Author Topic: Tier System for Classes  (Read 616248 times)

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NineInchNall

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #20 on: July 07, 2008, 10:43:10 PM »
Well, I was kind of taking into account the fact that Monks aren't proficient with unarmed strikes ...  Which is kinda, um, ... Yeah.

JaronK

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #21 on: July 07, 2008, 11:46:33 PM »
Heh, yeah, but even though technically that's RAW, it's a known error, so I don't take that into account.

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #22 on: July 08, 2008, 12:09:28 AM »
Monks are pretty good if you can multiclass to get the pounce ability and 16 BAB: monk11/warmind9, wildshape ranger9/monk11, catfolk monk11/x8.

Basically monk is a 2, 6,  or 11 level class.

dman11235

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #23 on: July 08, 2008, 12:16:10 AM »
No, it's a 2, 3, or 6 level class.  A couple things require Still Mind, you see.  No 11!  Never!
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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #24 on: July 08, 2008, 01:14:44 AM »
You don't think greater flurry is worth it? That 6 attacks a round with no penalties if you can get 16 BAB and 10 attacks a round hasted, with the twf feats, and with 16 BAB. And that's not even factoring in polymorph abuse.

dman11235

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #25 on: July 08, 2008, 01:18:00 AM »
I think it's not as worth it as other things, like psychic warrior manifesting, Fist of the Forest, etc.  It's nice, yeah, but not worth five whole levels.
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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #26 on: July 08, 2008, 01:49:57 AM »
You don't think greater flurry is worth it? That 6 attacks a round with no penalties if you can get 16 BAB and 10 attacks a round hasted, with the twf feats, and with 16 BAB. And that's not even factoring in polymorph abuse.

Greater flurry is worth it if you're a Shou Disciple, but that's still Monk 6/Shou Disciple 5.  Combat wise it's the same as Monk 11 except you have full BAB and can flurry with any weapon, plus you have higher AC.  So yeah, Monk is 6 levels long.

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #27 on: July 08, 2008, 03:12:09 AM »
All this talk of flurry and no mention of Tashalatora* yet? That's like having ice cream with sprinkles and a cherry flavoured nuke on top.

*feat from Eberron: Secrets of Sarlona - it allows you to stack monk and one psionic class for flurry among other things
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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #28 on: July 08, 2008, 06:31:45 AM »
That's a nice classification, but I doubt it would fulfill the original purpose. If I get you right, your problem is DMs saying Class X beats Class Y or class Z is overpowered when this simply isn't true. Well, those DMs will take a look at your chart and say "Nah. Disbelieve." Even more so if they got the hint from a player from said "overpowered" class. Remove Blindness does not exist IRL, unfortunately.

Now I'd like to bicker around a bit (that's my favorite part) and tell you the changes I would make to your list. Only listing the changes; if something isn't listed, then I agree with you.

Tier 1
- Erudite: Remove the Psion's limited power selection, you've got the Erudite, and another Tier 1, easily rivaling with Wizards.

Tier 2:
- Swordsage. The class is the definition of flexibility and one of the best melee classes around, plus it gets exclusive access to Seeting Sun and Shadow Hand and their array of out-of-combat abilities. It's an awesome dip as well, and opens the way to Master of Nine and its Dual Stance class feature. For all those reasons, it would deserve Tier 2.
- Crusader: Same as above. THE best melee class around. A tank that can heal itself is crazy enough, a tank with a reach weapon, Thicket of Blades and a 3-level dip in Knight is absolutely awesome.
- Beguiler: It's basically a sorcerer on steroids. Same spells per day as the sorcerer, but Int-based, which is infinitely more useful (even more so with 6 skill points), knowns automatically all spells from his level (and gets new spells from new sourcebooks), and has interesting class abilities, which the sorcerer doesn't.

Tier 3:
- Favored Soul. MAD, divine spells (less flexible that arcane spells), and not that useful class abilities. Interesting abilities come too late to be really worth it and prevent you from multiclassing or going PrC. No Turn undead either.
- Sorcerer: Sure, 9th level casting. No skills, no class abilities, no durability, very limited spell selection, CHA-based (the worst attribute there is). Due to the limited spell selection, you have to choose a way, meaning they are made to be either one-trick ponies or blunt swiss army knives with half the tools missing. Not worth a Tier 2 IMO.
- Psychic Warrior: the PW's powers are extremely good and make up for the slightly lower BAB. Being Wisdom-based, PW's generally have a good Will save (the frontliner's usual weakness) and profitate from a lot of dips such as Swordsage. With Zen archery they make very good archers as well.
- Paladin (I think you forgot this one): Battle Blessing make them viable again up to level 20, Mount feats are great, and they've got a very cute spell selection and high viability with their high HP and saves. Plus they can access Fist of Raziel.
- Knight: The mother of tanks before ToB came out, and still a very viable class afterwards. Good Will save and D12 for high viability, armor mastery, Bulwark of Defense, Impetuous Endurance, and the ability to force foes into melee. Plain good.
- Dragonfire Adept (didn't see that one either): this class needs only one attribute, Constitution. It's not a great damage dealer, but it's an excellent Swiss army knife class with high durability and battlefield control. Kinda like a much better warlock.

Tier 4:
- Dragon Shaman (you forgot this one too): Nice mechanics, but generally too weak to do something by itself. A fluff marshall, more or less.
- Fighter: Why are they so frowned upon? They get a huge load of feats for tactical flexibility, and if they can't compete with a barbarian for damage output, at least they've got more options than "Pounce, Power attack, Shock trooper" (*yawns*). Weapon Mastery is too good to forget and makes up for Rage, Weapon Supremacy is the answer to Swallow Whole. Clearly, no competition for a Tier 1 or 2, but definitely not as bad as they're pictured.
- Wu Jen/Shugenja: everything they do, regular Sorcerers do better. Period. They only deserve Tier 4 because of 9th level casting, otherwise they would be Tier 5, because they just suck.

Tier 5:
- Wilder: Everything they do, other classes do better. Sure, they get 9th level powers... with the game's most limited power selection. Wild Surge is a trap, and they're CHA-based. In a nutshell, poor manifesters, ridiculous combatants, poor skills, sucky class abilities. They're only worth the 2-level dip for Elude Touch.

Finally, if you consider only the base class, sure, Soulknife's a Tier 5. But if you consider Prestige Classes, have a look at Soulbow. Even a 1-level dip is worth it, because of the "WIS to damage" part. Pump up Wis, take Zen Archery, unleash hell. Plus you'll have a handsome Will save, and with a 2-level dip into Swordsage, an awesome AC. Illumine Soul is a good PrC as well, with easy requirements, and the level 4 ability is a lifesaver. Plus it boosts your low Fort save. With those classes in play, SK becomes Tier 4.

Still unsere about the Divine Mind (5?), Ardent (3? 4?), Lurk (4?), Spirit Shaman (3? 4?). Swift Hunter builds (Scout/Rangers with Swift hunter feat) deserve Tier 3 or maybe even 2, but we're not talking multiclassing, sadly. I won't comment Incarnum or Truenaming, don't have the books.

My 2 cents...

JaronK

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #29 on: July 08, 2008, 07:13:39 AM »
That's a nice classification, but I doubt it would fulfill the original purpose. If I get you right, your problem is DMs saying Class X beats Class Y or class Z is overpowered when this simply isn't true. Well, those DMs will take a look at your chart and say "Nah. Disbelieve." Even more so if they got the hint from a player from said "overpowered" class. Remove Blindness does not exist IRL, unfortunately.

Hey, I can hope.  It's also handy if a player is saying "my class is underpowered, you need to fix it!"  A DM can look here and see how true that is.

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Now I'd like to bicker around a bit (that's my favorite part) and tell you the changes I would make to your list. Only listing the changes; if something isn't listed, then I agree with you.

In advance, thank you for your input.  I'm certainly listening, even if I disagree.

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Tier 1
- Erudite: Remove the Psion's limited power selection, you've got the Erudite, and another Tier 1, easily rivaling with Wizards.

Can't confirm or deny, as I'm unfamiliar with psionics, but the thing about the Big 5 Tier 1 classes is that they all gain new powers with every book that's released (since virtually all of them give them new spells).  That's not true of the Erudite, unless they have some ability to cast arcane spells (which I won't discount without seeing the class!).

Quote
Tier 2:
- Swordsage. The class is the definition of flexibility and one of the best melee classes around, plus it gets exclusive access to Seeting Sun and Shadow Hand and their array of out-of-combat abilities. It's an awesome dip as well, and opens the way to Master of Nine and its Dual Stance class feature. For all those reasons, it would deserve Tier 2.

Tier 2 has world shattering game breaking power.  Swordsages are a great class, but they can't create new planes of existance made entirely out of valuable materials with flowing time 10,000 combined with the timeless trait to let them retreat and rest whenever they want (Genesis) or gain endless wealth easily (Fabricate + Wall of Iron, or purchased cows + Flesh to Salt) or any of those other truly game breaking stunts that a Sorcerer can pull off.  So no, they're not Tier 2.  A strong class?  Certainly.  But not game breaking.  Swordsages have great power, but they can't nuke a country sized area with a first level spell like a well built Sorcerer can.

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- Crusader: Same as above. THE best melee class around. A tank that can heal itself is crazy enough, a tank with a reach weapon, Thicket of Blades and a 3-level dip in Knight is absolutely awesome.

Another strong class, but again nothing game breaking.  They're the best tanks around (at least as long as the Tier 1 boys aren't deciding to be jerks about it) but they can't shatter the world, so not Tier 2.  Remember, Tier 2 means they have the raw power of the Tier 1 classes, but don't have the flexibility to always apply that power efficiently.

Quote
- Beguiler: It's basically a sorcerer on steroids. Same spells per day as the sorcerer, but Int-based, which is infinitely more useful (even more so with 6 skill points), knowns automatically all spells from his level (and gets new spells from new sourcebooks), and has interesting class abilities, which the sorcerer doesn't.

But the bit one is that the Sorcerer has the serious gamebreaker spells like Genesis and PAO and Alter Self and Shrink Item and Explosive Runes.   Beguilers have nothing like that.  Again, Beguilers aren't game breakingly powerful.  I love them as a class, but they're not up this high.

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Tier 3:
- Favored Soul. MAD, divine spells (less flexible that arcane spells), and not that useful class abilities. Interesting abilities come too late to be really worth it and prevent you from multiclassing or going PrC. No Turn undead either.

Turn undead is easily obtained (Sacred Exorcist dip).  And while they're not Cleric level, they can still cast Miracle and Gate and Animate Dead and who knows what else.  These guys really can be game breakers with the right spell selection.  That's why they're Tier 2.

Quote
- Sorcerer: Sure, 9th level casting. No skills, no class abilities, no durability, very limited spell selection, CHA-based (the worst attribute there is). Due to the limited spell selection, you have to choose a way, meaning they are made to be either one-trick ponies or blunt swiss army knives with half the tools missing. Not worth a Tier 2 IMO.

I've listed a few possible game breakers already, but here's a few more, all available to Sorcerers:

Unstoppable Assassin:  Decide what enemy is annoying you.  Maybe it's an Elder Dragon.  Maybe it's some Balor.  Maybe it's the king.  Whatever.  Cast Mindrape on a commoner and make them think they love said target.  Now cast Love's Pain over and over until the target is dead.  The target has no save, no SR, doesn't know where it's coming from, and there's no range limitation.  Target dies.  Required Spells Known:  Mindrape, Love's Pain (you might be able to get away with a lower level spell than Mindrape, ask your DM).  Of course, you can use scrolls if they're available.

Neigh Invincibility:  First, get a decent sized chunk of Obdurium (from Stronghold Builder's Guide, enough obdurium should be about 4kgp).  Now, cast Fabricate and shape it however you want to look (I suggest a four armed version of yourself).  Now cast Invisibility on the nifty statue you just made, followed by Permanency (scrolls work if you lack the spells).  Now cast Hardness (if you can get any temporary boosts to your caster level, use them now) and follow it up with Augment Object.  Next, cast a spell that makes you count as undead (there are two in the Spell Compendium) and then follow it with Haunt Shift.  Note you must have 8HD or less for Haunt Shift to work, so pick up some Holy/Unholy arrows if necessary to lower your HD and use a scroll.  Congratulations, as per the wording of Hauntings (read the rules carefully, it's confusing), your statue is now your body which you can control just fine.  Walk around in it, get used to the near immortality, because with your hardness HP damage can't touch you.  If you had a caster level of 12 when you cast the Hardness, your body's hardness is now 72... read over the rules for damaging objects and note how many things you either ignore or heavily reduce damage from.  Also, you're permanently invisible.  Whee!  Watch out for Martial Adepts with stone dragon manuevers though!

You get the idea.  Now, as a Sorcerer you have to dedicate a lot of resources to pull off game breakers like this, whereas as a Wizard it's easy, but that's why Sorcerers are a Tier below Wizards.  But ability to, by RAW, pull off nonsense like that is a big reason why Sorcerers are a Tier above Swordsages and the like.  Swordsages are a great class, but they don't turn into golems or create new planes of existance or assassinate people from across planar boundries with no save.

Quote
- Psychic Warrior: the PW's powers are extremely good and make up for the slightly lower BAB. Being Wisdom-based, PW's generally have a good Will save (the frontliner's usual weakness) and profitate from a lot of dips such as Swordsage. With Zen archery they make very good archers as well.

I'm just not sure they belong up there with the martial adepts, and I firmly believe martial adepts are Tier 3, which is why I've got the PW down on Tier 4.

Quote
- Paladin (I think you forgot this one): Battle Blessing make them viable again up to level 20, Mount feats are great, and they've got a very cute spell selection and high viability with their high HP and saves. Plus they can access Fist of Raziel.

I didn't forget it, I'm just less familiar with them.  But I've got one in our party, and I'm not seeing them as being on the level of Dread Necromancers and the like.

Quote
- Knight: The mother of tanks before ToB came out, and still a very viable class afterwards. Good Will save and D12 for high viability, armor mastery, Bulwark of Defense, Impetuous Endurance, and the ability to force foes into melee. Plain good.

See my comments on Paladins (though I don't have one in the party).  Knights rarely do things like summon armies of the dead.

Quote
- Dragonfire Adept (didn't see that one either): this class needs only one attribute, Constitution. It's not a great damage dealer, but it's an excellent Swiss army knife class with high durability and battlefield control. Kinda like a much better warlock.

Again, unfamiliar.

Quote
Tier 4:
- Dragon Shaman (you forgot this one too): Nice mechanics, but generally too weak to do something by itself. A fluff marshall, more or less.

Don't know the class, that's why it's not there.   But your comments are taken under advisement.  If enough people agree on their position, I'll put them in in itallics.

Quote
- Fighter: Why are they so frowned upon? They get a huge load of feats for tactical flexibility, and if they can't compete with a barbarian for damage output, at least they've got more options than "Pounce, Power attack, Shock trooper" (*yawns*). Weapon Mastery is too good to forget and makes up for Rage, Weapon Supremacy is the answer to Swallow Whole. Clearly, no competition for a Tier 1 or 2, but definitely not as bad as they're pictured.

They're down in 4 because while the class as a whole is flexible, any given build is not.  Most likely strong Fighter builds won't have much more than Pounce Power Attack Shock Trooper really... it's just some might have Improved Trip Karmic Strike or something instead.  Their lower damage means they don't compete with Barbarians as well as one might hope.  Barbarians are on the low end of Tier 4, and Fighters are on the high end of Tier 5, so it's a close one, but I just don't see Fighters doing well compared to a lot of the other Tier 4s (such as the Rogue with his diplomacy and UMD)

[qutoe]- Wu Jen/Shugenja: everything they do, regular Sorcerers do better. Period. They only deserve Tier 4 because of 9th level casting, otherwise they would be Tier 5, because they just suck.[/quote]

T4 seems low for a 9th level caster that can select their spells, but I'm not too familiar with them, so maybe they're like Healers in that respect.

Quote
Tier 5:
- Wilder: Everything they do, other classes do better. Sure, they get 9th level powers... with the game's most limited power selection. Wild Surge is a trap, and they're CHA-based. In a nutshell, poor manifesters, ridiculous combatants, poor skills, sucky class abilities. They're only worth the 2-level dip for Elude Touch.

I'll consider it, but again, don't know the class.

Quote
Finally, if you consider only the base class, sure, Soulknife's a Tier 5. But if you consider Prestige Classes, have a look at Soulbow. Even a 1-level dip is worth it, because of the "WIS to damage" part. Pump up Wis, take Zen Archery, unleash hell. Plus you'll have a handsome Will save, and with a 2-level dip into Swordsage, an awesome AC. Illumine Soul is a good PrC as well, with easy requirements, and the level 4 ability is a lifesaver. Plus it boosts your low Fort save. With those classes in play, SK becomes Tier 4.

Yeah, but as far as I can see it's the Soulbow that's powerful, not the Soulknife.  That's why the Soulknife that's down near the botoom.  I mean, let's face it, the Monk is a great start for a lot of builds too but as an overall class it's not going to be above Tier 5.

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Still unsere about the Divine Mind (5?), Ardent (3? 4?), Lurk (4?), Spirit Shaman (3? 4?).

Me either, not enough experience at all.

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Swift Hunter builds (Scout/Rangers with Swift hunter feat) deserve Tier 3 or maybe even 2, but we're not talking multiclassing,

Not featured here.

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My 2 cents...

Thank you, they're appreciated.

JaronK

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #30 on: July 09, 2008, 03:40:59 PM »
It's nice to see this here.  I also really like the houserule section in post 2.

It's nice for players to understand this a bit if they're playing in someone else's game.  Knowing where different characters fall in power level can help to make it enjoyable for everyone else.  I've recently started playing in a two person game.  I'm playing a conjurer, and the other player (very new to D&D) is playing a hexblade.  I knew his decision going in, so I took it upon myself to make something that would boost him, and allow him to have more fun.

I frequently do things like enlarge him, and try to keep monsters at bay with things like Color Spray and Grease.  He seems to be enjoying it.
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JaronK

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #31 on: July 09, 2008, 04:32:30 PM »
Awesome, that's how it should work.

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #32 on: July 09, 2008, 05:24:25 PM »
While I enjoy the guide, the difference of player styles and knowledge can make it a bit misleading.  In a party consisting of a blaster wizard and a first aid kit cleric, a fighter or barbarian can certainly CAN be amazing even at mid-high levels and make the cleric and wizard feel inadequate.  If everyone in the group is already knowledgeable enough to play the characters to their full potential, this guide is no longer necessary. 

This i think is the fatal flaw here, the less experienced the reader, the less accurate this guide is and the more experienced the player the less necessary this guide is.
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JaronK

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #33 on: July 09, 2008, 05:35:50 PM »
Well again, this assumes even levels of skill and optimization, and says straight up that if you play with much lower optimization you could drop one or more tiers.  If you're playing a purely first aid Cleric or a blaster Wizard, that's exactly what happens.

However, if everyone plays their classes at the same level of skill and optimization, the guide works fine.  For example, if you're playing a first aid Cleric next to a blaster Wizard and a sword and board Fighter, the tier system is maintained.

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #34 on: July 09, 2008, 09:58:25 PM »
Well I just read up on Spirit Shamans...Their realy good...

to summerize their abilities they cast spells from the druid spell list and every day pick a few spells in which they can spontaneously cast that day (so they can switch spells every day and cast them spontaneously).  They have a lot of abilities focused around incorpreal critters and an ability called censure spirits which works alot like the destroy undead alternate class feature for clerics but on a much larger spectrum of creactures, and they get an incorpreal spirit guide which acts similarly to a psi crystal and may concentrate on your spells for you.

Their definatly tier 2, if a dm alows them to use censure spirits to fuel a DMM like feat they very well might be tier 1.

Shujengas...well their kinda like shadow casters in the idea that their gimped sorrcerers.  They do remind me of benders from avatar alot . I'd give them a tier 3, but someone who has a much better concept of spells than I should probably judge them instead of me.

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #35 on: July 09, 2008, 11:10:52 PM »
Having played extensively with Shugenja (at least until 3.5 came out; but to be frank, they haven't changed any from 3.0 anyway), here are my ideas for their tiers. One thing of significant note is that your order's element does NOT have to match your chosen element, and some of the order spells are not normally available to Shugenja to choose, so order selection plays a big part. You still cannot select spells from an element opposed to your own, however. Also, though your element dictates half the spells you know, some elements have quite worthy spells on their lists. I will consider each Shugenja based on their favored element.

Fire Shugenja: This guy is a blaster, pure and simple. Over 80% of his spell list is intended to deal damage, either over an area or individually. No access to save-or-dies (except for Implosion), has a few double threats and save-or-suck spells, and very few boosts. Not good with battlefield control because pretty much none of his spells last long -- but if it's about dealing damage, this is your guy. Tier 3, because they can do their jobs well and dabble in other things besides.

Water Shugenja: By contrast, the Water Shugenja is a healer. He has access to pretty much every healing spell on the PHB (including True Ressurrection). The downside being, of course, that their offensive power is incredibly limited. No boosts, but they get access to some good early level battlefield control effects such as Obscuring Mist. On mid to late levels, they can gain access to some offensive effects, and they have the odd divination spell thrown in here and there. Weirdest noteworthy point: they gain access to Righteous Might for some bizarre reason, but no other boosts besides. Also gains access to Contingency. Tier 3, because they can do their job decently, and then add a bit of battlefield control to the mix.

Air Shugenja: The biggest problem Illusionist fans will have with this guy is that he has no access to Shadow Evocation and Shadow Conjuration. This can be detractive to his role as an Illusionist, as he has to rely on spells from other elements to have any effect on the battlefield when his opponents are immune to illusions. No shadow spells of any kind. Also has access to a few defensive buffs, a couple of early-level debuffs (such as Color Spray), and lots of transportation spells, mainly Teleport. No Dimension Door. He also has a few divinations thrown in, but nothing to go crazy about. Overall, tier 4. This guy could really use some focus.

Earth Shugenja: These guys are... odd. Earth Shugenja focus mostly on buffs and protection (and the occasional save or suck), right up to the point where they gain 6th-level spells. Then they start throwing crap into the fan and getting offensive with stuff like Disintegrate, Flesh to Stone and Earthquake. Overall, their buffs are nothing to sneeze at, particularly at low levels, when that Magic Weapon spell can really save your sorry rear. Despite this, they're actually pretty decent, considering what they give up in exchange, and though they lack more defensive options at later levels, they make for decent support characters. No War Weavers or Bards by any means -- but not Healers, either. Tier 4, because they lack options.
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JaronK

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #36 on: July 09, 2008, 11:27:01 PM »
Kuroimaken:   So, I'm guessing that's sort of standard behavior for those element types.  What would you say is the powered up version?  As in, if you were optimizing that class to be really strong, what would you do, and how would it look, especially compared to an equally optimized similar class? 

Also, how would you rate the Fire Shugenja compared to a Warmage, and the Air Shugenja to a Beguiler?  Not really sure if there's easy direct comparisons to other classes though.

JaronK

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #37 on: July 09, 2008, 11:32:59 PM »
Tooling around with the beguiler, I believe that it could easily be tier 2. It has a fairly good spell list, but what on that list is versatility spells. The class itself is versatile. It can find a way to do nearly anything without much work. In my current group I declined taking feats that would overpower the other players (contains cleric, though unoptimized at the least, a sorcerer, a knight, and a paladin) and with some work could probably have unleashed total hell on this game world.
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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #38 on: July 10, 2008, 01:49:05 AM »
Oh, Beguilers are great, but again, Tier 2 is still world shattering power levels.  Beguilers don't make their own planes of existance (at least not without Shadowcraft Mage assistance, but that's the power of the Shadowcraft Mage PrC, not the Beguiler) or assassinate people across planar boundries with no save.

I think in most games, Beguilers will end up at least as powerful as Sorcerers because most DMs simply won't allow Sorcerers to do what by RAW they're allowed to do.  But again, this list is before the house rules come out, so that's why Beguilers are on a lower tier.

My current group was, until recently, Dread Necromancer, Swordsage, Ninja (a homebrew Tier 3 class), Beguiler, Paladin of Tyranny/Hexblade.  It was a relatively balanced group (though the PoT/H was clearly starting to fall behind), and the Beguiler didn't outshine anyone and yet was clearly strong and effective and all that.  Of course, the Beguiler recently managed to get himself killed rather foolishly (note: do not dismount and charge into a bunch of enemies when you're a Beguiler!), but I think he was trying to die, because he wanted to be a more bashy class.  That's okay, I'm saving his corpse until I can cast Create Undead.

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #39 on: July 10, 2008, 05:53:22 AM »
Interesting listing, though measuring something from levels 1-20 is dangerous work, since PrC's throw everything around.  Still, a cool idea.  Kudos :)