Tier System for Classes

[Operation Shoestring]

Sorry to doublepost, but i need and answer.  Where would the magewright and shadowcaster fall on this system?

I'm guessing tier 3 for shadowcaster and tier 5 for magewright, but i'm not sure.

[JaronK]

I really don't know.  Shadowcaster is definitely below Tier 2 (as it's definitely not a Sorcerer), but I don't have enough experience to claim to know where it belongs.  I haven't even looked at the Magewright.

JaronK

[jameswilliamogle]

Shadowcasters are Tier 3 in practice, I think (though its debatable between tier 4 and 3).  There's some very powerful tricks in their arsenal.  They absolutely suck at L1-4 though.

[awaken DM golem]

Wilder might be the "worst" 9th level caster class.

Worse than Healer or Battle Sorcerer?  I'm not necessarily debating, but curious if those were included in your comparisons.

Well, I don't know those 2 classes at all.
But if you compare the Wilder to say an Adept (ouch).
The Adept has many more ways of expanding it's spell list, and then UMD the good stuff.
The Wilder gets less "spells" known, higher access without needing UMD, and then a better stat base, to UMD the rest of it.
The Wilder also has to invest feat slots or something to fix enervation.
Don't get me wrong, a Wilder is stronger than an Adept, but you can't compare a Wilder to any other 9th level caster.
Unless you do something like, a Cleric with just 1 Domain, no regular Cleric spells.
You'd still have better class features, and more expansion options.

A poorly built Gish Sorc that still has 9th level casting, is far superior; and that's not good.
Wilder is either strong Tier 4, or weak Tier 3.
Wilder with a PP recharge set-up, is slightly stronger than Warlock, with maybe a smidge more options.

[awaken DM golem]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#addingHitDice

Well, that kinda forks that idea.
FOUR sucky levels of racial class, is equal to 1 level of a Player Class.
Not helpful.
But is helpful, if you are DM-ing.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Don't get me wrong, a Wilder is stronger than an Adept, but you can't compare a Wilder to any other 9th level caster.
Unless you do something like, a Cleric with just 1 Domain, no regular Cleric spells.

You mean a divine champion?

[Takanaki]

This thread shouldn't be allowed to die.

[sonofzeal]

How would you guys rate the Dragonfire Adept, Lurk, Divine Mind, and Ardent?

[jameswilliamogle]

How would you guys rate the Dragonfire Adept, Lurk, Divine Mind, and Ardent?

Quarter pounder with cheese, kiddie fries, happy meal, and 10 piece chicken mcnugget combo meal.

[Lycanthromancer]

So, addictive, fattening (even the salads sans dressing), threatening to one's health, and overall, seriously crappy crap?

McDonald's sucks ass.

[Kuroimaken]

The lurk is pretty much a Rogue on steroids, which is to say "not very good". He has potential, but sadly his augments take a long while to pan out, his PPs are crappy and his power selections aren't exactly cheesetastic.

[InnaBinder]

The lurk is pretty much a Rogue on steroids, which is to say "not very good". He has potential, but sadly his augments take a long while to pan out, his PPs are crappy and his power selections aren't exactly cheesetastic.

Hmm.  I get the impression that the Lurk isn't nearly as useful as a Rogue; this implies the inverse is true.

[Kuroimaken]

The lurk is pretty much a Rogue on steroids, which is to say "not very good". He has potential, but sadly his augments take a long while to pan out, his PPs are crappy and his power selections aren't exactly cheesetastic.

Hmm.  I get the impression that the Lurk isn't nearly as useful as a Rogue; this implies the inverse is true.

From my experience with the Lurk, I'd still have to say he has more uses. For one thing, he can actually FORCE the conditions of his sneak attack without depending on anything but his class features. Combat-wise this puts him a bit above the Rogue.

Admittedly though, the Lurk is all over the place. A more accurate definition would be, if the Psywar is a Fighter with Psionics, then the Lurk is a Rogue with Psionics.

[JaronK]

Amusingly enough, I'm using a leveling system right now based on the tier system, but since a bunch of my PCs were recently saved from kobolds by worshiping a dragon, they want to use the Dragonfire Adept... and of course I don't know its power level.  Ugh.

For the record, the system is that you start with 6 levels of commoner.  Every time you level up (basically every other game session) you can swap a commoner level for a level of expert, warrior, or aristocrat.  After you're done doing that, you can start swapping in the Tier 5 classes (and CW Samurai, if you want).  Then you can start swapping in Tier 4s, and so on.

JaronK

[InnaBinder]

Amusingly enough, I'm using a leveling system right now based on the tier system, but since a bunch of my PCs were recently saved from kobolds by worshiping a dragon, they want to use the Dragonfire Adept... and of course I don't know its power level.  Ugh.

For the record, the system is that you start with 6 levels of commoner.  Every time you level up (basically every other game session) you can swap a commoner level for a level of expert, warrior, or aristocrat.  After you're done doing that, you can start swapping in the Tier 5 classes (and CW Samurai, if you want).  Then you can start swapping in Tier 4s, and so on.

JaronK

Warning!  Blatantly Opinionated comment to follow:  Dragonfire Adept is a Warlock, almost exactly, with slightly different invocations that many (including Thinblade's handbook) advocate combining into a single list.  It's within Warlock's Tier, maybe half a tick higher because it is every so slightly easier to hit multiples with the DfA's EB iteration.

[jameswilliamogle]

I agree w/ that completely.

Ardent on its own isn't strong at all, but the various PrCs and unique power choice availability makes it much nicer as a jump-off class.  I have no idea how it really runs...

[sonofzeal]

Warning!  Blatantly Opinionated comment to follow:  Dragonfire Adept is a Warlock, almost exactly, with slightly different invocations that many (including Thinblade's handbook) advocate combining into a single list.  It's within Warlock's Tier, maybe half a tick higher because it is every so slightly easier to hit multiples with the DfA's EB iteration.

I'd say DFA is superior.  Warlocks have few tricks comparable to Entangling Exhalation, and Fivefold Bread is just awesome.  Also, Dragonblooded is quite useful.  That said, I'm not sure it all raises them up a tier... but I would say it pushes the bounds.

[JaronK]

Well, I'll slap it into Tier 4 for my campaign then, and see what happens.

Interestingly enough, this level system is a great field test for the system, since everyone is always on the same tier.

JaronK

[sonofzeal]

Well, I'll slap it into Tier 4 for my campaign then, and see what happens.

Interestingly enough, this level system is a great field test for the system, since everyone is always on the same tier.

JaronK

What are you going to do on the more sparsely-populated tiers?  I know that, given some Tier 3 builds, gradually shifting to Tier 2 would feel like a downgrade.  There's not really a Tier 2 version of a Swordsage, or Factotum.  And while a Sorc6 might be better than a Beguiler6 (and even that's arguable), a Sorc3/Beguiler3 is almost certainly way below either.  Or am I missing anything?

[JaronK]

The only thing you're missing (because I hadn't mentioned it) is that I'm factoring in some gestalt along the way, so by the time they're upgrading from Tier 3, they'll actually have two Tier 3s gestalted and be upgrading to a Tier 2//3.  Also, I'm considering allowing them to keep their casting from one class until the majority of levels have switched, so a Beguiler 3/Sorcerer 3 would have the casting of a Beguiler 3 (and only that) until they hit Beguiler 2/Sorc 4, at which point all levels would switch to Sorcerer.  Something like that, not sure. 

That said, I kinda doubt the campaign's going to even get that far, as I wasn't really planning to go above Tier 3 ever.

Current plan is NPCs (other than adepts)->Tier 5s->Tier 4s->Tier 4//NPCs->Tier 4s//Tier 5s->Tier 4s//Tier 4s->Tier 3s//Tier 4s->Tier 3s//Tier 3s.  That's already 42 level ups, and I'm sure the game will be complete by then.

JaronK