17
Attack Bonus= 17 BAB +10 Dex +1 WF +5 Insight +1 Ptblk Shot +5 Enhancement +1 Haste= +40 Attack

Full Attack with Greater Flurry and TWF and Rapid Shot and Haste and Palm Throw=

(+36/+36),(+36/+36),(+36/+36),(+36/+36),(+36/+36),(+31/+31),(+26/+26),(+21/+21)....... but remember...ALL of these are Ranged TOUCH ATTACKS.... and they can all be Trip Attacks, using Dex instead of Str

as for Damage... Sai = 1d4 Bludgeoning +5 Enhancement +5 Insight = 12 per hit... with 16 hits = 192 damage/round

also... he has a Lot of Skills... and All Knowledge Skills are Class Skills
Unarmed Damage = 2d6+8 Int

and this character can make great use of Spring Attacks due to his 70' Speed

AC is great:
Base 10 + 2 monk +10 Dex +8 int +2 Dodge +8 Armor +5 Deflection +5 Natural Armor = AC 50
he can hit you, but you cant hit him :lol

 :D

« Last Edit: August 11, 2008, 11:10:18 PM by carnivore »

ninjarabbit

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Re: Monk's Handbook
« Reply #94 on: August 11, 2008, 10:59:57 PM »
monk1/wizard4/enlightenedfist10/abjurantchampion5

14 BAB, 17 CL, 11th level monk abilities

Obviously you'll want the carmondine monk feat for int synergy. Arcane strike, quicken spell, knowledge devotion or superior unarmed strike, and practiced spellcaster are also highly recommended. I'd probably go focused transmuter.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2008, 12:42:41 AM by ninjarabbit »

carnivore

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Re: Monk's Handbook
« Reply #95 on: August 18, 2008, 02:26:24 AM »
Pyrokineticist optimization + Monk...

ideally you would want to also Maximize the Flurry of blows from Monk .... try this:


Human
Monk(Sleeping tiger variant) 11/ Pyrokineticist 4

feats:

Imp unarmed Strike(monk bonus)
Weapon Finnesse(monk bonus)
Imp Initiative(monk Bonus)
Imp Sunder(monk Bonus)
Wild talent(human bonus)
1st lvl: Combat reflexes
3rd lvl: Power Attack
6th lvl: Imp Natural Attack
9th lvl: Flying Kick ........ req: Str 13, Jump 4 ranks, Imp Unarmed Strike, Power Attack
+1d12 damage on charge(with unarmed strike)
12th lvl: Sanctify Ki Strike
15th lvl: Robilars gambit

unarmed Strikes do 2d8(because +1 size to 1d10= 2d8)+ 2d6 Hand Afire + 2d6 Weapon Afire

this requires a shift in alignment .... but atonement makes it ok  ;)

 :D
« Last Edit: August 18, 2008, 10:31:28 PM by carnivore »

Tshern

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Re: Monk's Handbook
« Reply #96 on: August 18, 2008, 10:23:35 PM »
I think it's not too much about the Monk being sucky, but the opportunity cost. Most of the things done with several Monk levels can easily be duplicated by other classes (while getting other benefits) or with a small dip to Monk.
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carnivore

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Re: Monk's Handbook
« Reply #97 on: August 18, 2008, 10:34:41 PM »
i agree ... but i believe that you can Make a Viable Monk that can be very effective in many areas(not all at the same time).... but i dont think monks are ONLY about Unarmed Damage... that is not what makes the class work ... it has several things that work together to form a balanced character... however it is not easy to make a Good monk Build... nor is it easy to play one..... Monks are designed for a more experienced player who understands Gameplay and Build concepts

 :D

Tshern

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Re: Monk's Handbook
« Reply #98 on: August 18, 2008, 10:44:32 PM »
Now it is my turn to agree. Monk's can be viable at numerous areas, but it is not easy. The same way playing a Wizard effectively is no cakewalk.
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ninjarabbit

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Re: Monk's Handbook
« Reply #99 on: September 09, 2008, 04:05:55 AM »
If you're going to use a camerdine monk then knowledge devotion becomes an excellent feat for a monk. It'll give you all knowledge skill as class skills and bonuses to hit and damage based on your knowledge check. It's basically a non-crappy version of the weapon focus and weapon specialization feats..... except it costs only one feat instead ofseveral and it applies regardless of what weapon you're using.