Author Topic: Tier System for Classes  (Read 616235 times)

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Midnight_v

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #100 on: July 16, 2008, 12:11:44 PM »
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Originally Posted by Midnight_v 
*Ahem* Did you catch my post about the Psychic warrior?
I believe it should be tier 3 not tier 4, anyone care to discuss?
I know JaronK is busy defending the system itself and all, which I suppose if you'r defending the existance of the system it take precedence over any changes in the system but... I was hoping we might get that sorted.
-M

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Well, I've only got it written in there from the advice of others (that's why it's in itallics) so I can't place it very accurately. Now, it's certainly optimizable (King of Smack being an obvious example) but then again so are a lot of classes... the question comes down to whether it's Warblade/Crusader/Swordsage level, or is it lower than that. I suspect it's closer to Tier 4, but again, I can't say for certain.

JaronK

I'm so glad you moved this here away from all that b.s. of the other forum. K. I was going to argue that the Psiwar > bard, however I see from your discussion with squirrel that you have a high opinion of them.
Though I didn't realize you were counting prestige classes in you determination of you rankings. So I thought the Bard as Sublime in that argument was poor form but since you are including prcs available *shrug* k.
Ultimately
I've noticed also that you've not changed any of the tiers based on peoples suggestions.
So I was wondering what kind of proof I could provide that Psiwar = Bard Warblade Crusader.
I submited the king of smack and some others but what proofs do you need to express it further?

How about this. The fact that it gets access to Metamorphosis and Metamorphic transfer, at all? Which yeah is a part of the smack build but expanded knowledge its so relavent to the classes power level.
My real question is what are your criteria for an appeal of a tier?

I'd love to show the power level is 3 but I'm not sure which direction to go. Please direct?
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dman11235

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #101 on: July 16, 2008, 02:05:10 PM »
Specific builds won't do it.  General, average optimization will.

Ask yourself, are you good with psywars?  Does that lead you to believe that they should be tier 3?  If so, they should be tier 4.  You are going to artificially inflate the status of classes that you are good with.  Me?  My monks are tier 3, easy.  But that doesn't make the class tier 3, the class is still tier 5.  You must lower the classes you are good with and that you like, to account for a better understanding of the class.

I say that right Jaron?

Psywars I believe are high tier 4, because they do have some versatility, but sometimes don't have the right tool for the job.
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Kuroimaken

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #102 on: July 16, 2008, 03:26:33 PM »
Hmmm, if we're talking about regular Bard20 I'm inclined to agree they can be hard to optimize. Off the top of my head, two potential ideas pop out: Inspire Courage optimization and Dragonfire Inspiration cheese. Both are considered to be good or at least viable -- +12 to hit and damage or +Xd6 per hit is nothing to sneeze at, I believe. On an "average" party, both of those can make a pretty big difference. Bards can also cover the party face role, have UMD, Hide and Move Silently as class skills, and can even dish out some illusions if need be. Granted that they can't necessarily be good at ALL of those, but they have the potential for all of them.

I'd classify the Bard as a Tier 3. Though they don't have the raw damage potential of many other classes, they can fill a lot of roles quite decently.
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JaronK

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #103 on: July 16, 2008, 04:57:01 PM »
i refuse to believe you can buy a magic item worth 200kgp and not buy 10kgp worth of non-magical alchemical potions. 

Who said anything about being able to buy a 200kgp item whenever you wanted either?  The issue is not what you want to buy... it's how much and how reliable your source has to be.

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Also, 1 casting of major creation won't make the contents and the flask, but it could make the contents.  Or two castings for contents + flask.  And every time I say a spell I could just as easily mean wand or staff of it, as the potion-throwing rogue really doesn't have much to spend his wealth on - once you've got a ring of greater blinking, a handy haversack or two, and a dex+6 item, you're just grabbing general utility items.

First off, you're assuming that potions are vegetable matter, minerals, stone, or metal.  I'm not actually sure that's the case.  If there's any kind of animal parts in there or something, then Major Creation can't make it.  Second, you'd be creating a large chunk of the stuff even if it is legal, so you'd need perhaps a portable hole to create it in.  Third, you now have to fill your hundreds of vials of it... not a very safe operation, nor very fast, and you're doing this on the fly in a dungeon.   You're going to need a small labor force to do this.  I mean really... think this through.

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As to the number per combat, at some point all the opposition is dead and you're done.  High level combats also have an average duration of 1 round. 

Because the Wizard takes someone out with a Save or Die, generally.

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Finally, what's with this 'that's not how it works in your experience' nonsense?  There's lots of things we know are true in the rules that never work that way in practice.  Like chain-binding efreets and having them wish for rings of infinite wishes for you, or candle of invocation cheese, or 150 caster level Blasphemy out of a staff to kill a god.  Have you seriously ever seen any of that?  And that's just core.

Not specifically effrettis per se, but binding other critters for fun effects... absolutely.  Like binding Midguard Dwarfs, killing them, raising them, and getting item crafters.  Very handy on my Dread Necromancer.  But yes, in my experience the whole potion throwing Rogue thing has a lot of details that usually get missed, such as the fact that Major Creation probably can't make it (notice the spell seems to indicate that you're making an item of a single material... a hemp rope or a wooden ladder, so not a mix of vegetable and mineral matter) or things like that.

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  A lot of the things you are assuming are true by your categorization of the Tier 1 classes are stuff that I doubt most people have ever experienced in a game because they were thought exercises dreamed up on CO or elsewhere.  Stop holding a double standard where you only accept 'typical game' conditions for one class and 'pure RAW' for another.

It's not about typical games here, it's about RAW.  And by RAW, your potion throwing Rogue requires an amazing amount of DM support.  That Efretti Planar Binding nonsense won't fly in most games, but only because the DM will nerf it... if you play by RAW it would work every time.  With the potion Rogue, it's not about DMs nerfing it... it's about needing the DM to specifically support your operation, specifically needing favorable rulings on Major Creation, having a Wizard or Sorcerer in the party (not always a given, I don't have one the game I'm currently in), having a bunch of slave labor to fill your vials fast enough, and so on.   Basically, this system is designed to be useful for judging power level in campaigns, with the only assumption being that the campaign is played entirely by RAW (which is rarely the case, but again, this is a foundation).  And that's one of the major Rogue weaknesses... they need the DM to be giving them a campaign where their access to resources is uninterupted so they can make good use of UMD and things like your potion throwing.  That's not always going to be the case.

And I'm saying this as someone who generally does in fact play Rogue like characters.

JaronK

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #104 on: July 16, 2008, 05:17:30 PM »
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Also, 1 casting of major creation won't make the contents and the flask, but it could make the contents.  Or two castings for contents + flask.  And every time I say a spell I could just as easily mean wand or staff of it, as the potion-throwing rogue really doesn't have much to spend his wealth on - once you've got a ring of greater blinking, a handy haversack or two, and a dex+6 item, you're just grabbing general utility items.

First off, you're assuming that potions are vegetable matter, minerals, stone, or metal.  I'm not actually sure that's the case.  If there's any kind of animal parts in there or something, then Major Creation can't make it.  Second, you'd be creating a large chunk of the stuff even if it is legal, so you'd need perhaps a portable hole to create it in.  Third, you now have to fill your hundreds of vials of it... not a very safe operation, nor very fast, and you're doing this on the fly in a dungeon.   You're going to need a small labor force to do this.  I mean really... think this through.

So, first you major create a glass apparatus which has a large vat, a series of tubes, each dangling flasks with a weak connection to the tube (such that you can score and break it off easily).  Next you major create say acid in the vat, it flows down into the flasks, you score and break the flasks off.  This is seriously nothing a little creativity can't solve (generally the case with major creation).

Alchemical fire is the hardest, because of what it is.

As to the nature of the materials:
Acid - there are lots of acids which are not from animals.  This is not a problem.  In fact, I can't think of a single acid unique to animals which would deal damage, because acids used by animals are weak.  Concentrated HF is probably what we're talking about, which is a really nasty acid, and easily produced by major creation.  (Alternately, H2SO4 could work, also produceable by major creation, not as dangerous to work with).

Alchemical Fire is certainly Phosphorus in some form.  The degree to which this form is a liquid affects the ease with which you could major create some useable potions thereof on the fly.  Of course, that someone is producing them somewhere in the world implies this stuff isn't as impossible to work with as pure phosphorus.  Note that phosphorus is also not an animal product.

I can't speak to alchemical frost/electricity because I don't have a good feel for what they are.  I'd have to guess alchemical frost is a substance that evaporates so quickly it chills you, which means its a liquid and thus works easily in the above set up.  You will have to stopper said flasks quickly however, probably by melting them shut rather than scoring and breaking off (actually, melting shut is a great idea except in the case of phosporus - flames + phosphorus = bad idea).

I mean, yes, major creation requires us to know something about these substances.  But anyone familiar with some basic chemistry can arrive at the only plausible candidates.
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JaronK

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #105 on: July 16, 2008, 05:38:05 PM »
Specific builds won't do it.  General, average optimization will.

Ask yourself, are you good with psywars?  Does that lead you to believe that they should be tier 3?  If so, they should be tier 4.  You are going to artificially inflate the status of classes that you are good with.  Me?  My monks are tier 3, easy.  But that doesn't make the class tier 3, the class is still tier 5.  You must lower the classes you are good with and that you like, to account for a better understanding of the class.

I say that right Jaron?

Exactly correct.

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Psywars I believe are high tier 4, because they do have some versatility, but sometimes don't have the right tool for the job.

That's my inclination.  Also, I'm actually researching the PsiWar now because of Midnight's Statements.  I didn't say I'd move fast!

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #106 on: July 16, 2008, 05:48:41 PM »
Psiwarriors are a tier 4. They can have some nice abilities but once you run out of power points (easy to do) they're just a crappy figher with fewer feats and medium BAB.

JaronK

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #107 on: July 16, 2008, 06:02:09 PM »
So, first you major create a glass apparatus which has a large vat, a series of tubes, each dangling flasks with a weak connection to the tube (such that you can score and break it off easily).  Next you major create say acid in the vat, it flows down into the flasks, you score and break the flasks off.  This is seriously nothing a little creativity can't solve (generally the case with major creation).

Okay, so now you needed a craft check to make this huge and VERY complex glass apparatus with tangling flasks and all that.  That is masterwork (DC 20) at the least, so the Wizard probably has to blow a Magecraft Spell as well to craft it successfully.  And of course the Wizard has to be able to reliably hit the DC to make the various substances.

So at this point he's probably blowing a first level spell and two fifth level spells, and the potions last 1 hour per caster level before their vials suddenly vanish and douse the area in liquid if they're unused.  Furthermore, all this only gets you one type of substance, so if you're fighting something fire immune early in the day (and thus use acid) and then find some acid immunes later, you're in trouble. 

Surely you can see this is a major resource expenditure just to make your build viable at all.  And of course the build is in serious trouble if there isn't a Wizard 9+ or Sorcerer 10+ in the party (which does happen!).  I mean, Archivists are really powerful, and would clearly be stronger than Wizards... if they always had a Warlock in the party to give them whatever spells they need.  But they don't always have that, so they're not always stronger.

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Alchemical fire is the hardest, because of what it is.

Yeah, that's the other thing, this operation sounds more dangerous than a meth lab. 

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As to the nature of the materials:
Acid - there are lots of acids which are not from animals.  This is not a problem.  In fact, I can't think of a single acid unique to animals which would deal damage, because acids used by animals are weak.  Concentrated HF is probably what we're talking about, which is a really nasty acid, and easily produced by major creation.  (Alternately, H2SO4 could work, also produceable by major creation, not as dangerous to work with).

Ah, but Hydroflouric Acid isn't a vegetable or mineral, which are the only things allowable by the spell.  Major Creation is great for making Black Lotus Poison (because it's a vegetable) but the only Acids you can use are specifically vegetable or mineral (with the note that by mineral they mean metal, stone, crystal, etc, as stated by the spell).  So... no acid for you, here, unless there's some plant creature that secretes acid (there might be, I haven't seen one).

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Alchemical Fire is certainly Phosphorus in some form.  The degree to which this form is a liquid affects the ease with which you could major create some useable potions thereof on the fly.  Of course, that someone is producing them somewhere in the world implies this stuff isn't as impossible to work with as pure phosphorus.  Note that phosphorus is also not an animal product.

Okay, so you've got some phosphorous, but what else?  Again, you can only use vegetables and minerals.  I'm not sure pure elements would count.

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I can't speak to alchemical frost/electricity because I don't have a good feel for what they are.  I'd have to guess alchemical frost is a substance that evaporates so quickly it chills you, which means its a liquid and thus works easily in the above set up.  You will have to stopper said flasks quickly however, probably by melting them shut rather than scoring and breaking off (actually, melting shut is a great idea except in the case of phosporus - flames + phosphorus = bad idea).

Again with the whole "this is like a meth lab set up every day" issue, combined with the fact that you still can't show this is even legal to create with Major Creation.  And the massive resource expendature... on a 9th level Wizard, you just took out his top level spells.

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I mean, yes, major creation requires us to know something about these substances.  But anyone familiar with some basic chemistry can arrive at the only plausible candidates.

I don't think you've done so yet... and remember, Chemistry doesn't exist as a field in D&D.  It's alchemy there.  Not only that, Chemistry may not exist at all.  Remember, Physics doesn't work there as it would here (the sun travels around the planet, usually.  Gravity is all kinds of weird, and can be tampered with.  Thermodynamics don't really exist, as creating matter is actually very simple.  And so on).  So why do you assume Chemistry does?

But yeah, if the only reason rogues aren't a higher tier is because they can pull off this kind of operation when supported by Tier 1 clases if the DM reads Major Creation in a liberal way... then I think Rogues are set just right.

JaronK

JaronK

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #108 on: July 16, 2008, 06:04:34 PM »
Hmmm, if we're talking about regular Bard20 I'm inclined to agree they can be hard to optimize. Off the top of my head, two potential ideas pop out: Inspire Courage optimization and Dragonfire Inspiration cheese. Both are considered to be good or at least viable -- +12 to hit and damage or +Xd6 per hit is nothing to sneeze at, I believe. On an "average" party, both of those can make a pretty big difference. Bards can also cover the party face role, have UMD, Hide and Move Silently as class skills, and can even dish out some illusions if need be. Granted that they can't necessarily be good at ALL of those, but they have the potential for all of them.

I'd classify the Bard as a Tier 3. Though they don't have the raw damage potential of many other classes, they can fill a lot of roles quite decently.

Yes, when I think of Bards, I do tend to think Inspire Courage/Dragonfire Inspiration (which I don't consider cheese, it's just solid).  Combine that with Fascinate + Diplomacy and right there you've got something really solid, and Bards in social games are absolutely incredible.  It's very rare that a Bard isn't useful.  But it does take some work. 

But let's face it, a single Bard 1 with Dragonfire Inspiration playing a Masterwork War Drum can turn a battle around easily (+2d6 fire damage on all attacks for all allies within the range of a war drum?  Oh heck yeah!).  That's a LOT of power at that level!

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #109 on: July 16, 2008, 08:45:33 PM »
On a side note, can't an Artificer give the Archivist whatever spells he needs as well?
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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #110 on: July 16, 2008, 08:58:29 PM »
Yes, yes he can.

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #111 on: July 16, 2008, 09:07:01 PM »
WTF, I can't believe how much you guys are arguing over a bunch of alchemical items.

1) Major Creation isn't limited to plant matter only. That's Minor Creation. Major creation can create minerals. HF is a mineral acid.

2) There are nasty acids that are made by animals. Stomach acid is fairly concentrated Hydrochloric (which is also considered a mineral acid...). Since you can presumably choose to take only the acid when casting the spell, and not include all the water it is dissolved in, this means that you can make really horrible acid if you can conjure animal material. It isn't as bad as HF, but it is bad enough that it will burn the hell out of you. I'm not sure about plant acids. I'd assume some of them make acid, particularly the carnivorous ones, but I'm not familiar with them.

Why are we even discussing Major Creation, anyway? Why can't he just carry around a Haversack full of purchased flasks of this stuff?

Edit: Yes, carnivorous plants also make acid, some of it reportedly quite strong. So even Minor Creation should be able to make acid in the hands of someone with the proper knowledge skills.
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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #112 on: July 16, 2008, 10:28:17 PM »
WTF, I can't believe how much you guys are arguing over a bunch of alchemical items.

1) Major Creation isn't limited to plant matter only. That's Minor Creation. Major creation can create minerals. HF is a mineral acid.

2) There are nasty acids that are made by animals. Stomach acid is fairly concentrated Hydrochloric (which is also considered a mineral acid...). Since you can presumably choose to take only the acid when casting the spell, and not include all the water it is dissolved in, this means that you can make really horrible acid if you can conjure animal material. It isn't as bad as HF, but it is bad enough that it will burn the hell out of you. I'm not sure about plant acids. I'd assume some of them make acid, particularly the carnivorous ones, but I'm not familiar with them.

Why are we even discussing Major Creation, anyway? Why can't he just carry around a Haversack full of purchased flasks of this stuff?

Edit: Yes, carnivorous plants also make acid, some of it reportedly quite strong. So even Minor Creation should be able to make acid in the hands of someone with the proper knowledge skills.

Because for some reason JaronK doesn't accept that the rogue fills up a handy haversack or two with potions while he's in town...
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JaronK

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #113 on: July 16, 2008, 11:50:20 PM »
WTF, I can't believe how much you guys are arguing over a bunch of alchemical items.

1) Major Creation isn't limited to plant matter only. That's Minor Creation. Major creation can create minerals. HF is a mineral acid.

The spell is pretty specific when it says that minerals are stone, metal, quartz, etc.  Hydroflouric Acid is not a mineral, nor is it vegetable matter.  It's just not.

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2) There are nasty acids that are made by animals. Stomach acid is fairly concentrated Hydrochloric (which is also considered a mineral acid...). Since you can presumably choose to take only the acid when casting the spell, and not include all the water it is dissolved in, this means that you can make really horrible acid if you can conjure animal material. It isn't as bad as HF, but it is bad enough that it will burn the hell out of you. I'm not sure about plant acids. I'd assume some of them make acid, particularly the carnivorous ones, but I'm not familiar with them.

Animals won't do it either.  Needs to be mineral or vegetable.  I don't know about acidic vegetable matter... there might be some but I don't know what it is.

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Why are we even discussing Major Creation, anyway?

Because he brought it up as a method.

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Why can't he just carry around a Haversack full of purchased flasks of this stuff?

Because you need a HUGE amount of it.  Firing 30+ shots a round is pretty standard at higher levels.

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Edit: Yes, carnivorous plants also make acid, some of it reportedly quite strong. So even Minor Creation should be able to make acid in the hands of someone with the proper knowledge skills.

Which ones?

Anyway, there's other issues, beyond the simple supply problems.  I don't think you can take Weapon Focus (Potion) which means you can't use any Master Thrower tricks with them, and that's going to seriously weaken your ranged damage when using them.  Furthermore, you can't put a truedeath crystal on these things, so you're likely going to need to be UMDing wands of gravestrike/golem strike... which makes using two hands for this rather hard (use the wand, drop the wand, fire your shots, next round pick it up?).

Basically, you've got supply problems, you've got problems making sure you can actually sneak attack, and you've got a bunch of gear that becomes critical to the build.  That high gear dependency is not found in Tier 3+ classes.

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #114 on: July 16, 2008, 11:51:29 PM »
On a side note, can't an Artificer give the Archivist whatever spells he needs as well?

No, he can't.  Artificer scrolls were defined (by Errata IIRC) as being neither arcane nor divine, so no dice.

So, pretty much Warlock is the way to go unless the DM lets you research (which takes a lot of time, but should work... you can always research a duplicate spell).

JaronK

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #115 on: July 17, 2008, 06:03:22 AM »
I haven't really been paying attention to the debate, but I see HF being thrown about. How do you guys propose to actually hold the stuff? It's not like you can put it in a glass or metal flask... well I guess you could, but it wouldn't last very long. I'm pretty sure they don't have polyethylene in D&D.
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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #116 on: July 17, 2008, 06:17:46 AM »
I think there's a very simple way to solve that debate.

JaronK, am I correct in assuming that your Tier system is designed to evaluate characters in a vaccuum, I.E. not relying on party members to cover their weaknesses? For example, assuming a Fighter with no backup to cast buffs on him?

If the answer is yes, the Potion Throwing Rogue is not enough to bump the Rogue up a tier, because he depends on another party member to supply the juice. By himself, he just can't do it. He can't, reliably and consistently deliver all that nastiness by himself. If anything, like any other class, when he's out of juice, he's worthless. There are next to no classes that can fight all day at full power, and the Potion Throwing Rogue (hereafter referred to as Peter) isn't one of them.


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Yes, when I think of Bards, I do tend to think Inspire Courage/Dragonfire Inspiration (which I don't consider cheese, it's just solid).  Combine that with Fascinate + Diplomacy and right there you've got something really solid, and Bards in social games are absolutely incredible.  It's very rare that a Bard isn't useful.  But it does take some work.

But let's face it, a single Bard 1 with Dragonfire Inspiration playing a Masterwork War Drum can turn a battle around easily (+2d6 fire damage on all attacks for all allies within the range of a war drum?  Oh heck yeah!).  That's a LOT of power at that level!
Glad they remain Tier 3, then. Even though SC shenanigans can conceivably push him up a tier (especially if you consider the Shapechange + Firre Eladrin + Lyric Spell trick...)
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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #117 on: July 17, 2008, 08:05:13 AM »
I think there's a very simple way to solve that debate.

JaronK, am I correct in assuming that your Tier system is designed to evaluate characters in a vaccuum, I.E. not relying on party members to cover their weaknesses? For example, assuming a Fighter with no backup to cast buffs on him?

If the answer is yes, the Potion Throwing Rogue is not enough to bump the Rogue up a tier, because he depends on another party member to supply the juice. By himself, he just can't do it. He can't, reliably and consistently deliver all that nastiness by himself. If anything, like any other class, when he's out of juice, he's worthless. There are next to no classes that can fight all day at full power, and the Potion Throwing Rogue (hereafter referred to as Peter) isn't one of them.


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Yes, when I think of Bards, I do tend to think Inspire Courage/Dragonfire Inspiration (which I don't consider cheese, it's just solid).  Combine that with Fascinate + Diplomacy and right there you've got something really solid, and Bards in social games are absolutely incredible.  It's very rare that a Bard isn't useful.  But it does take some work.

But let's face it, a single Bard 1 with Dragonfire Inspiration playing a Masterwork War Drum can turn a battle around easily (+2d6 fire damage on all attacks for all allies within the range of a war drum?  Oh heck yeah!).  That's a LOT of power at that level!
Glad they remain Tier 3, then. Even though SC shenanigans can conceivably push him up a tier (especially if you consider the Shapechange + Firre Eladrin + Lyric Spell trick...)

Um, Rogue can use major or minor creation via wand or staff... And a potion throwing rogue doesn't exactly have a lot of mandatory purchases.

That whole discussion was predicated on JaronK's weird insistence that you just can't *buy* a few thousand potions, which given access to places like Sigil I find a very bizarre restriction.

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Regardless, under RAW assumptions isn't every class with access to UMD equivalent in tier to a cleric, because they can be a cleric of their level +2 with Candle of Invocation?
« Last Edit: July 17, 2008, 08:07:26 AM by Squirrelloid »
The ignorant shall fall to the squirrels. -Chip 4:2

bayar

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #118 on: July 17, 2008, 08:49:40 AM »
Um, Rogue can use major or minor creation via wand or staff... And a potion throwing rogue doesn't exactly have a lot of mandatory purchases.
Only minor creation can  be made into a wand due to the spell level restriction...

That whole discussion was predicated on JaronK's weird insistence that you just can't *buy* a few thousand potions, which given access to places like Sigil I find a very bizarre restriction.
Well, there is that # X rule in the "things I'm not allowed to do while gaming" on GiantITP that says "I'm not allowed to buy a shitload of Alchemist's fire just for the hell of it/because their cheap/because I can carry them." . Doubt that any sane DM would allow you to just BUY a shitload of flasks...

And as a solution, get a hireling to make you flasks while you are adventuring. Give him a masterwork alchemy tool (My 1st chemistry set) and a couple of bags of holding filled with alchemical supplies and just scream "I need ammo !" when running low on flasks.

Squirrelloid

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #119 on: July 17, 2008, 09:01:58 AM »
Um, Rogue can use major or minor creation via wand or staff... And a potion throwing rogue doesn't exactly have a lot of mandatory purchases.
Only minor creation can  be made into a wand due to the spell level restriction...

Yes, which is why it was followed by 'or staff'.  And as has been noted, there are acids which are made by plants that are sufficiently strong.  (I imagine pitcher plants to be precise.)

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That whole discussion was predicated on JaronK's weird insistence that you just can't *buy* a few thousand potions, which given access to places like Sigil I find a very bizarre restriction.
Well, there is that # X rule in the "things I'm not allowed to do while gaming" on GiantITP that says "I'm not allowed to buy a shitload of Alchemist's fire just for the hell of it/because their cheap/because I can carry them." . Doubt that any sane DM would allow you to just BUY a shitload of flasks...

And as a solution, get a hireling to make you flasks while you are adventuring. Give him a masterwork alchemy tool (My 1st chemistry set) and a couple of bags of holding filled with alchemical supplies and just scream "I need ammo !" when running low on flasks.

Would a sane DM let me buy a Candle of Invocation?  If the answer to that question is ever yes (and frankly, for anyone who doesn't frequent CO, it might just be, because they don't understand the horror), then your ideas of what goes on in friendly actual games is truly distorted.  Seriously, we're talking about a system where sorcerors are making themselves permanent metal bodies and wizards can chain-bind efreeti for rings of infinite wishes, and you have a problem with some arbitary number of flasks of alchemical fire?  I'm trying really hard not to laugh here.

And frankly, I could care less about anything GitP decides - they've had more than their fair share of 'Threads that make us laugh, cry, or both', and they were all pretty egregious.  The game has rules.  Anything not in those rules is not suitable for internet forum discussions (outside the context of 'these are my DMs houserules, help me optimize my character').

And quite honestly, I've *seen* a potion thrower rogue played, with a DM who wasn't about to let the CoDzilla go around burning down Tokyo with radioactive fire.  And they had no problems buying potions.  Its a mundane item.  Buying 1000 of them is easier than buying a +2 sword.
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