Brilliant Gameologists Forum

The Thinktank => Min/Max It! => : Amechra August 10, 2010, 12:38:47 AM

: Why?
: Amechra August 10, 2010, 12:38:47 AM
I've always wondered why Vinestrike, Gravestrike, and that one spell that let's you SA constructs aren't on the Assassin spell list.

I mean, why do wizards who can't SA naturally, and need a feat to get a spell that let's them SA get it, but the Assassin does not?
: Re: Why?
: Solo August 10, 2010, 12:42:52 AM
Because Wizards is an idiot.
: Re: Why?
: Ikeren August 10, 2010, 01:08:47 AM
Because there are lots of ways to gain spells that aren't traditionally on your list or abilities that aren't traditionally a part of your class?
: Re: Why?
: PhaedrusXY August 10, 2010, 01:18:19 AM
Because Wizards is an idiot.
This. Although it's only a DC 20 check to activate a wand, and wands use the same action as the spell they contain to cast. So that's certainly a viable option, especially if you stick them in wand chambers on your weapon(s) and/or shield.
: Re: Why?
: Kuroimaken August 10, 2010, 01:21:43 AM
Because that's what houserules are for?
: Re: Why?
: Amechra August 10, 2010, 01:24:28 AM
I'm just wondering, because I'm thinking about planning to make an Assassin's Handbook, unless there already is one. I also think they should get Hunter's Eye (you know, SA dice =1/3 CL? That's not overpowered for someone who's normal CL caps at 10. And it would be useful and flavorful. Grumble.)

The fact that the ranger get's such nice things (Hunter's Mercy, Hunter's Eye, and the like) makes me believe that our friendly neighborhood rangers are actually bounty hunters, trained to track down and kill pretty much anything.

I knew there was a reason for Favored Enemy...
: Re: Why?
: weenog August 10, 2010, 01:27:01 AM
Rangers are half casters.  They get nice things because they're not supposed to be able to use them competently.
: Re: Why?
: Saxony August 10, 2010, 02:54:24 AM
Assassin is a prestige class in the DMG that isn't for full spellcasters.

It doesn't get nice things. It especially doesn't get nice spells.

As for why Wizards get sneak attack spells... No idea. Someone was smoking recreational drugs.
: Re: Why?
: Amechra August 10, 2010, 03:02:29 AM
Knew it!

But isn't Assassin the only class that can Death Attack with no delay through that 4th level spell?

I think it's in CArc.
: Re: Why?
: Saxony August 10, 2010, 03:23:32 AM
Knew it!

But isn't Assassin the only class that can Death Attack with no delay through that 4th level spell?

I think it's in CArc.
Death Sight from Complete Mage, yes.

Don't expect Dungeons and Dragons' consistency to remain constant.

Because that would be consistent :P
: Re: Why?
: Amechra August 10, 2010, 03:27:54 AM
Heh, my Assassin is taking that next level.

Since she'll be 12th level, what do you think of Extra Spell (Hunter's Eye)? Thanks to Practiced Spellcaster, Next level she'll have a CL of 11, so that would mean +3d6 SA damage, for a total of 10d6 (or 11d6 against undead)

Nice.
: Re: Why?
: The_Mad_Linguist August 10, 2010, 05:06:24 AM
Same reason that spellthieves don't get it.
: Re: Why?
: PlzBreakMyCampaign August 10, 2010, 05:20:26 AM
Same reason that spellthieves don't get it.
Because anything mildly anti-caster must be mechanically deficient? Wait...
: Re: Why?
: Epoch16 August 12, 2010, 08:56:13 PM
Since she'll be 12th level, what do you think of Extra Spell (Hunter's Eye)? Thanks to Practiced Spellcaster, Next level she'll have a CL of 11, so that would mean +3d6 SA damage, for a total of 10d6 (or 11d6 against undead)

Why don't you just take Telling Blow feat from PHB2, and get a rapier/kukri/other with keen on it? Telling blow says that you deal SA on a crit. . .and with a high enough crit range. . .well you get the idea.

Honestly, there doesn't seem to be a reason to go through such hoops for a few extra d6's (unless of course I am missing something.)
: Re: Why?
: weenog August 12, 2010, 10:01:43 PM
Since she'll be 12th level, what do you think of Extra Spell (Hunter's Eye)? Thanks to Practiced Spellcaster, Next level she'll have a CL of 11, so that would mean +3d6 SA damage, for a total of 10d6 (or 11d6 against undead)

Why don't you just take Telling Blow feat from PHB2, and get a rapier/kukri/other with keen on it? Telling blow says that you deal SA on a crit. . .and with a high enough crit range. . .well you get the idea.

Honestly, there doesn't seem to be a reason to go through such hoops for a few extra d6's (unless of course I am missing something.)
You don't crit with every single attack.  You can be TWFing and flanking or attacking a target denied its Dex bonus with every single attack.  Sneak Attack applies to every attack which meets the conditions needed to trigger it.
: Re: Why?
: JaronK August 12, 2010, 10:30:55 PM
It's to give Factotums yet one more thing to lord above Rogues/Assassins/Spelltheives.  "We don't even want our sneak attack but we do it better than you!"

JaronK
: Re: Why?
: Epoch16 August 12, 2010, 11:04:09 PM
You don't crit with every single attack.  You can be TWFing and flanking or attacking a target denied its Dex bonus with every single attack.  Sneak Attack applies to every attack which meets the conditions needed to trigger it.


I think we are saying the same thing. At least what you said is what I was implying. Whereas its true that every normal attack wouldnt be a SA, if you were flanking something (and were dual-wielding kukri's) then they would be SA's. And then if any of those kukri's hit their threat range, the damage could be nothing less than impressive.  

IDK, perhaps I was unclear. . ./shrug.
: Re: Why?
: Maat_Mons August 12, 2010, 11:35:50 PM
Errata:

Page 83 – Telling Blow [Omission]
Add the following sentence to the end of the “Benefit” section: “Skirmish or sneak attack damage is added only once, even if you meet other conditions for adding damage, such as if you scored a critical while the enemy was flat-footed.”
: Re: Why?
: Amechra August 13, 2010, 03:15:58 AM
Heh, my current Assassin is fixing that with a couple of levels of Unseen Seer to use Advanced Learning to get Hunter's Eye.

+7d6 SA by 20th level, which totals 19d6 SA in general, is just nice.
: Re: Why?
: The_Mad_Linguist August 13, 2010, 03:25:35 AM
It's to give Factotums yet one more thing to lord above Rogues/Assassins/Spelltheives.  "We don't even want our sneak attack but we do it better than you!"

JaronK

Hunter's eye + iaijutsu focus + vampiric touch + coup de grace + high hp summon = stupidly high temp hp for an hour, since extra damage stuck onto vampiric touch still counts for the temp hp.
: Re: Why?
: fuinjutsu August 13, 2010, 05:09:57 AM
Heh, my current Assassin is fixing that with a couple of levels of Unseen Seer to use Advanced Learning to get Hunter's Eye.

+7d6 SA by 20th level, which totals 19d6 SA in general, is just nice.

What was the record for SA dice by level 20 again?  Something like 40d6?

Also, 19d6 SA dice calls for Precise strike.  15d6 and +8 to hit.  or 12d6 and +14 to hit.  wheeeeeeee...
: Re: Why?
: RobbyPants August 13, 2010, 10:04:12 AM
Assassin is a prestige class in the DMG that isn't for full spellcasters.

It doesn't get nice things. It especially doesn't get nice spells.

As for why Wizards get sneak attack spells... No idea. Someone was smoking recreational drugs.
Because WotC has a hard-on for full prepared casters.

Although, they do seem to hate sorcerers for some reason too, but just not as badly as they hate non-full-casters.
: Re: Why?
: SorO_Lost August 13, 2010, 10:56:34 AM
Hunter's eye + iaijutsu focus + vampiric touch + coup de grace + high hp summon = stupidly high temp hp for an hour, since extra damage stuck onto vampiric touch still counts for the temp hp.
I have to admit I'm a fan of the nightmare blades. Ruby for instance can be picked up at the 16th level for 15,000gp.
So take your above figure, then double it.
:)

What was the record for SA dice by level 20 again?  Something like 40d6?

Also, 19d6 SA dice calls for Precise strike.  15d6 and +8 to hit.  or 12d6 and +14 to hit.  wheeeeeeee...
Counting by what?
Assassins Stance + Custom Legacy + Deadly Percision (CAd) + Bracers of the Hunter + Rogue's Vest + Mantle of the Predator = +10d6.
Shapechange(gloom) = +13d6
Red Mage Circle Magic or w/e for a Wand of Hunter's Eye(cl 40) = +13d6.
Add Craven.
There is +36d6+20 SA without class abilities.

Oh and the The 146 average is almost equal to 42d6, yeahee Craven! :)


: Re: Why?
: Amechra August 13, 2010, 01:41:20 PM
I'm not trying to break any records here; my party is not very optimized, so only 19d6+20 damage should be fine.
: Re: Why?
: Awkward Map August 13, 2010, 02:26:28 PM
: Amechra
I've always wondered why Vinestrike, Gravestrike, and that one spell that let's you SA constructs aren't on the Assassin spell list.

It comes down to Complete Adventurer trying to advocate really dumb multiclassing choices like Druid/Rogue (Vinestrike), Cleric/Rogue (Gravestrike), and Wizard/Rogue (Golemstrike).  I guess the idea is for the Daggerspell Mage/Shapers to have nice things.
: Re: Why?
: fuinjutsu August 13, 2010, 07:01:32 PM
: Amechra
I've always wondered why Vinestrike, Gravestrike, and that one spell that let's you SA constructs aren't on the Assassin spell list.

It comes down to Complete Adventurer trying to advocate really dumb multiclassing choices like Druid/Rogue (Vinestrike), Cleric/Rogue (Gravestrike), and Wizard/Rogue (Golemstrike).  I guess the idea is for the Daggerspell Mage/Shapers to have nice things.

Rogue/wizard is a great multiclass option.  Just don't take more than 1 level of rogue.  (2 levels if your DM is really mean and feign death will save your butt)
: Re: Why?
: Epoch16 August 13, 2010, 08:08:00 PM
Errata:

Page 83 – Telling Blow [Omission]
Add the following sentence to the end of the “Benefit” section: “Skirmish or sneak attack damage is added only once, even if you meet other conditions for adding damage, such as if you scored a critical while the enemy was flat-footed.”

*tear*
: Re: Why?
: SorO_Lost August 13, 2010, 11:40:39 PM
Errata:

Page 83 – Telling Blow [Omission]
Add the following sentence to the end of the “Benefit” section: “Skirmish or sneak attack damage is added only once, even if you meet other conditions for adding damage, such as if you scored a critical while the enemy was flat-footed.”

*tear*
Do you really need Telling Blow? Even at a 15~20/x4 crit and saying it fully multiplies SA I'd rather just pick up Darkstalker or an Ambush feat or something. A standard SA build sports close to +20d6+20 per hit & TWF so you'll be dealing 700+ per round with a full waithstrike attack anyway. The Big T has the most HP of nonlisted-as-epic-monsters I think and it only has 850ish.