Author Topic: Tier System for Classes  (Read 616233 times)

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Midnight_v

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #800 on: August 03, 2009, 12:29:32 AM »
What about a challenge perhaps? I happen to believe the way of the gentleman is through action after a debate like what we have seen here.

What say you Lurker & Jaron K? Each of you construct a build (without any 'cheese,' which would be defined) and run it through an appropriate level-based gauntlet and afterwards discuss the results.

I mean, we can stay in the realm of theoretical debate but it's time for us to become practical. No?
I don't know if thats fair, that brings a whole lot of optimizer skill into it. Which this isn't about that is it? A comparision like that isn't exclusive to the character classes.
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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #801 on: August 03, 2009, 12:34:07 AM »
What about a challenge perhaps? I happen to believe the way of the gentleman is through action after a debate like what we have seen here.

What say you Lurker & Jaron K? Each of you construct a build (without any 'cheese,' which would be defined) and run it through an appropriate level-based gauntlet and afterwards discuss the results.

I mean, we can stay in the realm of theoretical debate but it's time for us to become practical. No?
I don't know if thats fair, that brings a whole lot of optimizer skill into it. Which this isn't about that is it? A comparision like that isn't exclusive to the character classes.
Well, we don't even need to run the gauntlet.  We just need to look at what the class is capable of dealing with (per the same game test) and what utility capabilities it has (that'll be more or less a direct comparison).  I've already done half the work.

Remember guys, this thread is supposed to be a resource for people that are *not* top optimizers.  As such, we should see how easy it is to be competent with the class first, then how much the class improves with a bit of knowledge (which is more or less what my comparison measures because wings of flurry is definitely obscure to a lot of players).

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #802 on: August 03, 2009, 12:44:04 AM »
Right, I forget.  It was Baleful Polymorph VS Teleport, not PAO.  In which case, then I would most definitely take Teleport over Baleful Polymorph.  Although Contact Other Plane is... tempting.  

Or is there a [shadow] spell the sorcerer should be taking in that slot?

Runestaff of Summoning (if it exists) would be very sweet for the sorcerer.  Allows him to cut down on precious spell selection of BC and nukes.


Lurker:
Are SoDs that important when Wings of Flurry pwns everything not immune to force damage?

Also, game changing effects doesn't have to be explosive rune bombs.  Those take very long to make, as you kindly pointed out in your Red Hand of Doom module example.  There's better ways to doing things than that.  

Take it from the other side.  Imagine you're the BBEG about to design his dungeon to protect himself while researching Spell: End the World.  You have access to traps, minions and various normal stuff.  Rare stuff you can get too, but in limited quantities. (no making your dungeon out of iron, a room maybe)
Which would you rather face?  The sorcerer or the beguiler?

As JaronK and you have agreed (I think anyway), the beguiler contains many tricks and powerful spell combos that will easily flatten your minions and bypass traps.  All without any preparation, the beguiler can bunny hop into your dungeon tomorrow on a whim and do what he does.  You'll probably lose minions to mind control (beguilers are good at that), and traps to skill monkeyness.  

While I think the sorcerer would simply drop in and have the exact spells/scrolls/runestaffs needed to deal with whatever you have.  Or have the exact way to bypass most/all your obstacles and/or cave in the dungeon over you.  

The sorcerer is harder to predict than the beguiler.  But the beguiler is stronger in straight up combat.  


EDIT:
I might like to point out that having lots of personal power can be translated to a strategic advantage.  And vice-versa. 

A lot of the problems with "let's kill a wiz" threads is that strategic advantage is far too nebulous to be properly assessed.  I think that same problem is starting to creep in here. 
« Last Edit: August 03, 2009, 12:48:17 AM by jseah »

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #803 on: August 03, 2009, 12:46:13 AM »
What about a challenge perhaps? I happen to believe the way of the gentleman is through action after a debate like what we have seen here.

What say you Lurker & Jaron K? Each of you construct a build (without any 'cheese,' which would be defined) and run it through an appropriate level-based gauntlet and afterwards discuss the results.

I mean, we can stay in the realm of theoretical debate but it's time for us to become practical. No?
I don't know if thats fair, that brings a whole lot of optimizer skill into it. Which this isn't about that is it? A comparision like that isn't exclusive to the character classes.
Well, we don't even need to run the gauntlet.  We just need to look at what the class is capable of dealing with (per the same game test) and what utility capabilities it has (that'll be more or less a direct comparison).  I've already done half the work.

There would be no dice rolling (ideally) in the gauntlet that I have within my mind. It would just be a list of obstacles and than a response detailing how the build would succeed in ovecoming the obstacles.

It's sort of like the last Rocky film. You can have the stat machines coming up with numbers and predictions but at the end of the day you need to see a demonstration.  

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #804 on: August 03, 2009, 01:03:37 AM »
What about a challenge perhaps? I happen to believe the way of the gentleman is through action after a debate like what we have seen here.

What say you Lurker & Jaron K? Each of you construct a build (without any 'cheese,' which would be defined) and run it through an appropriate level-based gauntlet and afterwards discuss the results.

I mean, we can stay in the realm of theoretical debate but it's time for us to become practical. No?
I don't know if thats fair, that brings a whole lot of optimizer skill into it. Which this isn't about that is it? A comparision like that isn't exclusive to the character classes.
Well, we don't even need to run the gauntlet.  We just need to look at what the class is capable of dealing with (per the same game test) and what utility capabilities it has (that'll be more or less a direct comparison).  I've already done half the work.

There would be no dice rolling (ideally) in the gauntlet that I have within my mind. It would just be a list of obstacles and than a response detailing how the build would succeed in ovecoming the obstacles.

It's sort of like the last Rocky film. You can have the stat machines coming up with numbers and predictions but at the end of the day you need to see a demonstration.  
Dude, that's totally what I was thinking when I mentioned the same game test.  This is a completely legitimate way to compare classes.

PS: If we're getting to this point, does that mean I win, or are y'all just humoring me?

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #805 on: August 03, 2009, 01:16:20 AM »
Right, I forget.  It was Baleful Polymorph VS Teleport, not PAO.  In which case, then I would most definitely take Teleport over Baleful Polymorph.  Although Contact Other Plane is... tempting.  

Or is there a [shadow] spell the sorcerer should be taking in that slot?

Runestaff of Summoning (if it exists) would be very sweet for the sorcerer.  Allows him to cut down on precious spell selection of BC and nukes.
In my post here, I addressed why runestaffs aren't something that gives either class an edge in this.  They're still awesome though (for both classes).
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Lurker:
Are SoDs that important when Wings of Flurry pwns everything not immune to force damage?
Simply put, yes.  Wings of flurry at this level does maybe a die or two more than fireball.  If the enemy saves, then you basically just cast fireball.  If they fail the save, then they lose one round of actions.  Wings of flurry takes 2-3 rounds to kill someone even if they fail their save.  Longer if they make saves.  Statistically speaking, baleful polymorph is going to end combat quicker against single targets.  Against multiple targets, we have to consider whether we even can get more than one target in it.  Against multiple targets though, you don't want a chance for them to not lose actions, so you're better off casting solid fog or EBT (or any of the upgrades to either of those spells) and then peppering away at range with whatever you feel needed.
Quote
Also, game changing effects doesn't have to be explosive rune bombs.  Those take very long to make, as you kindly pointed out in your Red Hand of Doom module example.  There's better ways to doing things than that.  

Take it from the other side.  Imagine you're the BBEG about to design his dungeon to protect himself while researching Spell: End the World.  You have access to traps, minions and various normal stuff.  Rare stuff you can get too, but in limited quantities. (no making your dungeon out of iron, a room maybe)
Which would you rather face?  The sorcerer or the beguiler

As JaronK and you have agreed (I think anyway), the beguiler contains many tricks and powerful spell combos that will easily flatten your minions and bypass traps.  All without any preparation, the beguiler can bunny hop into your dungeon tomorrow on a whim and do what he does.  You'll probably lose minions to mind control (beguilers are good at that), and traps to skill monkeyness.  

While I think the sorcerer would simply drop in and have the exact spells/scrolls/runestaffs needed to deal with whatever you have.  Or have the exact way to bypass most/all your obstacles and/or cave in the dungeon over you.  
Assuming that the sorcerer knows enough divination to figure out what's needed and has enough wealth, yeah he can do it.  However, the beguiler starts with divination and generally has a lot more toolkits.  It's a lot easier to just throw an effect a sorcerer can't deal with (generally, sorcerers don't have death ward for instance) than a beguiler.

So, I'd generally prefer a sorcerer attacking my dungeon.  It's like russian roulette.  You just keep different effects around until he runs into one he *can't* escape (like a death effect).  The beguiler survives a lot longer on russian roulette than the sorcerer.  The sorcerer just has slightly better top end offense.
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The sorcerer is harder to predict than the beguiler.  But the beguiler is stronger in straight up combat.  
The sorcerer is harder to predict *in build*.  Any given sorcerer is easier to predict than any given beguiler because he has quite literally fewer tools to deal with situations.
Quote
EDIT:
I might like to point out that having lots of personal power can be translated to a strategic advantage.  And vice-versa. 

A lot of the problems with "let's kill a wiz" threads is that strategic advantage is far too nebulous to be properly assessed.  I think that same problem is starting to creep in here. 
I'm not sure what you mean here.

JaronK

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #806 on: August 03, 2009, 03:26:39 AM »
I've already done a test gauntlet thing with Lurker before, and it was absolutely stupid.  He whined and complained that my optimization level was too high.  It was Factotum vs Rogue, and I had a Human Factotum 5 with Font of Inspiration X2 and EWP: Gnomish Quickrazor, riding a purchased 1HD advanced Warbeast Desmoderu Hunting Bat (MMII)), and my level 6 and 9 feats were going to be Item Familiar and Create Wonderous Item.  Mostly he whined that Item Familiars were too powerful and that the Warbeast Hunting Bat didn't have a listed cost (it does, in the Warbeast template), couldn't carry a human (it has a 600 pound light load) and wasn't something that could be purchased (it's the cheapest domesticated flyer that a human can ride, and it's bred "in the same way that humans breed hunting dogs").

Then his entry?  A Necropolitan Halfling Rogue with Item Familiar set up as an alchemy thrower.  Far more optimized than what I'd thrown out... mine was actually something I was using in an upcoming campaign, whereas I'm not sure I've ever even seen a potion thrower Rogue used.

So no, I will not do a face off against him again, as it will not be productive and would have far too much whining with far too little actual result.  He's just as honest in build challenges as he is in debates.

Meanwhile, I'm watching a Beguiler and a Sorcerer, both of very similar (and very high) optimization levels in the same group right now.  Both are Venerable Dragonwrought Kobolds.  The Sorcerer has Loredrake, the Beguiler has one of the Archtypes that gives all Cleric spells.  They're level 2.  As you can imagine, the Sorcerer is currently far superior due to having second level spells at level 2, though the Beguiler being able to cast Lesser Vigor really helps since both our primary healers (a DMM Cleric and a Crusader) are out of commission for a few weeks (stupid confusion trap!).  In another game (low power, low wealth), there was a Sorcerer and a Beguiler, but the Beguiler died when he got caught alone and trapped with a bunch of enemies and no way to actually kill them, and is now reanimated as my pet Corpse Creature (go Dread Necromancer!).  The Sorcerer is still up and running in that game, still using Glitterdust to great effect as our DM likes using Illusions mid fight and Glitterdust can really help with that.

JaronK

lans

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #807 on: August 03, 2009, 03:29:35 AM »
I have a question on the tier system in what is assumed to be allowed source wise. Which is What is assumed to be allowed source wise and why?

 I see a lot of things that come from online material such as font of inspiration and spell to power. As well as material that is  setting specific such as venomfire and iajitsu focus. Are the only assumptions assumed, by the tier system, that there is an equal amount of optimization going on and that players know
their classes and what's available to them ?
« Last Edit: August 03, 2009, 03:35:14 AM by lans »
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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #808 on: August 03, 2009, 03:37:10 AM »
I tend to assume something roughly along the lines of
a) SRD + WotC Web enhancements (because they're easy to show to a DM who doesn't own the book).
b) Whatever book the class is from (duh)
c) One set of campaign setting books
d) three books for your character chosen specifically for optimization.

It's relatively lax, I admit.
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lans

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #809 on: August 03, 2009, 03:47:12 AM »
I tend to assume something roughly along the lines of
a) SRD + WotC Web enhancements (because they're easy to show to a DM who doesn't own the book).
b) Whatever book the class is from (duh)
c) One set of campaign setting books
d) three books for your character chosen specifically for optimization.

It's relatively lax, I admit.
So you assume either the OA book, Ghostwalk, the ebberon books or the gazzillion Realms books? ABD I can understand, but have to ask why 3 other books? Is that a mid amount of optness and more is considered adding to the opt level?
« Last Edit: August 03, 2009, 03:49:19 AM by lans »
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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #810 on: August 03, 2009, 03:49:19 AM »
I have a question on the tier system in what is assumed to be allowed source wise. Which is What is assumed to be allowed source wise and why?

You already asked this a while ago.  Tiers do not assume anything other than that the class has access to Core and the book it's found in, and that the rest of the group has access to the same books.

In cases where it matters however (a big example is the Healer), I assumed that the more common the source, the more likely the class would have access to something, and thus the greater the increase from the thing.   I consider Core and the book the class is found in to be most commonly available, Completes and non-core SRD next most common, online articles directly related to the class and PHB II next, non setting specific 3.5 books next (such as Heroes of Horror or DMG II), and setting specific/online articles not related to the class/3.0 books least common.  Thus, I consider it very likely that Lion Totem is available to Barbarians because it's in completes, but rank them a little lower than where it would be if Lion Totem was in core (but that still doesn't drop them a tier).  I likewise consider it very likely that a Factotum has Font of Inspiration available, because it's in the Class Chronicles for Factotums, so Factotums are mostly ranked as if that were available, but I do factor in the fact that it might not be.  I don't count the fact that Healers could use Corrupted or Sanctified spells much, because those are from 3.0 books and are thus less likely to be available, though I did consider it a little.

Quote
I see a lot of things that come from online material such as font of inspiration and spell to power. As well as material that is  setting specific such as venomfire and iajitsu focus. Are the only assumptions assumed, by the tier system, that there is an equal amount of optimization going on and that players know
their classes and what's available to them ?

If it's in the Class Chronicles (Font of Inspiration, for example) I consider it pretty likely that it's available, but not a gaurentee.  Something like Iajuitsu Focus is less likely to be available, though classes that get access to the skill I figured were more likely to have access to it (after all, access to that and Autohypnosis is the main advantage of having all skills as class skills).  Venomfire is just one of so many tricks the Druid has that it didn't factor in much.

But yes, the primary assumption is that every class has access to the same amount of stuff and know their class to a reasonable degree, and that Core + the book the thing is found in are going to be available.  I mean, obviously no one's going to play a Dread Necromancer if they don't get to use Heroes of Horror (though there's a special note on DNs, as I assumed you've also got Fiend Folio if you're playing one.  The class entry references that book).

JaronK

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #811 on: August 03, 2009, 03:50:17 AM »
I've already done a test gauntlet thing with Lurker before, and it was absolutely stupid.  He whined and complained that my optimization level was too high.  It was Factotum vs Rogue, and I had a Human Factotum 5 with Font of Inspiration X2 and EWP: Gnomish Quickrazor, riding a purchased 1HD advanced Warbeast Desmoderu Hunting Bat (MMII)), and my level 6 and 9 feats were going to be Item Familiar and Create Wonderous Item.  Mostly he whined that Item Familiars were too powerful and that the Warbeast Hunting Bat didn't have a listed cost (it does, in the Warbeast template), couldn't carry a human (it has a 600 pound light load) and wasn't something that could be purchased (it's the cheapest domesticated flyer that a human can ride, and it's bred "in the same way that humans breed hunting dogs").
This is called lying.  I still have the sheet from that.  I didn't even play a rogue.  Someone else played a rogue (and presumably called bullshit on item familiar for being "Moar XP").

Once more, it doesn't matter what the top level of optimization gives when we're ranking in a resource like this.  For a resource like this, we MUST assume that the person using it doesn't know as much as us (because otherwise they wouldn't be asking how strong something is; they would know).
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Then his entry?  A Necropolitan Halfling Rogue with Item Familiar set up as an alchemy thrower.  Far more optimized than what I'd thrown out... mine was actually something I was using in an upcoming campaign, whereas I'm not sure I've ever even seen a potion thrower Rogue used.
No.  It wasn't.  I still have the god damn sheet:
http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=90532
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So no, I will not do a face off against him again, as it will not be productive and would have far too much whining with far too little actual result.  He's just as honest in build challenges as he is in debates.
Stop lying.
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Meanwhile, I'm watching a Beguiler and a Sorcerer, both of very similar (and very high) optimization levels in the same group right now.  Both are Venerable Dragonwrought Kobolds.  The Sorcerer has Loredrake, the Beguiler has one of the Archtypes that gives all Cleric spells.  They're level 2.  As you can imagine, the Sorcerer is currently far superior due to having second level spells at level 2, though the Beguiler being able to cast Lesser Vigor really helps since both our primary healers (a DMM Cleric and a Crusader) are out of commission for a few weeks (stupid confusion trap!).  In another game (low power, low wealth), there was a Sorcerer and a Beguiler, but the Beguiler died when he got caught alone and trapped with a bunch of enemies and no way to actually kill them, and is now reanimated as my pet Corpse Creature (go Dread Necromancer!).  The Sorcerer is still up and running in that game, still using Glitterdust to great effect as our DM likes using Illusions mid fight and Glitterdust can really help with that.

JaronK
Now, did anyone in that group actually give a fuck about tiers?  Did they try to use them for for balancing their game?

Remember, JaronK.  If the answer to that question is "No," then you've just made that paragraph a complete waste of our time.

The Lurker

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #812 on: August 03, 2009, 03:52:36 AM »
I have a question on the tier system in what is assumed to be allowed source wise. Which is What is assumed to be allowed source wise and why?

You already asked this a while ago.  Tiers do not assume anything other than that the class has access to Core and the book it's found in, and that the rest of the group has access to the same books.
So, you're admitting that under the constraints of the tier system that you yourself made, beguilers are more powerful than sorcerers?

JaronK

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #813 on: August 03, 2009, 04:08:02 AM »
So, you're admitting that under the constraints of the tier system that you yourself made, beguilers are more powerful than sorcerers?

Um, no.  I don't know how you came to that conclusion, but that's got nothing to do with what I said.  Read better?  Keep reading since you seem to have missed the post?

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #814 on: August 03, 2009, 04:11:24 AM »
So, you're admitting that under the constraints of the tier system that you yourself made, beguilers are more powerful than sorcerers?

Um, no.  I don't know how you came to that conclusion, but that's got nothing to do with what I said.  Read better?  Keep reading since you seem to have missed the post?

JaronK
Tiers do not assume anything other than that the class has access to Core and the book it's found in, and that the rest of the group has access to the same books.
So, do you or do you not assume more than core+the book the class is in?

lans

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #815 on: August 03, 2009, 04:20:58 AM »
I have a question on the tier system in what is assumed to be allowed source wise. Which is What is assumed to be allowed source wise and why?

You already asked this a while ago.  Tiers do not assume anything other than that the class has access to Core and the book it's found in, and that the rest of the group has access to the same books.
 You gave a more workable answer below this time.

Quote
In cases where it matters however (a big example is the Healer), I assumed that the more common the source, the more likely the class would have access to something, and thus the greater the increase from the thing.   I consider Core and the book the class is found in to be most commonly available, Completes and non-core SRD next most common, online articles directly related to the class and PHB II next, non setting specific 3.5 books next (such as Heroes of Horror or DMG II), and setting specific/online articles not related to the class/3.0 books least common.  Thus, I consider it very likely that Lion Totem is available to Barbarians because it's in completes, but rank them a little lower than where it would be if Lion Totem was in core (but that still doesn't drop them a tier).  I likewise consider it very likely that a Factotum has Font of Inspiration available, because it's in the Class Chronicles for Factotums, so Factotums are mostly ranked as if that were available, but I do factor in the fact that it might not be.  I don't count the fact that Healers could use Corrupted or Sanctified spells much, because those are from 3.0 books and are thus less likely to be available, though I did consider it a little.
I like Mad linguist system better, and Exalted Deeds is a 3.5. non setting specific book. Which puts it right behind font of inspiration with your allow ability.

Quote
Quote
I see a lot of things that come from online material such as font of inspiration and spell to power. As well as material that is  setting specific such as venomfire and iajitsu focus. Are the only assumptions assumed, by the tier system, that there is an equal amount of optimization going on and that players know
their classes and what's available to them ?

If it's in the Class Chronicles (Font of Inspiration, for example) I consider it pretty likely that it's available, but not a gaurentee.  Something like Iajuitsu Focus is less likely to be available, though classes that get access to the skill I figured were more likely to have access to it (after all, access to that and Autohypnosis is the main advantage of having all skills as class skills).  Venomfire is just one of so many tricks the Druid has that it didn't factor in much.

But yes, the primary assumption is that every class has access to the same amount of stuff and know their class to a reasonable degree, and that Core + the book the thing is found in are going to be available.  I mean, obviously no one's going to play a Dread Necromancer if they don't get to use Heroes of Horror (though there's a special note on DNs, as I assumed you've also got Fiend Folio if you're playing one.  The class entry references that book).

JaronK
A problem with this system is that  Healers actually play at, or close to tier 3 with 2 additional books allowed. If they are using bans or gestalt then this can lead to some heavy surprises to the DM when his dragon that was supposed to be a challenge for the Soulknife, paladin, expert, healer group takes 20 points of dex damage and the battle is over in one round.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2009, 04:24:25 AM by lans »
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lans

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #816 on: August 03, 2009, 04:29:43 AM »
So, you're admitting that under the constraints of the tier system that you yourself made, beguilers are more powerful than sorcerers?

Um, no.  I don't know how you came to that conclusion, but that's got nothing to do with what I said.  Read better?  Keep reading since you seem to have missed the post?

JaronK
Tiers do not assume anything other than that the class has access to Core and the book it's found in, and that the rest of the group has access to the same books.
So, do you or do you not assume more than core+the book the class is in?

So you want to compare core+ PHB2  sorcerer to core+ PHB2  beguiler? That seems very stupid, except I just realized that you've been consistently comparing at level 10 were that might actually be an advantage. Not counting 3-5 or so spells that are "cheesy"
« Last Edit: August 03, 2009, 04:31:14 AM by lans »
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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #817 on: August 03, 2009, 04:36:30 AM »
So, you're admitting that under the constraints of the tier system that you yourself made, beguilers are more powerful than sorcerers?

Um, no.  I don't know how you came to that conclusion, but that's got nothing to do with what I said.  Read better?  Keep reading since you seem to have missed the post?

JaronK
Tiers do not assume anything other than that the class has access to Core and the book it's found in, and that the rest of the group has access to the same books.
So, do you or do you not assume more than core+the book the class is in?

So you want to compare core+ PHB2  sorcerer to core+ PHB2  beguiler? That seems very stupid, except I just realized that you've been consistently comparing at level 10 were that might actually be an advantage. Not counting 3-5 or so spells that are "cheesy"
Well, level 10 sees more play than level 14.  Level six sees even more play than level 10, but that's fricken rigged because the sorcerer doesn't even get save or dies.

I figured ten was pretty fair for "Sees play often enough" territory.

But yeah, we could run that comparison.

lans

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #818 on: August 03, 2009, 04:39:52 AM »
I think the 4-13ish range is were the vast majority of games take place, from my experiance at least. Normally starting is 4+ by about the time 3.5 came out.
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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #819 on: August 03, 2009, 04:44:10 AM »
I think the 4-13ish range is were the vast majority of games take place, from my experiance at least. Normally starting is 4+ by about the time 3.5 came out.
So, you basically agree with me about picking levels that see more play?  What level for comparison do you think is most fair?