Author Topic: Monk's Handbook  (Read 253129 times)

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carnivore

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Re: Monk's Handbook
« Reply #60 on: August 06, 2008, 11:36:55 AM »
and can you show me where it says Unarmed Strikes "cant" be used for itterative attacks and Off hand attacks... especially since the FAQ said You Must Use Unarmed Strikes (or Monk weapons) with FoB and that you "can" use Unarmed Strikes as Off-hand attacks with FoB... what is so confusing about that.

the FAQ IS RAW, as is Errata... both Are Official adjustments from WoTC for the D&D 3.5 game.

 :D
« Last Edit: August 06, 2008, 11:44:17 AM by carnivore »

Dictum Mortuum

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Re: Monk's Handbook
« Reply #61 on: August 06, 2008, 12:28:33 PM »
Although not actually a monk, i like a character with the ascetic rogue feat. Rogue 18/Monk 2 (with penetrating strike, disruptive attack and invisible fist alternative features). Carmendine monk greatly helps with MAD. You can use scorpion kama to make use of your unarmed strike damage and get useful weapon enhancements. Eventually you deal 2d10 + 9d6 damage on each hit on flat-footed or flanked targets, which is quite fat. If you add changeling and some demoralizing tricks to the equation you become the party face and debuffer.
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dman11235

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Re: Monk's Handbook
« Reply #62 on: August 06, 2008, 02:58:13 PM »
Where is the Invisible Fist alternative?

Thinking out loud, trading 1d6 SA (and three levels of skill point, so you'll be rogue 15 with some more, just use items to boost skills, and one special ability: you only need two special abilities: crippling strike and skill mastery) will put the damage at 6d8+8d6 (with the Kama even), then (cheese, I know) GMWhallop on your unarmed strike will get you up to 22d8+8d6 SA.  And this works for halflings too.  Throwing scorpion kamas.....master thrower.....all that damage (minus a couple more SA) as touch attacks....Or 16d8 for only one level of FotF (and keep one more SA dice and special ability with no MT levels).  Only problem with this is getting enough scorpion kamas and remaining hidden.  There may be real potential here...

Quote
and can you show me where it says Unarmed Strikes "cant" be used for itterative attacks and Off hand attacks... especially since the FAQ said You Must Use Unarmed Strikes (or Monk weapons) with FoB and that you "can" use Unarmed Strikes as Off-hand attacks with FoB... what is so confusing about that.

That is the burden of proof fallacy.  also you mince words here.  It does not suggest that unarmed strikes are in a different category here than other special monk weapons.  In fact, where is this quote from?
Quote
...attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons...
The SRD.  Under the FoB entry.  Note the....almost exact....similarity to the FAQ....

And you know what?  I will still show that you only have one unarmed strike.

Look at the weapon entry.  Does it say that it's a double weapon?  No?  There's your answer.

Quote
the FAQ IS RAW, as is Errata... both Are Official adjustments from WoTC for the D&D 3.5 game.

Both may be official, but only the books themselves and the Errata are RAW.  The FAQ is a more trustworthy source of info than, say, CustServ, but it has been wrong in the past (including times where it blatantly contradicts the rules).  Also, the FAQ is not rules, it is merely interpretations of the rules.  Only the books are the actual rules, and the Errata changes what is in the books.  Therefore, the FAQ is not RAW.  Read: Rules As Written.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2008, 03:06:55 PM by dman11235 »
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Dictum Mortuum

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Re: Monk's Handbook
« Reply #63 on: August 06, 2008, 03:14:12 PM »
It's in exemplars of evil, but doesn't require you to be evil to get it. You trade evasion (which you can get back easily) with immediate action insvisibility (duration 1 round) once per three rounds. Later you gain the ability to blink instead of improved evasion. For delivering sneak attacks it's great.

I am not sure on what you want to spend those 3 levels on, probably master thrower? You can't throw a kama and i am too bored to look up the rules for throwing weapons without a range increment. I know you can greatly boost the unarmed damage, i only mentioned it because without really optimizing you can already have respectable base damage.

It's a nice combination due to synergy. The monk side helps delivering sneak attacks and the rogue side continues your unarmed damage. It's like the tables have turned :P. Carmendine monks then makes stunning fist a valid strategy (as ascetic rogue gives you a bonus +2 DC if you are also sneak attacking your target).

Well, i haven't played a non-caster in ages, so i don't know if it will work, but i like it.
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Monk's Handbook
« Reply #64 on: August 06, 2008, 05:50:20 PM »
Quote
and can you show me where it says Unarmed Strikes "cant" be used for itterative attacks and Off hand attacks... especially since the FAQ said You Must Use Unarmed Strikes (or Monk weapons) with FoB and that you "can" use Unarmed Strikes as Off-hand attacks with FoB... what is so confusing about that.

That is the burden of proof fallacy. 
No its not. Normally you can use whatever weapons you want with TWF. That is the implied assumption unless the rules state otherwise. So if you want to prove otherwise, the burden of proof IS on you.

Carnivore's quotes show that you can 1) combine TWF and FoB, and 2) use your IUS as your "off-hand" weapon. Nothing anywhere states that you can't do both at the same time. Since they are both explicitly legal per the FAQ, and since you can normally use whatever weapon you want with TWF, it is logical to assume you can combine them.

I really don't see why you (or anyone else) has an objection to it, unless you're just being resistant to changing interpretations, and clinging to the old "a monk using an US doesn't have an off-hand" argument, which is explicitly stated as being incorrect in the FAQ.
[spoiler]
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carnivore

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Re: Monk's Handbook
« Reply #65 on: August 06, 2008, 10:16:53 PM »
a quick question.... what Progression are you using for Unarmed Damage?

2d10>4d8>6d8>8d8>12d8

? ? ?

 :D

dman11235

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Re: Monk's Handbook
« Reply #66 on: August 06, 2008, 10:31:33 PM »
I stated my unarmed damage progression in the handbook.  It's 16/22/28/36.  The other quite possible one is 16/24/32/48.  I prefer the first one since it's not exponential (as much).  The second one is at 64 next, then 96.  It gets ridiculous pretty fast after 24.

Quote
...be used for itterative attacks and Off hand attacks...

That seems to indicate to me that he wants to use an US as both on and off hand.

Quote
No its not. Normally you can use whatever weapons you want with TWF. That is the implied assumption unless the rules state otherwise. So if you want to prove otherwise, the burden of proof IS on you.

He was trying to tell me the burden of proof was on me for finding where it states that you can't use an US as both weapons in TWF (and since you have one US, burden of proof is on him for showing where it states you can use the same weapon as both on- and off-hand, which is an exception to the normal rule).  You can use an US as either on- or off-hand, but not both.  You obviously haven't fully read my statements.  You can, explicitly and without FAQ back-up, use an US as the off-hand in TWF.  Or the on-hand.  And you can combine it with FoB.  Because it doesn't restrict it.  What you can't do is use only unarmed strikes in this process.

Unless I've been misinterpreting your stance carnivore?

EDIT: Also, I'm going to try working on the possible spring attack monk fix that was brought to my attention last page.  With that one feat that lets you add 2xstr to damage with unarmed strikes.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2008, 10:34:01 PM by dman11235 »
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Monk's Handbook
« Reply #67 on: August 06, 2008, 10:40:02 PM »
I see what you're saying. Since a monk's US is obviously made up of multiple body parts, I don't see why you'd object so strongly to using FoB and TWF with IUS, though.
[spoiler]
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Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

carnivore

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Re: Monk's Handbook
« Reply #68 on: August 06, 2008, 10:54:52 PM »
I stated my unarmed damage progression in the handbook.  It's 16/22/28/36.  The other quite possible one is 16/24/32/48.  I prefer the first one since it's not exponential (as much).  The second one is at 64 next, then 96.  It gets ridiculous pretty fast after 24.
i dont see where you stated it........... are you are saying the Unarmed Damage Progression goes:


Medium = 2d10
Large = 4d8
Huge = ?
Gargantuan = ?
Colossal = ?

your numbers dont make sense... how did you arrive at them? what Book Lists the Progression like what you have there?

 :D






carnivore

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Re: Monk's Handbook
« Reply #69 on: August 06, 2008, 11:45:49 PM »
monk2/paladin17/bard1

Key feats: able learner (to keep up on perform and UMD), ascetic knight, devoted performer, initate of milee (sp).

You get the unarmed strike damage of a 19th level monk, smiting damage of a 20th level paladin, and the bardic music abilities of 18th level bard.

You also might want to consider the overwhemling attack monk variant from UA/SRD since it gets you power attack and improved bull rush, setting you up for shock trooper and divine might.
this is a Great Build ..... what was so hard to understand about it:

able learner ...... great skills
unarmed strike damage of a 19th level monk.... higher with monks belt or Superior unarmed Strike
bardic music abilities of 18th level bard.
smiting damage of a 20th level paladin
17th Lvl Paladin Abilities:
Spells:  3 @1st lvl, 3 @ 2nd lvl, 3 @ 3rd lvl, 3 @ 4th lvl
Turn undead!!!!!........ Divine Might
Divine grace
lay on hands
Aura of good
detect evil
Aura of courage
divine health
Smite evil 5/day .... more with feats or equipment
Remove disease 5/week
special mount

this build needs several Attributes.... but more than Makes up for it........ it can appear very Innocent... using NO Armor or Weapons... but it can Unload a lot of Pain.... i say it is an Excellent Build  ... good work  :clap

 :D

dman11235

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Re: Monk's Handbook
« Reply #70 on: August 07, 2008, 12:41:43 AM »
The progression from the DMG has 2d10:4d8:6d8:8d8:12d8.  After that I had to extrapolate it.  And I was following the pattern (present there and the entry above with DC) of +2/+2/+4/+4/+6/+6/+8 dice.  The other pattern is z/y (z+2)/zx2/yx2/(zx2)x2/(yx2)x2/((zx2)x2)x2.  Simlified to z/y/zx2/yx2/zx4/yx4/zx8
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carnivore

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Re: Monk's Handbook
« Reply #71 on: August 07, 2008, 03:09:40 AM »
The progression from the DMG has 2d10:4d8:6d8:8d8:12d8.  After that I had to extrapolate it.  And I was following the pattern (present there and the entry above with DC) of +2/+2/+4/+4/+6/+6/+8 dice.  The other pattern is z/y (z+2)/zx2/yx2/(zx2)x2/(yx2)x2/((zx2)x2)x2.  Simlified to z/y/zx2/yx2/zx4/yx4/zx8

the point is....you said "You can't deal damage as a size larger than colossal.  You can get other damage boosts, but colossal is the max for size increases."

Med sized Monk 20 Unarmed Damage=2d10
Large sized Monk 20 Unarmed Damage=4d8
Huge sized Monk 20 Unarmed Damage=6d8
Gargantuan sized Monk 20 Unarmed Damage=8d8
Colossal sized Monk 20 Unarmed Damage=12d8

so which are you going with.... that or your Progression ABOVE Colossal... which you said did not exist, but which is a natural progression fo the damage quantities even though not specficlly stated in the DMG

how do you explain your Numbers?

 :D

dman11235

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Re: Monk's Handbook
« Reply #72 on: August 07, 2008, 05:02:22 AM »
No...you can't get size increases beyond colossal.  You can increase the base damage still, as long as it's not from size.  Like the difference between a shortsword and a greatsword.  Increases like FotF aren't size increases, but increase the dice size.  The difference is the order of words.  INA increases your effective size, which also increases the dice size.  Dice size is uncapped.  But you can't grow larger than colossal (even if you're the size of a planet vs a mansion), so you can't get dice size boosts from that.  You can still increase your dice size.
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katans

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Re: Monk's Handbook
« Reply #73 on: August 07, 2008, 08:08:27 AM »
this build needs several Attributes.... but more than Makes up for it........ it can appear very Innocent... using NO Armor or Weapons... but it can Unload a lot of Pain.... i say it is an Excellent Build  ... good work  :clap

 :D

Yes, it's a good build, but I'm tired of seeing people pick one or two levels in monk and pretend it's a monk build. This, sir, is a paladin build with an efficient dip into monk, but not a monk build. Pretty much just like Swift hunter isn't a scout build or Daring Outlaw isn't a swashbuckler build.

carnivore

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Re: Monk's Handbook
« Reply #74 on: August 07, 2008, 12:34:39 PM »
Yes, it's a good build, but I'm tired of seeing people pick one or two levels in monk and pretend it's a monk build. This, sir, is a paladin build with an efficient dip into monk, but not a monk build. Pretty much just like Swift hunter isn't a scout build or Daring Outlaw isn't a swashbuckler build.
then this brings up the question:

What really is a Monk?

Quote from: WoTC
To most people, the monk is simply a fighting character whose whole body serves as a weapon. But a well-played monk also adds a touch of the exotic and the mysterious to a campaign. In addition, the monk is among the most versatile characters in the game and can fill a variety of roles in an adventuring party. The monk's wide range of abilities makes her an effective combatant against all sorts of foes. When you choose a monk, you get effective fighting ability plus an array of useful talents -- some of which are quite handy for moving around and avoiding damage.

to me a Monk is simple: an Un-ARMORED Ascetic Character who trains himself to rely on Skills and Natural Abilities rather than External sources for power and seeks to improve his body and mind rather than Pursue material Gain or Supernatural power thru Spells

there are examples of those who use Weapons to achive unity of Body and Mind, by means of Martial training: Zen Masters .... use Bows, some use Swords, with Various Katas, etc....


it is not so much , "how many Monk levels does a Build have" that makes it a Monk build in my opinion ..... its how is the character set to play..... i am working on a Build that has "ZERO" Monk levels, but really is a "Monk Build"... it does everything a Monk does.

but what do you think it takes to "Be a Monk"?

 :D





dman11235

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Re: Monk's Handbook
« Reply #75 on: August 07, 2008, 03:05:23 PM »
I did define "monk" at the beginning of this handbook, for the purposes of this handbook.  Perhaps you should read it katans?
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ninjarabbit

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Re: Monk's Handbook
« Reply #76 on: August 07, 2008, 09:37:27 PM »
Interesting, I looked at dman's sample build and neither of them had more than 2 levels of monk, I could easily argue that those aren't 'monk' builds either.

And just because my build can do paladin and bard things well doesn't mean it's any less of a monk build. In fact it's nice to be able to do multiple things in case Option A really isn't the best option.

carnivore

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Re: Monk's Handbook
« Reply #77 on: August 07, 2008, 10:09:16 PM »
I did define "monk" at the beginning of this handbook, for the purposes of this handbook.  Perhaps you should read it katans?
katans?  ??? what?

if you could just Quote yourself... it would be easier... since i have read everything you posted in the initial Posts... and i cannot find where you Define what a Monk is

you give a lot of opinions .... but where is the Support from the Books(RAW, as you prefer)... any Links to help define it.... at least i quoted WoTC... here, ill supply a Link

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20050310a

you need to spell out exactly you "think" makes a Monk Character

ninjarabbits character was great.... when playing it... he doesnt have to walk around in Full Plate... he can Simply be dressed in a Travelers Outfit
Quote from: SRD
Traveler’s Outfit: This set of clothes consists of boots, a wool skirt or breeches, a sturdy belt, a shirt (perhaps with a vest or jacket), and an ample cloak with a hood.
.... he might not even carry any Weapons(why would he need to?)... the fact that he can do Paladin stuff, in no way negates the fact that he is living a Simple semi-Ascetic life ...he is a Monk, just with Different special Abilities that a Regular PHB monk

 :D

dman11235

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Re: Monk's Handbook
« Reply #78 on: August 07, 2008, 10:35:42 PM »
I was talking to katans.  The poster above you.  And I can quote.

Quote
When I talk about monks, I am referring to both the class presented in the Player’s Handbook and the archetypal unarmed/unarmored combatant.

Hey, it's the very first sentence in the whole thing.  Complete sentence, that is.  Also, that's for the purposes of this handbook, which I made, so it follows that my definition is the only one that really matters.  And I gave it to avoid such confusion.

Also, I never said his build wasn't great.  He just didn't post nearly anything that I would require to post it here except for the class levels.  It needs to have everything listed that it uses.  And how it functions.  And what it's used for.  Not used for.  What it can't do.  All equipment needed to pull it off.

Also, my opinions are not on how the rules work, but only what I think is good/bad/fun/boring/etc.  Those are matters of opinion.  I use how the rules work (RAW) to make the characters and then use my judgement and opinion on how good they are.  How fun they are.  Not how they work.
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carnivore

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Re: Monk's Handbook
« Reply #79 on: August 07, 2008, 10:46:28 PM »
then dont say something is not a Monk Build, when it clearly is a Monk Build

 :D