Author Topic: Ask a Simple Question, Part 20: Return of the Dread Gazebo  (Read 187698 times)

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CantripN

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Re: Ask a Simple Question, Part 20: Return of the Dread Gazebo
« Reply #460 on: December 04, 2010, 09:36:45 PM »
You race isn't Ghost, though. You start play as something alive, and then die. You were born an Outsider, because of the feat. A Ghost of an Outsider is non-existent, but even if it were legal, it's Undead.

Yes,that is common sense.....
But rulewise I think that they are right......

Can you start play as simply a "Ghost"? No. You have to be something else, first. It's a Template, after all. Which means a level 1 feat is picked before you become one.
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Ask a Simple Question, Part 20: Return of the Dread Gazebo
« Reply #461 on: December 04, 2010, 09:38:42 PM »
You race isn't Ghost, though. You start play as something alive, and then die. You were born an Outsider, because of the feat. A Ghost of an Outsider is non-existent, but even if it were legal, it's Undead.

Yes,that is common sense.....
But rulewise I think that they are right......

Can you start play as simply a "Ghost"? No. You have to be something else, first. It's a Template, after all. Which means a level 1 feat is picked before you become one.
No, but you can start play as an elf ghost, or a human ghost, or a kobold ghost.  It's a template, after all, which means it's part of your race.

You can start play as a half-elf, half-human, or as a half-dragon, half-human.
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CantripN

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Re: Ask a Simple Question, Part 20: Return of the Dread Gazebo
« Reply #462 on: December 04, 2010, 09:40:30 PM »
You race isn't Ghost, though. You start play as something alive, and then die. You were born an Outsider, because of the feat. A Ghost of an Outsider is non-existent, but even if it were legal, it's Undead.

Yes,that is common sense.....
But rulewise I think that they are right......

Can you start play as simply a "Ghost"? No. You have to be something else, first. It's a Template, after all. Which means a level 1 feat is picked before you become one.
No, but you can start play as an elf ghost, or a human ghost, or a kobold ghost.  It's a template, after all, which means it's part of your race.

You can start play as a half-elf, half-human, or as a half-dragon, half-human.

For Inherited Templates, that's true. Not so much for stuff like Ghost/Lich.
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Ask a Simple Question, Part 20: Return of the Dread Gazebo
« Reply #463 on: December 04, 2010, 09:42:27 PM »
The difference is insubstantial from a rules perspective.  Acquired templates are defined as templates that "can be added to creatures any time."  Character creation certainly counts.

Fluff-wise, you came back from the dead powered by positive energy rather than negative.  And deathless are for suckers.

It's rather like putting Combat Expertise on a human fighter who rolled a 12 for intelligence and decided to be middle aged.  Or playing a dragonborn.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2010, 09:46:44 PM by The_Mad_Linguist »
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Genesis

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Re: Ask a Simple Question, Part 20: Return of the Dread Gazebo
« Reply #464 on: December 04, 2010, 09:59:08 PM »
Q:156 I'm making a generalist wizard for a high-danger campaign. We have extremely high stats. I was planning on taking Insightful Reflexes to use the synergy of my high INT to boost my survivability, but on reflection, I care more about my Fort save. Is there a way to use my high mental scores to boost that instead, preferably in feat form?

Sobolev

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Re: Ask a Simple Question, Part 20: Return of the Dread Gazebo
« Reply #465 on: December 04, 2010, 10:25:04 PM »
Q:156 I'm making a generalist wizard for a high-danger campaign. We have extremely high stats. I was planning on taking Insightful Reflexes to use the synergy of my high INT to boost my survivability, but on reflection, I care more about my Fort save. Is there a way to use my high mental scores to boost that instead, preferably in feat form?


A156: Boost your survivability by not being a generalist wizard.  I'll look in to your other question.
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Quote from: Negative Zero on November 04, 2009, 02:16:14 AM
In my humble opinion, CO is haberdashery. Some say we're mad, but we can all agree we're hatters. Yes, we have potential to make very sophisticated hats, very fancy hats, be they dark or light. But the truth is that the color of the hat does not come from the group of us - our community doesn't directly produce hats. We simply give average head circumferences, list current fashion trends, and point out some shiny, obscure baubles to add to the latest hat line.

AndyJames

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Re: Ask a Simple Question, Part 20: Return of the Dread Gazebo
« Reply #466 on: December 04, 2010, 10:33:49 PM »
A155: There's a table in Savage Species about which type takes over. Undead wins over Outsider. Plus, I don't think you qualify for it, anyway.
As a Star Elf, I do. Augmented subtype in srd says you would just be Outsider (Augmented Undead, Augmented Humanoid, Incorporeal).

Again, look at Savage Species. You can't make an Undead into an Outsider.
1) Latest printing applies.  That'd be the 3.5 monster manual.
2) Core trumps noncore.  That'd be the 3.5 monster manual
3) Specific overrides general.  That'd be the otherworldly feat
4) The type pyramid only applies to templates, not to feats.

A155: There's a table in Savage Species about which type takes over. Undead wins over Outsider. Plus, I don't think you qualify for it, anyway.
As a Star Elf, I do. Augmented subtype in srd says you would just be Outsider (Augmented Undead, Augmented Humanoid, Incorporeal).
No. You'd be Undead (augmented Outsider, Incorporeal).

However, once you take the feat, you can no longer be the target of the template as you have become Outsider (native). Since you have to take the feat at level 1, and Ghost is an acquired template that comes after you die, I would say that the feat has precedence.

It is an invalid combination.
Quote
Character creation steps (from the phb).

 
1)CHECK WITH YOUR DUNGEON MASTER
 
2)ROLL ABILITY SCORES
 
3)CHOOSE YOUR CLASS AND RACE
 
4)ASSIGN AND ADJUST ABILITY SCORES
 
5)REVIEW THE STARTING PACKAGE
 
6)RECORD RACIAL AND CLASS FEATURES

7)SELECT SKILLS
  
8)SELECT A FEAT  
So I select my race as ghost in step 3, and then later on, in step 8, I select my feat to be otherworldly.  Completely valid.  If you want to do it after your first class level you'll need a psiref or retraining or something, but totally doable.


In addition, if you have RHD, you can take regional feats at 3hd rather than at your first hd.


The main reason I like otherworldy on ghost is that your rejuvenation can no longer be overcome by anything, and you now don't have to worry about turning or whatever.  You also retain immunities to fort saves, ability damage, ability drain, and energy drain, and most of the nastiest anti-incorporeal stuff is targeted against undead.

No, TML. Your race is Star Elf. Ghost comes later, unless it is inherited, which implies you have it right from the start.

Maat_Mons

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Re: Ask a Simple Question, Part 20: Return of the Dread Gazebo
« Reply #467 on: December 04, 2010, 10:42:45 PM »
Q:156 I'm making a generalist wizard for a high-danger campaign. We have extremely high stats. I was planning on taking Insightful Reflexes to use the synergy of my high INT to boost my survivability, but on reflection, I care more about my Fort save. Is there a way to use my high mental scores to boost that instead, preferably in feat form?

X Stat to Y Bonus is a good place to look, but I don't see anything that does what you want. 

kevin_video

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Re: Ask a Simple Question, Part 20: Return of the Dread Gazebo
« Reply #468 on: December 04, 2010, 10:54:50 PM »
Q 150 What'd be a good feat (other than Able Learner and Font of Inspiration) to take at 1st level for a Factotum? I read the handbook, but it doesn't really say "take this at 1st" anywhere.


Darkstalker perhaps?  What's wrong with the default Font of Inspiration choice?
It's a web enhancement. They're not usually looked too well upon. I want to keep my options open just in case it's not allowed.
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Ask a Simple Question, Part 20: Return of the Dread Gazebo
« Reply #469 on: December 04, 2010, 11:02:29 PM »

No, TML. Your race is Star Elf. Ghost comes later, unless it is inherited, which implies you have it right from the start.
No, my race is ghost star elf.  It's exactly the same as starting out as a mephling, or a dragonborn raptoran, or a half-drow, or a magic-blooded aquatic half-elf.

Vampires are listed under the "monsters as races" table in the DMG.  Page 172.  Thus, a template is part of your race.  Thus, it is selected at step three.
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Sobolev

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Re: Ask a Simple Question, Part 20: Return of the Dread Gazebo
« Reply #470 on: December 04, 2010, 11:05:11 PM »
Q 150 What'd be a good feat (other than Able Learner and Font of Inspiration) to take at 1st level for a Factotum? I read the handbook, but it doesn't really say "take this at 1st" anywhere.


Darkstalker perhaps?  What's wrong with the default Font of Inspiration choice?
It's a web enhancement. They're not usually looked too well upon. I want to keep my options open just in case it's not allowed.

If Font isn't allowed, consider another class.
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Quote from: Negative Zero on November 04, 2009, 02:16:14 AM
In my humble opinion, CO is haberdashery. Some say we're mad, but we can all agree we're hatters. Yes, we have potential to make very sophisticated hats, very fancy hats, be they dark or light. But the truth is that the color of the hat does not come from the group of us - our community doesn't directly produce hats. We simply give average head circumferences, list current fashion trends, and point out some shiny, obscure baubles to add to the latest hat line.

AndyJames

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Re: Ask a Simple Question, Part 20: Return of the Dread Gazebo
« Reply #471 on: December 04, 2010, 11:17:29 PM »
No, my race is ghost star elf.  It's exactly the same as starting out as a mephling, or a dragonborn raptoran, or a half-drow, or a magic-blooded aquatic half-elf.
I don't view it that way. Your race is what you were born with. What happens later can change your type, but that did not happen at character creation. That comes later.

If you look at how ghosts were suposed to be created, it is suppose to happen after you die. Which means at the BEGINNING of level 1, you don't have the Ghost template. By the time you can get it (i.e., after character creation), you no longer qualify for it.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Ask a Simple Question, Part 20: Return of the Dread Gazebo
« Reply #472 on: December 04, 2010, 11:19:22 PM »
No, my race is ghost star elf.  It's exactly the same as starting out as a mephling, or a dragonborn raptoran, or a half-drow, or a magic-blooded aquatic half-elf.
I don't view it that way. Your race is what you were born with. What happens later can change your type, but that did not happen at character creation. That comes later.

If you look at how ghosts were suposed to be created, it is suppose to happen after you die. Which means at the BEGINNING of level 1, you don't have the Ghost template. By the time you can get it (i.e., after character creation), you no longer qualify for it.
Quote
"Ghost" is an acquired template usually gained upon an intelligent creature's death.
IE: not always

Again, vampires are listed under "monsters as races".  Same caveat would apply to them.

Or a venerable base int 10 elf fighter picking up Combat Expertise.  He'd have to wait 350 years before qualifying for that feat.  A human is guaranteed to have died from old age at that point.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2010, 11:22:57 PM by The_Mad_Linguist »
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kevin_video

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Re: Ask a Simple Question, Part 20: Return of the Dread Gazebo
« Reply #473 on: December 04, 2010, 11:22:18 PM »
Q 150 What'd be a good feat (other than Able Learner and Font of Inspiration) to take at 1st level for a Factotum? I read the handbook, but it doesn't really say "take this at 1st" anywhere.


Darkstalker perhaps?  What's wrong with the default Font of Inspiration choice?
It's a web enhancement. They're not usually looked too well upon. I want to keep my options open just in case it's not allowed.

If Font isn't allowed, consider another class.
It's that important? Hmm.
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bearsarebrown

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Re: Ask a Simple Question, Part 20: Return of the Dread Gazebo
« Reply #474 on: December 04, 2010, 11:30:41 PM »
I don't view it that way. Your race is what you were born with.
Seems you're confusing Race and race. One is a mechanical term and the other in an English word. TML is 100% supported by all RAW and judging from the Vampire RAI.

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Re: Ask a Simple Question, Part 20: Return of the Dread Gazebo
« Reply #475 on: December 04, 2010, 11:34:15 PM »
You might be confusing "race" with "base race" - the former is almost always the same thing as the latter, since few PCs use templates.
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Sobolev

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Re: Ask a Simple Question, Part 20: Return of the Dread Gazebo
« Reply #476 on: December 04, 2010, 11:34:25 PM »
Q 150 What'd be a good feat (other than Able Learner and Font of Inspiration) to take at 1st level for a Factotum? I read the handbook, but it doesn't really say "take this at 1st" anywhere.


Darkstalker perhaps?  What's wrong with the default Font of Inspiration choice?
It's a web enhancement. They're not usually looked too well upon. I want to keep my options open just in case it's not allowed.

If Font isn't allowed, consider another class.
It's that important? Hmm.

I think it is, others might disagree.
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Quote from: Negative Zero on November 04, 2009, 02:16:14 AM
In my humble opinion, CO is haberdashery. Some say we're mad, but we can all agree we're hatters. Yes, we have potential to make very sophisticated hats, very fancy hats, be they dark or light. But the truth is that the color of the hat does not come from the group of us - our community doesn't directly produce hats. We simply give average head circumferences, list current fashion trends, and point out some shiny, obscure baubles to add to the latest hat line.

AndyJames

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Re: Ask a Simple Question, Part 20: Return of the Dread Gazebo
« Reply #477 on: December 04, 2010, 11:54:40 PM »
You might be confusing "race" with "base race" - the former is almost always the same thing as the latter, since few PCs use templates.
Base race is certainly what I meant and certainly what should be taken into account at character creation. I am of the opinion that the writer of that article on character creation made the same mistake. Acquired templates should never be taken into account during character creation, only after it.

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Re: Ask a Simple Question, Part 20: Return of the Dread Gazebo
« Reply #478 on: December 05, 2010, 12:05:57 AM »
Q 150 What'd be a good feat (other than Able Learner and Font of Inspiration) to take at 1st level for a Factotum? I read the handbook, but it doesn't really say "take this at 1st" anywhere.


Darkstalker perhaps?  What's wrong with the default Font of Inspiration choice?
It's a web enhancement. They're not usually looked too well upon. I want to keep my options open just in case it's not allowed.

If Font isn't allowed, consider another class.
It's that important? Hmm.

I think it is, others might disagree.

It's not *that* important, but it's pretty close.  The big downside is that it pretty much kills the typical Factotum action economy shtick of taking an absurd number of standard actions in a turn.  Without Font of Inspiration, you might even just limit yourself to 3-5 levels of Factotum just to supplement/compliment another class's abilities.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Ask a Simple Question, Part 20: Return of the Dread Gazebo
« Reply #479 on: December 05, 2010, 12:10:55 AM »
You might be confusing "race" with "base race" - the former is almost always the same thing as the latter, since few PCs use templates.
Base race is certainly what I meant and certainly what should be taken into account at character creation. I am of the opinion that the writer of that article on character creation made the same mistake. Acquired templates should never be taken into account during character creation, only after it.
Well, argue with the core books, not with me.  I'm just reading the rules as they're written.
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