Tier System for Classes

[ninjarabbit]

Besides stinking could is a horrible choice for a sorcerer. Summon Monster III can be used to summon a dretch who can use stinking cloud as a SLA and then afterwards go into combat with 3 attacks/round.

[RobbyPants]

Besides stinking could is a horrible choice for a sorcerer. Summon Monster III can be used to summon a dretch who can use stinking cloud as a SLA and then afterwards go into combat with 3 attacks/round.

But won't the DC for the Dretch's Stinking Cloud only be 13?  I agree that the versatility of SMIII is pretty nice, but if you really want Stinking Cloud, I don't know that I consider SMIII a good replacement for that reason alone.  Is there any easy way to boost the DC?

[Braithwaite]

At levels 1-3, the sorcerer wins hands down.

One¹ word: Pain.



¹Power Actually, I just wanted to do that footnote thing.  Carry on.

Honestly, levels 1-3 are so dicy that they aren't of real importance.  Not to say that power word: pain isn't awesome, but simply that it's a somewhat obscure (RotD or something) spell that kills things no save for the three most lethal levels of the game.  It just helps you be slightly more effective (color spray is still pretty win) at the most lethal levels in the game.

So, yeah.  Sorcerer wins at levels 1-3, but this isn't a big deal at all because those levels don't really care what class you are in anyways.

I think level 1-3 are one of the Beguiler's strengths over a sorcerer.

PW Pain is a great spell. But it is only a factor level 1-2, because Beguiler can also choose it via advanced learning at level 3 if he wants it.

Levels 1 and 2, sure the sorcerer can take out most single enemies with PW pain. But he better hope he rolls really well, because they can kill him in one crit. At those levels, 2-3 hit points and the ability to wear armor really makes a difference. And when the sorcerer only has 2 spells known, the beguiler's spell list (Save or dies, utility spells, retreat spells, crowd control) really looks a lot better. Finally, these are levels where the casters can't automatically outdo the skillmonkey, having max ranks in Tumble, Hide, Move Silently, Spot, and Listen (along with Concentration and bluff, which they both have) is actually worth something in a low level game.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Your beguiler is going to be spending far more points on wis (a sorcerer has no need for a 14 wisdom), so the sorcerer's higher con is going to eliminate the average 1 or 2 HP/level difference.

PWP doesn't scale well out of the low levels - while the sorcerer can switch it out for something slightly useful later on, the beguiler's stuck with it for life.

[Korwin]

...the beguiler's stuck with it for life.

Nitpicking: no he is not.
Beguiler is in the same book as retraining, or not? (And then there's Psionics...)

[Braithwaite]

Maybe.

So we switch con and wisdom, so we have close to the same Hp.

You cast mage armor, which might or might not make up for not having a chain shirt, depending on whether or not all the encounters of the day happen in a 1-2 hour stretch.

But your hit points can all go away in the first surprise round, maybe before you even get your Mage Armor up (depending on whether you are expecting a fight), which the beguiler ignores completely after a decent listen or spot roll because he has 6 points higher than you (because sorcerer has no need for a 14 wisdom).

Or they can all go away after you are trapped against a wall by an enemy because at this level you don't have your auto-escape powers yet, while the beguiler happily tumbles away.

Power word pain takes an average of 3-4 rounds to incapacitate 1 CR 1 lizard man, who can drop you with a single lucky roll. Color spray probably dropped him in a single round given an average save, and maybe took out one or two of his buddies with him. If it fails, the beguiler can cast it again the following round, because he has more spells than you, because you burned a Mage Armor before combat just to reach equality with the armor wearing beguiler.

And if your Mage Armor/PWP Sorcerer is attacked by something mind immune, like some skeletons or zombies, the Beguiler, with his much vaunted weakness to mind immune, can run away with Expeditious Retreat, or escape unseen behind an Obscuring Mist, or wall them off behind a Silent Image of a wall that they can't disbelieve because they are mindless.

[The Lurker]

One very important thing: lurker, you shouldnt be the one making the sorcerer as you are trying to show that the beguiler wins. Let someone else do it...

Well, SerO made an alternative sorcerer.  It just happened to be worse in all except two ways.  Right now, the only reason I'm the one making the sorcerer is because it appears that nobody else that actually knows how to play optimal sorcerers is posting in this thread.

Seriously, I took the "Optimized sorcerer spell progression" thread for spells known and gave an "I Win (Right now, not in four levels when I get some short duration buffs we care about)" PrC.

If anything, I've overoptimized the sorcerer (considering I spent at least double the time making it).

[The Lurker]

Beguiler:
Feats:
1) Improved initiative
3) Arcane Disciple(death)

I'm curious what I'm missing:

Arcane Disciple requires 4 ranks of Knowledge (Religion) which is a cross-class skill for the beguiler.  How is he getting more than 3 ranks at 3rd level?

*looks at beguiler skill list*

Well, that's silly.  Duskblades get knowledge religion, but beguilers don't?  I guess we'll just drop off the arcane disciple at three.

We lose out on animate dead and deathward.  Does that change my comparisons significantly?  Yeah, I seriously forgot that beguilers didn't get Knowledge(any).

[The Lurker]

One very important thing: lurker, you shouldnt be the one making the sorcerer as you are trying to show that the beguiler wins. Let someone else do it...

I put one forth, the only thing they found wrong with it was it cast Feeblemind. My intent was, wait let me quote here.

See. Isn't that cute how the example Sorcerer choose as his one supper leet best in the universe 5th level spell a spell on the Beguiler list?
Isn't it cute to hear SorO brag about how his level 10 Sorcerer throws down leet Feebleminds to end encounters as proof of how awesome Sorcerers are?

*points to*

Extend/Persist can be done without Incantratix using Residual Magic and Cantrips but I just like the idea of adding save boosters to my example as a kick in the face to the fatespinner so I wanted the bonus feat slots and to do without Residual Magic. The feat selection sets up Spellsurge for double casting per round (and shapechange for 4 per round even later on) and the DC boosters mean it's better at save of suck/dies than the Beguiler build dependent on mind affecting abilities without the crummy once per day stuff.

So my posted build is better at save or dies, and has the versatility of being able to target the fort save instead of just will but got laughed out in an attempt to ignore it.

Actually, it wasn't even playing the save or die game.  At the level we were comparing it, the sorcerer quite literally knew zero save or dies.

Back to what I was mentioning in my last post. Most of the Beguiler spell list is redundant. Take a look at the following.
1-color spray, hypnotism, sleep, whelm.
2-blinding color surge, daze monster, glitter dust, hypnotic pattern, stay the hand, touch of idiocy, vertigo, whelming burst.
3-deep slumber, halt, hesitate, hold person, slow, suggestion, vertigo field.
4-charm monster, confusion, crushing despair, mass whelm, phantom battle, rainbow pattern.
5-dominate person, feeblemind, friend to foe, hold monster, incite riot, mind fog.
6-mass suggestion, overwhelm, repulsion.
7-mass hold person.
8-demand, scintillating pattern.
9-dominate monster, mass hold monster.
What do they have in common? They are all save or suck/die vs will spells.
Versatility? Hardly, you get to pick what kind of effect happens when the target fails a will save, that's not the kid of versatility I care about. Who cares about debuffing different abilities, just go for death or domination and skip the rest. Anyone that can apply Heighten Spell on the fly can simply learn/prepare a target and area save or die effect and completely replicate or do better all of those spells at once.

Well, there's the fact that most of those are better upgrades than just heightening (for example, mass charm monster vs charm monster vs charm person).

When you homebrew a spellcasting class, you want to have at least one offensive spell per level.  Because if you don't, you're forcing people to use non-level appropriate effects and burn a feat (heighten spell) to stay on the RNG.

So, yeah.  Less than half of the beguiler list is "I cast a level appropriate combat spell."  Since it knows all of it's spells, that's actually a good thing.

As for will vs fort, most creatures have higher fort saves than will saves.  Mindblank/magic circle is an acceptable argument, but I've already conceded that once in a while a beguiler has to use BC or dispel or silent image.  And it's actually pretty ok at those things.

Next, blur/displacement, (greater) invisibility, (greater) mirror image. None of those effects stack. If your blurry your clones are not, if your invisible being blurry isn't useful. Being invisible and having one clone pretend to be use is handy, though thats what the image spells, mislead, and arcane fusion are for. The only benefit knowing all of them is that you'll have some sort of miss chance against any foe missing True Sight if you correctly choose to cast the right one.

Considering that the sorcerer's *only* defensive spell was wings of flurry, I'd consider it about even.

Another chunk of spells is simply the level up versions of lower level ones, like screen>nondetection>undetectable alignment, greater dispel>dispel, zone of silence>silence, ethereal jaunt>swift etherealness, silent/minor/major image, sphere/greater/mass invisibility, veil>disguise self, project image>mislead, and so on. While it can be useful to know multiple levels of virtually the same spell, it's not that huge of an advantage over someone that has the better one of each series.

And?  These are all things that your sorcerer *can't do*.

Power Word Spells to the Beguiler are high level spells cast to kill weak CR 10ish foes as the Beguiler has no damage dealing spell. Well they have whelm. But that only works on a failed will save, so why not just go for a real save or die effect instead?

Don't kid yourself.  Beguilers cast time stop (to drop down solid fogs and similar) and cast mass hold monster with their ninth level slots.  Well, those and foresight and etherealness.  And whatever they get with arcane disciple.

Well, you get the picture/

I don't think in any way a Beguiler is versatile. It has even less types of spells known than a Sorcerer when it comes down to it. And unlike even a Favored Soul, a Beguiler's offense is solely based on save or die spells that always target will. They can't even target someone's fort save, or deal damage, or buff the party outside of haste or invisibility. In combat the only thing you'll ever see a Beguiler is cast one of two party buffs, a self buff for a miss chance, a save or die vs will effect, and one of like 8 other spells(dispel, their warrior field thing, time stop, solid fog, umm... more save or dies). Out of combat, invisibility is great for the people lacking hide or daylight raids, so is every version of scry (expect scry it's self of course) for locating stuff you may have missed, the image spells always rock, glibness/charm person are handy for NPC interaction as well. I don't see how their out of combat spell list is versatile compared to a Sorcerer. Bluff+Cha is almost as good as glibness by the 10th level (+20) and most people learn greater invisibility and at least one image spell. As for being able to locate stuff, well you can't do absolutely everything as just a tier 2 class.

This is kind of why I'm doing the direct comparisons.  Because *in play* beguilers are better.

I think it's flat out required for a Beguiler to take Arcane Disciple multiple times to be useful just as a Druid must take Natural Spell or something and I've heard the beguiler spell list gets kinda meh after they get fifth level spells as well. So 9th level on they keep falling behind everything else as the levels go on.

1) Beguilers and sorcerers get 5th level spells at level 10, not nine.  This means they don't get 6th level spells (thus, the beguiler falling behind) until level 12.
2) You haven't proven that beguilers fall behind at 12th level.  Perhaps a comparison?
3) You're right.  The base beguiler list isn't "I'm better than a sorcerer" after level 5 spells.  I'd love to do a side by side comparison at level 12 though.  I honestly haven't evaluated higher levels because I personally would rather play a sorcerer if we're starting that high (mostly personal preference; I think stuff like baleful polymorph is more fun than charm monster).

[The Lurker]

Your beguiler is going to be spending far more points on wis (a sorcerer has no need for a 14 wisdom), so the sorcerer's higher con is going to eliminate the average 1 or 2 HP/level difference.

Only by two points at max (as shown by my direct comparison).  That said, I've never argued that the beguiler has significantly more hit points than a sorcerer.  They both fall into the "I hope I don't get full attacked without greater mirror image up" territory.

[SorO_Lost]

So, yeah.  Less than half of the beguiler list is "I cast a level appropriate combat save or die spell."  Since it knows all of it's spells, that's actually a good thing.

Built in spell swapping and retraining means a Sorcerer will always have a level appropriate save or die spell. And again, you don't need 32+ save or die spells when two good ones will do but you refuse to address that point.

Considering that the sorcerer's *only* defensive spell was wings of flurry, I'd consider it about even.

So what happens when someone who can do a better spell list than me comes along or adds blur to the runestaff? Your defense towards the redundancy is to pick at a specific sorcerer spell list posted, which as it levels up it will cover those spells later on.

Again, you ignore the point and step around it to argue something else.

And?  These are all things that your sorcerer *can't do*.

But the summoned monsters probably can, also the spell list I posted is the entire Beguiler spell list and you're compairing it to a single 10th level sorcerer spell list. If my sorcerer could replicate 8th/9th level spells at the 10th level it would undoubtedly be a Kobold.

Take some meds and stay focused here.

Don't kid yourself.  Beguilers cast time stop (to drop down solid fogs and similar) and cast mass hold monster with their ninth level slots.  Well, those and foresight and etherealness.  And whatever they get with arcane disciple.

Me: A Beguiler cannot lower his foe's HP for his power word spells so only creatures with already low HP can be affected by them. Which means using them would mean your burning high level spell slots for creatures half your CR.
Lurker: They can cast time stop!
Me: I was talking about the redundancy of having the power word spells when you cannot affect HP.
Lurker: I cast foresight!
Me: So yeah... Good post.

Does Caboose visit you in your world?

1) Beguilers and sorcerers get 5th level spells at level 10, not nine.  This means they don't get 6th level spells (thus, the beguiler falling behind) until level 12.
2) You haven't proven that beguilers fall behind at 12th level.  Perhaps a comparison?
3) You're right.  The base beguiler list isn't "I'm better than a sorcerer" after level 5 spells.  I'd love to do a side by side comparison at level 12 though.  I honestly haven't evaluated higher levels because I personally would rather play a sorcerer if we're starting that high (mostly personal preference; I think stuff like baleful polymorph is more fun than charm monster).

2) You're wrong, prove at the 12th level the beguiler falls behind.
3) Wait, I see what you did there. Ok, I'm with you on the sorcerer is better, but you should prove it to me or it don't count.

Nah, I don't feel like it. when your lackey posts you can defend your stance on the sorcerer is better at that point.

[The Lurker]

So, yeah.  Less than half of the beguiler list is "I cast a level appropriate combat save or die spell."  Since it knows all of it's spells, that's actually a good thing.

Built in spell swapping and retraining means a Sorcerer will always have a level appropriate save or die spell. And again, you don't need 32+ save or die spells when two good ones will do but you refuse to address that point.

Do I need to quote you again?  Your "better" sorcerer did not know a save or die.

You either have it, or you don't.  I'm not saying that sorcerers suck.  Like, at all.  I'm saying that your sorcerer was built so shittily that it's not even funny and you should just take a look at my example sorcerer for how a competent sorcerer is built.

Considering that the sorcerer's *only* defensive spell was wings of flurry, I'd consider it about even.

So what happens when someone who can do a better spell list than me comes along or adds blur to the runestaff? Your defense towards the redundancy is to pick at a specific sorcerer spell list posted, which as it levels up it will cover those spells later on.

"Later on" doesn't matter.  At all.  What matters, is can a level 10 sorcerer contribute to combat the same way a level 10 beguiler can.  In my example, the sorcerer had a slight edge.

So, if anything you're arguing my point: Sorcerers take a little skill to build (and you clearly suck at making them).

And yes, if either the beguiler or sorcerer comes across a rune staff, they can both use it.  The beguiler just doesn't care if the spells were initially on his class list or not via UMD.  I've already addressed this.  Runestaffs are equally nice for both classes.

Again, you ignore the point and step around it to argue something else.

Wrong.  I'm arguing the same thing that I've been arguing since I started this discussion.  Sorcerers are on par with beguilers.  Maybe a little worse, maybe a little better.  Depends on the level and spell list in question.

And?  These are all things that your sorcerer *can't do*.

But the summoned monsters probably can, also the spell list I posted is the entire Beguiler spell list and you're compairing it to a single 10th level sorcerer spell list. If my sorcerer could replicate 8th/9th level spells at the 10th level it would undoubtedly be a Kobold.

1) Your example sorcerer couldn't even summon monsters.  At all.
2) Yeah, your sorcerer couldn't do any of the ones the beguiler could do at level 10 either.  I don't care.  Show me a sorcerer that at any point picks up those spells as spells known, and I'll care.

Take some meds and stay focused here.

I took the last of my antibiotics yesterday.  I'm in good health.  Thanks for your concern.

Don't kid yourself.  Beguilers cast time stop (to drop down solid fogs and similar) and cast mass hold monster with their ninth level slots.  Well, those and foresight and etherealness.  And whatever they get with arcane disciple.

Me: A Beguiler cannot lower his foe's HP for his power word spells so only creatures with already low HP can be affected by them. Which means using them would mean your burning high level spell slots for creatures half your CR.
Lurker: They can cast time stop!
Me: I was talking about the redundancy of having the power word spells when you cannot affect HP.
Lurker: I cast foresight!
Me: So yeah... Good post.

Does Caboose visit you in your world?

Find one quote of me ever saying a beguiler would cast Power Word: Kill.

I'll wait.  I haven't ever stated a beguiler would cast PWK because it is in fact a pretty shitty spell.  Learn to address points I actually made and not ones you think I made.

1) Beguilers and sorcerers get 5th level spells at level 10, not nine.  This means they don't get 6th level spells (thus, the beguiler falling behind) until level 12.
2) You haven't proven that beguilers fall behind at 12th level.  Perhaps a comparison?
3) You're right.  The base beguiler list isn't "I'm better than a sorcerer" after level 5 spells.  I'd love to do a side by side comparison at level 12 though.  I honestly haven't evaluated higher levels because I personally would rather play a sorcerer if we're starting that high (mostly personal preference; I think stuff like baleful polymorph is more fun than charm monster).

2) You're wrong, prove at the 12th level the beguiler falls behind.

I assume you meant keep up here?  Because I'm totally willing to do a side by side comparison (y'know, adding to the sampling I'm building because smart people gather data before they make a conclusion).

But yeah, I'm totally willing to do a comparison to show how versatile they are *in play*.  Are you?

3) Wait, I see what you did there. Ok, I'm with you on the sorcerer is better, but you should prove it to me or it don't count.

Nah, I don't feel like it. when your lackey posts you can defend your stance on the sorcerer is better at that point.

Weak.  Would you like to do the comparison, or not?  I'd be willing to bet that the beguiler still plays pretty close to the sorcerer at level 13.  My actual guess as to where the sorcerer is notably stronger is level 14 (because seventh level spells are fucking awesome).

But yeah, would you like to actually use data?  Or do you just want to straw man about things I've never said?  Because I'm totally willing to have an intellectually honest discussion.  Are you?

[JaronK]

Basic Sorcerer/Beguiler comparison:

Spells Known:  Beguiler has more of them, but many are redundant, and there are massive gaps (long term utility spells, non will based save or sucks, teleportation, etc).  Also, they rarely have the best spells of any given level (though Colorspray and Glitterdust mean they've got very solid lower level combat options).  Sorcerer has fewer spells known, but they can all be the most powerful spells that the campaign allows, and there are very few gaps in what's available (though a given Sorcerer may have trouble covering everything... which may not matter, as the Sorc takes what the rest of the party doesn't offer).

Adding spells known:  Both can use Runestaffs, though Beguilers need UMD at reasonably high levels (DC 19+2*spell level to pretend to be a Wizard of appropriate level, can't take 10) to make use of them and must purchase them while the Sorcerer can make their own (and then retrain or alter spells afterwords).  Note that the Sorcerer's access to Teleportation makes purchasing Runestaffs far easier mid campaign.  Both can use Arcane Disciple, but Beguilers get far better use out of it since it would otherwise use up a Sorcerer's spells known, but Arcane Disciple does require a bunch of Wisdom and some cross class ranks for both.  Sorcerers can use Mage of the Arcane Order to get access to every Wizard/Sorcerer spell, though it costs extra slots and time to do so, making it primarily suitable for utility and downtime spells only.  Both can use Shadowcraft Mage.

Skills:  Beguiler obviously wins here by a wide margin, though this only matters before PrCing out (of course, only a Beguiler has a reason not to PrC out).

Class features:  Familiars are cute but a Beguiler could take Obtain Familiar and then use their skills with a familiar, and the other Beguiler class features are obviously far superior to the Sorcerer's lack thereof.  One note is that Sorcerers can drop their familiar for faster metamagicking, which Beguilers don't have access to, and of course class features past level 5 or so don't matter much since PrCs become a bigger factor.

Racial:  Both can get a lot of millage from gnomes.  Sorcerers get a huge boost from Kobolds.

PrCs:  Beguilers can get into Mindbender far more easily.  Both can rock out with Shadowcraft Mage in obscene ways.  Sorcerers have better access to the rest of the power PrCs, though, and make far better use of Tainted Sorcerer, Anima Mage, and Incantrix, mostly by having spells that can better make use of free metamagics like Persistant Spell.

So, the first part comes down to a question of what's more powerful... having a bigger number of potent abilities, or a smaller number of extremely potent abilities with a wider variety in what you can do.  It's the same as the Mystic Theurge vs Wizard comparison, I'd say, except that the Mystic Theurge actually adds more variety in what you can do (like decent healing) while Beguiler actually loses general variety in favor of versitility in a few specific areas (will based save or sucks, illusions).

For the second part, I think it's the Sorcerer all the way.  They're far better with Runestaffs, and while they're not nearly as good with Arcane Disciple they can make Mage of the Arcane Order do far far more.  Shadowcraft Mage is incredible but probably inappropriate in most games. 

For the rest, it's a tossup I'd say, once we consider the fact that Sorcerers are going to PrC out the vast majority of the time... it's only at the lower levels that the Beguiler's superior class features matter much.  And who really cares whether you're wearing light armor or no armor past level 7 or so on a caster?  I'd rather use Mirror Image!

So yeah, the Sorcerer is WAY ahead of the Beguiler in raw power.  The Beguiler is quite strong early on when the Sorcerer has very few options, but at every level the Sorc gains many completely new options while most Beguiler options are actually just modified versions of old tricks.  Is the Beguiler a great class?  Absolutely.  But the Sorcerer has the raw power, as much raw power as the DM will allow.  And when we're talking about class balance and a system designed to help players and DMs decide what they should use and what shouldn't be allowed, more red flags should come up for a class that can churn out a bunch of different super powered options than for a class that has even more options which are mostly pretty similar and none particularly game breaking or even overpowered (except maybe Colorspray and Glitterdust at the low levels.  Time stop is far less scary without Celerity, considering the level you get it).

JaronK

[Midnight_v]

Time stop is far less scary without Celerity, considering the level you get it).

LOL True true.
We were calling it "The Fix" round here for a while.
1.Foresight
2.Celerity
3.Timestop
4.  - stuff?
5. Win D&D. 
Very annoying but at least it helps one win at rocket tag.

+1 on the rest of the post too.

[The Lurker]

Basic Sorcerer/Beguiler comparison:

Spells Known:  Beguiler has more of them, but many are redundant, and there are massive gaps (long term utility spells, non will based save or sucks, teleportation, etc).  Also, they rarely have the best spells of any given level (though Colorspray and Glitterdust mean they've got very solid lower level combat options).  Sorcerer has fewer spells known, but they can all be the most powerful spells that the campaign allows, and there are very few gaps in what's available (though a given Sorcerer may have trouble covering everything... which may not matter, as the Sorc takes what the rest of the party doesn't offer).

This paragraph is 100% inferior as a data comparison method to mine.  Weak.

Adding spells known:  Both can use Runestaffs, though Beguilers need UMD at reasonably high levels (DC 19+2*spell level to pretend to be a Wizard of appropriate level, can't take 10) to make use of them and must purchase them while the Sorcerer can make their own (and then retrain or alter spells afterwords).  Note that the Sorcerer's access to Teleportation makes purchasing Runestaffs far easier mid campaign.  Both can use Arcane Disciple, but Beguilers get far better use out of it since it would otherwise use up a Sorcerer's spells known, but Arcane Disciple does require a bunch of Wisdom and some cross class ranks for both.  Sorcerers can use Mage of the Arcane Order to get access to every Wizard/Sorcerer spell, though it costs extra slots and time to do so, making it primarily suitable for utility and downtime spells only.  Both can use Shadowcraft Mage.

With the exception that MotAO is a shitty class, I think we agree on all points here.

Skills:  Beguiler obviously wins here by a wide margin, though this only matters before PrCing out (of course, only a Beguiler has a reason not to PrC out).

Class features:  Familiars are cute but a Beguiler could take Obtain Familiar and then use their skills with a familiar, and the other Beguiler class features are obviously far superior to the Sorcerer's lack thereof.  One note is that Sorcerers can drop their familiar for faster metamagicking, which Beguilers don't have access to, and of course class features past level 5 or so don't matter much since PrCs become a bigger factor.

Sorcerers really shouldn't drop their familiars though.  Imbue familiar with spell ability is a fucking awesome spell.

Racial:  Both can get a lot of millage from gnomes.  Sorcerers get a huge boost from Kobolds.

Well, yeah.  Kobold shenanigans are silly.  They are top end optimization, so of no use discussing for a general resource to help people that aren't rules savvy balance their games.

PrCs:  Beguilers can get into Mindbender far more easily.  Both can rock out with Shadowcraft Mage in obscene ways.  Sorcerers have better access to the rest of the power PrCs, though, and make far better use of Tainted Sorcerer, Anima Mage, and Incantrix, mostly by having spells that can better make use of free metamagics like Persistant Spell.

If by tainted sorcerer, you're referencing the class that gets NI DCs and Spells per day, that's too silly to discuss.
Anima mage is a pretty strong PrC, all things considered.
Incantatrix is strong, but is high end (setting specific adds obscurity points) and generally not that much greater in power than fatespinner until high levels (it is stronger though; just not *much* stronger).

So, I'll give you anima mage as a totally legitimate point.  If we're thinking the same mechanic, then Tainted Sorcerer is right out for shenanigans.  And Incantatrix is of course, top end rules knowledge, so doesn't matter for this discussion.

So, the first part comes down to a question of what's more powerful... having a bigger number of potent abilities, or a smaller number of extremely potent abilities with a wider variety in what you can do.  It's the same as the Mystic Theurge vs Wizard comparison, I'd say, except that the Mystic Theurge actually adds more variety in what you can do (like decent healing) while Beguiler actually loses general variety in favor of versitility in a few specific areas (will based save or sucks, illusions).

Again, look at my side by side comparison.  This entire paragraph is bullshit.

For the second part, I think it's the Sorcerer all the way.  They're far better with Runestaffs, and while they're not nearly as good with Arcane Disciple they can make Mage of the Arcane Order do far far more.  Shadowcraft Mage is incredible but probably inappropriate in most games.  

Runestaffs are better for beguiler (because he gets to sidestep his list while still keeping his own goodies like glibness).  I've already shown this.  UMD isn't even a big deal because it's so god damn easy to meet the check with full ranks (off the top of my head: Full ranks+circlet of persuasion+12 cha nets a bonus of 7+Character level.  The DC is 20+Character level.  Since there's no penalty for failing a UMD check on runestaffs (you just don't use the item), you can totally just keep trying until you *do* make the check because you're picking up out of combat once per day spells).

For the rest, it's a tossup I'd say, once we consider the fact that Sorcerers are going to PrC out the vast majority of the time... it's only at the lower levels that the Beguiler's superior class features matter much.  And who really cares whether you're wearing light armor or no armor past level 7 or so on a caster?  I'd rather use Mirror Image!

Again, look at the actual side by side comparisons.  Beguilers actually get mirror image as well.

So yeah, the Sorcerer is WAY ahead of the Beguiler in raw power.  The Beguiler is quite strong early on when the Sorcerer has very few options, but at every level the Sorc gains many completely new options while most Beguiler options are actually just modified versions of old tricks.  Is the Beguiler a great class?  Absolutely.  But the Sorcerer has the raw power, as much raw power as the DM will allow.  And when we're talking about class balance and a system designed to help players and DMs decide what they should use and what shouldn't be allowed, more red flags should come up for a class that can churn out a bunch of different super powered options than for a class that has even more options which are mostly pretty similar and none particularly game breaking or even overpowered (except maybe Colorspray and Glitterdust at the low levels.  Time stop is far less scary without Celerity, considering the level you get it).

Again, look at the side by side comparisons.

[The Lurker]

Time stop is far less scary without Celerity, considering the level you get it).

LOL True true.
We were calling it "The Fix" round here for a while.
1.Foresight
2.Celerity
3.Timestop
4.   - stuff?
5. Win D&D.  
Very annoying but at least it helps one win at rocket tag.

+1 on the rest of the post too.

Midnight, nobody actually cares about celerity+timestop combinations.  Fuck, nobody cares about time stop.  It comes into play at 15% of non-epic levels for the sorcerer and beguiler (well, 10% for sorcerer because he wasn't an idiot and just picked shapechange first).  The number of people that play at those levels as compared to level 10 or 5 or 3 is astronomically small and none of them are the people that would actually look to the Tiers system for advice.  They don't fucking matter for this thread.

PS: http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=50101
Just, for discussion.

[Midnight_v]

Time stop is far less scary without Celerity, considering the level you get it).

LOL True true.
We were calling it "The Fix" round here for a while.
1.Foresight
2.Celerity
3.Timestop
4.   - stuff?
5. Win D&D.  
Very annoying but at least it helps one win at rocket tag.

+1 on the rest of the post too.

Midnight, nobody actually cares about celerity+timestop combinations.  Fuck, nobody cares about time stop.  It comes into play at 15% of non-epic levels for the sorcerer and beguiler (well, 10% for sorcerer because he wasn't an idiot and just picked shapechange first).  The number of people that play at those levels as compared to level 10 or 5 or 3 is astronomically small and none of them are the people that would actually look to the Tiers system for advice.  They don't fucking matter for this thread.

PS: http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=50101
Just, for discussion.

makes it no less funny.

[Kaelik]

Okay. A few points I want to make:

1) Beguilers with 12-14 Wis are not Super mad relative to Sorcerer. What's your Sorcerers Int score again? Seriously, make a 32 PB Sorcerer who doesn't have Int at least 12 and can still actually make it into the PrCs you guys are harping. Are you giving up the Concentration skill? Is he Human? Generally speaking: Concentration + Knowledge Arcana + Spellcraft + maybe some other shit.

And skill points, unlike Wis to cast spells, isn't upped by a +X item. So what's his intelligence score? Which leads me right into:

2) Incantatrix. It's banned a lot. Like, if the Beguiler isn't a Shadowcraft Mage, you aren't an Incantatrix. But even if you were: You give up a school to get Seize Concentration and Steal Summoning? Of course not. You give it up to get Metamagic effect and cooperative metamagic.

Which are based on your Int score, twice. You have 12 int to be less mad than the Beguiler? Great, you have 4 uses per day. What can you do with those uses? Well, at level 9 when you get access to it, you have a spellcraft modifier of +13, so with a DC of 18+3 times modifier, well, you can succeed on Extending a 1st level spell on a roll of 11 or higher. Way to go. Your class feature is that you extend two first level spells a day. That's way better than Mindbender and Fatespinner.

Good thing you aren't MAD, or you'd have a problem.

Let me guess, no one actually considered what you could do with Incantatrix at level 10, you were all salivating over level 20 Persists, which you still can't even do with a Sorcerer since the DC is 60 to Persist a 9th level spell, and your non MAD Sorcerer has a modifier of +30 for his 4 uses a day.

But don't worry, you can still Persist 2 or 3 level 2 spells each day.

[Dan2]

Knock it off.  Seriously.

This thread is going to be temporarily locked while we clean up.