Author Topic: DM Pragmatics: The Big Mistakes  (Read 39628 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

RobbyPants

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 7139
Re: DM Pragmatics: The Big Mistakes
« Reply #60 on: December 02, 2010, 12:26:34 PM »
They were smart enough to attach a Will save to Sleep, at least.  Back in 2E, it was a no-save, 2d4 HD falls asleep spell.  It also didn't get the increased casting time until 3.5, IIRC.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Tenebrus

  • That monkey with the orange ass cheeks
  • ****
  • Posts: 255
    • Email
Re: DM Pragmatics: The Big Mistakes
« Reply #61 on: December 02, 2010, 01:12:25 PM »
"D&D 3.0: 60% Recycled Content."

Why I'm leery of 4.0.  Didn't I just spent 2.64 buttloads of money on books about this sort of thing within the last 10 years?

pixledriven

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 45
Re: DM Pragmatics: The Big Mistakes
« Reply #62 on: December 02, 2010, 04:24:39 PM »
1st Ed is what mucked up 3.5's writers. They all thought that evocation is da bomb because of 1st Ed. What they didn't realise was that an epic level 90 hp fighter back in 1st Ed now has 300+ hp. The blasting spells are still the same as they ever were from 1st Ed, though (with Fireball doing 1d6/caster level, capped at 10d6). In 1st Ed, blasting was viable. In 3.5, the critters laugh at you.

Not to mention that that big, bad, angry, party-slaughtering Red Dragon had ... 75HP. Even Magic Missile scared it a little bit.

Sometimes I think the devs did a lot of "Yeah, I wrote this, but I didn't actually read it..."  :banghead

Sinfire Titan

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 5697
  • You've got one round to give a rat's ass.
    • Email
Re: DM Pragmatics: The Big Mistakes
« Reply #63 on: December 06, 2010, 10:53:52 AM »
Not to mention that that big, bad, angry, party-slaughtering Red Dragon had ... 75HP. Even Magic Missile scared it a little bit.

Sometimes I think the devs did a lot of "Yeah, I wrote this, but I didn't actually read it..."  :banghead

Not to defend them, but do you want to balance proof-read the MM? They just came up with a formula and applied it to damn near everything and gave no thought to tactical usage of certain abilities (and seriously overvalued DD).


[spoiler][/spoiler]

Sunic_Flames

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4782
  • The Crusader of Logic.
Re: DM Pragmatics: The Big Mistakes
« Reply #64 on: December 06, 2010, 11:05:19 AM »
Not really. I mean, Ropers can't do much of anything. They do make sure they do a good job of making it clear that being a Sundertard is a Trap though, in any instance it comes up in so I can approve of that sort of thing. :D
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

LordBlades

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 524
    • Email
Re: DM Pragmatics: The Big Mistakes
« Reply #65 on: December 06, 2010, 11:06:45 AM »
Not to mention that that big, bad, angry, party-slaughtering Red Dragon had ... 75HP. Even Magic Missile scared it a little bit.

Sometimes I think the devs did a lot of "Yeah, I wrote this, but I didn't actually read it..."  :banghead

Not to defend them, but do you want to balance proof-read the MM? They just came up with a formula and applied it to damn near everything and gave no thought to tactical usage of certain abilities (and seriously overvalued DD).

WotC are pretty famous for overvaluing a lot of stuff: bonus to str(polymorph said hi), full bab(divine power also said hi), heavy armor prof etc.

AndyJames

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3112
  • Meep?
Re: DM Pragmatics: The Big Mistakes
« Reply #66 on: December 09, 2010, 03:56:28 AM »
Not to mention that that big, bad, angry, party-slaughtering Red Dragon had ... 75HP. Even Magic Missile scared it a little bit.

Sometimes I think the devs did a lot of "Yeah, I wrote this, but I didn't actually read it..."  :banghead


I remember playing the real old Gold Box DnD games. In one of them, the Dark Queen of Krynn, you get to go up to level 40. You were clearing entire SCREENS of dragons with Delayed Blast Fireballs. It was hilarious. The draconians and renegade mages were far more dangerous than any dragon, and the RMs only had 37hp on the hardest level (EDIT: or was it 45? I forgot...).
« Last Edit: December 09, 2010, 04:10:58 AM by AndyJames »

Sunic_Flames

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4782
  • The Crusader of Logic.
Re: DM Pragmatics: The Big Mistakes
« Reply #67 on: December 09, 2010, 09:58:53 AM »
Not to mention that that big, bad, angry, party-slaughtering Red Dragon had ... 75HP. Even Magic Missile scared it a little bit.

Sometimes I think the devs did a lot of "Yeah, I wrote this, but I didn't actually read it..."  :banghead

Not to defend them, but do you want to balance proof-read the MM? They just came up with a formula and applied it to damn near everything and gave no thought to tactical usage of certain abilities (and seriously overvalued DD).

WotC are pretty famous for overvaluing a lot of stuff: bonus to str(polymorph said hi), full bab(divine power also said hi), heavy armor prof etc.

+1. Anything that was overvalued is going to come out sucking. Anything undervalued... Save or loses say hi.
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

braininthejar

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 152
Re: DM Pragmatics: The Big Mistakes
« Reply #68 on: December 15, 2010, 07:06:03 PM »
coming back to the topic: giving "detective" adventures to players who suck at them.

Such a mission can be a lot of fun for smart players but soem simply aren't cut for that type of adventure. This leads to either

- a failed investigation  - which often means someone suffers for the player's failure. Especially depressing if the task was to clear a wrongly accused person.

- a very easy investigation - which leaves a bad aftertaste and breaks the willing suspension of disbelief (as it makes the npc's look blind or stupid for missing obvious clues )

- a deus ex machina npc intervention solving the case - which leaves the players with a sense of failure and/or the feeling of no control over the story.

A succession of such missions were enough to break one of the parties I played in ( a werewolf pack in WoD. The characters blaming each other turned into an actual conflict between players and the group fell apart. World of Darkness is one of the worlds where this mistake is the most destructive as it is designed to be a bit depressing even at the best of times. )

InnaBinder

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1610
  • OnnaTable
    • Okay - - Your Turn: Monte Cook's Message Board
Re: DM Pragmatics: The Big Mistakes
« Reply #69 on: December 15, 2010, 07:54:22 PM »
coming back to the topic: giving "detective" adventures to players who suck at them.

Such a mission can be a lot of fun for smart players but soem simply aren't cut for that type of adventure. This leads to either

- a failed investigation  - which often means someone suffers for the player's failure. Especially depressing if the task was to clear a wrongly accused person.

- a very easy investigation - which leaves a bad aftertaste and breaks the willing suspension of disbelief (as it makes the npc's look blind or stupid for missing obvious clues )

- a deus ex machina npc intervention solving the case - which leaves the players with a sense of failure and/or the feeling of no control over the story.

A succession of such missions were enough to break one of the parties I played in ( a werewolf pack in WoD. The characters blaming each other turned into an actual conflict between players and the group fell apart. World of Darkness is one of the worlds where this mistake is the most destructive as it is designed to be a bit depressing even at the best of times. )
Don't have tons of experience with the WoD system (ask me about my 3 minutes of playing Vampire sometime for lulz), but lots of systems just don't do well with detective adventures.  Too often the way the rules themselves work makes detective adventures boil down to a combination of 'guess what the GM is thinking' combined with 'follow the rails', just to get the detective aspect to function.
Winning an argument on the internet is like winning in the Special Olympics.  You won, but you're still retarded.

I made a Handbook!?

braininthejar

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 152
Re: DM Pragmatics: The Big Mistakes
« Reply #70 on: December 15, 2010, 08:17:24 PM »
Well, most parties in WoD have access to some form of scrying. (in Vampire, that would be the team member with Auspex power.) If the guilty party is a mortal, its usually a walk in the park to find out what's happened. There the problem is finding evidence without letting mortals know you have supernatural sources.

If the culprit is supernatural, he would have taken some steps to foil your attempts to use powers, so you will suffer the frustration of having to do it the old way despite all your magic.

In Werewolf The Apocalypse, there is a gift of detecting lies (which can be tricked by gifts available to 'rogue' class) and the ability to speak to spirits - there is nearly always some spirit witness but finding one that will be useful is another matter: elementals are usually unresponsive, plants strong enough to be sentient are usually trees and so rarely pay attention to "fast moving" things like people, animals don't understand many concepts and have a short attention span while Weaver spirits living near machines often give "mathematician's answers" and that is when they can say more than "yes" and "no".

AndyJames

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3112
  • Meep?
Re: DM Pragmatics: The Big Mistakes
« Reply #71 on: December 17, 2010, 04:46:56 AM »
coming back to the topic: giving "detective" adventures to players who suck at them.

Such a mission can be a lot of fun for smart players but soem simply aren't cut for that type of adventure. This leads to either

- a failed investigation  - which often means someone suffers for the player's failure. Especially depressing if the task was to clear a wrongly accused person.

- a very easy investigation - which leaves a bad aftertaste and breaks the willing suspension of disbelief (as it makes the npc's look blind or stupid for missing obvious clues )

- a deus ex machina npc intervention solving the case - which leaves the players with a sense of failure and/or the feeling of no control over the story.

A succession of such missions were enough to break one of the parties I played in ( a werewolf pack in WoD. The characters blaming each other turned into an actual conflict between players and the group fell apart. World of Darkness is one of the worlds where this mistake is the most destructive as it is designed to be a bit depressing even at the best of times. )
Been there, done that, got the T-shirt. I fell asleep throughout most of it. The setup: We were caught by some powerful organisation that wanted to experiment on us (some of us were mages, some wolves, some vamps). We were to find a way out of the place.

It turned out that the only person who could have solved the riddle of getting out of the place is the crazy DMPC that we found, whom only my character could heal because I was the only one with 3 points in Mind magic. As it was my first game of WoD ever (as a Mage, no less), that would have been the last thing to occur to me. And the other two experienced players refused to break "character" to tell me what my character is actually capable of.

And people to this day still ask me what I have against the Storyteller system. I mean, other than the fact that the more power you have in magic, the more likely you are to botch things, well, I guess nothing, right?

Littha

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2155
    • Email
Re: DM Pragmatics: The Big Mistakes
« Reply #72 on: December 17, 2010, 05:30:38 AM »
I had one DM make us roll up characters before telling us that the whole world was covered with dead magic...

I was playing a Sorcerer...

braininthejar

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 152
Re: DM Pragmatics: The Big Mistakes
« Reply #73 on: December 17, 2010, 06:44:13 AM »
Quote
And people to this day still ask me what I have against the Storyteller system. I mean, other than the fact that the more power you have in magic, the more likely you are to botch things, well, I guess nothing, right?

As far as I know, a botch only occurs if you have nosuccesses and at leats one 1. "more 1's than successes" indicates an ordinary failure. Also, "more 1s mean more serious botch" is a popular house rule but not a textbook one.

McPoyo

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3783
    • Email
Re: DM Pragmatics: The Big Mistakes
« Reply #74 on: December 17, 2010, 10:35:29 AM »
More 1s than successes is a botch, not enough successes means a normal failure.
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

veekie

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 9034
  • WARNING: Homing Miko
Re: DM Pragmatics: The Big Mistakes
« Reply #75 on: December 17, 2010, 11:15:45 AM »
Thats probably OWoD, NWoD, you can only botch if penalties exceed your dice pool and you fail on your chance die.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

McPoyo

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3783
    • Email
Re: DM Pragmatics: The Big Mistakes
« Reply #76 on: December 17, 2010, 11:34:22 AM »
Yeah, it's oWoD. Mage never made the transition, though, did it?
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

veekie

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 9034
  • WARNING: Homing Miko
Re: DM Pragmatics: The Big Mistakes
« Reply #77 on: December 17, 2010, 01:52:21 PM »
It did.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

dither

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1413
  • Breaking the ninth wall
Re: DM Pragmatics: The Big Mistakes
« Reply #78 on: December 17, 2010, 04:43:50 PM »
 :backtotopic

Never kill a character when their player is absent.

That is all.
"Stuck between a rogue and a bard place."

vanity
Read my webcomic!
Dither's Amazing Changing Avatars

[spoiler]
Quote from: Shadowhunter
Quote from: Flay Crimsonwind
"Vegeta! What does the scouter say about Dither's power level?"
It's over nine thousand!

Quote from: Bauglir
Quote from: Anklebite
Quote from: dither
Well blow me down! :P
A SECTION OF THE CAVERN HAS COLLAPSED!
dither, Miner, has died after colliding with an obstacle!
[/spoiler]

RobbyPants

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 7139
Re: DM Pragmatics: The Big Mistakes
« Reply #79 on: December 17, 2010, 10:18:56 PM »
:backtotopic

Never kill a character when their player is absent.

That is all.
I did that once.  It didn't go over well.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]