Author Topic: Trying to Optimize a JPM  (Read 6085 times)

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MalcolmSprye

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Trying to Optimize a JPM
« on: November 11, 2010, 07:40:15 PM »
Ok, so my GM let us know that sometime in the future he'll be running a dragon themed campaign.  So I began thinking of Kobolds.  I'm thinking of a Jade Pheonix Mage coming out of sorceror.

The goal: 9th level spells AND 9th level maneuvers, with as high a BAB as possible.
The constraints:  This isn't a super broken playgroup.  Whatever we come up with should be doable through a "normal" leveling progression.  No psychic reformation, no cheesy tricks to make a million gold to buy items.  Assume 1 flaw.  The current campaign is mostly good PCs with one neutral, next will probably be similar.  I think it's safe to say that anything that MUST be evil is out
edit: Sources: not dragon magazine, all others subject to GM approval.
I think its a 28 point build.

Also, I'm still not totally familiar with all source books, so at the very least tell me what source books stuff is from, and in cases where you're using some sort of trick, pretend I'm dumb and Explain the trick.

On to the build:
I started off thinking of:
Dragonwrought kobold with Loredrake (reading the archetype descriptions, it's not clear whether they're feats, or just tradeoffs).  Probably do the greater draconic Rite. I've seen a dragonspawn template mentioned a few times that gives you a caster level, but I wasn't sure where to look it up, and whether I had to be evil.

Originally, I thought:
Sorcerer 4/Warblade 2 / Jade Pheonix Mage 1/ abjurant champion 4 / JPM 9  Probably focusing on Diamond Mind /iron heart for magic defense.
Unless my math is off, that gets lvl 9 spells and maneuvers at lvl 19.  Lvl 18 for spells if the template thing works out.

But then I started wondering:
Is there any way to get into Jade Pheonix Mage faster?

Due to loredrake, I satisfy all the caster requirements for JPM at lvl 1.  1 level of Warblade could satisfy the rest... except for the pesky 9 ranks in Concentration.

I tried reading The Prerequisite and Early Entry Handbook, but honestly, I got very confused.  It seems like there are ways to get ranks above your normal maximum... but trying to read about bloodlines and skill knowledge in UA gave me a headache :/ .

If I can magically get 4 extra ranks of Concentration, Sorcerer 1/ Warblade 1/ JPM 4/ Abjurant Champion 5/ JPM 6 Some PrC with full Caster and (hopefully)BAB 3
If I can magically get 1 extra rank of Concentration, then Sorcerer 4/Warblade 1/JPM 3/ Abjurant Champ 5/JPM 7 Gains me a caster level.

So, ideas?  advice?  explanations for stuff I obviously didn't get?

« Last Edit: November 11, 2010, 07:54:13 PM by MalcolmSprye »

archangel.arcanis

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Re: Trying to Optimize a JPM
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2010, 07:46:48 PM »
Dragonspawn is in one of the Dragonlance setting books, i'll find which one and edit it in. In particular you want white dragonspawn as it is the best choice for such shenanigans.

There is no way this character can get around the minimum skill ranks as far as I know there is only 1 way to pull that off and it requires being a Mind Flayer.

Also what is your starting level? Books allowed? Stat generation? etc.. the normal questions.

Dragonspawn is in Bestiary of Krynn P43. (I have the revised version so the page number may be different)
« Last Edit: November 11, 2010, 07:52:34 PM by archangel.arcanis »
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Re: Trying to Optimize a JPM
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2010, 07:55:28 PM »
Sorry I dont have an actual build comment. You said..

The constraints:  This isn't a super broken playgroup.  Whatever we come up with should be doable through a "normal" leveling progression.  No psychic reformation, no cheesy tricks to make a million gold to buy items. 

On to the build:
I started off thinking of:
Dragonwrought kobold with Loredrake (reading the archetype descriptions, it's not clear whether they're feats, or just tradeoffs).  Probably do the greater draconic Rite. I've seen a dragonspawn template mentioned a few times that gives you a caster level, but I wasn't sure where to look it up, and whether I had to be evil.

Just a thought, but the dragonwrought/loredrake/draconic rite combo is pretty cheesy. So your kind of contradicting your self here imo.
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MalcolmSprye

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Re: Trying to Optimize a JPM
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2010, 07:57:22 PM »
Starting level 1

28 point build I think
No dragon mag, other books subject to approval I guess.

MalcolmSprye

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Re: Trying to Optimize a JPM
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2010, 08:06:00 PM »
Sorry I dont have an actual build comment. You said..

The constraints:  This isn't a super broken playgroup.  Whatever we come up with should be doable through a "normal" leveling progression.  No psychic reformation, no cheesy tricks to make a million gold to buy items.  

On to the build:
I started off thinking of:
Dragonwrought kobold with Loredrake (reading the archetype descriptions, it's not clear whether they're feats, or just tradeoffs).  Probably do the greater draconic Rite. I've seen a dragonspawn template mentioned a few times that gives you a caster level, but I wasn't sure where to look it up, and whether I had to be evil.

Just a thought, but the dragonwrought/loredrake/draconic rite combo is pretty cheesy. So your kind of contradicting your self here imo.


Well, I figured since I was dropping 3 caster levels, it wouldn't be too bad. My casting would still be less than a wizard.  To give an example of "not too broken", we have a wizard in our current campaign, but he's given up a caster level for a few levels of Sea Witch.  He's still a wizard though....
My GM might not agree, but I'd say sorcerer who's down 6 or 7 feats compared to a wizard with the same caster level isn't too broken.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2010, 08:11:01 PM by MalcolmSprye »

archangel.arcanis

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Re: Trying to Optimize a JPM
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2010, 08:34:02 PM »
Sorry I dont have an actual build comment. You said..

The constraints:  This isn't a super broken playgroup.  Whatever we come up with should be doable through a "normal" leveling progression.  No psychic reformation, no cheesy tricks to make a million gold to buy items.  

On to the build:
I started off thinking of:
Dragonwrought kobold with Loredrake (reading the archetype descriptions, it's not clear whether they're feats, or just tradeoffs).  Probably do the greater draconic Rite. I've seen a dragonspawn template mentioned a few times that gives you a caster level, but I wasn't sure where to look it up, and whether I had to be evil.

Just a thought, but the dragonwrought/loredrake/draconic rite combo is pretty cheesy. So your kind of contradicting your self here imo.


Well, I figured since I was dropping 3 caster levels, it wouldn't be too bad. My casting would still be less than a wizard.  To give an example of "not too broken", we have a wizard in our current campaign, but he's given up a caster level for a few levels of Sea Witch.  He's still a wizard though....
My GM might not agree, but I'd say sorcerer who's down 6 or 7 feats compared to a wizard with the same caster level isn't too broken.
That really depends on how the wizard is played and how you play this guy. He will be pretty powerful, or at least have a really high potential since poor tactics and spell choices could make him practically useless.
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MalcolmSprye

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Re: Trying to Optimize a JPM
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2010, 08:52:16 PM »
Of course:  Any high level spell caster requires judgement, to not mention consultation with you GM to avoid destroying the plot, the game world believability, and the morale of non-casters..

sir_argenon

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Re: Trying to Optimize a JPM
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2010, 08:53:26 PM »
cityscape.  the feats favored, and primary contact with an arcane guild will get you one bonus rank of concentration.

gorfnad

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Re: Trying to Optimize a JPM
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2010, 02:09:33 AM »
Originally, I thought:
Sorcerer 4/Warblade 2 / Jade Pheonix Mage 1/ abjurant champion 4 / JPM 9  Probably focusing on Diamond Mind /iron heart for magic defense.
Unless my math is off, that gets lvl 9 spells and maneuvers at lvl 19.  Lvl 18 for spells if the template thing works out.
JPM only advances spellcasting at 8 out of 10 levels so you're looking at Sorc 4 + JPM 8 + AbjCha 4 = Sorc  CL 16 = 8th level spells, however Loredrake will bring this up to 18 Cl and 9th level spells
Your Initiator Level is 4 (1/2 of non-initiator levels, Sorc 4 + AbjCha 4) + Warblade 2 + JPM 10 = IL 16 = 8th level maneuvers.

Here is a "Dragon" themed gish that might work:
Silverbrow Human Bard 6/ Warblade or Crusader 2/ Jade Phoenix Mage 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Jade Phoenix Mage 8
9th Level Spells at CL 16 (see Sublime Chord), 8th level maneuvers at IL 16, BAB 17
It's also has a decent amount of skill points, can wear armor, and can really boost the rest of the party.
Feats Combos: Dragonfire Inspiration + Song of the White Raven + Song of the Heart + Words of Creation + other assorted Inspire Courage Optimization. Other feats to consider would be Versatile Spellcaster, Melodic Casting, Snowflake Wardance, and Clarion Commander.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2010, 02:15:20 AM by gorfnad »

Catty Nebulart

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Re: Trying to Optimize a JPM
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2010, 02:14:55 AM »
Meh he already is playing a bard, Does a beguiler with a sovreing archetype get to cats the divine spells he can cast as arcane... eg for child of eberon the entire druid list? :lol

if so swapping sorcerer with beguiler might make sense even if you need to give up 9'th level spells. spontaneous access to huge spell lists tends to give you the right tool for the job as opposed to a better hammer. :P
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Re: Trying to Optimize a JPM
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2010, 02:47:23 AM »
Well, I figured since I was dropping 3 caster levels, it wouldn't be too bad. My casting would still be less than a wizard.
All I hear is "whaaa I'm dropping three levels for 16 levels of martial advancement, whaa I'm behind in one area of one of the most powerful classes in D&D".

See this
The constraints:  This isn't a super broken playgroup.  Whatever we come up with should be doable through a "normal" leveling progression.  No psychic reformation, no cheesy tricks to make a million gold to buy items.  Assume 1 flaw.
You're already doing fine as is. Really, you are. Compare your self to the group, not to Pun-Pun, Mindflayers, StP Erudites, or even Shadowcraft Incantatrix Mages.

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Also, Steel Dragon > Kobold.
Legally a True Dragon without misreading & ignoring rules, far better caster advancement without a triple feat investment (srsly one spell out does that), and you also can learn and cast divine spells, Divine Power for example, just fine. The only catch is Steel Dragon requires you to either start out at ECL 6, or play something else until the group is ECL 6 and then die and start a new character.
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fuinjutsu

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Re: Trying to Optimize a JPM
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2010, 03:41:22 AM »
Also, Steel Dragon > Kobold.

Steel dragon?

I think you must mean something else.  Where can i find the steel dragon you speak of?
Eh, the wizard have more money than them combined, he could in theory just use all his money on a fleet of trained attack mules, but then we aren't playing 3.5 but zergling rushing in Starcraft instead.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Trying to Optimize a JPM
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2010, 05:18:39 AM »
I'd actually recommend the Wyrm of War archetype instead, if you're trying for a maneuver/spellcasting fusion.  I think you can avoid the warblade levels entirely.


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MalcolmSprye

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Re: Trying to Optimize a JPM
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2010, 11:47:03 AM »
Originally, I thought:
Sorcerer 4/Warblade 2 / Jade Pheonix Mage 1/ abjurant champion 4 / JPM 9  Probably focusing on Diamond Mind /iron heart for magic defense.
Unless my math is off, that gets lvl 9 spells and maneuvers at lvl 19.  Lvl 18 for spells if the template thing works out.
JPM only advances spellcasting at 8 out of 10 levels so you're looking at Sorc 4 + JPM 8 + AbjCha 4 = Sorc  CL 16 = 8th level spells, however Loredrake will bring this up to 18 Cl and 9th level spells
Your Initiator Level is 4 (1/2 of non-initiator levels, Sorc 4 + AbjCha 4) + Warblade 2 + JPM 10 = IL 16 = 8th level maneuvers.

Here is a "Dragon" themed gish that might work:
Silverbrow Human Bard 6/ Warblade or Crusader 2/ Jade Phoenix Mage 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Jade Phoenix Mage 8
9th Level Spells at CL 16 (see Sublime Chord), 8th level maneuvers at IL 16, BAB 17
It's also has a decent amount of skill points, can wear armor, and can really boost the rest of the party.
Feats Combos: Dragonfire Inspiration + Song of the White Raven + Song of the Heart + Words of Creation + other assorted Inspire Courage Optimization. Other feats to consider would be Versatile Spellcaster, Melodic Casting, Snowflake Wardance, and Clarion Commander.
Does abjurant champion not give full initiator level?  I keep re-reading the rules for initiator level in the Tome of Battle, and it says "In most cases, you add the full prestige class level to your manial adept level to determine your initiator level."

Mad Linguist:  cool idea. I guess that would give me a higher initiator level, while keeping the same caster level?

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Re: Trying to Optimize a JPM
« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2010, 11:51:13 AM »
Originally, I thought:
Sorcerer 4/Warblade 2 / Jade Pheonix Mage 1/ abjurant champion 4 / JPM 9  Probably focusing on Diamond Mind /iron heart for magic defense.
Unless my math is off, that gets lvl 9 spells and maneuvers at lvl 19.  Lvl 18 for spells if the template thing works out.
JPM only advances spellcasting at 8 out of 10 levels so you're looking at Sorc 4 + JPM 8 + AbjCha 4 = Sorc  CL 16 = 8th level spells, however Loredrake will bring this up to 18 Cl and 9th level spells
Your Initiator Level is 4 (1/2 of non-initiator levels, Sorc 4 + AbjCha 4) + Warblade 2 + JPM 10 = IL 16 = 8th level maneuvers.

Here is a "Dragon" themed gish that might work:
Silverbrow Human Bard 6/ Warblade or Crusader 2/ Jade Phoenix Mage 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Jade Phoenix Mage 8
9th Level Spells at CL 16 (see Sublime Chord), 8th level maneuvers at IL 16, BAB 17
It's also has a decent amount of skill points, can wear armor, and can really boost the rest of the party.
Feats Combos: Dragonfire Inspiration + Song of the White Raven + Song of the Heart + Words of Creation + other assorted Inspire Courage Optimization. Other feats to consider would be Versatile Spellcaster, Melodic Casting, Snowflake Wardance, and Clarion Commander.
Does abjurant champion not give full initiator level?  I keep re-reading the rules for initiator level in the Tome of Battle, and it says "In most cases, you add the full prestige class level to your manial adept level to determine your initiator level."

Mad Linguist:  cool idea. I guess that would give me a higher initiator level, while keeping the same caster level?
That only applies for Tome of Battle prestige class, note that all of hem have the "you add your full _______ levels to your initiator level" in the manoeuvres section of the prestige classes

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Re: Trying to Optimize a JPM
« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2010, 11:51:29 AM »
Steel Dragon.

Re: initiator level.  I tend to read that sentence as referencing prestige classes presented in Tome of Battle, myself.  YMMV.
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archangel.arcanis

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Re: Trying to Optimize a JPM
« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2010, 11:57:19 AM »
Abj. Champ. only advances half the level. The clause you are talking about in ToB is only talking about PrC's in that book. The rest of the paragraph you quote states to see the PrC descriptions and those explicitly advance IL. A prime example is Bloodstorm blade as it only advances at half IL dut to not granting any maneuvers.
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MalcolmSprye

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Re: Trying to Optimize a JPM
« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2010, 12:18:41 PM »
Abj. Champ. only advances half the level. The clause you are talking about in ToB is only talking about PrC's in that book. The rest of the paragraph you quote states to see the PrC descriptions and those explicitly advance IL. A prime example is Bloodstorm blade as it only advances at half IL dut to not granting any maneuvers.

Yah, I know that the PrC's in ToB explicitly advance IL... it was the fact that they said "in most cases...", which, if it's only ToB PrC's is wrong. :D

archangel.arcanis

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Re: Trying to Optimize a JPM
« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2010, 12:23:50 PM »
Abj. Champ. only advances half the level. The clause you are talking about in ToB is only talking about PrC's in that book. The rest of the paragraph you quote states to see the PrC descriptions and those explicitly advance IL. A prime example is Bloodstorm blade as it only advances at half IL dut to not granting any maneuvers.

Yah, I know that the PrC's in ToB explicitly advance IL... it was the fact that they said "in most cases...", which, if it's only ToB PrC's is wrong. :D
Since when has WotC actually designed something new with a context greater than the book it was in. They don't care that there are a lot more PrC's than those in ToB, most of those in the ToB advance full IL. Lets check the errata...oh wait  :banghead
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Re: Trying to Optimize a JPM
« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2010, 01:21:46 PM »
Using Dragonspawn (Dragonlance Campaign Setting, p. 222-223) and the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage is much, much less "cheesy" than Loredrake. I'm not interested in having the argument whether you may choose loredrake or not, just suffice to say that getting 2 free sorcerer levels for pretty much nothing is not something most DM's look favorably upon. You'll still have your 2 sorcerer levels without loredrake if you do this. I'd only take dragonspawn if your DM allows LA buyoff, though.
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