Author Topic: Is this even possible?  (Read 8036 times)

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AndyJames

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Is this even possible?
« on: November 20, 2010, 06:41:57 AM »
You are a party of 4 PCs. Each PC is level 2. You have 300gp each for equipment. Note that these equipment are from level 1, so they are not ideal equipment, and are mainly things like alchemist fires, acid flasks, etc.

Environment: Large underground vault (about 50ft wide and 80 ft long and 50ft tall) with a double door at one end and a 5ft tall platform on the other with a 5ft pool of some sort of unidentified seemingly boiling liquid in it. In the middle of the room is a 15ft radius round pool.

Your opponent: 1 Quasit with 3 Cleric levels. He can make himself bleed into the small pool to call forth a 3HD BSF abberation meatshield. He can do this only once. The Quasit starts in the small pool, taking a bath. He is armed with a +1 returning dagger.

Is it even possible to kill that Quasit ???

betrayor

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Re: Is this even possible?
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2010, 07:00:21 AM »
You are a party of 4 PCs. Each PC is level 2. You have 300gp each for equipment. Note that these equipment are from level 1, so they are not ideal equipment, and are mainly things like alchemist fires, acid flasks, etc.

Environment: Large underground vault (about 50ft wide and 80 ft long and 50ft tall) with a double door at one end and a 5ft tall platform on the other with a 5ft pool of some sort of unidentified seemingly boiling liquid in it. In the middle of the room is a 15ft radius round pool.

Your opponent: 1 Quasit with 3 Cleric levels. He can make himself bleed into the small pool to call forth a 3HD BSF abberation meatshield. He can do this only once. The Quasit starts in the small pool, taking a bath. He is armed with a +1 returning dagger.

Is it even possible to kill that Quasit ???

I say yes but depending on the class of the players and how optimized they are.....

Even then this is a challenging encounter but not impossible.....

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Is this even possible?
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2010, 07:11:42 AM »
Step 1: Make sure that at least one of your party members is dedicated enough to fight to death and beyond.
Step 2: Send them alone, and have them do so.

More seriously, seems possible, provided you win initiative and have your buffs up.  Protection from evil should make the meatshield a nonthreat.
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AndyJames

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Re: Is this even possible?
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2010, 07:55:46 AM »
The enemy meatshield is not a summoned creature. Protection from Evil won't help beyond the +2AC, right?

This is actually taken from a Pathfinder module. I don't know how optimised they expect their players to be, but it looked like we are talking Pun-Pun level optimisation here...

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Is this even possible?
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2010, 08:25:00 AM »
I assumed the "call forth" meant some sort of extraplanar stuff.
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betrayor

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Re: Is this even possible?
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2010, 08:30:35 AM »
An Orc Barbarian 2 with Reckless rage and power attack(assuming one flaw) buffed by the party wizard(bull of strength) and the party cleric(enalarge person) should have a str score of 30 when raging.....
It could do 3d6+19 damage more than enough to kill that quasit....
And that is not even that optimized....

AndyJames

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Re: Is this even possible?
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2010, 09:23:04 AM »
An Orc Barbarian 2 with Reckless rage and power attack(assuming one flaw) buffed by the party wizard(bull of strength) and the party cleric(enalarge person) should have a str score of 30 when raging.....
It could do 3d6+19 damage more than enough to kill that quasit....
And that is not even that optimized....
Umm... Are you aware of what a normal Quasit is capable of?

betrayor

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Re: Is this even possible?
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2010, 09:29:46 AM »
An Orc Barbarian 2 with Reckless rage and power attack(assuming one flaw) buffed by the party wizard(bull of strength) and the party cleric(enalarge person) should have a str score of 30 when raging.....
It could do 3d6+19 damage more than enough to kill that quasit....
And that is not even that optimized....
Umm... Are you aware of what a normal Quasit is capable of?
Yes I know,ok maybe my example would one hit kill it but an optimized party(maybe if it is optimized particuraly against a Quasit) should have no problem with it....
There many other option such as power word pain and other tactics...
I admit that It would be difficult even for optimized characters and Nigh-imposibble for regular characters....
I can see you point that this should not be a cr 2 challenge.....

AndyJames

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Re: Is this even possible?
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2010, 09:47:38 AM »
Yes I know,ok maybe my example would one hit kill it but an optimized party(maybe if it is optimized particuraly against a Quasit) should have no problem with it....
There many other option such as power word pain and other tactics...
I admit that It would be difficult even for optimized characters and Nigh-imposibble for regular characters....
I can see you point that this should not be a cr 2 challenge.....
We'd have to assume no flaws, as this is done with normal characters in mind (or so I assume with Pathfinder modules).

The Quasit's first action is likely to be casting Invisibility, which it gets at will. Zip up 50ft (perfect fly, too, btw), and the Barbarian's not going to hit it. One hit kill is useless when you can't reach it.

And if you DON'T 1 hit kill it, it would just go Invisible and hang around until it's Regen 2 bring it back up again before attacking from Invisibility. While it is doing that, your Rage is going bye-bye.

And then you bring the Cleric spells into play... *shudder*

betrayor

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Re: Is this even possible?
« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2010, 09:56:24 AM »
Yes I know,ok maybe my example would one hit kill it but an optimized party(maybe if it is optimized particuraly against a Quasit) should have no problem with it....
There many other option such as power word pain and other tactics...
I admit that It would be difficult even for optimized characters and Nigh-imposibble for regular characters....
I can see you point that this should not be a cr 2 challenge.....
We'd have to assume no flaws, as this is done with normal characters in mind (or so I assume with Pathfinder modules).

The Quasit's first action is likely to be casting Invisibility, which it gets at will. Zip up 50ft (perfect fly, too, btw), and the Barbarian's not going to hit it. One hit kill is useless when you can't reach it.

And if you DON'T 1 hit kill it, it would just go Invisible and hang around until it's Regen 2 bring it back up again before attacking from Invisibility. While it is doing that, your Rage is going bye-bye.

And then you bring the Cleric spells into play... *shudder*

Agreed it is very difficult the characters would have a chance only if they know what they are going to face and if they win initiative....
If the quasit wins iniative thing are very difficult because of the invisibility....
A warlock could solve this problem though....

Kajhera

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Re: Is this even possible?
« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2010, 11:09:19 AM »
Assuming the quasit wins initiative, only if the quasit wants to kill the characters. Unfortunately their splash weapons will be fairly useless...

It has access to 2nd-level cleric spells at best, and only a few of these prepared, not necessarily optimal - I don't know what the encounter tells you. Perhaps to work with his invisibility he has prepared Spiritual Weapon. This will last 3 rounds each casting and have no guarantee to hit. Survivable, if definitely a threat to the party, while they have a few rounds to think creatively. The quasit may decide to use its cause fear ability - a threat, but also a way to pinpoint it, and throw flour, glitter, daggers, or arrows at its square.

If the meatshield is defeated, always a possibility with meatshields, it will run out of ways to remain invisible and still distress the party. At this point, presumably, it decides to test out that returning dagger, with the gamble that the party's weapons will not pierce its damage reduction too greatly. At this point it goes invisible after each strike against it until it has recovered its hp; and at the least our heroes have a ton of time to plan. It may even get within 10' to try and hit more accurately.

If our heroes have cold iron arrows and multiple bows, or some way to make their ranged weapons good-aligned (bless weapon unfortunately is hard to access), they should be set. If they do not, but can each manage 9-10 physical damage or 4-5 non-elemental damage of force or some such with a ranged attack - or manage to pull off a successful color spray - they could manage.

But a CR 5 or so enemy is going to give a party trouble at the best of times.

AndyJames

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Re: Is this even possible?
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2010, 11:48:13 AM »
Betrayor - Warlock can get the See Invis invokation at level 2?


Kajhera - Normal glitter and Flour will only work until the next time it goes invisible, since everything stuck to it goes invisible with it. This type of tactic is only good against landbound invis using critter, because you see the tracks through the flour.

I think any party is likely to run out of daggers and arrows first before significantly hurting someting with DR 5 and Regen 2. If I were playing the Quasit, I am fairly confident of a TPK.

According to the guide, though, that is only a CR 3 encounter, not a CR 5, since Cleric is not considered a Quasit "thing" (I think Quasits are paired with Rogues).

Kajhera

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Re: Is this even possible?
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2010, 11:50:22 AM »
... A 3rd-level cleric is CR 3 on its own. The question should be what do the levels of cleric gain from the dip in quasit, and I would estimate that to be over 0.

AndyJames

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Re: Is this even possible?
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2010, 11:55:33 AM »
It is the other way around. You take the creature, and then add class levels to it. If the class levels strengthens a creature's strengths, it is 1 CR per level. If it doesn't it is only 0.5 CR per level.

Quasit are rogue types, so, cleric will be half CR.

Kajhera

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Re: Is this even possible?
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2010, 12:09:19 PM »
Just because that's the way it apparently is doesn't mean that's the way it should be, or should be judged for encounter strength. I mean, this quasit has as many Cleric levels as racial hit dice. If it were a halfling, would it be a half-CR cleric because halflings are rogue types? No, because that is not particularly sensible.

- Okay, wait, if it has only 12 wisdom I can see it being reduced in threat a - wait no, halflings natively have 10 wisdom.  ??? It can cast 2nd-level spells, so it's fine so far.

If you count it as a cleric first and a quasit second, still assuming anti-synergy, then it somehow goes up to CR 4.5. Does this make sense I ask you? For the point of the party being able to deal with it, don't think of it as a CR 3. Doesn't matter as much how the experience is rewarded.

AndyJames

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Re: Is this even possible?
« Reply #15 on: November 20, 2010, 12:12:39 PM »
Read the Monster Manual, please, with regards on how to calculate CR.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2010, 12:14:10 PM by AndyJames »

Kajhera

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Re: Is this even possible?
« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2010, 12:17:14 PM »
... I don't own it, but I just reread the bit in the SRD.

Okay, so any cleric levels after this would add the full +1 to its CR. That's a relief to know. At the moment it's sitting nicely at CR 3.5.

Kajhera

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Re: Is this even possible?
« Reply #17 on: November 20, 2010, 12:23:54 PM »
CR 3.5 seems reasonable. It's not as fearsome as something meant to take on 5th-level characters, but it is going to have abilities out of the league of 2nd-level characters to easily deal with. It's also somewhat more powerful than a level 3 halfling cleric; and that little half-CR will keep me satisfied that it is accounted for I suppose.

betrayor

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Re: Is this even possible?
« Reply #18 on: November 20, 2010, 03:04:26 PM »
Warlock does gain the see ivnisbility at level 1....

Look I see what you are saying and agree,this should not be a challenge rating 2 encounter,it should be at least be 3 or higher....

Runestar

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Re: Is this even possible?
« Reply #19 on: November 20, 2010, 08:40:08 PM »
The quasit isn't that physically capable in combat, so it seems its main tactic would be harrying the players with spells like hold person/summon monster while the meatshield pounds away.

Say I put a 14 into con, this gives it 6d8+12, or 39hp. Fairly reasonable for a cr4 foe (I round up to account for the elite array).

I see it more as when the meatshield falls, the quasit will eventually run out of resources and fly away. It seems quite hard to kill, between a decent AC, flight, invisibility, dr and fast healing, but overall, very little damage-dealing capability. The returning dagger seems irritating, even if it deals just 1d2 damage per hit, but unlikely to cause too much problems.
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