Brilliant Gameologists Forum
The Thinktank => Homebrew & House Rules => : JohnnyMayHymn September 03, 2010, 09:26:05 PM
-
So what would it take to make a Fighter Tier 1?
__________________________Here's my first draft_______________________________
HD d12
all good saves
full BaB
DR1/-- progresses to DR20/-- @ 20th level
spell resistance 1: progresses to spell resistance 20 @ 20th level
weapon proficiency: all
armor proficiency: all including tower shields
ignore penalties for offhand attacks
ignore all armor penalties
3 bonus feats/level chosen from any feat you qualify for
_____________________
60 feats too many? not enough? to match the power of a Tier 1 caster? (cleric, archivist, wizard, druid etc...)
-
So what would it take to make a Fighter Tier 1?
9th level spells.
-
Sounds like about Tier 3 to me. DR is okay at low levels but doesn't count for much at high levels. SR of your level is useless (any caster of at most 1 level beneath you bypasses it without rolling). 3 feats per level is useful, but there are only so many good ones, and they don't usually add what you really need, extra options. At best you'll spend most of them on Shape Soulmeld, Martial Study/Stance, and other feats that grant you access to the alternative magic systems. Those won't get you above what those systems grant the classes designed to use them, though. Sounds like a solidly powerful Tier 3 class.
If you want to make a Fighter into a Tier 1 class, you're going to need to look at what the Tier 1 classes actually get to do. Look at the Wizard spell list, even just in the PHB/SRD. Take a look at everything they can do. Flight, teleportation, changing the battlefield to suit their whims, controlling time, turning into a creature that makes trained fighters look like wimps, summoning and ordering around creatures that make trained fighters look like wimps, creating entire new realities, and that's just for starters.
-
Eh, just being able to stop someone else from doing all that crap is a pretty good argument that you're on par with them, and in that case the Frank and K Races of War fighter gets pretty close. It's probably Tier 2, in that regard. It's also fairly versatile with the floating Combat feat.
-
At minimum, your SR should be 10+your level if you want it to be at all effective. A SR of 1 will literally do nothing.
-
Give him d20 HD, all good saves.
SR is calculated at 20 +figher levels
DR is calculated at 20/- + fighter levels
Pounce
Quickened teleport at 1/2 figher level /encounter
Improved Evasion
Mettle
Slippery Mind
Deflect Arrows and rays with anything
+ class level and double dex modifier on initiative rolls
Give him all class features of the warblade, swordsage and crusader, as well as the best combination of maneuvers known, prepped, stances known and the warblade and crusader maneuver recharge mechanic.
Build in a Ring of Spellbattle that works at 1/2 fighter level /encounter
Free magebane property to all his weapons.
Wins D&D at level 20 as a capstone feature.
-
ok thanks for the input lets try this
__________________________Draft II: IRON CANNON SKILL GORILLA _______________________________
HD d20 (d100?)
all good saves
full BaB --(will this need to be higher than full BAB? perhaps double BAB if dual wielding? or monk stuff see below?)
DR1/-- @1st level progresses to DR20/-- @ 20th level
spell resistance 10: progresses to spell resistance 30 @ 20th level
weapon proficiency: all
armor proficiency: all including tower shields
ignore penalties for offhand attacks
ignore all armor penalties
3 bonus feats/level chosen from any feat you qualify for
(EX):At each level you may take any number of bonus feats as long as you qualify for them.
This cannot be used to take a feat that can be taken multiple times using the same choices.
For example you could chose weapon focus: dagger and weapon focus: great sword, but you
could not choose toughness more than once using this ability.
skill points per level: 10 + int Mod + Wis Mod
class skills: All yes all skills
something different (EX): if wearing two locking gauntlets you are able to effectively wield 2 one-handed weapons
and use 2 shields at the same time (except tower shields)
_____if this doesn't work(at least tier 2) all feats IS kinda scary_____maybe add some of these..._______
rogue sneak attack progression without the sneaking (it's just a damage bonus cause you're THAT badass)
wildshape progression as druid5,master of many forms10,druid5(with ex abilities added via MOMF)
monk speed
monk unarmed damage/flurry of blows(but not as a full attack make it a bit quicker-standard action?) -
maybe you can also flurry using weapons?
gain a swim speed and a climb speed of half your land speed (think olympics and ninja warrior)
ok the point of all this is a demonstration of the shenanigans that need to be used in order to get ANYWHERE close to the power level of full casters using only non-magical melee type stuff
@nick hrmm ToB..... I have that book but I play mostly casters so that didn't come to mind... I'll take a closer look but from what I understand
it's mostly tier 3 stuff in there....
-
@nick hrmm ToB..... I have that book but I play mostly casters so that didn't come to mind... I'll take a closer look but from what I understand
it's mostly tier 3 stuff in there....
When you have the most number of maneuvers known and prepped and a recharge mechanism that's at once automatic and swift, its tier 2 at least.
Plus you win D&D at level 20.
-
Even then, T2 is difficult to claim, remember the Fighter is excellent at delivering raw statistical impact. Hes just permanently in that little corner of "swing sword, repeat".
-
I still don't see any stopping of time, ripping of holes into reality, or creation of new planes of existence going on. (http://lparchive.org/LetsPlay/Smilies/emot-colbert.gif)
-
Here's another Tier 1 mod then.
HD: not bothered
BAB: not bothered
Saves: not bothered
Skills: not bothered
Class features
Level 1: Imagine Breaker - Choose of your hands to exude a personal bubble of Anti-magic field. The size of this anti-magic field increases by 5ft at every odd level. All of the Fighter's equipment, abilities etc continue to work in this field. This field negates psionics too if your world does not observe the magic-psionics transparency rule.
Level 1: Sharingan - You can duplicate any spell/power/invocation/whatever performed in front of you. You use your class level as your caster level but use the primary casting stat of the original caster. You can still duplicate the spell even if your casting stat is insufficient to cast the spell. Enjoy your book keeping.
Level 2: Projection - You may, as per Call Weaponry power at will as a move action, draw forth any weapon of your choosing of a cost within twice your class level (MIC wealth by class level). This ability works once per encounter + once every class level. This weapon will last as long as you hold onto it and disappears once it leaves your hand (unless the weapon is meant to be thrown, which disappears once thrown at an enemy, whether it is successful or not. It may return if you imbue it with the returning enchantment)
Once per day, you may call forth any weapon of your choose of a cost four times your class level. This weapon lasts till the end of the encounter.
Level 3 : Mask of the Inner Demon - You may as a move action, manifest a battle mask over your face, as well as any other cosmetic changes you wish and gain incredible fighting prowess. Once per encounter, increasing by one more per encounter every odd levels, you gain a +2 bonus to your Str, Dex and Con and a +2 bonus to attack and damage rolls, including rolls to confirm a critical hit. Every three levels after this, the bonuses increase by 2. This ability lasts as long as your modified Con modifier. You are fatigued once this ability ends for the rest of the encounter, or 10 minutes if the encounter is over. You may dismiss this state as a free action.
Level 4: Protagonist Luck - As the hero of the story, you gain exceptional luck. You gain the equivalent of the paladin's Divine Grace ability as well as evasion, which improves to improved evasion at level 8. This evasion ability applies to all three saves, not just Ref (coz I dunno wtf the names of the other abilities are called if they exist)
Level 5: Protagonist Resilience - You gain DR 10/- + class level. You gain Regeneration 5 + class level /BBEG, meaning only the BBEG of the game can bypass your regeneration.
Level 6: Gate of Babylon - You have turned your Projection beyond the simple creation of a weapon, but turned the ability to project into an actual firing skill. Each use of your Projection ability for the encounter gives you a choice of firing said weapons at every target you designate within your sight range. Each weapon fired at the enemy can be a unique Projection if you so wish. Meaning you use 1 Projection use per encounter to fire a unique Projection at every enemy within visual range without range increment penalties.
Level 7: Press the 'B' Button - As an immediate action, you expand and focus Imagine Breaker into an impervious Barrier that functions as a Wall of Force that extends as a perfect protective sphere at the outer edge of your Imagine Breaker range. You can do this as many times as your class level per encounter.
Level 8: Press the 'C' Button - As an immediate action, once per day and once more at every even level, you can temporarily unhinge Imagine Breaker to erase all projectiles threatening yourself or your allies, any positive buffs on your foes or any harmful magical effects targeting yourself and your allies. All foes except the designated 'boss' of the encounter must make a save against a DC of 10 + 1/2 class level + Con mod or die. Successfully saving against this effect deals 1d10 dice of damage per class level.
Level 9: Row Row Fight The Power - Once per encounter, the Fighter may do the impossible and see the invisible. Which means, when encountering an encounter that has too high a challenge rating, or the DMPC turns out to be the enemy that's too high in encounter level for the party to handle, the Fighter rises to the challenge, temporarily upgrading himself to the encounter's highest ECL.
Level 10: I'll Be Back - The Fighter never dies. He benefits from a True Resurrection without fail, unless plot items, plots or DM fiat renders it impossible. As such, this ability still kicks in from an alternative angle. Maybe the protagonist cannot rise from the ashes. Maybe his long-lost and forgotten twin brother steps up the stage as the exact replica. Maybe his party members step in to stage an elaborate rescue from whatever soul jar or soul trapping shit. Maybe the parallel universe spits the Fighter back into the play. No matter what, the Fighter cannot be denied his destiny of stabbing the BBEG to death and winning the game.
-
The original is about tier 3, change the SR to 3 a level can be raised or lowered as a free out of turn action.
In addition to 3 what ever feats, lets just give him the good ones.
The one that lets you summon a demon of half your character level.
Boomerang daze, Item Familiar, Truespeak crap(it works with Item Familiar), that binding line for versatility, Ancestral relic, Fey and demon heritage line.
Complete Champion stuff, elder evil and incarnum stuff.
Then let him add fighter level to any number that appears because of a feat after all other calculations are done.
So the DC for boomerange daze would be 10+damage+fighter level and the fiendish summoning one would let you summon a beasty with a CR of 1/2L+Fighter level for an hour+fighter level a day.
Then let the feats to apply to one thing apply to another so you can use your boomerange daze with a suglin.
That's be at least tier 2
-
I was thinking about the ramifications of adding fighter level to the effects of all the feats and I'm gonna go on and say that it will at least raise the fighter to tier 3 or where ever being able to compete with monsters with out equipment but still being able to use equipment gets you.
Weapon focus You have + 42 to attack with a master work weapon at level 20.With greater weapon focus its +60 and 44 to damage. So full attack would kill about any thing.
Though Knowledge Devotion would be better choice still.
The +1 to all saves feat will leave you with saves of 33/27/27 a SOD used against you from just about any monster will fail.
Dodge, armor focus, or combat expertise will give you an AC of at least 10+~21 per feat put towards this.
Skill focus leaves you as skilled as the guy who put max ranks. The +2/+2 ones are almost that in the two skills they boost. If there is a +1/+1/+1 skill boost it would be the best.
Improved X will give you +24 to those modifiers which normally don't work against big strong things.
So pretty much it would allow the fighter to not be overshadowed by things the wizard summons outside of gate and template stacking.
-
even if you had infinite stats, fighter is still hosed by no save effects of spells etc....
so maybe an ability that creates a DC for these types of effects, perhaps based on the spell level or class level of the class that granted the opponent the ability to use the no save effect, or the creatures HD if nothing else applies
(this wording is meant to be stronger against multiclass casters) HA!
-
Eh, just being able to stop someone else from doing all that crap is a pretty good argument that you're on par with them, and in that case the Frank and K Races of War fighter gets pretty close. It's probably Tier 2, in that regard. It's also fairly versatile with the floating Combat feat.
That was my first thought, as well.
-
even if you had infinite stats, fighter is still hosed by no save effects of spells etc....
so maybe an ability that creates a DC for these types of effects, perhaps based on the spell level or class level of the class that granted the opponent the ability to use the no save effect, or the creatures HD if nothing else applies
(this wording is meant to be stronger against multiclass casters) HA!
True, thats why I only said it would be tier 3 by its self. With the 3 feats a level you would easily to pick up feats like midnight dodge giving 1+level essentia and dodge bonus, blink shirt, immunity to mind affecting effects and the like edging out the no save effects that work. It also frees up money to help deal with nsod.
Abyss Bound Soul:Demigorgon would be on tier 2 par power wise with this. Being able to summon CR 1/2 level+level should do that. Though it does seem that they don't have as many abilities as they did in 3.0.
-
even if you had infinite stats, fighter is still hosed by no save effects of spells etc....
What effects were you looking at in particular?
-
even if you had infinite stats, fighter is still hosed by no save effects of spells etc....
What effects were you looking at in particular?
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9207.0
this is the kind of stuff I was talking about that Tier 1's can do or Tier 2's can spam some of them
(though I'm not saying that a tier3 or lower can't have these kinds of effects either, but in that case they are usually a one trick pony)
i guess what I'm saying is that to make a fighter Tier 1, you either have to add full casting or be able to shrug it off(as well as another Tier 1 could one way or another)
a RL example would be to take an actual sword and shield to a LARP game and start hacking, the fighter in this case knows that the magic is not real,
and it doesn't affect him, cops show up(DM fiat) and ruin the "fun"
this is the kind of Tier 1 nonsense I am looking to replicate in the game(while being balanced with other Tier 1's---if u can call it that at this point)
in short: Fighter wants to play melee rocket tag, lets make it happen!
EDIT: W :o W I was really tired when I posted this, I DO NOT CONDONE THIS KIND OF BEHAVIOR!!!
-
EDIT: W :o W I was really tired when I posted this, I DO NOT CONDONE THIS KIND OF BEHAVIOR!!!
And yet you condone guitar-playing monkeys. Double standards much?
-
EDIT: W :o W I was really tired when I posted this, I DO NOT CONDONE THIS KIND OF BEHAVIOR!!!
And yet you condone guitar-playing monkeys. Double standards much?
scratch that
ok I guess I was tired when I posted that too, Now I DO condone that kind of behavior.
Thank you Prime, for helping me to assess my personal values.
and thanks every1 for the ideas, I would be interested in reading more.. even if that means necromancy ;:; at some point
i guess an easier way to look at this problem would be to ask, how can we make the TOB base classes Tier 1
the answer obviously would be to make maneuvers that are as powerful as spells
so if all party members can then rape the game, and all enemies can rape the game, and the DM, well he already could....
this should make for a balanced game of rocket tag (hardcore mode, if you will)
-
even if you had infinite stats, fighter is still hosed by no save effects of spells etc....
What effects were you looking at in particular?
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9207.0
this is the kind of stuff I was talking about that Tier 1's can do or Tier 2's can spam some of them
(though I'm not saying that a tier3 or lower can't have these kinds of effects either, but in that case they are usually a one trick pony)
i guess what I'm saying is that to make a fighter Tier 1, you either have to add full casting or be able to shrug it off(as well as another Tier 1 could one way or another)
Did you link to the right spot? Most of those things aren't a real problem for a person with really high stats. The others are defeated by teleporting, easily attained by a class that is being given 3 feats a level. Whether through blink shirt, Fey heritage, or shadow jump manuevers.
-
even if you had infinite stats, fighter is still hosed by no save effects of spells etc....
What effects were you looking at in particular?
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9207.0
this is the kind of stuff I was talking about that Tier 1's can do or Tier 2's can spam some of them
(though I'm not saying that a tier3 or lower can't have these kinds of effects either, but in that case they are usually a one trick pony)
i guess what I'm saying is that to make a fighter Tier 1, you either have to add full casting or be able to shrug it off(as well as another Tier 1 could one way or another)
Did you link to the right spot? Most of those things aren't a real problem for a person with really high stats. The others are defeated by teleporting, easily attained by a class that is being given 3 feats a level. Whether through blink shirt, Fey heritage, or shadow jump manuevers.
yes, that was a link to a bunch of no save allowed spells/ abilities
the kinds of things that can make a plain fighter just suck for example, Awe of Dantalion, force cage etc....
but I also see where you are coming from what tier is a fighter that gets 3 feats per level and takes all of the leadership type feats?
are there feats that allow a fighter to break the game at the level that a wizard can? (create a plain for example?)
-
^^
Yes, use Leadership to get a wizard cohort.
-
so you're saying that fighter is already Tier 1 RAW?
-
so you're saying that fighter is already Tier 1 RAW?
By that logic, wouldn't everything be Tier 1?
-
so you're saying that fighter is already Tier 1 RAW?
By that logic, wouldn't everything be Tier 1?
That depends on how you define Tier 1 and there seems to be more than a few positions on how the classes should be ranked.
here are 3 examples
JaronK: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5293.0
Ubernoob: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2252.0
lans: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5291.0
-
Well, no, not really. If Leadership to get a Wizard cohort makes the Fighter Tier 1, then any class that can take Leadership is Tier 1.
-
You basically need to give the fighter save or die effects. Throw in a called shot mechanic and thats a good start.
Level 1- Choose melee or ranged.
Melee- You can cut people's faces off with attacks. If they hit, the opponent must roll a save or die. Free action.
Ranged- You can shoot people's faces off with attacks. If they hit, the opponent must roll a save or die. Free action.
Branch them out over all 20 levels letting the ranged people do it at a bigger range, and the melee people do it while cleaving when someone fails a save or something.
Fast healing of some form, preferably fighter levels/round or something.
Level 5 or so they should be able to make theme appropriate magic items. Weapons, armors, rings, and generally things that need forging are ok. Hats, sandals, and wands are not. Do it as though you were a wizard with the spells you should have, even though you aren't.
Level 10, 12, 14, 16, 18 let them pick from a list of abilities like "Cut through reality" that lets you cast planeshift, because you literally cut the border between planes and can walk through. The list should be like 10 things long, of similar power. All should be "Utility"
Level 20- Can't die anymore. If something would kill you it doesn't. (swords either pass through harmlessly, you immediately regen, or whatever)
This is in addition to needing a bonus feat every level, and the ability to swap out your bonus feats at will. IE I am level 5 and have the two weapon fighting tree. I find a sweet katana, and switch to some form of a two handed fighting tree.
Probably also should be able to ignore prereqs for "Martial" feats, and take epic feats. Worthwhile SR is also important.
-
Save or die doesn't make you a T1, it just makes you a T3 if thats your only trick.
Monks have Save or Die.
-
Save or die doesn't make you a T1, it just makes you a T3 if thats your only trick.
Monks have Save or Die.
A SoD that has the same DC formula as Standstill might be T2. Provided the class is otherwise T3.
-
Save or die doesn't make you a T1, it just makes you a T3 if thats your only trick.
Monks have Save or Die.
That's why it gets tricks like "cut through planes" allowing them to planeshift, and things like "can make items" so it can make boots of flying, shields of gaze attack reflection or whatever is needed for the given situation. "other similar abilities" to plane ut could be "swiftness of the wind" you can run so fast you treat it like the teleport spell.
-
Give them the ability to make a fort save against spells that don't allow saves.
Give them the ability to use their AC as SR a number of times per day.
Give them something PA like that gives them more options (Turn BAB into a penalty against an opponent's SR, perhaps?)
In other words, make them metal.
Curse the lack of a headbanging smiley!
-
I don't know if it's been said, since I didn't read through all the posts, but I think giving the fighter unlimited feats would render them unplayable. Too much choice is bad choice.
-
I don't know if it's been said, since I didn't read through all the posts, but I think giving the fighter unlimited feats would render them unplayable. Too much choice is bad choice.
So...infinite feats, then? That way there's no choice involved! :D
-
I don't know if it's been said, since I didn't read through all the posts, but I think giving the fighter unlimited feats would render them unplayable. Too much choice is bad choice.
So...infinite feats, then? That way there's no choice involved! :D
The problem is that not all feats have entirely positive effects - for example, the Apostate feat gives you SR against all divine spells - but you can't lower it, for example, if you want to be healed. So you're not always automatically better off having a feat than not (although most of the time, admittedly, you are, even if the benefit is shitty for the prize).
-
I don't know if it's been said, since I didn't read through all the posts, but I think giving the fighter unlimited feats would render them unplayable. Too much choice is bad choice.
So...infinite feats, then? That way there's no choice involved! :D
The problem is that not all feats have entirely positive effects - for example, the Apostate feat gives you SR against all divine spells - but you can't lower it, for example, if you want to be healed. So you're not always automatically better off having a feat than not (although most of the time, admittedly, you are, even if the benefit is shitty for the prize).
Ah, but infinite feats=infinite Toughness. No healing needed. :P
-
i think a certain number of feats should do it..... but how many?
wizards break spells, artificers break items, a tier 1 fighter should break feats... maybe items that are found...
X amount of bonus feats per level, that scale with higher levels
maybe free ranks in UMD....
and I like the warblade ability that lets you change weapon specific feats to another weapon every day, that would be appropriate...
-
Taking a page from E6 how about a scale based on the amount of EXP it takes to go to next level. Take the base amount of fighter feats and then give the another feat for every 3k experience they get for example.
-
i think a certain number of feats should do it..... but how many?
It isn't the number of feats that makes feats broken, but the quality of feats that gets broken. Trust me, you could give Wizards the same restrictions for preparing spells that Clerics have and it wouldn't do a thing (other than make them easier to build).
What's broken about spells is how many spells are useful beyond the level you get them at. Grease retains use from 1st to well into 8th or 9th level (and people even prepare it all the way up to 20th level just because some things don't remember to fly). Likewise with Glitterdust.
-
Thats why I decided to add Fighter level to any numeric effect provided by a feat, which means one or two feats should put the fighter pass the effect line of about any effect, Iron will+Luck of heroes would add 43 to his will save. It also allows weird iteration with some feats. This allows the fighter to be a tier 2 monster with the extra feats being thrown at him.
I can't think of a way for a spell caster to really affect him out side of Word spells.
-
No save, no SR effects.
I made a (very sucky) attempt at fixing the fighter, and one of the things I chose to let them do is basically UMD feats.
Another idea (this is just something I thought was neat.): The fighter, and the fighter alone, can apply metamagic to basic attacks, using 2 points of BAB instead of increasing spell level; for example, sacrifice 8 points of BAB to make an attack Fell Draining and Entangling.
Also, Quicken Attack would just be awesomesauce.
Of course, you would have to limit it to BAB you got from the Fighter Class, or maybe make it so only Metamagic you got through class feats can be used with your attacks.
I'm also thinking of a way they could benefit in a unique way from Divine Feats in a unique way; maybe sacrificing attacks...
Edit: Sacrificing attacks could work.
Anyway, I'm just thinking how awesome a fighter who could metaattack would look. Because, even if your DM doesn't allow Dragon, you could always just take Divine Ward to attack an enemy at a range of close instead of touch.
Still SpellAttack would be hilarious too. So would Disguise SpellAttack.
-
Fighter class only feat slots:
(4) ... Immune to Cantrips and Level 1 spells
(6) ... (stacks with above) increase spells effected by +1 level
(8) ... same as level 6 feat
etc
Could choose this or the level 6 feat, hereafter
(14) ... Immune to effects created by Epic Skill check DCs , but not the non-epic stuff (approximation)
at level 20 you basically talking about choosing between
Immunity to level 9s (!!)
or dropping to Immunity to level 8s + Epic skill immunity
or very rarely picking some uber awesome feat that's at least as good as level 9 immunity.
Epic levels
(22) ... pre-req Immune to 9s ; gets Immunity to Meta + up to level 8s
(24) ... pre-reg is (22) ; gets Immunity to Meta 9s
(26) ... pre-reqs ? ; Immune to level 10s
(28) ... pre-req above ; Immune to Epic Spells !!
:)
-
No save, no SR effects.
Which ones?
-
I got it :o , feats are collected as wizards collect spells... as are any other abilities that are physical in nature (ex) AND the DM approves, ie you can't have a dragon train you to fly, or attack with wings(if you don't have them)....
pay a monk to teach you flurry of blows,
have a rogue train you in sneak attack, evasion, trap finding
learn how to rage from a barbarian,
have an NPC teach you the Leadership feat,
learn UMD from a bard, and how to sing.... Edit:(ranks in perform -- not bardic music)
TOB maneuvers are available,
power level should scale easily with your encounters, it is broken but not as broken as a wizard,
this is just a rough brainstorm and the ability would be very carefully worded, what do u guys think?
-
I like it.
Still like my metaattack thingy. It's like Power Attack.
Maybe we can stick it on the superfighter?
If not, I am so making my own fighteresque base class with it...
-
yes but u need to be trained in the meta feats, or they could just go on the fighter list....
quickened, twinned, maximized, still, flurry of blows while raging :lol
i also realized that animal companion is ex
-
How the hell would that look like?
OK, I have an idea on how the mechanic could work: basically, you have a class ability that allows you to turn the most basic form of an ex ability into a feat that you, and you alone, can take.
For example: you walk over to a Barbarian and say, "Hey, teach me how to be angry." Then, next time you can take a feat, you can grab ""Rage as a 1st level Barbarian" as a feat.
Of course, you could then learn improvements on the ability, but of course, there would have to be something that would stop them from, you know, gaining the ability to rage as a 20th level Barbarian at level 3.
Hit dice limit is my solution, but it's most probably a bad one.
As for Metamagic, it would be based off of BAB, at the 2 points of BAB per spell level transition. Then, you could just make a version of Arcane Thesis that works of a certain weapon, and you could really have a favored weapon mechanic.
Of course, Quicken allows you to pull of a single attack as a swift action, and the fun combo of Quicken+Rapid Spell would end up giving you a full attack as a swift action, which is seriously bad ass.
Divine feats could be triggered by a subset of points (which I will refer to as BAMF points), which a fighter gains every other level starting at first.
This would allow the fighter to use Sacred Turning, which would be awesome.
So, anything else we should throw onto Mr. "Breaks the feats and lieks the swords" Fighter?
-
I've done calculations, and a metafighter would be scary.
There is a combo that would let you have infinite attacks at level 4, or some such awesomeness.
-
I've done calculations, and a metafighter would be scary.
nice, that is about the power level I was looking for, :smirk but how to price the training....
maybe if u just get a flat amount of bonus feats by level: 1 @ first, 2 @ second, ...ect..... 19@ 19th and 20 bonus feats @ lvl 20
(suggestions for feat progression are welcome)
feats taken don't need to be on the fighter list
metamagic feats are available as meta-attack feats
feats from the unearthed arcana generic characters are available
Any (ex) ability can permanently take the place of a bonus feat at any time, but the fighter needs to be trained by someone who has the ability.
This training takes a number of days equal to the level that the ability becomes available for the class that is associated with that ability; or, the level of the
trainer(in the classes associated with the ex ability) if the ability uses the number of class levels to function(ie sneak attack, animal companion), whichever is
higher.
Use the rules for hiring cohorts to determine the cost of the training, if the trainer is under the control of the player (cohort, etc...) there is no cost.
If the trainer is a party member, the price can be whatever is agreed upon in gold, item exchange, or other services.
(ex) abilities learned this way progress as if you were a member of that class,
ie sneak attack taken at level 2 works like a level 2 rogue
as you level, the ability increases as if you were a member of the class of the person that you learned the ability from
-
I'm wondering; how would Persistant Attack work? I mean, if we were to count an attack as a touch "spell" with a duration of instantaneous, you could grab Ocular Attack and Lingering Attack/Ray Burst/Persistant Attack to basically do the following with a torch, let's say:
1. Turn an attack from your torch into a 30 ft ray with instantaneous duration.
2. Increase that duration, thus no longer making it instantaneous.
3. Turn that ray into a 30 ft burst.
4. Persist it for an aura that does 1d3 fire damage to anyone within range all day, which you can stack with itself.
I'm also thinking that you could get stuff like vile/cold/negative/sonic damage from a freaking torch, if you play your cards right.
OK, should this uber fighter be able to take and use divine feats through some mechanic or other? I like the one I mentioned earlier, but I'm not unflexible.
-
that stuff looks like alot of fun but, idk how attacks would work like that if they don't have a duration, ..... it feels really magic-y
maybe extend the effects of a splash weapon..... : extended vial of acid would burn longer after being thrown
or things like still, persistant stunning fist: you hit the guy so fast, that no one can even see you move and he is permanently stunned :twitch
maybe the next step is to make a list of metamagic feats and get a consensus of those that could make sense as metaattack
-
Razing Attack would be fun against the tarrasque...
Smiting Spell would be pointless as a meta-attack, right?
My theory is that we should first look at a single attack as a touch spell with an instantaneous duration. Casting time: Standard action.
But it would be awesome to shoot sword-lasers, right? Of course, that would be too magical, but...
-
@Amechra
perhaps the meta-attack fighter can be another alternate class feature as it kind of changes what the fighter is all about,
my intent was to alter the fighter mechanics that are already there and make it (potentially) broken, similar to what the artificer does with magic items
I would, however be interested in collaborating on what will be given up for the two variants so they could be used at the same time
I was going to leave the fighter the same, with the exception of giving up the standard bonus feats for the new feat progression and the ability to trade in feats
for other feats or (ex) abilities that make sense
maybe if you have the metaattack fighter have a smaller HD or sumthing that would make it more like a caster,
or maybe model it after the duskblade "give up" the d10 HD for a D12 HD, keep the high BaB and add UMD, and some other caster like skills, then just make meta attack
available for feats,,,,, or sumthing like that
I think this would be best for flavor reasons
-
@ Amechra
u know what? screw it,
feats are what a fighter "does" so the meta attack feats are in, so are (ex) abilities that don't make sense, so you can now learn DR and spell resistance from monsters
(if you can get them to agree to it)
but I think I gave too many feats
maybe levels 1-5 one bonus feat per level
levels 6-10 two bonus feats per level
levels 11-15 three bonus feats per level
levels 16-20 four bonus feats per level
epic follows progression (+1 every 5 levels)
now to balance meta-attack :banghead we need some kind of give-take; similar to what real casters have to do +1 slot higher etc...
perhaps subtract attack bonus for meta attack? similar to power attack? each meta attack feat added to a specific attack stacks for how much attack bonus to loose
also I think sword rays could be explained if your body moves to the location that you attacked with the ray ( you ran really really fast and attacked every1 in a line)
or a great-sword aura, any time an enemy takes damage from your aura you move to a square adjacent to that enemy( again you just move really fast and hit any1 in that area)
what u guys think?
Edit: I'm going to update the first post soon with the new mod, any suggestions would be appreciated
also what should I call it, Meta-ex fighter? idk....
-
I already thought of it as a Power Attack based system, but of course, we can't have any feats that reduce it; otherwise, you could just spam like no tomorrow.
I love the idea of you just being that good as an explanation of a sword ray. I'm also personally thinking we should just take the feats one by one and alter them, because I just thought of a way to convert stuff to rays; you sprint to attack, and then you make a jump check to see if you can get back t where you started.
That's just a thought though. I'll work on some meta-attacks.
meta-ex fighter is a decent name, though I would like to go with Project B.A.M.F. as a placeholder name.
-
How do "A thousand billion feats" and "Is really good at combat" provide tier 1 power levels, when my suggestion of "Auto kills people he attacks" does not.
I just cut the crap, and say "The fighter will kill anyone he hits" and move on to the other (more obvious and bigger) problems. EX: the item creation, and the "Cool powers left specifically open, but mandated to be at least as good and utilitarian as planeshift"
Most people don't even bother with the argument that the fighter can't contribute in melee, (He can't, because even if super opt-ed he can kill like 1 dude a round, and tier 1's should do this with little to no effort) but move on to the easier to make arguments.
1-When not in a fight, a fighter gets to stand around and occasionally say "I look physically imposing" unless the DM has been known to ask for intimidate rolls
2- When an enemy is more mobile then him (Always) he can't do a thing about it, unless specced to be an archer. Which is usually not the best option.
3- The fighter is more item Dependant than any other class in the game. Except maybe the monk, but that isn't really a class anyway.
Tier 1- According to Jaron K should be "Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing. Often capable of solving encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought from the player. Has world changing powers at high levels. These guys, if played well, can break a campaign and can be very hard to challenge without extreme DM fiat, especially if Tier 3s and below are in the party."
Capable of doing absolutely everything. He should be able to locate any foe, get to any foe, kill any foe, and basically anything else you can come up with for a PC to do in a DND game. Locate any foe, he needs things like "I can intimidate people like a mad man. Or they are so impressed by my leadership abilities they just want to tell me, but its not magic or anything". to get to any foe he needs the ability to fly, true seeing, teleportation, plane shifting, elemental immunity. To kill any foe, he needs to be able to stay with a more mobile foe, short range teleportation, flight, slow auras, and he needs to be able to do damage in magnitudes that actually matter. After the heal spell is available, this number is X where X = the enemies HP at full. He also needs to be able to overcome DR of all sorts. Cut the crap and say he just auto kills, just like his tier 1 cousins.
-
Here
Tier 1 Fighter Mod
Skill Points 4+, add listen, spot, diplomacy, Gather info, heal, knowledge local, perform, profession, sense motive as class skills.
Level 1- Face Cutting - Choose One.
Two Handed Weapons - You can cut people's faces off with melee attacks. If they hit, the opponent must roll a Fort save or die. DC = 10 + Fighter Levels + Cha Mod
Two Weapon Fighting - You can cut people's faces off with lots of melee attacks. If they hit, the opponent must roll a Fort save or die. DC = 10 + ½ Fighter Levels + Cha Mod
Shielded Fighting - You can cut people's faces off with melee attacks while saving your own. If they hit, the opponent must roll a Fort save or die. DC = 10 + ½ Fighter Levels + Cha Mod. You add your Cha mod to saves against this power.
Ranged- You can shoot people's faces off with attacks. If they hit, the opponent must roll a fort save or die. DC 10 + ½ Fighter levels +cha mod
Level 1- Feat changes
You get a feat every level. They can be any feat, even epic ones. If they say fighter bonus feats, congrats you can ignore all prereqs except for other feats. (except diehard, dodge, and toughness, you can ignore those.) Lastly, if you spend an hour meditating in the morning you can swap all your fighter feats for new ones.
Level 1- SR
You gain SR equal to your character level +10. You can turn it on or off as a free action.
Level 2- Super Human Stamina.
You heal an amount of fast healing equal to your fighter level/2.
Level 5- Super Smith
You can make appropriate magic items; weapons, armors, rings, and generally things that need forging are ok. Robe and wands are not. Ask your DM before you begin construction. You count as a wizard who knows the correct spell for doing this even though you are not. You also get the artificer crafting pool from now on at the same rate as them.
Level 6- Natural Born Leader
You get leadership. The feat.
Level 10, 12, 14, 16, 18- Cool Powers.
Pick one power at each of the above levels. Not more than once on the same one though.
1- “Cut through reality” You can cast plane shift. Use your sword and cut through the (Insert whatever cosmology you use here)
2- “It’s a Bird” You gain a fly speed equal to your move speed.
3- “You can move underwater as though you weren’t. Even arrows you shoot work fine. Also you don’t need air.
4- “Ghost faced Killaaaaa” You can become incorporeal at will.
5- “That’s broken” Each of your successful attacks also casts MDJ targeted on your specific foe. CL and DC = 10 + 1/2Fighter level + Cha mod.
6- “Stone Cold Stare” You can cast Dominate Monster just by looking at someone. Treat as a gaze attack, with a DC= 10 + ½ fighter level + Cha mod.
7- “And Stay Dead” When you kill something, you immediately cast Soul Bind as a free action. CL/DC= 10 + ½ Fighter level + Cha mod.
8- “You wouldn’t like me when I’m angry. You are always under the effect of “the shape change spell”. You know CL and DC.
9- “Faster than a what now?” Cast Time Stop at will.
10- “Dance for me” Cast Otto’s Irresistible Dance at will.
Level 11- Super Super Human Stamina
Your fast healing becomes regeneration.
Level 20- Can't die anymore.
If something would kill you it doesn't. (Face cutting overrides this power, pretend it’s like highlander or something)
Notes
Skills – Skills that let them contribute out of combat, for investigative purposes. Because everyone knows town guards are warriors but their leaders are fighters. Cops ought to be loosely good at sense motive and the like.
Face Cutting - You will note two handed weapon users get a higher save DC, but there will be less a round. Good for when you know its feasible for you to beat them. Two weapons and archers are for when you are spamming hoping the enemy rolls a 1. Shields are good at defending against this ability.
Feats- No longer stuck with unwanted ones, and you can experiment a bit.
Item making- Make whatever items you need for way cheaper than other people, make what you need in addition to loot found.
Good powers- Now you’ve got some utility.
Leadership- Fighters at level 6+ should be someone people know, and a force to be reckoned with. Maybe even training people to fight.
-
ok, krusk, lets make him more versatile,
you can trade in your feats each day as long as you qualify, (just like casters do with spells)
any (EX) ability you have witnessed can take the place of any feat you chose at the time that you trade in feats that day
-
So the fighter player is expected to ask the DM after every ability "Was that an EX ability I can clone?" and then log every Ex ability he sees something do? So he doesn't forget "Hey I saw someone rage once, 14 sessions ago".
That seems like very little reward for a lot of work.
How would you go about making a fighter at level 2+. Do you just ask the DM "Hey can I have seen a barbarian once before" or do you have to suck it up, and not pick any handy features that were supposed to bring you to tier 1? Seems awkward. (See archivist and paladin/ranger/divine bard scrolls)
I opened up hyperlink srd and went to the first monster I felt like, the http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/athach.htm It has an EX poison ability on its bite attack. Are all fighters also going to be able to add poison damage when they bite someone? If so do they gain the bite attack, or does it only apply to a natural bite attack they may have? Do you plan to limit it to only things normally obtainable by a PC? What about monsters as characters, or races with LA's and Hit die? Is there a max you plan to use?
Lastly, having more ways to kill people doesn't make you more versitile. What you need are the "Utility" powers that are super awesome. Things like plane shift, time stop, shape change, and dominate monster.
-
What if you stole builds, class features, and ideas wholesale from 4e fighters and just converted the damage to scale better with 3.x and changed the to-hits, saves, and stuff?
-
Still wouldn't do it. It'd wind up around the region of the Warblade, if at that.
-
Add 10 to the first level Spell Resistance. Remember that it's effectively a DC for spellcasters to roll against using a d20 + caster level.
SR1 would be beaten 100% of the time by a L1 WIzard.
-
Make the SR equal to X^X, where X is your fighter level.
SR 27 at level 3, going up to SR 1.048576 × 10^26 at level 20...
:D
-
so, I guess the consensus is, there is no easy way to fudge numbers/abilities that already exist to make a fighter tier 1
I believe my (EX) fighter would be high tier 3, and the meta-attack would push it into low tier 2 if we could find a good enough EX ability to spam with applied meta-attack.
eventually I'll get around to writing the base class specifics and editing them into the first post , I am just extremely busy right now
at least we raised the fighter a couple tiers....
but, buy all means new ideas are welcome, I would really be interested in an EX ability that can break the game in ways that spell casting can and how they could interact with a meta-attack modification to meta magic
-
It's not numbers that makes a Tier 1 or Tier 2, big numbers just prevent you from falling into Tier 5(since theres at least ONE thing you can do insanely well). You can have Infinity stats and still stay at Tier 4.
-
You can have Infinity stats and still stay at Tier 4.
Well, you would have access to various epic uses of Jump, Balance, Climb, Escape Artist, and other skills, so that would at least let you mimic a couple of spell effects by awesomeness alone. And you'd have a 95% chance to deal infinite damage if you get in range. ;)
-
so, I guess the consensus is, there is no easy way to fudge numbers/abilities that already exist to make a fighter tier 1
Numbers get you to Tier 4. But it takes actual abilities to make the next jump up to Tier 3.
You want an EX ability that breaks the game? Try THE GAME.
-
Try THE GAME.
Thanks. I just lost.
Does that make me tier 6?
-
Try THE GAME.
Thanks. I just lost.
Does that make me tier 6?
Tier 7.
-
Try THE GAME.
Thanks. I just lost.
Does that make me tier 6?
Tier 7.
And that's a bad tier. We're talking Jack Chick tier.
-
Try THE GAME.
Thanks. I just lost.
Does that make me tier 6?
Probably.
Tier 7.
And that's a bad tier. We're talking Jack Chick tier.
Jack Chick is in the ¿Tier
-
so, I guess the consensus is, there is no easy way to fudge numbers/abilities that already exist to make a fighter tier 1
Numbers get you to Tier 4. But it takes actual abilities to make the next jump up to Tier 3.
I think a really wide range of really high stats gets you to tier 3, just on the basis of what really high stats allow you to do. If you can jump that 150 meter chasm, escape artist through the crack on the ground type of things.
-
so, I guess the consensus is, there is no easy way to fudge numbers/abilities that already exist to make a fighter tier 1
Numbers get you to Tier 4. But it takes actual abilities to make the next jump up to Tier 3.
I think a really wide range of really high stats gets you to tier 3, just on the basis of what really high stats allow you to do. If you can jump that 150 meter chasm, escape artist through the crack on the ground type of things.
I view the ELH as Discontinuity.
-
so, I guess the consensus is, there is no easy way to fudge numbers/abilities that already exist to make a fighter tier 1
Numbers get you to Tier 4. But it takes actual abilities to make the next jump up to Tier 3.
I think a really wide range of really high stats gets you to tier 3, just on the basis of what really high stats allow you to do. If you can jump that 150 meter chasm, escape artist through the crack on the ground type of things.
I view the ELH as Discontinuity.
Even with out it I think tier 3 is a reasonable tier for it.
-
Even with out it I think tier 3 is a reasonable tier for it.
i.e. "stuff Fighters can't do".
-
With infinity stats and ELH rules, you got a case for a borderline Tier 3 that is at the same time completely overpowered.
-
With infinity stats and ELH rules, you got a case for a borderline Tier 3 that is at the same time completely overpowered.
You don't need infinite stats, just high enough ones. Adding level to Attacks, AC, Skills, Damage, checks and Saves will probably do it. While I'm at it HP per level(+210 hp at 20, +15 at 5 ). Probably still overpowered.
-
Hideously so, but one dimensionally. They aren't any higher tier until they are taking epic skill uses(which are technically 3.0) as a matter of course.