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The Thinktank => Min/Max It! => : Black Knight August 13, 2010, 03:25:10 PM

: Awesome Tripping Combo
: Black Knight August 13, 2010, 03:25:10 PM
Orginally posted in the Ask a Simple Question thread:

Q118:  Let's say your character has Power Attack, Improved Trip and Cleave.  Now when you trip an opponent, Improved Trip gives you a free attack as if you hadn't used your attack to trip.

Does Cleave then grant you a free attack against another opponent because you 'dropped' the opponent you tripped?
Cleave only grants you another attack when you take someone to negatives, or 0 in the case of undead, constructs, etc.

Ok... so more specifically:

CLEAVE [GENERAL]
You can follow through with powerful blows.
Prerequisites: Str 13, Power Attack.
Benefit: If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it), you get an immediate, extra melee attack against another creature within reach. You cannot take a 5-foot step before making this extra attack.  The extra attack is with the same weapon and at the same bonus as the attack that dropped the previous creature. You can use this ability once per round.

So obviously, dealing enough damage to a creature can make it drop.  

What other ways are there to make a creature drop?

... and does Tripping count as another way?
: Re: How can you make a creature 'drop'?
: Rymosrac August 13, 2010, 03:29:51 PM
RAI, pretty sure they meant to render them unconscious or dead.

RAW, there is no "dropped" condition.
: Re: How can you make a creature 'drop'?
: Bastian August 13, 2010, 03:30:24 PM
The reason it has to drop is the damage you dealt to it, so no it doesn't work.

You can follow through with powerful blows.
Prerequisites: Str 13, Power Attack.
Benefit: If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it), you get an immediate, extra melee attack against another creature within reach. You cannot take a 5-foot step before making this extra attack.  The extra attack is with the same weapon and at the same bonus as the attack that dropped the previous creature. You can use this ability once per round.
: Re: How can you make a creature 'drop'?
: Maat_Mons August 13, 2010, 03:39:16 PM
You might be able to use the feat if you deal enough damage to make a creature's nonlethal damage equal its current hit points or if you deal 50 or more points of damage with a single attack and the creature fails its fortitude save. 
: Re: How can you make a creature 'drop'?
: Hallack August 13, 2010, 04:18:24 PM
Benefit: If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop  (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it)

So "enough damage to make it drop" happens to be 0.  With that test it would fly.

Question: Does the "drop" have to be from "damage"?  
Answer: Yes

Question:  Does the damage have to drop the foe below 0 hit points?
Answer: No, this is just the typical trigger.

Question:  Can the amount of damage dealt to make something drop be 0 points?

Question: Can actions like Tripping drop a foe in a way that triggers cleave?

Question:  What other methods are there to make a foe "drop" while doing damage?

Edit: Also, I think perhaps this thread should be renamed Awesome Tripping Cleave combo or some such.  Might get more opinions that way :)

: Re: How can you make a creature 'drop'?
: Bastian August 13, 2010, 04:37:17 PM
Benefit: If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop  (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it)

So "enough damage to make it drop" happens to be 0.  With that test it would fly.

Question: Does the "drop" have to be from "damage"?  
Answer: Yes

Question:  Does the damage have to drop the foe below 0 hit points?
Answer: No, this is just the typical trigger.

Question:  Can the amount of damage dealt to make something drop be 0 points?

Question: Can actions like Tripping drop a foe in a way that triggers cleave?

Question:  What other methods are there to make a foe "drop" while doing damage?

Edit: Also, I think perhaps this thread should be renamed Awesome Tripping Cleave combo or some such.  Might get more opinions that way :)


It's not that trip attacks deal 0 damage and can thus be consider damage for triggering cleave. They instead don't deal damage at all and aren't even vaguely related to damage.

0 damage would for example be doing hitting a person with 3/- with a 1d2 weapon without any bonuses. Something that is no way related to damage would for example be speaking to someone in a normal voice.
: Re: Awesome Tripping Combo
: Black Knight August 13, 2010, 04:38:19 PM
Thread renamed just for Hallack.
: Re: Awesome Tripping Combo
: Black Knight August 13, 2010, 04:45:43 PM
As a free action you can Drop Prone. PHB 144

- This is essentially what happens when you 'drop' a creature.  You force them to Drop Prone.

A tripped character is prone. PHB 159

So even though no damage is dealt with the Trip, you still force your opponent to Drop Prone.
: Re: Awesome Tripping Combo
: Bastian August 13, 2010, 04:56:04 PM
As a free action you can Drop Prone. PHB 144

- This is essentially what happens when you 'drop' a creature.  You force them to Drop Prone.

A tripped character is prone. PHB 159

So even though no damage is dealt with the Trip, you still force your opponent to Drop Prone.
You still aren't dealing anything remotely close to damage, so it doesn't work. If you can find an ability that allows a person to be tripped based on damage then it would work.
: Re: Awesome Tripping Combo
: Sohala August 13, 2010, 05:31:32 PM
Would flaming/frost/etc fill you damage hole? It would then be dropping and taking damage.
: Re: Awesome Tripping Combo
: Rymosrac August 13, 2010, 05:48:26 PM
Not definitive that the touch attack for tripping counts as a hit for granting bonus damage from those abilities, IMO. Could be called both ways.
: Re: Awesome Tripping Combo
: Bastian August 13, 2010, 06:02:42 PM
Would flaming/frost/etc fill you damage hole? It would then be dropping and taking damage.
The damage has to be the cause of the trip. You can't just add damage to a trip because that would just be the trip causing them to drop and the flames/frost/etc. causing damage.
: Re: Awesome Tripping Combo
: Maat_Mons August 13, 2010, 06:06:44 PM
Knock-down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown) allows you to trip a foe as a consequence of dealing damage. 
: Re: Awesome Tripping Combo
: Rymosrac August 13, 2010, 06:40:11 PM
Though the trip attack to actually strip them is still separate from the attack which deals the damage.

Edit: Hrm. Yes. Well then.
: Re: Awesome Tripping Combo
: Maat_Mons August 13, 2010, 07:22:26 PM
Yes, being rendered prone is an indirect result of the damage rather than a direct result.  It is unclear if that distinction is relevant.  I'm not sold on rendering someone prone counting as dropping him, but supposing it does, knock-down seems to provide the most plausible argument. 
: Re: Awesome Tripping Combo
: Bastian August 13, 2010, 07:22:50 PM
Knock-down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown) allows you to trip a foe as a consequence of dealing damage.  
The problem is that it lets you perform a trip attempt as a consequence of dealing damage, not directly tripping them as a result of doing damage. This feat requires "you (to) deal a creature enough damage to make it drop" so the damage has to directly cause the dropping.

@Rymosrac: One would hope that the stripping is separate from the attack or that's sexual assault.  :P
: Re: Awesome Tripping Combo
: carnivore August 13, 2010, 07:31:00 PM
from what i can see ... i am inclined to go with McPoyos reading:

"Cleave only grants you another attack when you take someone to negatives, or 0 in the case of undead, constructs, etc."

the only thing that also might trigger it (stretching what i would allow) ... would be an attack that did Nonlethal Damage that resulted in Unconsciousness

if you are able to convince your DM of your Interpretation ... go for it .... i personally would not allow it to be interpreted that way

 :D
: Re: Awesome Tripping Combo
: Maat_Mons August 13, 2010, 08:33:02 PM
The problem is that it lets you perform a trip attempt as a consequence of dealing damage, not directly tripping them as a result of doing damage.

Being rendered prone is a result of the trip, and being tripped is a result of the damage, so being rendered prone is a result of the damage, albeit indirectly.  I don't think we disagree on this exactly, I just want to emphasize that an indirect result is a kind of result.  

… so the damage has to directly cause the dropping.

I have already said that whether dropping a creature can be an indirect result of the damage is not clear from the wording.  If you feel this restriction can be inferred, you should make an actual argument to that effect.  

While we're on the subject, would dieing because you failed the fortitude save you have to make after taking 50 or more points of damage from a single hit be a direct or indirect result of the damage?  I think indirect, since there's a check made between taking the damage and applying the effect.  

the only thing that also might trigger it (stretching what i would allow) ... would be an attack that did

So you're thinking no on the massive damage thing?  Are you saying that because it's indirect?  

As a free action you can Drop Prone.

So, dropping is a way someone can become prone.  This doesn't prove that dropping is the only way to become prone.  Without that, you can't say that, just because someone is prone, he must have dropped. 
: Re: Awesome Tripping Combo
: Bastian August 13, 2010, 08:40:11 PM
The problem is that it lets you perform a trip attempt as a consequence of dealing damage, not directly tripping them as a result of doing damage.

Being rendered prone is a result of the trip, and being tripped is a result of the damage, so being rendered prone is a result of the damage, albeit indirectly.  I don't think we disagree on this exactly, I just want to emphasize that an indirect result is a kind of result.  
The problem is that it isn't even that direct. Being rendered prone is a result of a successful trip and being able to initiate the trip attempt is a result of the damage. So your dealing enough damage to allow a trip attempt, not "enough damage to make it drop."

That sentence forces the dropping to be a direct result of the damage since it's not "enough damage to make you able to drop it or to make it drop from a fortitude save" it's "enough damage to make it drop." You're the one who needs to prove otherwise.
: Re: Awesome Tripping Combo
: Maat_Mons August 13, 2010, 09:10:44 PM
You're the one who needs to prove otherwise.

If you had paid attention to my posts you would know that the position I advance is “it's unclear.”  Proving that indirect results are OK actually runs against my position exactly as much as proving that indirect results are not OK.  I am absolutely not obligated to prove anything that runs counter to my position.  

You have claimed a definitive answer can be inferred from the text, therefore you have something to prove.  I have claimed only that your arguments are unconvincing, without ever claiming that the opposite position is correct, therefore I have nothing to prove.  
: Re: Awesome Tripping Combo
: carnivore August 13, 2010, 09:20:02 PM
the only thing that also might trigger it (stretching what i would allow) ... would be an attack that did

So you're thinking no on the massive damage thing?  Are you saying that because it's indirect?  

if the Target Dies as a result from Massive Damage, then that would also trigger it .... dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it, whatever causes these results triggers Cleave

 :D
: Re: Awesome Tripping Combo
: Bastian August 13, 2010, 09:34:57 PM
You're the one who needs to prove otherwise.

If you had paid attention to my posts you would know that the position I advance is “it's unclear.”  Proving that indirect results are OK actually runs against my position exactly as much as proving that indirect results are not OK.  I am absolutely not obligated to prove anything that runs counter to my position.  

You have claimed a definitive answer can be inferred from the text, therefore you have something to prove.  I have claimed only that your arguments are unconvincing, without ever claiming that the opposite position is correct, therefore I have nothing to prove.  
If you had paid attention to my posts you would know that I was trying to get you to prove that it's in anyway unclear beyond just stating so. Proving so would make your position look in any way valid. Thus you are absolutely obligated to prove it if you want others to listen to you.

You have claimed that no definitive answer can be inferred from the text, therefore you have something to prove.  I have claimed only that your arguments are unconvincing, since you are claiming that the opposite position could possibly be correct,  while I have already proven my point you haven't proven that your point has a leg to stand on.

PS: Yes, I'm mocking your post. If you want to prove that it's unclear you need to refute my statement, not just say lines like 'it's unclear so you need to prove it.' Seriously, claiming you don't need to defend your side because you think it could go either way without proving it is just douchebaggery.
: Re: Awesome Tripping Combo
: Sohala August 13, 2010, 10:11:12 PM
If you kill a prone target, does cleave allow for another hit. If it does allow another hit, then "dropping" is not dropping to prone.
: Re: Awesome Tripping Combo
: Maat_Mons August 13, 2010, 11:02:03 PM
Seriously, claiming you don't need to defend your side because you think it could go either way without proving it is just douchebaggery.

Uncertainty is very much a default and it is only claims of certainty which must be proven.  I don't know next weeks winning lottery numbers, but there is no way I can prove to you that I don't know.  If I picked numbers that did not win, you could claim I had picked wrong on purpose to throw you off.  I ask you, how can I possibly prove to you that I don't know a thing? 

So yes, I advance the claim that I have read the rules and cannot infer anything from them that proves this in either direction.  I have offered you no proof that I cannot infer such a thing because there is no conceivable way to offer proof.  But, do you seriously think I would pretend not to see an implication if I saw it? 

I have never said that you are wrong, only that the arguments you have provided are not sufficient to prove you right.  This is because every argument you have made is predicated on the idea that the phrase “make it drop” implies a kind of directness that I can't see in the phrase.  I have told you I cannot see this directness, but your responses don't seem to address that. 

In fact, you efforts seemed primarily focused toward convincing me that knock-down renders a creature prone only indirectly as a result of damage, something I said myself in reply number 14 before you ever brought it up.  That is, right up until reply number 18 where you switched to demanding that the position “I can't see how to prove this one way or the other” be supported by proof.  Followed shortly by calling me a douche bag. 

So look,  I can't see how to prove this one way or the other.  It's fundamentally impossible for me to share my lack of insight with you.  You say you can see how to prove this.  If that is true, it should be possible for you to share your insight with me.  This is the source of what you perceive to be a double standard.  I can't see any way around it. 

Now, my response to you was based on my perception that you were asking me to prove that the proposed trick works.  Since I have never said it works, I was incensed at that.  If you were instead asking me to prove uncertainty, then you were merely making an impossible request and not grossly misunderstanding everything I have said.  If that is the case, I apologize for my antagonistic tone. 

If it matters to you, I'm inclined to think the trick doesn't work.  The only reason I haven't tried to provide an argument against it is because I can't think of a way to prove it doesn't work.  I'm not cloaking myself in neutrality to try to shoot arguments against the trick.  You'll notice that I pointed out a flaw in the argument for counting tripping as dropping in reply number 17.  I only haven't been as vocal about the lack of proof in favor of the trick because no one is trying to engage me in a heated argument about it. 
: Re: Awesome Tripping Combo
: SorO_Lost August 14, 2010, 12:09:35 AM
So obviously, dealing enough damage to a creature can make it drop.  

1. What other ways are there to make a creature drop?

2. ... and does Tripping count as another way?
1. nonlethal damage, ability damage, augmentation of energy drain to the weapon, sleep inducing poison carried by a weapon all come to my mind.
However upon rereading of the feat, "If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop" is a real stickler. Simply dealing damage is not the same as dealing enough damage to knock them down. So adding a save vs prone effect, such as awesome blow or poison, won't work.
Also Knock-Back would not have worked if just dealing damage was enough anyway, the feat grants the ability to make a free action trip, it is resolved separately from the original attack.

2. No, see above.
: Re: Awesome Tripping Combo
: spacemonkey555 August 14, 2010, 06:33:18 AM
So obviously, dealing enough damage to a creature can make it drop.  

1. What other ways are there to make a creature drop?

2. ... and does Tripping count as another way?
1. nonlethal damage, ability damage, augmentation of energy drain to the weapon, sleep inducing poison carried by a weapon all come to my mind.
However upon rereading of the feat, "If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop" is a real stickler. Simply dealing damage is not the same as dealing enough damage to knock them down. So adding a save vs prone effect, such as awesome blow or poison, won't work.
Also Knock-Back would not have worked if just dealing damage was enough anyway, the feat grants the ability to make a free action trip, it is resolved separately from the original attack.

2. No, see above.


seems as if knock-back sets the damage to potentially make the creature drop to 10, not the creature's remaining hitpoints, and the fact that you have to resolve a trip attempt doesnt negate the fact that dealing 10 points of damage let you "drop" the creature

its clear cleave was poorly worded, and rai is that reducing the mob to 0 or less hps or flat out killing it triggers a cleave, but as written dealing enough damage (which can be 10 thru knock-back) to knock it down (with a successful trip attempt) suffices
: Re: Awesome Tripping Combo
: raith0 August 14, 2010, 09:23:49 AM
i think the real crutch of either argument is the fact that as worded Cleave is vague and poorly written (now how many times have we said that).  to be honest i think the intention of the feat was to get you an extra attack whenever you killed something (by any possible melee means) but as written it would be up to DM interpritation and players inturpritation.  i dont think i would let some one get an extra attack from tripping because of how abusive it would become.  but thats me and probably the DMs i play with.  your milage may vary


Ron
: Re: Awesome Tripping Combo
: SorO_Lost August 14, 2010, 10:39:33 AM
i think the real crutch of either argument is the fact that as worded Cleave is vague and poorly written (now how many times have we said that).  to be honest i think the intention of the feat was to get you an extra attack whenever you killed something (by any possible melee means) but as written it would be up to DM interpritation and players inturpritation.  i dont think i would let some one get an extra attack from tripping because of how abusive it would become.  but thats me and probably the DMs i play with.  your milage may vary
Creatures don't die at -1HP (which is when they drop and cleave can trigger) nor will they die if nonlethal damage is used (either by choice or regeneration).

It is a little harder to define things than it looks at first glance.
: Re: Awesome Tripping Combo
: zaulsiin August 14, 2010, 01:36:36 PM
Ignoring the rules for a second, if you think it out logically, one could only cleave into a new target if the initial target were somehow removed from your weapon's path. If you go by that logic, anything that forces your opponent out of your path could theoretically allow a cleave (including things like the Brutal Surge weapon enhancement).

Now I can't claim to have any insight into the designer's intentions, but the flavor seems to be that if you swing your weapon so hard that it clears an obstacle from the weapon's path, then you may continue with the original momentum of the swing and hit an additional target. That being said, I really don't think a standard trip attempt would qualify, as you aren't hacking at your opponent with a ton of force, so much as you're simply trying to push them off balance. Knock-down, however, would seem to qualify as you are hitting them normally, and you just happen to know how to use the force of that hit to put them on the ground.

I'm still not personally sure which side of the issue that I'd come down on if I were DM'ing, but a case could clearly be made for either side.
: Re: Awesome Tripping Combo
: zugschef August 14, 2010, 02:34:54 PM
to me it makes perfect sense that knock-down can trigger cleave. but i do understand the argument against it.
: Re: Awesome Tripping Combo
: BruceLeeroy August 14, 2010, 04:00:05 PM
Sword and Fist Errata


p. 7, Knockdown
Insert to end of Benefit:


Use of this feat cannot be combined with Improved Trip to generate an extra attack, and successful use of this feat does not grant an extra attack through the Cleave or Great Cleave feats.
Insert may into “you may make a trip attack as a free action.”
After “whenever you deal 10 or more points of damage to your opponent in melee” insert: with a single attack

Edit: yes, this came up in game and I was forced to check the errata to prevent a expansioned(huge), reach weapon wielding, thicket of blades PC from getting a million attacks on everything. This was, of course, during a warfare based campaign revolving around large scale battles, so before the errata was checked, he was able to jump into the middle of 30 enemies and smash them all with great cleave, knockdown and improved trip.
: Re: Awesome Tripping Combo
: SorO_Lost August 14, 2010, 09:33:27 PM
I already reached my own conclusion Knock Down won't work (see first post in here by me).

Awesome Blow on the other hand which does directly add a save vs prone effect to your attack I thought would. Got errata on that?
: Re: Awesome Tripping Combo
: PlzBreakMyCampaign August 14, 2010, 09:58:47 PM
carn is right here. They could have said "max hp - (nonlethal + lethal damage) provided temporary hp is not positive".... but that would be too complicated for a people trying to learn core.
: Re: Awesome Tripping Combo
: Solo September 13, 2010, 10:17:08 AM
Sword and Fist Errata


p. 7, Knockdown
Insert to end of Benefit:


Use of this feat cannot be combined with Improved Trip to generate an extra attack, and successful use of this feat does not grant an extra attack through the Cleave or Great Cleave feats.
Insert may into “you may make a trip attack as a free action.”
After “whenever you deal 10 or more points of damage to your opponent in melee” insert: with a single attack
Pssst. 3.0 Errata never made it into the 3.5 republishing of the Knock Down feat.
: Re: Awesome Tripping Combo
: Rebel7284 September 13, 2010, 10:49:05 AM
Pssst. 3.0 Errata never made it into the 3.5 republishing of the Knock Down feat.

Last I checked, the Knock Down feat never made it to 3.5.

There is Knockback from Races of Stone, but that's different =)
: Re: Awesome Tripping Combo
: jameswilliamogle September 13, 2010, 01:24:02 PM
Its in the 3.5 SRD without errata.  Also Miniature's Handbook (IDK what edition MH is, though).
: Re: Awesome Tripping Combo
: McPoyo September 13, 2010, 01:38:35 PM
Its in the 3.5 SRD without errata.  Also Miniature's Handbook (IDK what edition MH is, though).
MH is 3.0 almost 3.5. It's not Pseudo3.5 like SS and BoVD though.
: Re: Awesome Tripping Combo
: jameswilliamogle September 13, 2010, 01:51:32 PM
Would a Spellstoring Weapon with a sleep spell released at the time it struck an opponent activate Cleave (or a sleep poison, for that matter)? 

That seems super-hairy, to me...  Not sure what RAI is in this case.

Almost no doubt that Imp Trip wasn't intended to activate Cleave, though.
: Re: Awesome Tripping Combo
: Hallack September 13, 2010, 01:59:31 PM
Its in the 3.5 SRD without errata.  Also Miniature's Handbook (IDK what edition MH is, though).

Just looked and do not see it in the Miniatures Handbook.
: Re: Awesome Tripping Combo
: jameswilliamogle September 13, 2010, 03:05:12 PM
Oh!  My bad...  That's Pushback...  Totally different...
There's a thread over on 339 about this...
: Re: Awesome Tripping Combo
: Black Knight September 13, 2010, 11:43:23 PM
typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it

So does anyone have any ideas of another way you would 'drop' someone other than reducing their hit points below 0 or killing them?

There has to be at least 1 other way, otherwise they wouldn't have used the word, typically.
: Re: Awesome Tripping Combo
: The_Mad_Linguist September 13, 2010, 11:53:04 PM
Nonlethal damage.
: Re: Awesome Tripping Combo
: Jopustopin September 14, 2010, 01:44:59 AM
I'd like to add my two cents without having read the discussion.  We're talking about a "Melee" type trying to get a "free" attack by taking advantage of the ambiguous term "dropping" an opponent.  

I'd like to say that, as a DM, I don't think I'd care all that much as long as the Cleave attack was on someone other than the target tripped.  My reason for thinking that is, quite frankly, Cleave sucks.

Let's look at the feat "Curling Wave Strike" from Stormreach.  It allows you to make a second cleave trip attempt.  Isn't that quite like how cleave would work in this instance?  Instead of making a cleave attack you make a second trip attack.  

House ruling it, I'd say Cleave would work quite like Curling Wave Strike.  
: Re: Awesome Tripping Combo
: Saeomon September 14, 2010, 03:21:02 AM
typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it

So does anyone have any ideas of another way you would 'drop' someone other than reducing their hit points below 0 or killing them?

There has to be at least 1 other way, otherwise they wouldn't have used the word, typically.

This. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaCodgL9cvk)
: Re: Awesome Tripping Combo
: Benly September 14, 2010, 04:57:27 AM
Nonlethal damage.

Also a Spell Storing weapon loaded with any spell that renders the target unconscious. A Prismatic Burst weapon has a chance of turning its target to stone on a crit, but I'm not sure if that qualifies as "dropped".