Tier System for Classes

[ErhnamDJ]

Did the spell compendium do anything with their spell list?

SC only added stuff to the Core (Prestige) Classes unfortunately.

Check out page 4 of the Spell Compendium. It says: "Wu Jen (Complete Arcane): Add spells with element (except air,) wood, and metal themes."

Just without thinking, that means: Elemental Body, Ironguard, Summon Elemental Monolith, Spikes, Brambles, Splinterbolt, and Orbs. I'm sure if you dig through the book, you'll find a ton more for them.

They're ahead of a core wizard. What tier is a core-only wizard?

[JaronK]

Remember that the point of this system is to help balance games.  As such, there's no point in comparing a core only Wizard to an all splatbook Wu Jen, as those two will probably never be in the same game together.  Either you're playing core only (and thus not with the Wu Jen) or you're not playing core only (and thus not playing a core Wizard).

With that said, core Wizards have Planar Binding, Alter Self (though it's far more limited there), Shapechange, Glitterdust, and a lot of their other big name spells, so it's not like core Wizards are weak by comparison.

I'm not going to put Wilder or Wu Jen on the list until I'm actually experienced with them, which I'm not.  By my guess is that they're both in the T2/T3 range, being at most in the Psion/Sorcerer range and at least in the Beguiler/Dread Necromancer range.  Neither is at Archivist level (persistant Giant Size!) but they've also got a lot more power than something like a Rogue. 

JaronK

[Bozwevial]

Remember that the point of this system is to help balance games.  As such, there's no point in comparing a core only Wizard to an all splatbook Wu Jen, as those two will probably never be in the same game together.  Either you're playing core only (and thus not with the Wu Jen) or you're not playing core only (and thus not playing a core Wizard).

Just a thought that's probably been mentioned before, but what if the availability of splatbooks were proportionate to Tier? Tier 1 characters would have the bare minimum of splatbooks (core only Wizards, for instance), and as you go lower in Tier, you add books.

[JaronK]

That would certainly have an effect, but the fact that the worst of the unbalanced spells are in fact core would help the T1s relatively well that way.  Still, it would do something, keeping the Clerics away from Persistant Spell and the Druids away from Planar Shepard (if they were going that route). 

JaronK

[ErhnamDJ]

My point was, what tier would a core-only wizard be, compared to everyone else having full access to every splatbook?

Because whatever that is, the Wu Jen is at least on even keel with him.

I can't see any way the full splatbook Wu Jen is tier 3. Gate, Shapechange, Time Stop. These are things the Sorcerer has. But the Wu Jen has more. He gets his second level spells at level three. He's always a level ahead of the poor sorc. And the sorc is tier 2.

Wu Jen gets the full assortment of spells your average sorcerer takes (give or take; no color spray, no web), plus the option of more. I could make a Sorcerer, then compare his spells to the Wu Jen, and the Wu Jen would come out to be preferable, plus he gets all his spells, and half the time he is casting a higher level spell than the sorc.

Look in Complete Arcane. Wu Jen gets a line of spells called Spirit Binding. They function exactly the same as Planar Bindings, but they get the first one two levels earlier than the wizard (4th vs. 5th level spells), and they each have a higher hit dice they are able to summon.

Barring extreme tricks, the Wu Jen is ahead of the Sorcerer. And if we're using extreme tricks, then they'll both smash the game just the same.

[VennDygrem]

So I'm getting that it should be T2/T3, depending on optimization, and that given moderate optimization it should still come out to around T2. Sure it can't research as many spells as a Wizard, and doesn't get as many per day as a Sorcerer, but it's still very versatile.

This answers my question, as I've been considering it for a cohort in a PbP wherein tier matters.

On another note:

I'm not going to put Wilder or Wu Jen on the list until I'm actually experienced with them, which I'm not.  By my guess is that they're both in the T2/T3 range, being at most in the Psion/Sorcerer range and at least in the Beguiler/Dread Necromancer range.  Neither is at Archivist level (persistant Giant Size!) but they've also got a lot more power than something like a Rogue. 

The PbP game I'm in is assuming Beguiler as T2. It gets a boat load of class features, tons of spells per day, knows all its list's spells, and can expand its list through advanced learning- Plus d6 hit dice, armored casting, and tons of skill points on top of int-based casting. The Wu Jen gets Shield, but it doesn't even have Mage Armor to make up for a weak AC. I would say the average Beguiler, despite focusing mainly on mind-affecting spells, is rather more powerful than a Wu Jen, or at least has a few more things stacked in its favor. If the Wu Jen is T2, then the Beguiler certainly is.

[JaronK]

I can't see any way the full splatbook Wu Jen is tier 3. Gate, Shapechange, Time Stop. These are things the Sorcerer has. But the Wu Jen has more. He gets his second level spells at level three. He's always a level ahead of the poor sorc. And the sorc is tier 2.

Getting spells a level ahead and getting more spells means nothing if the spells aren't as good.  The question is, at level 18, does the Wu Jen get anything of equivalent power to Shapechange and Gate?  At level 4, does the Wu Jen have anything equivalent to Alter Self and Glitterdust?  It doesn't matter if the Wu Jen has more options if those options aren't as strong and versitile.  A class that had a single ability called "Solve Encounter at will" would be Tier 1 every time if it did what it said, even if it only had that one ability.

With that said, it's quite possible that the Wu Jen is T2... I don't know the class well enough to judge at all.  The point is, it's a question of how versitile and effective the options they have are, not how many options they have.

As for the Beguiler... they're certainly strong, and a bunch of people have used them in games I'm playing recently.  I don't see why you (and here I'm talking to Venn) would emphasize armored casting... it's just +4 or so to AC at low levels, and at high levels it hardly matters.  Most arcane casters can use something like Mage Armor, Greater Mage Armor, or Luminous Armor anyway.  Honestly, I don't think AC really matters much to classes that get things like mirror image or Greater Floating Disk.  Now, the Beguiler is a strong skillmonkey, but they lack a lot of the utility spells that define the arcanist.  At the end of the day, the Beguiler is functionally a skillmonkey (a very solid one), not an arcanist per se, if that makes sense.

JaronK

[ErhnamDJ]

The question is, at level 18, does the Wu Jen get anything of equivalent power to Shapechange and Gate?

Yes. Shapechange and Gate. And Time Stop, Wish, Summon Elemental Monolith, and Astral Projection. Oh, level 17 too.

At level 4, does the Wu Jen have anything equivalent to Alter Self and Glitterdust?

At level three, they get Alter Self. No Glitterdust or Web (my only problem with the class), but they do get Invisibility, Hold Person, Rope Trick, and Spider Climb. Their only problem is that at low levels, they have trouble affecting large groups of enemies (they can get Arcane Disciple to help with this a little).

They do get Stinking Cloud at fifth level, though (along with Haste, Dispel Magic, and Magic Circle for their Planar Bindings).

If the tier system is mostly about seventh level, then oh boy is the Wu Jen the bee's knees then. Things start to pick up there for them, when they get Dimension Door, Scrying, Solid Fog, Wall of Ice, Animate Dead, Greater Invisibility, Minor Creation, Polymorph, and Lesser Spirit Binding.

At later levels, they get some neat spells all their own in Giant Size, Minute Form, Finding the Center.

[VennDygrem]

I agree on the Wu Jen, it's got a very good list. And I'm not here to argue on the tiers for established classes (though I feel I've at least defended my view on them). The emphasis on the armored casting for the beguiler, along with everything else, was that I was comparing the base abilities between the two classes, as I figured that a Beguiler, as has been stated here and elsewhere, is the 'Rogue' archetype on steroids.

However, and I realize this now, that most of what I was saying has no bearing on the tier system, as my evaluations weren't based on the same criteria.

Mostly I wanted a solid, or at least basic, answer on where the class would be placed, and I got that.

[JaronK]

The Beguiler is T3 because it's very good at it's job, and very versitile, but it's not actually game breaking (unless heavily optimized, such as via Shadowcraft Mage).  Beguilers don't often suddenly shapechange into a Solar and gain Cleric casting or create alternate dimensions for fun, but in a party they'll be a great skillmonkey and provide all sorts of other useful tricks besides.  That's basically what Tier 3 is.

JaronK

[lans]

What tier would a druid be if it only had spell casting and its cleric body?

[Generic_PC]

Tier 1. Clerics are in Tier 1, Despite having only spellcasting and a cleric body. also turn undead, but...

Ultimately, in the Tier system, having just spellcasting puts you in the top 3 tiers. Having a list which is as good (and as supported) as the Druid means that you are automatically tier 1.

[lans]

In that case I want to put spirit shaman up for tier one.

It has a unique hybrid prepared/spontaneous that gives day to day flexibility, druid spell list, some alright class features, contingency heal effect that works if reduced below -10 at 19, 4 skill points a level. Revivify effect once a week at 11th, incorporeal ability, permanent protection spirits, ghost touch weapon. While these are not great they are useful.

[Negative Zero]

Actually, I'd put that spells-and-body Druid at tier 2. The lack of Wild Shape and Animal Companion really hurts. (Especially since most of the best Druid spells are buffs for animals, which the Druid can't even become because it doesn't have Polymorph) In general, it's the combination of those three very powerful class features that makes the Druid tier one. Divine Metamagic is a huge, huge reason that Clerics are tier 1. Domains and Turn Undead (naturally, the things that use turn attempts, not the turn attempts themselves) are both very powerful class features that this hypothetical Druid wouldn't get.

As for the Spirit Shaman, compare to the Sorcerer. The Sorcerer is tier 2, and it has access to the best spell list in the game. I'm not sure that the Spirit Shaman can beat that out, even with an assortment of class features that the Sorcerer certainly does not have.

[Akalsaris]

Tier 1. Clerics are in Tier 1, Despite having only spellcasting and a cleric body. also turn undead, but...

Ultimately, in the Tier system, having just spellcasting puts you in the top 3 tiers. Having a list which is as good (and as supported) as the Druid means that you are automatically tier 1.

Well, not quite, as far as spellcasting goes.  The Adept is in T4, and the Healer in T5 despite getting 9th level spells. 

Personally, I'd put the Spirit Shaman at T2 - it's capable of wreaking havoc with a game, but doesn't do so as easily as a druid does.  With the right build or PrC he'd go up to T1, and with a poor player the spirit shaman can be mediocre as well.  It depends on the role the spirit shaman is filling though. 

Beguilers I think are one of the best-designed classes in the game as far as mechanics and party power go - it's somewhere between T2 and T3, depending on build and prestige class.  It's perfectly designed to fill the trap-finding and social skills role, and can also cover some other roles like battlefield control or scouting, but its rarely going to break the game.  It's a damned good class, basically. 

Ultimately, as I've been reading the "Why Tier X's are..." threads, I've realized that I dislike the way that tier system analyzes overall power instead of how well the class fills its role.  A crusader might be T3 in terms of overall power, but it's T1 when it comes to filling the tanking role, for example - better than a cleric or druid at levels 1-10, and probably equal to them afterwards, even if its inferior in most everything else like scouting or healing - but it's hard to understand that from the tiers listings.

[ErhnamDJ]

A crusader might be T3 in terms of overall power, but it's T1 when it comes to filling the tanking role, for example - better than a cleric or druid at levels 1-10, and probably equal to them afterwards, even if its inferior in most everything else like scouting or healing - but it's hard to understand that from the tiers listings.

How do you figure? Druid at level one? I'd pick him (ruff ruff). Either caster at level nine? Yeah, I'll go with them too. The tier system is based on versatility. How's that crusader tanking against that flying dragon? Against something big, like Cthulhu? Does he need to tank when the monsters all just got battlefield-controlled to oblivion?

Maybe it's near the top of the game at what it does: standing there with a sharpened piece of metal. Those other guys, you know what they're doing? I mean, really, just take a look at polymorph. When the cleric casts a persisted Draconic Polymorph using Greater Anyspell, is the crusader still out tanking him? What about when it's Shapechange? Even the normal spells he would use put him ahead of you. How do you compare to fifth level? Persisted Alter Self on an outsider cleric. What's the crusader doing that's so powerful before that?

All the crusader does, is what he always does. When everyone else is lobbing planets, he still just stands there.

[JaronK]

Ultimately, as I've been reading the "Why Tier X's are..." threads, I've realized that I dislike the way that tier system analyzes overall power instead of how well the class fills its role.  A crusader might be T3 in terms of overall power, but it's T1 when it comes to filling the tanking role, for example - better than a cleric or druid at levels 1-10, and probably equal to them afterwards, even if its inferior in most everything else like scouting or healing - but it's hard to understand that from the tiers listings.

Actually, Tier 3 does mean that you're the near the top of your own role.  There's no such thing as "T1 when it comes to filling the tanking role" because T1 specifically means you can do all roles if you want to and you can be game breaking when you do it.  A T3 character is someone who's either really good at doing their job but just so so outside of it (like the Crusader, who's an awesome melee tank, and still useful outside the tanking role but not amazing) or good at everything without being super game breaking most of the time (like the Factotum).  That's just what Tier 3 means, and that's why the Crusader is there.

Meanwhile, I'm working on a Cleric tank right now who's a better tank than a Crusader (mostly thanks to Persistant Divine Power + Persistant Lesser Vigor) at level 8 or so.  As soon as Persistant Righteous Wrath of the Faithful kicks in, it's awesome.

But yes, T3 does mean exactly what you said... great it its job, but not amazing in other areas.  Remember, the tiers aren't about who's the best... they're about what you can accomplish in the scenarios you're given.

JaronK

[Braithwaite]

The PbP game I'm in is assuming Beguiler as T2. It gets a boat load of class features, tons of spells per day, knows all its list's spells, and can expand its list through advanced learning- Plus d6 hit dice, armored casting, and tons of skill points on top of int-based casting. The Wu Jen gets Shield, but it doesn't even have Mage Armor to make up for a weak AC. I would say the average Beguiler, despite focusing mainly on mind-affecting spells, is rather more powerful than a Wu Jen, or at least has a few more things stacked in its favor. If the Wu Jen is T2, then the Beguiler certainly is.

I think it is very reasonable to put Beguiler in T2 in some games. If you know that you will be fighting lots of humanoids, Beguiler shines. I suspect that any class at tier 3 or below will gain a tier in a campaign favorable to their abilities. A chain tripper fighter would be tier 4, if he knew that he would be in a campaign entirely filled with medium sized bipeds.

On the other hand, if you stuck the Beguiler in Barovia, and had a campaign where half of your encounters were with undead, with a liberal smattering of constructs and (at high levels) some eldrich horrors with SR and true sight, they probably fall to tier 4 (someone with a good trick, but that trick isn't always useful). The casters with more versatile lists just shrug and pick different spells.

[lans]

What are the roles? I want to know how short the sorcerer is from tier 1. Like if it had 1 additional spell known per level? Or 44?

[ErhnamDJ]

I'd say it's a long way from tier 1. Like... knowing every one of its spells away. The tier 1 guys each know hundreds or thousands of spells, having access to every spell in every book with their names on it (or in the archivist and artificer's cases, with any name at all).