Brilliant Gameologists Forum

The Thinktank => Min/Max It! => : Suzerain July 26, 2009, 08:52:15 AM

: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Suzerain July 26, 2009, 08:52:15 AM
Foreword by sonofzeal, who’s started this list:

Rating PrCs is difficult.  It's obvious that some provide too much and some provide too little, but which is which depends on a lot of factors - base class entry being the most obvious.  Where the difference between two "logical entries" is huge, those entries can be listed separately (see Rainbow Servant), but just like for base classes, a single PrC can go up or down based on optimization skill, and we should focus on what we see as the "average" use.  We should only list a PrC multiple times if the multiple entries are all simple and straightforward given the requirements, as anything else falls under the individual's optimization skill.

It's also difficult to categorize power.  Soulbow certainly adds more to Soulknives than Mindbender does to Sorcerers, but I think most will agree that a high level Mindbender will still beat a Soulbow with both arms tied behind its back.  Still, ranking them that way is merely repeating the obvious, that some base classes are better than other, down through the list of PrCs ad nauseum.  That's neither helpful nor productive.  Instead, it would make more sense to rate PrCs by how much advantage they give, over their "logical entries".  In other words, a PrC for Soulknives is held to a different standard than a PrC for Sorcerers, and the grade tells you how strongly you should consider taking that PrC, assuming you're already working on a build that could qualify. 

So for this, I'll be referring to Tiers and how the PrC changes them, but I'm aware that there's multiple Tier systems out there that differ in substantial ways, and that some of these gradings will put classes into places they just don't belong when taken literally.  A Tier 3 with an "up one" PrC wouldn't necessarily be a Tier 2, and a Tier 1 with a "down two" PrC would probably still be better than most Tier 3 classes.  There will also be classes that go off the top or bottom of the scale.  The goal is merely to make it clear that an "up two" is better than an "up one", and that both are only in reference to the starting point as given by the "logical entry".  To repeat: the ranking is not literal.  It's just a guideline to help novice or intermediate players know where to start looking.


Books included so far and average tier:
[spoiler]
Book of Exalted Deeds+0.27
Book of Vile Darkness+0.53
Champions of Ruin+0
Champions of Valor+0.25
Cityscape+1
Complete Adventurer-0.04
Complete Arcane-0.05
Complete Divine+0.25
Complete Mage+0.55
Complete Psionics+0.44
Complete Scoundrel+0.43
Complete Warrior+0.11
Draconomicon-0.46
Drow of the Underdark-1
Dungeon Master's Guide-0.38
Eberron Campaign Setting+0.63
Expanded Psionics Handbook+0.1
Expedition to the Demonweb Pits+1
Faiths and Pantheons+0.11
Faiths of Eberron+2
Frostburn+0.36
Heroes of Battle+0.25
Heroes of Horror+0.5
Libris Mortis-1
Lords of Madness+0.71
Lost Empires of Faerûn+0
Magic of Incarnum-0.17
Miniatures Handbook-0.29
Planar Handbook-0.11
Player's Guide to Faerûn-0.14
Races of Destiny+0.29
Races of Eberron+0.78
Races of Faerûn+0.29
Races of Stone+0.44
Races of the Dragon+0.4
Races of the Wild+0.5
Sandstorm+0.33
Serpent Kingdoms+0
Shattered Gates of Slaughtergarde+0
Shining South+0.22
Stormwrack-0.14
Tome of Battle+0.13
Tome of Magic+0.25
Unapproachable East+0.55
Underdark+0.22
[/spoiler]

This is the predecessor thread: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3876.0). Inspired by the Tier System for Classes (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0) thread.

And some brave fellas have started cranking out reasonings for the ratings as follows:
Why Down Two PrC are Down Two Tiers. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5093.0)
Why up 2 tier prcs are up 2 tiers (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6876.0)


Please help expand this resource by contributing ratings and taking part in the discussion.

Setting-neutral books still missing: Complete Champion, Dragon Magic, Dungeonscape, Fiend Folio, Ghostwalk and Weapons of Legacy.

Eberron books needed: Dragonmarked, Explorer's Handbook, Faiths of Eberron, Magic of Eberron, Player's Guide to Eberron, Secrets of Sarlona, Secrets of Xen'drik, Sharn: City of Towers

Faerun books left: City of Splendors: Waterdeep, Power of Faerun


An up-to-date version of the underlying spreadsheet is attached in *.ods (OpenOffice) format. The _copy suffix denotes this is not my working copy of the spreadsheet, but a static copy of one state of the document. The Excel file exceeded the file size restrictions and had to be zipped.
: Tier System for PrCs – PrCs by-tier
: Suzerain July 26, 2009, 08:52:30 AM
Up Two or More Tiers.  These PrCs improve the power of their entry classes dramatically, either by building on strengths or by adding powerful new ones.  Expect characters with these to blow their single-classed peers out of the water (and possibly get DM-smote, depending on the base class's power).
[spoiler]
Anarchic InitiateCPsi
Anima MageToM
Champion of GwynharwyfBoED
Disciple of DispaterBoVD
DreadmasterF&P
DweomerkeeperCD
Emissaries of BarachielBoED
Halruuan ElderShS
Hulking HurlerCW
IncantatrixPGtF
Initiate of the Sevenfold VeilCA
Legendary Captain (if naval combat is required)Stormwrack
Moonspeaker (non-Druid entry)RoE
Planar ShepherdFoE
Rainbow Servant (Warmage entry)CD
Runescarred BerserkerUE
Sacred Exorcist (non-Cleric entry)CD
Sentinel of BharraiBoED
Shadowcraft MageRoS
Soul EaterBoVD
SoulbowCPsi
Sublime ChordCA
Tainted ScholarHoH
Telflammar ShadowlordUE
Thrall of JuiblexBoVD
ThrallherdXPH
Ur-PriestCD
Void DiscipleCD
Walker in the WasteSandstorm
War HulkMini
Warshaper (non-casting entry)CW
[/spoiler]


Up One Tier.  These PrCs generally improve their entry classes substantially, without radically affecting game balance.  Expect characters with these to be powerful allies or dangerous enemies, without totally overshadowing their single-classed peers.
[spoiler]
Abjurant ChampionCM
AbolisherLoM
Acolyte of the EgoToM
Aglarondan GriffonriderUE
Anointed KnightBoED
Arachnomancer (Monk capitalizing on poison)Und
Arcane HeirophantRotW
Ashworm Dragoon Sandstorm
AssassinDMG
AtavistRoE
AuspicianF&P
Bear WarriorCW
Beloved of ValarianBoED
BlackguardDMG
Blade BravoRoS
Bloodclaw MasterToB
BloodhoundCW
Cabinet TricksterRoE
Cancer Mage (w/o abuse)BoVD
CavalierCW
CavelordUnd
Celestial MysticBoED
ChameleonRoD
Champion of Corellon LarethianRotW
ChaoticianPlH
Church InquisitorCD
Cognition Thief (Ardent or Wilder entry)PGtF
ContemplativeCD
Cragtop ArcherRoS
Crinti Shadow MarauderShS
Daggerspell ShaperCAdv
DarkrunnerLoM
Death DelverHoH
DeepwardenRoS
Defender of SealtielBoED
Demonwrecker EDP
DervishCW
DiabolistBoVD
Disciple of AsmodeusBoVD
Disciple of BaalzebulBoVD
Disciple of MephistophelesBoVD
Disciple of the EyeRotD
Disciple of the WordToM
Disciple of ThrymFrostburn
Divine CrusaderCD
Divine OracleCD
Divine PranksterRoS
DoomguideF&P
Dragon Devotee (non-caster entry or 1 lvl dip)RotD
Dragonmark HeirECS
Dragonstalker (Dragon heavy game)Drc
Dread Fang of LolthDotU
Dread PirateCAdv
Drow JudicatorUnd
Drunken MasterCW
Earth DreamerRoS
Eldeen RangerECS
Elemental WarriorPlH
Enlightened FistCA
Eternal BladeToB
Exotic Weapons MasterCW
Eye of Horus-RePGtF
Fatemaker (worse for bards)PlH
FatespinnerCA
Fiend-BloodedHoH
Fist of Raziel BoED
FleshwarperLoM
Fochlucan Lyrist (evasion gained w/o CL loss)CAdv
Frenzied BerserkerCW
Frost Mage (Sorc entry)Frostburn
Ghost Faced KillerCAdv
Grey GuardCS
Halfling OutriderCW
Hammer of MoradinPGtF
HathranPGtF
HeartwardenF&P
Heir of Siberys ECS
Holy LiberatorCD
Holy ScourgeCM
Illumine SoulCPsi
Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil (AMF penetrates veils houserule)CA
Ironsoul ForgemasterMoI
Jade Phoenix MageToB
JaunterEDP
Justicar of TyrPGtF
Keeper of the Cerulean SignLoM
Knight of Sacred SealToM
Knight of the ChaliceCW
Knight ProtectorCW
Legendary CommandoHoB
Leviathan Hunter Stormwrack
Lion of TalisidBoED
LoredelverRoD
LoremasterDMG
Lyric ThaumaturgeCM
Mage of the Arcane OrderCA
Magelord (evasion gained w/o CL loss)LEoF
Magical TricksterCS
MalconvokerCS
Master InquisitiveECS
Master of Many Forms (Ranger entry)CAdv
Master of Masks (Spellthief entry)CS
Master of ShadowToM
Master Specialist CM
Master ThrowerCW
Menacing BruteRoD
Moonspeaker (Druid)RoE
Mortal HunterBoVD
MountebankCS
Nentyar HunterUE
Nightmare SpinnerCM
Nightsong EnforcerCAdv
NoctumancerToM
Olin GisirLEoF
Orc WarlordRoF
Pale MasterLM
PrimevalFrostburn
Prophet of Erathaol BoED
Psibond AgentCS
Psionic FistXPH
Quori NightmareRoE
Radiant Servant of PelorCD
Raumathari BattlemageUE
RecasterRoE
Rimefire WitchFrostburn
Risen MartyrBoED
Ruby Knight VindicatorToB
RunesmithRoS
Sacred Exorcist (Cleric entry)CD
Sacred FistCD
Sanctified MindLoM
Sand Shaper (Sorc entry)Sandstorm
Scion of DantalionToM
Scion of Tem-Et-NuSandstorm
Scorpion HeritorSandstorm
Serene GuardianShattered Gates of Slaughtergarde
Shadow Sun NinjaToB
Shadowbane Inquisitor (Blackguard entry)CAdv
Shadowbane StalkerCAdv
Shou DiscipleUE
Singer of ConcordanceRotD
Skullclan HunterMini
SkypledgedRotW
SlayerXPH
Slayer of DomielBoED
Spellguard of SilverymoonPGtF
Spellwarp SniperCS
StoneblessedRoS
Suel ArcanamachCA
Temple Raider of Olidammara (non-Rogue entry)CD
ThaumaturgistDMG
Thayan GladiatorCR
Thrall of DemogoronBoVD
Topaz Guardian (gish entry)LoM
Triadic KnightCV
Umbral DiscipleMoI
Unseen SeerCM
Urban Savant (non-Bard entry)Cityscape
Urban SoulRoD
Vassal of BahamutBoED
Vengeance KnightCR
VirtuosoCAdv
War Mind (non-pure psi entries)XPH
War WeaverHoB
Warforged JuggernautECS
Warrior of DarknessBoVD
Warrior SkaldRoF
Wearer of PurpleF&P
Weretouched MasterECS
WhisperknifeRotW
Wild Plains OutriderCAdv
Wild SoulCM
WildrunnerRotW
WindwalkerF&P
Winterhaunt of IborighuFrostburn
Witch Slayer (non-caster entry)ToM
Zerth CenobiteCPsi
[/spoiler]


Even.  These PrCs are roughly on par with their entry classes overall, trading strengths in certain areas for strengths in others, or provides moderate gains for a moderate investment (ie required feats or unfavorable multiclassing).  Expect characters with these to fit naturally into a single-classed party.
[spoiler]
AlienistCA
Animal LordCAdv
ArachneF&P
Arcane DevoteePGtF
ArchmageDMG
Ardent DilettantePlH
Astral DancerPlH
Avenging ExecutionerCS
Battle TricksterCS
BattleragerRoF
BattlesmithRoS
BeastmasterCAdv
Black Blood HunterPGtF
Blood MagusCA
BreachgnomeRoF
Child of NightToM
Cipher AdeptPlH
Cloud AncoriteFrostburn
Combat TrapsmithCS
Consecrated HarrierCD
Corrupt AvengerHoH
Cultist of the Shattered PeakLEoF
Daggerspell MageCAdv
Dark ScholarShattered Gates of Slaughtergarde
Darkwood StalkerCW
Deep DivinerUnd
Deepstone SentinelToB
Demonbinder DotU
Disciple of MammonBoVD
Divine ChampionPGtF
Divine DisciplePGtF
Divine SeekerPGtF
DracolexiRotD
DracolyteDrc
DragonriderDrc
Dragonslayer (Dragon heavy game, except as 1 lvl dip)Drc
Dragonsong lyristDrc
Dread CommandoHoB
Dread WitchHoH
Dwarven DefenderDMG
Ectopic Adept (only if CPsi nerfs are used already)CPsi
Eldritch DiscipleCM
Eldritch KnightDMG
Eldritch TheurgeCM
Elemental SavantCA
Elocater (PsiWar or PsiRogue entry)XPH
Exorcist of the Silver FlameECS
Eye of GruumshCW
Fang of SsethSK
FiendbinderToM
Flayerspawn PsychicCPsi
Fortune's FriendCS
Frost Mage (Wizard entry)Frostburn
Frost RagerFrostburn
GeometerCA
Gnome Giant-SlayerCW
GoldeyeF&P
Goliath LiberatorRoS
Great Rift Deep DefenderShS
Great Rift SkyguardRoF
Hand of the AdamaShS
Highland StalkerCAdv
Imaskari Vengeance TakerUnd
Initiate of the Draconic MysteriesDrc
Invisible BladeCW
Iron Mind (Ardent entry)RoS
Jordain VizierShS
JusticarCW
Justice of Weald and WoeCR
KensaiCW
Knight of Iron GlacierFrostburn
Knight of the Flying HuntCV
Knight of the PearlStormwrack
Knight of the WeaveCV
Lord of Tides (Cleric Entry)Sandstorm
Luiren MarchwardenShS
MaesterCAdv
Magelord (regular entry)LEoF
Maiden of PainPGtF
Maquar CrusaderShS
Master of Masks (general entry)CS
Master of the Unseen Hand (ghost or similar)CW
Moonsea SkysentinelCV
Morninglord of LathanderPGtF
Nar DemonbinderUE
Nature's WarriorCW
NightcloakF&P
Occult SlayerCW
Peregrine RunnerRoS
Pious Templar (except for 1 level dips)CD
Platinum Knight (Dragon heavy game)Drc
Prime Underdark GuideUnd
Psion UncarnateXPH
Purple Dragon KnightCW
RavagerCW
ReachrunnerRoE
Red WizardDMG
ReforgedRoE
RoninCW
RuatharRotW
RunecasterPGtF
Sapphire HierarchMoI
Scar EnforcerRoD
Scourge MaidenShS
Seeker of the Misty IsleCD
Serpent SlayerSK
Shaaryan HunterPGtF
Shade HunterCR
Shadow AdeptPGtF
Shadow Thief of AmnPGtF
Shadowbane InquisitorCAdv
Shadowblade ToM
ShadowcrafterUnd
ShadowsmithToM
SilverstarF&P
SoulcasterMoI
Spellcarved SoldierRoE
SpellsingerRoF
Spinemeld Warrior (non-incarnum entry)MoI
SpymasterCAdv
Stonedeath AssassinRoS
StonelordCW
Stonespeaker GuardianRoS
Storm Disciple (Ardent dip entry)CPsi
StormcasterStormwrack
StormlordCD
StormsingerFrostburn
Stormtalon (except for 1 level dips)RotW
StreetfighterCAdv
StrifeleaderF&P
Sword DancerF&P
Sword of RighteousnessBoED
Talontar BlightlordUE
Tattooed MonkCW
TechsmithF&P
Temple Raider of Olidammara (Rogue entry)CD
Thayan KnightCW
Thayan SlaverUE
Thrall of OrcusBoVD
Totem RagerMoI
Twisted LordShattered Gates of Slaughtergarde
Ultimate Magus (w/o fast entry tricks)CM
Uncanny TricksterCS
Vermin KeeperUnd
VigilanteCAdv
War ChanterCW
War Mind (pure PsiWar entry)XPH
WarchiefMini
Warshaper (casting entry)CW
Warsling SniperRoF
WaveservantF&P
Wild MageCA
Witch Slayer (gish entry)ToM
Zhentarim SpyPGtF
[/spoiler]


Down One.  These PrCs are generally inferior to their obvious entry classes, losing out on important features in order to gain things that are likely not to matter in the long run.  Expect characters with these to struggle in a single-classed party.  They may still be viable for cherrypicking, or under heavy optimization.
[spoiler]
Apostle of Peace (w/o VoP)BoED
ArachnomancerDotU
Arcane TricksterDMG
Argent SavantCA
Black Blood CultistCR
Black Flame ZealotCD
BladesingerCW
Bloodstorm Blade (except 2 level dips)ToB
Cavestalker (Ranger entry)DotU
Celebrant of SharessPGtF
CerebremancerXPH
Cloaked DancerCS
Cognition Thief (other entry)PGtF
Combat MedicHoB
CryokineticistFrostburn
Dark HunterCW
DawncallerRoS
Death's ChosenLM
DemonlogistBoVD
DoomlordPlH
Dragon DiscipleDMG
Dragon SamuraiMini
Dragonheart MageRotD
DragonkithDrc
DragonslayerDrc
DragonstalkerDrc
Dungeon DelverCAdv
DurthanUE
Ebon SaintCPsi
Effigy MasterCA
Elemental ArchonF&P
Elocater (Psion entry)XPH
Enlightened SpiritCM
Evereskan Tomb GuardianPGtF
Exalted ArcanistBoED
Exemplar CAdv
Extreme ExplorerECS
Geomancer (varies greatly on entry)CD
Glorious ServitorLEoF
Halruuan MagehoundShS
Harper AgentPGtF
Harper ParagonPGtF
Havoc MageMini
HeirophantDMG
HoardstealerDrc
Horizon WalkerDMG
Horned HarbingerF&P
HospitalerCD
Hunter of the DeadCW
Incandescent ChampionMoI
Initiate of Pistis SophiaBoED
Iron Mind (non-Ardent entry)RoS
KinslayerDotU
Lord of Tides (Druid Entry)Sandstorm
LuckstealerRotW
Martyred Champion of IlmaterPGtF
Master of Many Forms (Druid entry)CAdv
Master of Nine (unless you can get some of the feats for "free")ToB
Master of RadianceLM
Master of ShroundsLM
Master of the YuirwoodUE
Master TransmogrifistCA
Monk of the Long DeathPGtF
Mystic TheurgeDMG
Nightmask DeathbringerCR
Nightsong InfiltratorCAdv
Ocular AdeptF&P
Order of the Bow InitiateCW
Outcast ChampionRoD
Platinum KnightDrc
Purifier of the Hallowed DoctrineHoH
PyrokineticistXPH
Rage MageCW
Rainbow Servant (Sor/Wiz entry)CD
Sacred PurifierLM
Sand Shaper (Wiz Entry) Sandstorm
Scarlet Corsair (w/o capstone abuse)Stormwrack
Sea WitchStormwrack
Shadow SentinelRoD
ShadowdancerDMG
ShadowmindCAdv
Shining BladeCD
SkylordBoED
Slime LordPGtF
Spellsword (except for 1 level dips)CW
Stalker of KharashBoED
Storm Disciple (Pure Ardent entry)CPsi
SunmasterLEoF
Swanmay BoED
Tactical SoldierMini
TempestCAdv
Tenebrous ApostateToM
Thief-AcrobatCAdv
Thrall of Graz'ztBoVD
Topaz Guardian (caster entry)LoM
Troubadour of StarsBoED
Vermin LordBoVD
Visionary SeekerPlH
WarpriestCD
Wayfarer Guide (except for 1 level dips)CA
Yathchol WebriderUnd
[/spoiler]


Down Two or More Tiers.  These PrCs completely fail to do what they were trying to do, or makes heavy sacrifices for little to no gain.  Expect characters with these to be unplayable without heavy optimization effort, or some cunning trick.
[spoiler]
Acolyte of the skinCA
Apostle of PeaceBoED
Arcane ArcherDMG
BereftToM
BlighterCD
Bonded SummonerMini
Brimstone SpeakerToM
Cavestalker (Druid entry)DotU
DefiantPlH
DirgesingerLM
DuelistDMG
EntropomancerCD
EvangelistCD
Eye of LolthDotU
Fochlucan Lyrist (unless Evasion is gained without dips, then Up One Tier)CAdv
Forest MasterF&P
Green Star AdeptCA
Incarnum BladeMoI
Insidious Corruptor (Arcane Spellcaster entry)DotU
LifedrinkerBoVD
Master of the Unseen HandCW
Metamind (w/o capstone abuse)XPH
Mindbender (except for 1 level dips)CA
MindspyCW
Necrocarnate (w/o infinite essentia abuse)MoI
OllamCAdv
Reaping MaulerCW
Solar ChannelerShattered Gates of Slaughtergarde
Spinemeld Warrior (incarnum entry)MoI
Talon of TiamatDrc
True NecromancerLM
WavekeeperStormwrack
Witchborn BinderMoI
Wonderworker BoED
YathrinsheePGtF
[/spoiler]
: Tier System for PrCs – PrCs by-book
: Suzerain July 26, 2009, 08:52:44 AM
Book of Exalted Deeds
[spoiler]
Champion of Gwynharwyf+2
Emissaries of Barachiel+2
Sentinel of Bharrai+2
Anointed Knight+1
Beloved of Valarian+1
Celestial Mystic+1
Defender of Sealtiel+1
Fist of Raziel +1
Lion of Talisid+1
Prophet of Erathaol +1
Risen Martyr+1
Slayer of Domiel+1
Vassal of Bahamut+1
Sword of Righteousness+0
Apostle of Peace (w/o VoP)-1
Exalted Arcanist-1
Initiate of Pistis Sophia-1
Skylord-1
Stalker of Kharash-1
Swanmay -1
Troubadour of Stars-1
Apostle of Peace-2
Wonderworker -2
[/spoiler]

Book of Vile Darkness
[spoiler]
Disciple of Dispater+2
Soul Eater+2
Thrall of Juiblex+2
Cancer Mage (w/o abuse)+1
Diabolist+1
Disciple of Asmodeus+1
Disciple of Baalzebul+1
Disciple of Mephistopheles+1
Mortal Hunter+1
Thrall of Demogoron+1
Warrior of Darkness+1
Disciple of Mammon+0
Thrall of Orcus+0
Demonlogist-1
Thrall of Graz'zt-1
Vermin Lord-1
Lifedrinker-2
[/spoiler]

Champions of Ruin
[spoiler]
Thayan Gladiator+1
Vengeance Knight+1
Justice of Weald and Woe+0
Shade Hunter+0
Black Blood Cultist-1
Nightmask Deathbringer-1
[/spoiler]

Champions of Valor
[spoiler]
Triadic Knight+1
Knight of the Flying Hunt+0
Knight of the Weave+0
Moonsea Skysentinel+0
[/spoiler]

Cityscape
[spoiler]
Urban Savant (non-Bard entry)+1
[/spoiler]

Complete Adventurer
[spoiler]
Daggerspell Shaper+1
Dread Pirate+1
Fochlucan Lyrist (evasion gained w/o CL loss)+1
Ghost Faced Killer+1
Master of Many Forms (Ranger entry)+1
Nightsong Enforcer+1
Shadowbane Inquisitor (Blackguard entry)+1
Shadowbane Stalker+1
Virtuoso+1
Wild Plains Outrider+1
Animal Lord+0
Beastmaster+0
Daggerspell Mage+0
Highland Stalker+0
Maester+0
Shadowbane Inquisitor+0
Spymaster+0
Streetfighter+0
Vigilante+0
Dungeon Delver-1
Exemplar -1
Master of Many Forms (Druid entry)-1
Nightsong Infiltrator-1
Shadowmind-1
Tempest-1
Thief-Acrobat-1
Fochlucan Lyrist (unless Evasion is gained without dips, then Up One Tier)-2
Ollam-2
[/spoiler]

Complete Arcane
[spoiler]
Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil+2
Sublime Chord+2
Enlightened Fist+1
Fatespinner+1
Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil (AMF penetrates veils houserule)+1
Mage of the Arcane Order+1
Suel Arcanamach+1
Alienist+0
Blood Magus+0
Elemental Savant+0
Geometer+0
Wild Mage+0
Argent Savant-1
Effigy Master-1
Master Transmogrifist-1
Wayfarer Guide (except for 1 level dips)-1
Acolyte of the skin-2
Green Star Adept-2
Mindbender (except for 1 level dips)-2
[/spoiler]

Complete Divine
[spoiler]
Dweomerkeeper+2
Rainbow Servant (Warmage entry)+2
Sacred Exorcist (non-Cleric entry)+2
Ur-Priest+2
Void Disciple+2
Church Inquisitor+1
Contemplative+1
Divine Crusader+1
Divine Oracle+1
Holy Liberator+1
Radiant Servant of Pelor+1
Sacred Exorcist (Cleric entry)+1
Sacred Fist+1
Temple Raider of Olidammara (non-Rogue entry)+1
Consecrated Harrier+0
Pious Templar (except for 1 level dips)+0
Seeker of the Misty Isle+0
Stormlord+0
Temple Raider of Olidammara (Rogue entry)+0
Black Flame Zealot-1
Geomancer (varies greatly on entry)-1
Hospitaler-1
Rainbow Servant (Sor/Wiz entry)-1
Shining Blade-1
Warpriest-1
Blighter-2
Entropomancer-2
Evangelist-2
[/spoiler]

Complete Mage
[spoiler]
Abjurant Champion+1
Holy Scourge+1
Lyric Thaumaturge+1
Master Specialist +1
Nightmare Spinner+1
Unseen Seer+1
Wild Soul+1
Eldritch Disciple+0
Eldritch Theurge+0
Ultimate Magus (w/o fast entry tricks)+0
Enlightened Spirit-1
[/spoiler]

Complete Psionics
[spoiler]
Anarchic Initiate+2
Soulbow+2
Illumine Soul+1
Zerth Cenobite+1
Ectopic Adept (only if CPsi nerfs are used already)+0
Flayerspawn Psychic+0
Storm Disciple (Ardent dip entry)+0
Ebon Saint-1
Storm Disciple (Pure Ardent entry)-1
[/spoiler]

Complete Scoundrel
[spoiler]
Grey Guard+1
Magical Trickster+1
Malconvoker+1
Master of Masks (Spellthief entry)+1
Mountebank+1
Psibond Agent+1
Spellwarp Sniper+1
Avenging Executioner+0
Battle Trickster+0
Combat Trapsmith+0
Fortune's Friend+0
Master of Masks (general entry)+0
Uncanny Trickster+0
Cloaked Dancer-1
[/spoiler]

Complete Warrior
[spoiler]
Hulking Hurler+2
Warshaper (non-casting entry)+2
Bear Warrior+1
Bloodhound+1
Cavalier+1
Dervish+1
Drunken Master+1
Exotic Weapons Master+1
Frenzied Berserker+1
Halfling Outrider+1
Knight of the Chalice+1
Knight Protector+1
Master Thrower+1
Darkwood Stalker+0
Eye of Gruumsh+0
Gnome Giant-Slayer+0
Invisible Blade+0
Justicar+0
Kensai+0
Master of the Unseen Hand (ghost or similar)+0
Nature's Warrior+0
Occult Slayer+0
Purple Dragon Knight+0
Ravager+0
Ronin+0
Stonelord+0
Tattooed Monk+0
Thayan Knight+0
War Chanter+0
Warshaper (casting entry)+0
Bladesinger-1
Dark Hunter-1
Hunter of the Dead-1
Order of the Bow Initiate-1
Rage Mage-1
Spellsword (except for 1 level dips)-1
Master of the Unseen Hand-2
Mindspy-2
Reaping Mauler-2
[/spoiler]

Draconomicon
[spoiler]
Dragonstalker (Dragon heavy game)+1
Dracolyte+0
Dragonrider+0
Dragonslayer (Dragon heavy game, except as 1 lvl dip)+0
Dragonsong lyrist+0
Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries+0
Platinum Knight (Dragon heavy game)+0
Dragonkith-1
Dragonslayer-1
Dragonstalker-1
Hoardstealer-1
Platinum Knight-1
Talon of Tiamat-2
[/spoiler]

Drow of the Underdark
[spoiler]
Dread Fang of Lolth+1
Demonbinder +0
Arachnomancer-1
Cavestalker (Ranger entry)-1
Kinslayer-1
Cavestalker (Druid entry)-2
Eye of Lolth-2
Insidious Corruptor (Arcane Spellcaster entry)-2
[/spoiler]

Dungeon Master's Guide
[spoiler]
Assassin+1
Blackguard+1
Loremaster+1
Thaumaturgist+1
Archmage+0
Dwarven Defender+0
Eldritch Knight+0
Red Wizard+0
Arcane Trickster-1
Dragon Disciple-1
Heirophant-1
Horizon Walker-1
Mystic Theurge-1
Shadowdancer-1
Arcane Archer-2
Duelist-2
[/spoiler]

Eberron Campaign Setting
[spoiler]
Dragonmark Heir+1
Eldeen Ranger+1
Heir of Siberys +1
Master Inquisitive+1
Warforged Juggernaut+1
Weretouched Master+1
Exorcist of the Silver Flame+0
Extreme Explorer-1
[/spoiler]

Expanded Psionics Handbook
[spoiler]
Thrallherd+2
Psionic Fist+1
Slayer+1
War Mind (non-pure psi entries)+1
Elocater (PsiWar or PsiRogue entry)+0
Psion Uncarnate+0
War Mind (pure PsiWar entry)+0
Cerebremancer-1
Elocater (Psion entry)-1
Metamind (w/o capstone abuse)-2
Pyrokineticist-1
[/spoiler]

Expedition to the Demonweb Pits
[spoiler]
Demonwrecker +1
Jaunter+1
[/spoiler]

Faiths and Pantheons
[spoiler]
Dreadmaster+2
Auspician+1
Doomguide+1
Heartwarden+1
Wearer of Purple+1
Windwalker+1
Arachne+0
Goldeye+0
Nightcloak+0
Silverstar+0
Strifeleader+0
Sword Dancer+0
Techsmith+0
Waveservant+0
Elemental Archon-1
Horned Harbinger-1
Ocular Adept-1
Forest Master-2
[/spoiler]

Faiths of Eberron
[spoiler]
Planar Shepherd+2
[/spoiler]

Frostburn
[spoiler]
Disciple of Thrym+1
Frost Mage (Sorc entry)+1
Primeval+1
Rimefire Witch+1
Winterhaunt of Iborighu+1
Cloud Ancorite+0
Frost Mage (Wizard entry)+0
Frost Rager+0
Knight of Iron Glacier+0
Stormsinger+0
Cryokineticist-1
[/spoiler]

Heroes of Battle
[spoiler]
Legendary Commando+1
War Weaver+1
Dread Commando+0
Combat Medic-1
[/spoiler]

Heroes of Horror
[spoiler]
Tainted Scholar+2
Death Delver+1
Fiend-Blooded+1
Corrupt Avenger+0
Dread Witch+0
Purifier of the Hallowed Doctrine-1
[/spoiler]

Libris Mortis
[spoiler]
Pale Master+1
Death's Chosen-1
Master of Radiance-1
Master of Shrounds-1
Sacred Purifier-1
Dirgesinger-2
True Necromancer-2
[/spoiler]

Lords of Madness
[spoiler]
Abolisher+1
Darkrunner+1
Fleshwarper+1
Keeper of the Cerulean Sign+1
Sanctified Mind+1
Topaz Guardian (gish entry)+1
Topaz Guardian (caster entry)-1
[/spoiler]

Lost Empires of Faerūn
[spoiler]
Magelord (evasion gained w/o CL loss)+1
Olin Gisir+1
Cultist of the Shattered Peak+0
Magelord (regular entry)+0
Glorious Servitor-1
Sunmaster-1
[/spoiler]

Magic of Incarnum
[spoiler]
Ironsoul Forgemaster+1
Umbral Disciple+1
Sapphire Hierarch+0
Soulcaster+0
Spinemeld Warrior (non-incarnum entry)+0
Totem Rager+0
Incandescent Champion-1
Incarnum Blade-2
Necrocarnate (w/o infinite essentia abuse)-2
Spinemeld Warrior (incarnum entry)-2
Witchborn Binder-2
[/spoiler]

Miniatures Handbook
[spoiler]
War Hulk+2
Skullclan Hunter+1
Warchief+0
Dragon Samurai-1
Havoc Mage-1
Tactical Soldier-1
Bonded Summoner-2
[/spoiler]

Planar Handbook
[spoiler]
Chaotician+1
Elemental Warrior+1
Fatemaker (worse for bards)+1
Ardent Dilettante+0
Astral Dancer+0
Cipher Adept+0
Doomlord-1
Visionary Seeker-1
Defiant-2
[/spoiler]

Player's Guide to Faerūn
[spoiler]
Incantatrix+2
Cognition Thief (Ardent or Wilder entry)+1
Eye of Horus-Re+1
Hammer of Moradin+1
Hathran+1
Justicar of Tyr+1
Spellguard of Silverymoon+1
Arcane Devotee+0
Black Blood Hunter+0
Divine Champion+0
Divine Disciple+0
Divine Seeker+0
Maiden of Pain+0
Morninglord of Lathander+0
Runecaster+0
Shaaryan Hunter+0
Shadow Adept+0
Shadow Thief of Amn+0
Zhentarim Spy+0
Celebrant of Sharess-1
Cognition Thief (other entry)-1
Evereskan Tomb Guardian-1
Harper Agent-1
Harper Paragon-1
Martyred Champion of Ilmater-1
Monk of the Long Death-1
Slime Lord-1
Yathrinshee-2
[/spoiler]

Races of Destiny
[spoiler]
Chameleon+1
Loredelver+1
Menacing Brute+1
Urban Soul+1
Scar Enforcer+0
Outcast Champion-1
Shadow Sentinel-1
[/spoiler]

Races of Eberron
[spoiler]
Moonspeaker (non-Druid entry)+2
Atavist+1
Cabinet Trickster+1
Moonspeaker (Druid)+1
Quori Nightmare+1
Recaster+1
Reachrunner+0
Reforged+0
Spellcarved Soldier+0
[/spoiler]

Races of Faerūn
[spoiler]
Orc Warlord+1
Warrior Skald+1
Battlerager+0
Breachgnome+0
Great Rift Skyguard+0
Spellsinger+0
Warsling Sniper+0
[/spoiler]

Races of Stone
[spoiler]
Shadowcraft Mage+2
Blade Bravo+1
Cragtop Archer+1
Deepwarden+1
Divine Prankster+1
Earth Dreamer+1
Runesmith+1
Stoneblessed+1
Battlesmith+0
Goliath Liberator+0
Iron Mind (Ardent entry)+0
Peregrine Runner+0
Stonedeath Assassin+0
Stonespeaker Guardian+0
Dawncaller-1
Iron Mind (non-Ardent entry)-1
[/spoiler]

Races of the Dragon
[spoiler]
Disciple of the Eye+1
Dragon Devotee (non-caster entry or 1 lvl dip)+1
Singer of Concordance+1
Dracolexi+0
Dragonheart Mage-1
[/spoiler]

Races of the Wild
[spoiler]
Arcane Heirophant+1
Champion of Corellon Larethian+1
Skypledged+1
Whisperknife+1
Wildrunner+1
Ruathar+0
Stormtalon (except for 1 level dips)+0
Luckstealer-1
[/spoiler]

Sandstorm
[spoiler]
Walker in the Waste+2
Ashworm Dragoon +1
Sand Shaper (Sorc entry)+1
Scion of Tem-Et-Nu+1
Scorpion Heritor+1
Lord of Tides (Cleric Entry)+0
Lord of Tides (Druid Entry)-1
Sand Shaper (Wiz Entry) -1
[/spoiler]

Serpent Kingdoms
[spoiler]
Fang of Sseth+0
Serpent Slayer+0
[/spoiler]

Shattered Gates of Slaughtergarde
[spoiler]
Serene Guardian+1
Dark Scholar+0
Twisted Lord+0
Solar Channeler-2
[/spoiler]

Shining South
[spoiler]
Halruuan Elder+2
Crinti Shadow Marauder+1
Great Rift Deep Defender+0
Hand of the Adama+0
Jordain Vizier+0
Luiren Marchwarden+0
Maquar Crusader+0
Scourge Maiden+0
Halruuan Magehound-1
[/spoiler]

Stormwrack
[spoiler]
Legendary Captain (if naval combat is required)+2
Leviathan Hunter +1
Knight of the Pearl+0
Stormcaster+0
Scarlet Corsair (w/o capstone abuse)-1
Sea Witch-1
Wavekeeper-2
[/spoiler]

Tome of Battle
[spoiler]
Bloodclaw Master+1
Eternal Blade+1
Jade Phoenix Mage+1
Ruby Knight Vindicator+1
Shadow Sun Ninja+1
Deepstone Sentinel+0
Bloodstorm Blade (except 2 level dips)-1
Master of Nine (unless you can get some of the feats for "free")-1
[/spoiler]

Tome of Magic
[spoiler]
Anima Mage+2
Acolyte of the Ego+1
Disciple of the Word+1
Knight of Sacred Seal+1
Master of Shadow+1
Noctumancer+1
Scion of Dantalion+1
Witch Slayer (non-caster entry)+1
Child of Night+0
Fiendbinder+0
Shadowblade +0
Shadowsmith+0
Witch Slayer (gish entry)+0
Tenebrous Apostate-1
Bereft-2
Brimstone Speaker-2
[/spoiler]

Unapproachable East
[spoiler]
Runescarred Berserker+2
Telflammar Shadowlord+2
Aglarondan Griffonrider+1
Nentyar Hunter+1
Raumathari Battlemage+1
Shou Disciple+1
Nar Demonbinder+0
Talontar Blightlord+0
Thayan Slaver+0
Durthan-1
Master of the Yuirwood-1
[/spoiler]

Underdark
[spoiler]
Arachnomancer (Monk capitalizing on poison)+1
Cavelord+1
Drow Judicator+1
Deep Diviner+0
Imaskari Vengeance Taker+0
Prime Underdark Guide+0
Shadowcrafter+0
Vermin Keeper+0
Yathchol Webrider-1
[/spoiler]
: Tier System for PrCs – #4
: Suzerain July 26, 2009, 08:52:58 AM
Reserved just in case I find something useful to do with this space.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Optimator July 26, 2009, 07:32:40 PM
Great job formatting.  This is a really useful resource.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: The_Mad_Linguist July 26, 2009, 07:46:05 PM
I might be even tempted to drop solar channeler down to -2, since you lose three levels of casting, and gain nothing of value. 

Your class features lets you transform into something that's less powerful.  Oh, and you can't use your magic items.  And it costs a turn attempt per minute.

Seriously, there's no reason why you'd want to take it. 
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Salt_Crow July 26, 2009, 10:33:06 PM
Explorer's Handbook (Eberron supplement)

Cataclysm Mage [+1]
Logical Entry: Wizard 5 (many of its abilities are actually tied to Intelligence, not Charisma. This makes Sorcerer a much worse choice)

Reasoning: Very easy to qualify with DM cooperation or just a clever backstory ("must have had a vision"). 9/10 Spellcasting progression and you gain some odd AoE-damage dealing abilities and some odd bonuses, but the capstone ability: Choose any dragonmark from lesser to greater, which you may change each day. Catch? The dragons WILL kill you (it's not even a part of "CM in the world", it's a part of the ability that makes Eberron dragons want to kill you. Bad) when they know that you have this dragonmark-for-free abiliy.

For those of you who aren't familiar with dragonmarks, it translates roughly to: true seeing, find the path, animal growth, SNA V, heal, heroes' feast, mage's magnificent mansion, fabricate, major creation, overland flight, teleport, sending, globe of invulnerability, mislead, prying eyes, shadow walk, control winds, control weather, mage's faithful hound, greater glyph of warding OR guards and wards once per day. And that's just Greater Dragonmarks, and you can even take the Mark of Death, which requires much DM cooperation (can make someone a Lich upon death, if the legends are correct).

Any one of them, plus various bonuses and destructive abilities based on Intelligence (unlike many other PrCs with similar abilities) makes it a very potent wizard, especially if you are an Eberron person.

The catch (yet again): You must fulfill "personal prophecies" laid out in the class description to advance in the class. This includes easy tasks such as "Be swallowed whole" and "Die", but also more cryptic adventures such as "speak with a giant who never dreams" etc etc (total of 12). Therefore, unless your DM and fellow players are willing to cooperate (or unless you start at ECL 15 or higher), you may have some problems there.

Overall, a very, very nice class whose capstone ability gives you a virtual 6th-level or lower spell slot with predetermined spell-like abilities in them. Be careful around dragons though. They'll hate you for taking that capstone ability.

Also: this class (if it advances infusions) can enable you to make a Warforged Artificer 7/CM 10/Cannith Wand Adept 3, because you'll meet the dragonmark requirement of CWA then.


Thunder Guide [-1]
Logical Entry: Fighter 4, Barbarian 4, Ranger 4, Rogue 6 and so on. Not that hard to qualify, not that much to gain either.

Reasoning: 3/4 BAB and good Fort. Lets you gain some negligible bonuses based on your choices of "Thunder lore" and "Native ties" abilities, and the capstone ability makes you famous. Really! The capstone ability lets you use the title of "Lord" (or "Lady") in any of the Four Nations (r.i.p. Cyre), and lets you use transports for free. You're so famous that those "companies" (dragonmarked houses) benefit from just the fact that you were onboard with their transport. That's the capstone ability of the class.

If you haven't quite grasped the gist of it, the one before that (9th-level) gives you money. 1,000gp per point of Charisma you have, and that's the brand loyalty to write your stories in the most popular newspaper in the whole continent. Everyone in the world will know and love the over-the-top descriptions of your daring adventures.

So if you want to play a class that's actually based on gaining fame and fortune as its class ability, it's the class for you. CO perspective? Not so hot. Unless you want to play a guy called Guybrush Threepwood, because you can hold your breath for 1 minute per point of Constitution. Yes, you can hold your breath for ten minutes.


Windwright Captain [-2]
Logical Entry: Half-elf bard 7, artificer 7

Reasoning: 3/5 spellcasting progression (specifically advances infusion) that lets you control your own airship like it's your own body. I mean, really. You have to pay up to 9k XP to actually access the abilities that makes this class unique. So unless you're going to name your own airship Millenium Falcon and be a super-pilot, stay well away from the class.

2 levels of the class might be worth it if you want to borrow an airship indefinitely though. I'd just spend 92k and forget about it myself.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Sinfire Titan July 26, 2009, 10:40:59 PM
Shadowsun Ninja should be either +0 or +1 (Dmna's Monk builds only). +0 because no one in their right mind uses the capstone, but the rest of the class features are decent (especially the healing and Darkness ability), +1 because an optimized Monk can deal a shit ton of Negative and Positive energy with each attack. Any build that can deal 12d8+Str+Wis negative energy damage per hit and then turn around and heal an ally equal to the negative energy damage dealt is not a -1 PrC.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Nuntius Mortis July 26, 2009, 11:19:22 PM
I actually disagree about the Initiate of Pistis Sophia:

This class stacks the monk AC bonus, the unarmed strike damage, the flurry of blows, the speed and the ki strike progression (so that your ki strike could still be considered adamantine). Yes, a lot of Monk PrCs advance most monk abilities (AC bonus, unarmed strike, flurry, speed etc.) but not all advance the ki strike progression.

So, if a Monk multiclassed into Initiate of Pistis Sophia by 16 level (he can enter the class at 6) he could lose wholeness of body (which good but could easily be taken with one more monk level), diamond body, diamond soul, quivering palm, tongue of the sun of moon (while a nice ability fluff-wise, it's not that important if you're not the party face), empty body, perfect self, timeless body and the slow fall progression (but who cares about slow fall?), he could still get improved evasion and he would instead get detect evil at will (handy but not great of course), a smite attack (not so useful though), electricity resistance (not so big but still good), uncanny and improved uncanny dodge (always good in my book), celestial transformation (outsider (native) type and DR 10/evil) and 4 bonus feats (Fist of the Heavens and 3 sacred vows).

If you make the math it actually trades 8 class features for 10 class features (3 bonus sacred vows among them). Yes, sacred vows are restrictive but they give a lot of bonuses as well so if you're effectively planning on turning your Monk into a celestial that's the best way to do it. Also, if you wanted to take sacred vows with your Monk, this PrC could help you being less feat-intensive and save some space for feats like Touch of Golden Ice ;)

Overally, I believe that it is in no way a -1 PrC. I think that it's in the borders of weak +1 to strong +0.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: sonofzeal July 27, 2009, 02:40:27 AM
Heyhey there!  What's been going on in my lengthy absence? =P  If this is a subtle hint to update the list more, then I can get around to it some day.  I'm more than happy to see someone else take the helm though!



Book:  Fiend Folio

"Fiend of Blasphemy" - Totally focussed on getting people to do the ritual with you, but pretty sweet in the right context.  Highly campaign dependent, but I'd call it Equal to Up One, erring on the side of Up One just because of how well the mechanics support and augment the flavour.  Give this to a player in a freeform social campaign, and they'll take over the world in a year.

"Fiend of Corruption" - Grants wishes.  Up Two.  

"Fiend of Possession" - Possess a magic sword, give it +5 in properties it didn't already have, make it an Animated Object, get to Bestow Curse on anyone you hit, and if the sword breaks then you can just possess something else instead.  And that's before you start possession entire rooms, or people.  Up Two.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Salt_Crow July 27, 2009, 02:45:31 AM
Secrets of Xen'drik

Landforged Walker [-1] with Druid; [+1] with Cleric

Logical Entry: Cleric 5 (with Travel domain), Druid 5

Reasoning: 4/5 divine spellcasting progression, so you aren't losing all that much. What do you get in return? Body of Nature allows you to be your own holy symbol (no more O-chul style sunder), get some nice defensive bonuses (elemental resistance, natural armour increase and 50% fortification) and the ability to heal yourself or others up to 5xWis bonus 3 times a day (so lay on hands-like ability). This is already quite nice (although not worth that 1 CL loss) but the rest of the class abilities look rather duplicable (spell-like abilities 1/day etc etc) until you get Plant Shape.

Plant shape works as WS (plants)- 3/day, small to huge using total character level as effective druid level! This wouldn't be so hot for a druid who can just stick to the class and be much more effective. However, for clerics or rangers even, this is a great deal. A cleric for example, could WS into a huge Treant to cast spell normally (has hands and can speak) and wield weapons (armour not needed), as early as 10th level (a druid would get to do this at 15th level)!

I mean, this isn't as game-breaking as dweomerkeepers and co. and you do lose 1 CL for this. But for a melee-focused warforged cleric (w/ travel domain), this can definitely be an awesome choice indeed.


Primal Scholar [+0]

Logical Entry: Wizard 7

Reasoning: full spellcasting PrC (5/5), so as a wizard you're missing out on a few bonus feats. You get bardic knowledge-like ability wrt Xen'drik and gain a handful of mostly action point-related ancient secrets and power of Xen'drik. Things like Secret of Defiance (+1 competence bonus on saving throws against spells and spell-like abilities) or Mystery of Magic (choose 1 spell to cast spontaneously without preparing beforehand; up to spell level=class level only) would stand out as they do not need AP to fuel the use.

A flaw with this class would be the fact that it needs AP to fuel many of its abilities, so unless you have Unfettered Heroism going at all times, it's not going to make your wizard any better than it otherwise would. Also, as you cannot take the same ancient secret twice, you'll have to be careful which one to take as your 5th-level ancient secret.

Overall, +0 as it wouldn't be any better or worse than a straight wizard.


Scorpion Wraith [-1]

Logical Entry: Ranger 5

Reasoning: no spellcasting progression but full BAB. Notable abilities include 1/day blindsight (lasting 5+wis round) and 1+wis/day Poison (DC 15+wis) ability. Apart from them, sudden strike and some things that lets you ambush others better... but seriously, how many times is a PC going to ambush NPCs?

When the element of surprise is lost, so is most of the class features.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: The_Mad_Linguist July 27, 2009, 02:48:44 AM
Another note for the fiend of corruption: It's the only way to get fiendish symbiotes without DM action.  Including the awesome fiendish familiar.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: KellKheraptis July 27, 2009, 02:59:41 AM
I'd put the Spellguard of Silverymoon at +1 at least, as it progresses Metamagic faster than a straight Wizard or Sorcerer, and also gives an Archmage High Arcana (+1 Spell Power) for free, and none of that ties to the mythal.  Actually, nothing in the class save the token ties it to the mythal, and if it's in backstory, it's definitely +1 at least, IMHO.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Samb July 27, 2009, 03:10:01 AM
I have to say, I have always found this tier system to be much more valid than the base class system for the sole reason that it takes multi-classes into account (ie logical entry class) and I am thankful the Zeal's pet project is back and running.

I'll do an easy one

Dungeon Lord (from dungeonscape)
entry class: any "baddy" race with a castle or dungeon that needs defending.  Technically, a Elan or Synad could take this PrC since they are aberrations but mostly this will be a mind flayer or dragon, although a campign where you are an Elan defending yourself in a world where everything is trying to invade you might have its merits.

This will most likely be the BBEG of the Dungeon.  Not only is a formidable boss but he can boost his troops (horde lord gives +1-2 bonus on AR and damage to all your minions), get better ones (boost to leadership), teleport all over the you home and clairvoyance AT WILL (scales with your HD too not your class levels).  When these five levels are added to an young dragon with and army of goblins the bonuses add up.

Dungeon mastery is a great feature that allows you open and close doors as a free action, treat all terrain as smooth and not set off traps when you pass by them.  Dungeon minion lets your minions get all the same benefits (except for not setting off traps).

I would say this is a solid +1 and would be +2 if it was not so dependent on the specific dungeon. Now if your BBEG had the whole underdark as his dungeon......
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: The_Mad_Linguist July 27, 2009, 03:26:48 AM
Take the dungeon with you.  It's what being a stronghold builder is all about.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Emy July 27, 2009, 03:29:58 AM
Take the dungeon with you.  It's what being a stronghold builder is all about.

For extra fun be a Tomb Warden too, and have the dungeon also be a tomb.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: The_Mad_Linguist July 27, 2009, 03:31:21 AM
Take the dungeon with you.  It's what being a stronghold builder is all about.

For extra fun be a Tomb Warden too, and have the dungeon also be a tomb.
Well, duh.  And be a Hathran as well, and have a cohort who's a diplomat from Rasheman set up the place as his embassy.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Samb July 27, 2009, 03:34:59 AM
Take the dungeon with you.  It's what being a stronghold builder is all about.
Well nothing says that you can't have a new dungeon or more than one dungeon at a time.  So you could acquire a new dungeon "on the fly".  Like Gandulf during the siege of Gondor or something.  The race requirements is the only tricky part.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Brainpiercing July 27, 2009, 11:49:50 AM
As a suggestion: Put the logical entry class you considered for the evaluation as an entry in the sorted tables. Or even make another table based on entry classes.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: sonofzeal July 27, 2009, 05:32:39 PM
As a suggestion: Put the logical entry class you considered for the evaluation as an entry in the sorted tables. Or even make another table based on entry classes.
Problem - sometimes the logical entry is specific, and sometimes it's general, and sometimes it's complicated.  Ghost Faced Killer is compared to "Ninja", but Suel Arcanamach is compared to "any non-caster", and War Mind is compared to "multiclassed psi / non-psi".  I don't see an easy way to sort these things.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: PhaedrusXY July 27, 2009, 05:37:38 PM
Take the dungeon with you.  It's what being a stronghold builder is all about.

For extra fun be a Tomb Warden too, and have the dungeon also be a tomb.
Well, duh.  And be a Hathran as well, and have a cohort who's a diplomat from Rasheman set up the place as his embassy.
:lmao We should totally work this into the "Death of an Artist (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?board=81.0)" game somehow.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Suzerain July 27, 2009, 07:06:25 PM
Take the dungeon with you.  It's what being a stronghold builder is all about.

For extra fun be a Tomb Warden too, and have the dungeon also be a tomb.
Well, duh.  And be a Hathran as well, and have a cohort who's a diplomat from Rasheman set up the place as his embassy.
:lmao We should totally work this into the "Death of an Artist (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?board=81.0)" game somehow.
It's not enough for you to BE the ship, huh?

edits:

Anyways, it's nice to see back the long lost son - of zeal that is. Pardon the bad pun. (Make that extraordinarily bad).

In the spreadsheet version, I've already intended a column for the entry class(es). Sorting by entry may not be an attainable short-term goal, but actually listing the intended entry goes a long way to explain the rating a prc might get (cognition thief, anyone? :P). Which is why I've asked Gr1lledcheese to include that in his thread. Once you have a concrete entry in mind, it gets easier to analyse the losses and gains.

On a related note, Salt_Crow, you're me hero for the week.

There's one issue I'd like to take up with you guys: I was under the impression that we assumed PCs to take those PrCs. Because, y'know, the tier system was based on the overall campaign-impact. The overall campaign impact of an intermittant villain is like... not much. That's why I kicked out lots of the serpent kingdom PrCs, because they clearly required non-PC races (NOT because the book is responsible for pun-pun).

So I'd like a logical entry for the "fiends of" line from a player's perspective. I.e. something with +0 LA if at all possible. And possibly excluding Dungeon Lord from the list. (Because I think taking your giant, flying, unassailable castle with you all the time is cheesy. Not that I don't love the Death of an Artist game, because I do, but it's clearly the exception to the rule of: Don't do it).
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: The_Mad_Linguist July 27, 2009, 07:26:42 PM
Obvious entry is probably a character born on an evil plane who's a planetouched/ took the otherworldly feat...
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Suzerain July 27, 2009, 08:05:15 PM
Some 'disputed claims' in chronological order (will get to those in the old thread afterwards. be patient.)

I might be even tempted to drop solar channeler down to -2, since you lose three levels of casting, and gain nothing of value.  

Your class features lets you transform into something that's less powerful.  Oh, and you can't use your magic items.  And it costs a turn attempt per minute.

Seriously, there's no reason why you'd want to take it.
I'll have to take your word for it, I guess. Please do a post in Gr1lledcheese's thread, for all of us who don't have that book.

Shadowsun Ninja should be either +0 or +1 (Dmna's Monk builds only). +0 because no one in their right mind uses the capstone, but the rest of the class features are decent (especially the healing and Darkness ability), +1 because an optimized Monk can deal a shit ton of Negative and Positive energy with each attack. Any build that can deal 12d8+Str+Wis negative energy damage per hit and then turn around and heal an ally equal to the negative energy damage dealt is not a -1 PrC.
Will get back to you with the original rationale for this class, if any.
edit: There wasn't any. I'm seeing full IL advancement and a little less than half maneuvers/stances advancement. I'm not seeing why you wouldn't use the capstone ability (making sure to be immune to con damage for few rounds), since it's 1/day. It's like a soul eater dip, only for 1min/day. The abilities are all weak, as far as I can see, though. The negative/positive energy attacks require a standard action each and can't be used more than once per turn, or the same ability on two consecutive rounds. I'm not at all seeing this worth +0.

I actually disagree about the Initiate of Pistis Sophia:

This class stacks the monk AC bonus, the unarmed strike damage, the flurry of blows, the speed and the ki strike progression (so that your ki strike could still be considered adamantine). Yes, a lot of Monk PrCs advance most monk abilities (AC bonus, unarmed strike, flurry, speed etc.) but not all advance the ki strike progression.

So, if a Monk multiclassed into Initiate of Pistis Sophia by 16 level (he can enter the class at 6) he could lose wholeness of body (which good but could easily be taken with one more monk level), diamond body, diamond soul, quivering palm, tongue of the sun of moon (while a nice ability fluff-wise, it's not that important if you're not the party face), empty body, perfect self, timeless body and the slow fall progression (but who cares about slow fall?), he could still get improved evasion and he would instead get detect evil at will (handy but not great of course), a smite attack (not so useful though), electricity resistance (not so big but still good), uncanny and improved uncanny dodge (always good in my book), celestial transformation (outsider (native) type and DR 10/evil) and 4 bonus feats (Fist of the Heavens and 3 sacred vows).

If you make the math it actually trades 8 class features for 10 class features (3 bonus sacred vows among them). Yes, sacred vows are restrictive but they give a lot of bonuses as well so if you're effectively planning on turning your Monk into a celestial that's the best way to do it. Also, if you wanted to take sacred vows with your Monk, this PrC could help you being less feat-intensive and save some space for feats like Touch of Golden Ice ;)

Overally, I believe that it is in no way a -1 PrC. I think that it's in the borders of weak +1 to strong +0.
I want consensus on this first. Apostle of Peace is down so much because of its vows, iirc. Depending on which vows those are, it may be very limiting. I'd like others to state their opinion on this, though.

I'd put the Spellguard of Silverymoon at +1 at least, as it progresses Metamagic faster than a straight Wizard or Sorcerer, and also gives an Archmage High Arcana (+1 Spell Power) for free, and none of that ties to the mythal.  Actually, nothing in the class save the token ties it to the mythal, and if it's in backstory, it's definitely +1 at least, IMHO.
I tend to agree but will look at the specs of the class in a minute. edit: +1, I think. Low in that tier if you actually have to teleport back every week to do your 'duty', but high if it's in your backstory or you're in silverymoon all the time anyways.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Nuntius Mortis July 27, 2009, 08:38:50 PM
I want consensus on this first. Apostle of Peace is down so much because of its vows, iirc. Depending on which vows those are, it may be very limiting. I'd like others to state their opinion on this, though.

Of course, the vows are limiting. If they weren't limiting, they wouldn't been vows in the first place after all :P

Of course, there are vows that are less limiting as well. For example, the Vow of Abstistence or Vow of Chastity are not so restrictive (well, if you don't use the Book of Erotic Fantasy in your campaign but why would you want to play an Exalted Monk in such a campaign in the first place? :P). Vow of Poverty is also a personal favourite of mine despite its limitations to not use magical items (I don't much about' em personally but I know that most do).

Key point: One should take this PrC only if he wants to play an Exalted Monk and maybe becoming a Celestial Paragon in the process. True, most players wouldn't like something like that and thus wouldn't take this PrC. But to those that would like something like that the PrC would be useful.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Sinfire Titan July 27, 2009, 08:46:37 PM
Will get back to you with the original rationale for this class, if any.
edit: There wasn't any. I'm seeing full IL advancement and a little less than half maneuvers/stances advancement. I'm not seeing why you wouldn't use the capstone ability (making sure to be immune to con damage for few rounds), since it's 1/day. It's like a soul eater dip, only for 1min/day. The abilities are all weak, as far as I can see, though. The negative/positive energy attacks require a standard action each and can't be used more than once per turn, or the same ability on two consecutive rounds. I'm not at all seeing this worth +0.

One ally with Necropolitan or Tomb-Tainted Soul, and one living ally (or yourself for one of those two). Kuddos, infinite healing. Dman's Monk builds are also notorious for getting around 30 some-odd d8+Wis+Str damage on each attack he makes. Its effectively Heal and Harm at-will, with no save for half.

The Darkness sphere is huge, and effectively gives you blindsight while blinding everyone else in the radius every other round.


I'll go into a more detailed explanation later, but those two are the best parts.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Negative Zero July 27, 2009, 09:00:20 PM
Extrapolating the chart usually ends up with 32d8 damage per hit, last I checked. Naturally, it's possible to go over this if you optimize for it, but Dman tends to end up there.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Suzerain July 27, 2009, 09:38:40 PM
The text says "base damage" and it wouldn't make sense to be better at healing by hitting harder. But I don't want to argue the point. One question though, how many levels of shadow sun ninja do the builds exploiting this usually take? Not that I'm doubting the ability of the CO community to optimize this, I just think a single standard action to do 32d8 negative energy damage a hit pales in comparison to doing the same thing three to five times a turn (more if hasted). Of course, it's easier (near-guaranteed) to hit with a touch attack, but that would be an option, then. Not really worth taking all the levels.

The darkness sphere... eludes my rules-fu on how useful it would be, but it'd 'only' be every two rounds and your allies are potentially affected as well (unlike the light sphere).

edits:
Renegade mastermaker: +1 tier.  Only progresses casting/infusions 8/10s, IIRC, but for a gish it's pretty awesome. 

You see, you can buy max HP with this class at 10 gp each.  5 gp, if you craft them yourself, and since you're required to have the feats, why not?
I'd like someone to comment on this.

I'd like to contest Ebon Saint.
It's Dire Augs are strickly better than the lurk entry's augmentations, it even gives you a no restrictions alter form, which would make this a +0 or +1.
On this one even more.

I would nominate Cognition Thief for +2 since you can use it as a dip to get schism, mindlink (preq for the great thrallherd) or take it all the way for the game breaking psy chiurguery.
No. Dips don't count, thrallherd can be accessed with EK and psi chirurgy is better when someone else uses it and is also accessible through EK. A PrC that loses 4 ML almost per definition can't be +2. We've mulled over this class before, but unless you can reach consensus here (i.e. I'm not fighting this one out with you), I won't move a class into +2-territory just because you say so.
edit: Err, this sounds kinda harsh. It's nothing personal, I just don't see it and don't want to deal with it :shrug
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Negative Zero July 27, 2009, 10:34:08 PM
Fewer attacks per round is a concern, but so is the damage type. I've never heard of any creature that resists negative energy damage (except undead), while the number of creatures that resist bludgeoning damage is very, very high.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Suzerain July 27, 2009, 10:54:16 PM
Fewer attacks per round is a concern, but so is the damage type. I've never heard of any creature that resists negative energy damage (except undead), while the number of creatures that resist bludgeoning damage is very, very high.
I understand that, but I'm thinking this is a lot better if you're just dipping the class. If there's some evidence that this class is worth taking to 5th/6th level (although when you're that far in you'll probably want to go further), it would be a reason to bump it up.

It would be easier for me to see the value of the class if you'd state the logical entry for it, though. And I'm looking forward to the explanation of how to exploit the darkness sphere (and the corresponding ability to ignore blindness penalties and instead gain a bonus on other blinded creatures).
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Brainpiercing July 28, 2009, 08:27:07 AM

One ally with Necropolitan or Tomb-Tainted Soul, and one living ally (or yourself for one of those two). Kuddos, infinite healing. Dman's Monk builds are also notorious for getting around 30 some-odd d8+Wis+Str damage on each attack he makes. Its effectively Heal and Harm at-will, with no save for half.

The Darkness sphere is huge, and effectively gives you blindsight while blinding everyone else in the radius every other round.

 a
I'll go into a more detailed explanation later, but those two are the best parts.
Hmm, if Darkness=blinded for any creature within it (and without extra senses) then it might be good, although you only get +4 to attack and damage, and you have to blind yourself to anyone who isn't blinded, which kind of sucks. And yes, the way I see it this naturally affects your allies, unless they shield themselves from it, since the darkness is a burst.

The infinite healing is nice, I guess, in spite of the standard action. As a necropolitan this might be worthwhile (or any better undead template), if you can push your unarmed damage.
I still see lots of useless levels, though, and the usual 3/4 BAB crap.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Sinfire Titan July 28, 2009, 12:37:06 PM
The text says "base damage" and it wouldn't make sense to be better at healing by hitting harder. But I don't want to argue the point. One question though, how many levels of shadow sun ninja do the builds exploiting this usually take? Not that I'm doubting the ability of the CO community to optimize this, I just think a single standard action to do 32d8 negative energy damage a hit pales in comparison to doing the same thing three to five times a turn (more if hasted). Of course, it's easier (near-guaranteed) to hit with a touch attack, but that would be an option, then. Not really worth taking all the levels.

The darkness sphere... eludes my rules-fu on how useful it would be, but it'd 'only' be every two rounds and your allies are potentially affected as well (unlike the light sphere).

8, usually. 10 is tops, but the 9th and 10th levels don't offer much unless you get a ton of Unarmed Attacks/round.

The thing is, the healing ability is based off of the damage you deal, not the base unarmed damage for a creature of your size. If it intended to only be the base unarmed strike damage, it would have said to exclude your IUS damage entirely (thus it would be 1d3+Wis). Because it doesn't say this, it goes off of full unarmed damage. Dman has proven that this is easy to boost to the point where every attack deals a ton of damage.

The important part is that it's At Will. Get the party Wizard to use wands of Summon Undead 1 (or Animate Dead on a Frog), punch it once to inflict and then punch your buddy to heal them a ton of damage.

The Darkness trick works like this:

Round 1) Swift action, activate the Child of Shadow and Light and start with the Darkness sphere. Also, use the Darkness Within Light feature (and maybe a Scroll of True Strike or something that negates the 50% miss chance that round). Make a Hide check within the Darkness sphere. Hit the enemy once. Enemy is effectively blinded unless they have Blindsight (specifically). Darkvision doesn't see through this, though Baatezu probably can (won't matter next round). Effectively, this is imposing a 50% miss-chance on any enemy within the sphere, and your allies can just use a Blindfold of True Darkness or something to become immune (making sure the Wizard disables the enemy's magic items is a good idea for this trick, though it may not be needed unless the DM remembers to hand-pick their equipment).

Round 2) Invert Child of Shadow and Light, maintain Darkness within Light. Trigger Light Within Darkness. Every enemy within 60ft needs to save or be blinded for 1 round.

Round 3) Repeat from Round 1.



Effectively, you are forcing them to Save or Suck every other round, and forcing them to Be Prepared or Suck every other round. Mass Blindness is awesome to have at will, and the Darkness sphere is also effectively a Blindness ability. Your allies can be made immune using spells/magic items (so can the enemy, but that's why you have a Wizard).



Finally, Shadow Hand has some great maneuvers for mobility. You can easily use some of those boosts to sneak up on an enemy, then drop a sphere of darkness on their asses (or try Blinding them on round 1). The Dark Creature template (Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis) makes this PrC incredible. And Setting Sun has some of the best reactive maneuvers in the game, allowing you to play minor Battlefield Control if the enemy can't be blinded.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Suzerain July 28, 2009, 02:31:26 PM
Ok, you have convinced me. Sounds to me like +1, now. Levels 1, 4 and 8 have good abilities. What would the logical entry be? Do unarmed swordsages qualify automatically by level 5?
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Samb July 28, 2009, 06:16:43 PM

I'd like to contest Ebon Saint.
It's Dire Augs are strickly better than the lurk entry's augmentations, it even gives you a no restrictions alter form, which would make this a +0 or +1.
On this one even more.
I gave Ebon saint the -2 since I had the entry class as lurk.  The main reason is that it gives doesn't stack when determining lurk augments.  Alter form is nice, but you have to stab someone first.  All self respecting psionic users will take up EK: metamorphosis or research it ASAP.  Metamorph is plain better than alter form (both need metamorphic transfer so that is a moot point) and taking straight lurk also means you get a better power at about the same time since you lose a ML taking ebon saint.  Everything revolves around landing a dire strike, if you compare its capstone to cloud mind, cloud mind comes out on top since they only need to fail a will save.  Disappear from mind requires a successful dire strike AND a failed will save.
IF ebon saint class levels stacks with lurk augment levels then this might be the only PrC lurks would ever need, instead it sets them back in both ML and lurk augments, and the class abilities it grants are sub par when compared to the powers it is duplicating (and the fact that lurks can easily get them with research and EK).



I would nominate Cognition Thief for +2 since you can use it as a dip to get schism, mindlink (preq for the great thrallherd) or take it all the way for the game breaking psy chiurguery.
No. Dips don't count, thrallherd can be accessed with EK and psi chirurgy is better when someone else uses it and is also accessible through EK. A PrC that loses 4 ML almost per definition can't be +2. We've mulled over this class before, but unless you can reach consensus here (i.e. I'm not fighting this one out with you), I won't move a class into +2-territory just because you say so.
edit: Err, this sounds kinda harsh. It's nothing personal, I just don't see it and don't want to deal with it :shrug
You put cognition thief at +1 because I said so, don't start growing a backbone now!!!!!

Okay forget the dip parts, take it as a suggestion.

You are right, psi chirurgy is better when used on you, so use psi chirurgy to give someone psi chiurgy and you have a broken character (along with psyreform).  Forget thralls, you have charm and dominate, so you can just force them pimp you.  In the levels you lose ML give you 2 telepath powers, which is HUGE for a wilder since they lack powers.  Think about it wilder only gets 15 powers in 20 levels (using the educated variant).  A cognition thief will gain 11 powers in 10 levels.  That is equal to how much a regular wilder gains his whole pre-epic career!  So you increase you powers known, don't lose any high level powers (thanks to practised manifester) and gain a bunch of PLA (like read thoughts AT WILL) all for a bad feat and lose of around 130 power points (wild surge makes up for this).

No, you can't get psi chirury with EK.  You would need to have level 10 powers before you can pick level 9 powers.  So unless you plan to go epic this is the only way for a non telepath to get it (or have it implanted into your head).
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Sinfire Titan July 28, 2009, 06:25:21 PM
Ok, you have convinced me. Sounds to me like +1, now. Levels 1, 4 and 8 have good abilities. What would the logical entry be? Do unarmed swordsages qualify automatically by level 5?

Yeah. Swordsage 5 gets in, you just need IUS (so even the armored version does). Dman's Monk builds typically have 1 or 2 levels of Monk to start the unarmed shenanigans off, but if you don't mind only healing a few points every other round and just want to abuse the Blindness ability then Swordsage works just fine.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Samb July 28, 2009, 07:06:24 PM
Ok I read the ebon saint thread and all I can say is this:  Any psionic class should and will go for metamorphosis.  This can be done with being a egoist, a shifter wilder, the natural world mantle (ardent, divine mind, ACF for psywar and wilder) or EK.  If you told me the entry for this class was rogue/psion I'd say you sac'd 2 ML of psion to gain alter from when you could have just taken metamorphosis at around the same time.  The fact metamorphosis is better and doesn't require a successful dire strike is just insult to injury.

No matter how you look at it ebon sucks.  It's features all rely on dire strike and are inferior to the the power and you get it later or about the same time.  This PrC really should never have been made.  Cloud mind is it's capstone......at level 15 psion you could get mass cloud mind.  I hope that puts things into perceptive.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Surreal July 29, 2009, 05:33:58 AM
Renegade mastermaker: +1 tier.  Only progresses casting/infusions 8/10s, IIRC, but for a gish it's pretty awesome. 

You see, you can buy max HP with this class at 10 gp each.  5 gp, if you craft them yourself, and since you're required to have the feats, why not?
I'd like someone to comment on this.
It's a specific build, but a reasonably strong one at that. There's a link with discussion on it in my handy links at 339. I believe it starts as a psionic artificer and you load up with slotless items that grant pp and powers, while simultaneously crank up your hp. If the PC has a means to generate cash and has no time limit, he churns all his resources into permanently augmenting himself.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: The_Mad_Linguist July 29, 2009, 10:18:33 AM
It's not really that specific a build.  It's using the seventh level ability just as intended - item crafting is a prereq for even entering.

The ridiculously low prices for HP come from adding in warforged component-ized versions of 10gp psionic shards, but even a 50gp gray ioun stone works.

You *could* use it to implant lots of pp-granting items, but you don't have to by any means, and several thousand hit points is gishtastic.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Suzerain August 06, 2009, 07:41:18 AM
Obvious entry is probably a character born on an evil plane who's a planetouched/ took the otherworldly feat...
You need to have the evil subtype. Have you forgotten that, or else, which part of what you said does the magic? Also, you need to have charm person/monster as SLA for FoC and an SLA of 4th lvl or higher for FoB.


"Fiend of Blasphemy" - Totally focussed on getting people to do the ritual with you, but pretty sweet in the right context.  Highly campaign dependent, but I'd call it Equal to Up One, erring on the side of Up One just because of how well the mechanics support and augment the flavour.  Give this to a player in a freeform social campaign, and they'll take over the world in a year.
Looking for a suitable race as I speak.

"Fiend of Corruption" - Grants wishes.  Up Two.
Not quite. The wishes aren't free. Nobody really wants "spend 5000xp" as their class feature. The soul you're getting in return isn't really worth much afaik and real soul binding is definitely preferable. As it stands, it gives a bunch of 1/day spell-likes, atonement at will and mind-shielding (ring of mind shielding costs 8000gp). Alternate form is really crazy because then you'll be a PC who is an outsider trying to be humanoid. Probably has its uses, but I'm not seeing them. This would go into the -1 to -2 pile in my book. Still trying to find an 1HD outsider with charm person...

edit: Touch of Captivation gives charm person, and should be aquirable if you're already an outsider with the evil subtype.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: The_Mad_Linguist August 06, 2009, 12:42:06 PM
As far as I can tell, you get the evil subtype if you're an outsider native to an evil plane.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Suzerain August 06, 2009, 01:18:02 PM
Neraphim are natives to Limbo and don't get the [chaotic] subtype.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Tshern August 06, 2009, 01:22:32 PM
edit: Touch of Captivation gives charm person, and should be aquirable if you're already an outsider with the evil subtype.
Half-fey template too.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Suzerain August 06, 2009, 01:34:42 PM
edit: Touch of Captivation gives charm person, and should be aquirable if you're already an outsider with the evil subtype.
Half-fey template too.
Nice one - but it has LA+2..
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Tshern August 06, 2009, 02:01:36 PM
Sure does. Too bad Otherworldly in conjunction with Dragonwrought and Draconic reservoir doesn't work...
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Suzerain August 06, 2009, 02:13:17 PM
Sure does. Too bad Otherworldly in conjunction with Dragonwrought and Draconic reservoir doesn't work...
Kobold, Ruathar and chaos feat shuffle. Start as Kobold from Sildėyuir/Evermeet (good luck with that), take Ruathar along the line and then use the chaos feat shuffle to replace that flaw-bonus feat with otherworldy. Haven't checked the books for Ruathar, but it should work.

edit: Crap, Ruathar doesn't make you an elf, unfortunately... I thought it worked like stoneblessed :-/
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Nuntius Mortis August 06, 2009, 03:07:52 PM
Neraphim are natives to Limbo and don't get the [chaotic] subtype.

Actually, that makes a lot of sense for Neraphim fluffwise. After all, they're the hunters of the Chaos Beast ;)
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: The_Mad_Linguist August 06, 2009, 04:22:28 PM
Well, in that case, you have to resort to savage species.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Nuntius Mortis August 06, 2009, 04:33:39 PM
Well, in that case, you have to resort to savage species.

+1

Although, I think that the Savage Progressions prevent you from multiclassing unless you've taken all the levels in the progression. There's a rule about that in pg. 27 under the "Monster Classes and Multiclassing" section.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: The_Mad_Linguist August 06, 2009, 04:38:00 PM
Well, in that case, you have to resort to savage species.

+1

Although, I think that the Savage Progressions prevent you from multiclassing unless you've taken all the levels in the progression. There's a rule about that in pg. 27 under the "Monster Classes and Multiclassing" section.
I mean one of the rituals.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Epinephrine August 26, 2009, 03:40:42 PM
I'd like to suggest that the Beastmaster PrC be reduced to a -2 tier PrC.  

Reasons:
You give up 10 levels of full casting
You give up 10 levels of wild shape progression

In return, you get a +3 to the level of your main animal companion, full BAB, and d10 HD.
The other abilities are pretty useless; the extra animal companions that are gained are based off your class level, not your druid level - so they are of virtually no use at all.  Do you beome a lord of beasts, with companions at your beck and call?  Not so much.

A Druid 10/Beastmaster 10 has casting as a 10th level druid, and has 4 animal companions equivalent to:
a level 23 druid's companion (yay!),
a level 7 druid's companion (Umm, hello?),
a level 4 druid's companion (what!?),
a level 1 druid's companion (wtf?),

yeah, those companions suck.  They are so low level that they are one-shotted by anything you face.  The class fails to provide what it is meant to provide.  The only time the class can be good is as a 1 level dip to boost the power of your animal companion by 3 effective druid levels, and even then you are trading away your spell advancement and a level of wildshape advancement for a marginally tougher AC.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: bearsarebrown August 26, 2009, 05:51:02 PM
A Druid 10/Beastmaster 10 has casting as a 10th level druid, and has 4 animal companions equivalent to:
a level 23 druid's companion (yay!),
a level 7 druid's companion (Umm, hello?),
a level 4 druid's companion (what!?),
a level 1 druid's companion (wtf?),

I always assumed that the extra companion were at a -3/-6/-9 to your AC level, but you're right, it's the the Beastmaster level only. And the errata says that Natural Bond will only work on one of them!

That's horrible!
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Havok4 August 26, 2009, 07:55:49 PM
It is fairly good if your are a non-druid however, it is one of the sources of the supermount build's power.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: KellKheraptis August 26, 2009, 09:40:18 PM
I would put both the Eldritch Disciple and Eldritch Theurge at +1, given that they both are full progression, add unique and in both cases have powerful abilities (RTA to negate the save to a save or suck, w00t!) that improve upon or increase the versatility of the base classes.  While less so for the ED on the Cleric side, they add a LOT to a Warlock, so I guess you have to look at them from a Warlock PoV, as there isn't a whole lot more you can get out of a Cleric or Wizard :P

Also, it should be noted that ED is a LOT more powerful and IMO optimal when joined to an Ur-Priest, but that may be because Ur's are Ungodly (literally) already.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: woodenbandman August 27, 2009, 12:20:56 AM
I contest the status of Fochlucan Lyrist as a -2/+1 (or was it -1/up2?)class depending on method of obtaining evasion. It's hardly +1 considering Druid is pretty much required and Druid is a tier class if I've ever seen one. It definitely doesn't bring a bard based character up to the level of a druid. Taking a 2 level detour into Rogue is hardly anything for a character who wants the best of druid utility/stealth casting and bardic party buffage. yeah, it'd be better without that 2 level detour, but you're losing Inspire Courage +4 and mass suggestion already anyway, it hardly matters that you lose whatever else you lose. It's not like inspire courage optimization requires that many actual bard levels anyway.

I suggest it be a +0 class, because it fulfills a different role than a druid or a bard, and it's sort of akin to a beguiler. It focuses on battlefield control and a bit of buffing rather than the raw melee damage of a rogue or druid, and it's got a definite stealth/skill focus. It'll fit naturally into a normal party, because it doesn't lose any ground in covering its designated role, which is skillmonkeying with some light spellcasting. It also happens to grant full BAB and dual full casting, so I can see where the idea that it's a very high tier increase comes from, but it doesn't actually compare to an actual druid which is the class that is half the concept.

So overall, it's a +1 if you consider the character a bard, a -1 if you consider the character a druid, and probably awesome either way.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: PlzBreakMyCampaign August 27, 2009, 11:53:05 AM
What am I missing about Gwynharwyf and void discple? Why are they up 2 tiers? I could see the former as high +1 and the latter as -1 (maybe even +0 but it loses FIVE caster levels). I must have missed something...
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: sonofzeal August 27, 2009, 02:07:57 PM
I'd like to suggest that the Beastmaster PrC be reduced to a -2 tier PrC. 

Reasons:
You give up 10 levels of full casting
You give up 10 levels of wild shape progression

In return, you get a +3 to the level of your main animal companion, full BAB, and d10 HD.
The other abilities are pretty useless; the extra animal companions that are gained are based off your class level, not your druid level - so they are of virtually no use at all.  Do you beome a lord of beasts, with companions at your beck and call?  Not so much.

A Druid 10/Beastmaster 10 has casting as a 10th level druid, and has 4 animal companions equivalent to:
a level 23 druid's companion (yay!),
a level 7 druid's companion (Umm, hello?),
a level 4 druid's companion (what!?),
a level 1 druid's companion (wtf?),

yeah, those companions suck.  They are so low level that they are one-shotted by anything you face.  The class fails to provide what it is meant to provide.  The only time the class can be good is as a 1 level dip to boost the power of your animal companion by 3 effective druid levels, and even then you are trading away your spell advancement and a level of wildshape advancement for a marginally tougher AC.
It's obviously not a Druid class though.  Consider both the book it's from, and the sample NPC, imply a Ranger focus.  It also gets the same HD, BAB, saves, and skillpoints as a Ranger.  None of that (except the skillpoints) lines up with Druids.

What am I missing about Gwynharwyf and void discple? Why are they up 2 tiers? I could see the former as high +1 and the latter as -1 (maybe even +0 but it loses FIVE caster levels). I must have missed something...
Gwynharwyf - on the low end of its tier.  It's mostly there because omfg this class gives way too many advantages over straight Barbarians.  Innate spellcasting is always a substantial power boost, Divine Grace is huge, immunity to charms and compulsions is something every character needs eventually (and most can only beg it from the Wizard), and just as a bonus you get smite and a combination of resistance 10 to three elements and DR that scales twice as fast as the base class.  What do you give up in return?  Uhhh.... one feat that's great for CG Barbarians anyway (as it allows them to take, oh, say Frenzied Berserker), and admittedly one dummy feat.  Oh, and trap sense, you don't get trap sense any more.  Shock, horror.

Void Disciple - I was the one who rated this originally, and I asked multiple times for second opinions.  It loses a whole bunch of caster levels, and if you're looking just at that then yeah, "thou shalt not give up caster levels" and whatnot.  Here's the thing though, look what it does get.  Sense Void isn't explicitly based off of "scry" (the word never comes up) so it provides for no duration limit, no method of warding, no method of detection.  Moment of Clarity can give anyone any feat in the game temporarily, whether or not they qualify for it, even epic feats.  Void Suppression is basically an instant no-save Save-or-Lose (so, basically just a "lose") against anything that has even a single dump stat which is darn near everything.  That said, hey, you give up a lot of caster levels.  So... yeah, I still think the class is completely ridiculous either way.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: bearsarebrown August 27, 2009, 02:15:24 PM
What am I missing about Gwynharwyf and void discple? Why are they up 2 tiers? I could see the former as high +1 and the latter as -1 (maybe even +0 but it loses FIVE caster levels). I must have missed something...

Remember that the tiers aren't based on how strong the prestige class it, but how much STRONGER it makes the base class. Gwynharwyf is a good prestige class, as you admit, but don't look at it like that, look at what it gives to a Barbarian. It VASTLY improved the barbarian in almost every way. Your saves get way better, you effectly don't need to make Will saves anymore, you can cast spells!
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: PlzBreakMyCampaign August 27, 2009, 04:33:49 PM
Hehe I know bears (i r !n00b) but the 'low tier 2' is an acceptable answer. The spells aren't are few and low level, its the same saves set, Immune to mind-effects isn't hard to get, etc. But okay Its a good prc for a barb. (I forgot the frenzied berserker common feat)

SonOf i love your insight on the void disciple. Lets look at this. The sense your surrounds stuff is only 1/day -> 7/day. So its not mindsight on crack (but the non-detection is cool). Since the skill bonuses are so temporary this ability, while flavorful is very situational and limited. The same goes for feats. I repeat the limitation means no breaking open prereq's or anything like that. I don't usually think about epic feats but... Most epic feats aren't that great if you lack the ability to use epic casting. The only useful thing I can find is an easier way to do things like gargantuan, colossal, outsider, etc wild shaping for 1 use.

I don't know if the math works out well enough for void suppression. Not everything has a massive negative mod dump stat. And even if it does it better have good base saves... Also the capstone ability is crap. I'd consider this PrC a +1 for a 1 level dip (the senses thing is cool). It just isn't worth 9th and 8th level spells...
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Nuntius Mortis August 31, 2009, 01:37:28 PM
What am I missing about Gwynharwyf and void discple? Why are they up 2 tiers? I could see the former as high +1 and the latter as -1 (maybe even +0 but it loses FIVE caster levels). I must have missed something...
Gwynharwyf - on the low end of its tier.  It's mostly there because omfg this class gives way too many advantages over straight Barbarians.  Innate spellcasting is always a substantial power boost, Divine Grace is huge, immunity to charms and compulsions is something every character needs eventually (and most can only beg it from the Wizard), and just as a bonus you get smite and a combination of resistance 10 to three elements and DR that scales twice as fast as the base class.  What do you give up in return?  Uhhh.... one feat that's great for CG Barbarians anyway (as it allows them to take, oh, say Frenzied Berserker), and admittedly one dummy feat.  Oh, and trap sense, you don't get trap sense any more.  Shock, horror.

Champion of Gwynharwyf is admiteddly a lot better than a straight Barbarian but it has serious MAD problems. You need Wis for spells and Cha for Divine Grace and as a Barbarian you already need good Str, Dex and Con. Other than that, I agree that it is at least a +1 PrC.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: PlzBreakMyCampaign October 03, 2009, 01:45:24 PM
I love this thread and use it for my recent thread.

I was wondering if paragon classes are represented here?

Also I thought I'd say that the Legacy Champion PrC is a +0. Its a strange, almost doubly class. You get average hit dice and low skills with only good will saves and cleric BaB. That all seems usual. There is not any set entry class (it has the extremely high prereq of being TENTH level to start). I was thinking a bard. It looses two caster levels but gives 2 feats and some very specific abilities. There now I contributed a whole book :)
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: InnaBinder October 03, 2009, 03:14:35 PM
I'm seconding PlzBreakMyCampaign's confusion about Void Disciple being up 2 tiers, while eating 5 caster levels....
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Suzerain October 03, 2009, 05:14:01 PM
I'll get to this tomorrow morning/midday. Just have to not forget it.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Suzerain October 04, 2009, 07:19:30 AM
I was wondering if paragon classes are represented here?

I think they should be. We should treat them as 3-level PrCs and list them under UA.

Also I thought I'd say that the Legacy Champion PrC is a +0. Its a strange, almost doubly class. You get average hit dice and low skills with only good will saves and cleric BaB. That all seems usual. There is not any set entry class (it has the extremely high prereq of being TENTH level to start). I was thinking a bard. It looses two caster levels but gives 2 feats and some very specific abilities. There now I contributed a whole book :)

If I didn't know so few things about legacy items, I probably would've done that, too. I know I read a thread once where someone did a gnome that focused on his legacy item and it was somehow proven to be a very good trade. Whether it's sensible for a fullcaster to enter legacy champion, I'm not sure. I think if we make a ranking for legacy champion, we need to compare it to en equivalent character that's just done the legacy rituals normally. So the ideal character for legacy champion would use times/day abilities which he would get an extra use out of from legacy champion. Also something that could use those extra legacy feats.

We could also say it's unique in that besides bloodlines, it is the only way to extend certain class features beyond their cap (and in the case of hellfire warlock or war weaver or abjurant champion, I would say that totally works and makes sense since you're a "legacy champion", a legendary character, after all). Of course that depends on the DM, but I think it needs to be captured in a ranking somehow. Just polling for ideas here. We could have 2 rankings, or just one.

So, basically, I'd probably agree with +0 for partial spellcasters, but that's more of an evaluation in a vacuum. Opinions please.

I'm seconding PlzBreakMyCampaign's confusion about Void Disciple being up 2 tiers, while eating 5 caster levels....

I'm inclined to agree. For the main rating, 7 levels of Void Disciple must be taken (54%). The only interesting abilities are the senses thing, which is the only way apart from being a deity to extend your senses that far; everything that blocks regular senses should work against it though. The other interesting thing is the feat thing, which you can use 2/day by level 4. You can (probably) give yourself an epic feat which you won't have to qualify for, but only for a minute or so. I can see this as being useful in some circumstances, but you really should just let your cohort take a 4-level dip in this prc and take a real prc instead. Maybe I'll open a challenge thread where we come up with PC builds using a good amount of void disciple. If we can't come up with anything genuinely useful, I'd think the class floats around a low -1 actually.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: snakeman830 October 04, 2009, 04:41:21 PM
Pyrokinetecist is from Expanded Psionics Handbook, not Sandstorm.  It's also got much easier entry and better features than the Cryokinetecist at the cost of dealing fire damage instead of cold (but both are frequently resisted and/or immune).
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: KellKheraptis October 04, 2009, 04:59:14 PM
Legacy Champion is too dependent upon both the class it advances, and what classes it can advance.  It is used in my "Ultimate Mage" to get extra spells and spell levels into the Eldritch Tapestry of War Weaver, and most definitely adds a lot of flexibility (read : the rest of my freaking spell list) to an already Tier 1 character with two +2 Tier PrC's.  In this case, I'd call it +2 Tier.  If it weren't doing something like that for a class, but still helping (say on a Warlock that's also adding a ton more versatility than they have inherently, along with special abilities not normally accessible), I'd say it's +1.  For someone like a Favored Soul, while it slows spell progression a bit, it adds different, though not necessarily weaker or stronger, powers, and is in general a lateral move for more options vs. raw power.  For a Cleric (or Druid, or most of either, anyhow), it's actually delaying and gimping the class, as it has worse saves, worse casting, the same BAB, and no real abilities the Cleric doesn't have access to already.  And for a Wizard without a GOOD reason to take it, it's the cardinal sin, at -2.  Also, if the DM gimps it outright, it's hardly worth a rating.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Suzerain October 04, 2009, 05:53:36 PM
Pyrokinetecist is from Expanded Psionics Handbook, not Sandstorm.  It's also got much easier entry and better features than the Cryokinetecist at the cost of dealing fire damage instead of cold (but both are frequently resisted and/or immune).

Thanky you. I fixed the book thing, but I can't comment on the class, AFB right now. It's possible that one of them is low in -1 and the other high, though.

Legacy Champion is too dependent upon both the class it advances, and what classes it can advance.  It is used in my "Ultimate Mage" to get extra spells and spell levels into the Eldritch Tapestry of War Weaver, and most definitely adds a lot of flexibility (read : the rest of my freaking spell list) to an already Tier 1 character with two +2 Tier PrC's.  In this case, I'd call it +2 Tier.  If it weren't doing something like that for a class, but still helping (say on a Warlock that's also adding a ton more versatility than they have inherently, along with special abilities not normally accessible), I'd say it's +1.  For someone like a Favored Soul, while it slows spell progression a bit, it adds different, though not necessarily weaker or stronger, powers, and is in general a lateral move for more options vs. raw power.  For a Cleric (or Druid, or most of either, anyhow), it's actually delaying and gimping the class, as it has worse saves, worse casting, the same BAB, and no real abilities the Cleric doesn't have access to already.  And for a Wizard without a GOOD reason to take it, it's the cardinal sin, at -2.  Also, if the DM gimps it outright, it's hardly worth a rating.

We choose tiers by best entry (discounting prcs as entries, usually, but I'm lenient). Looks like we need 2 rankings then. One for prc advancing (because that's the the application of the legacy champion) and one for the best possible entry without advancing prcs with it. We need to compare it to a character with a legacy item though, because everyone can have them, and needn't even pay feats for them (you just do the rituals and get the feats). So is there a reason why you would want to take legacy champion as a legacy item user? As a spellcaster, you have much to lose and few things to gain. You have more uses of some abilities, and 2 legacy feats, that's it.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: PlzBreakMyCampaign October 06, 2009, 12:24:46 PM
Hehe. I know a lot about legacy weapons. I am not sure if I am in favor of splitting the rating into two, though it would make sense. I would like to submit that if we break it up it should be on the basis of 2 things. The first would be that this is obviously used for advancing finished classes. This is why I mentioned the class as sort of a strange doubly. The second thing however should be if the class necessarily allows you to progress a class to its next (epic) level of a Prestige. Thats where it gets real nasty even if you don't allow any epic feats or abilities.

Keep in mind that just like bloodlines most people use custom legacy weapons. The stated legacy items generally suck and have suboptimal costs. The Legacy Champion class is the easiest way to avoid that misery if your DM was mean and allowed legacy weapons but not custom ones.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: kobo1d November 11, 2009, 07:00:14 PM
Is this discontinued? What about Complete Champion? My thoughts:

Fist of the Forest +1
Forest Reeve -1
Holt Warden +1
Mythic Exemplar +0, varies by path
Ordained Champion +1
Paragnostic Apostle +1
Paragnostic Initiate -1
Sanctified One -1, except Kord Blasters
Shadowspy -2
Shadowstriker -1
Squire of Legend +0, varies by path

: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Suzerain November 12, 2009, 05:48:08 PM
It's not principally discountinued, I just don't have much time in recent days. If someone would stirr up discussion, I'd appreciate it :) I'd still have time to update the files if everyone were to agree on ratings.

My review of the two reviewed Eberron books is actually still pending. I just never found the time or motivation to post it.

Let's see what I can do during christmas holidays.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Brainpiercing November 13, 2009, 05:11:48 AM
Is this discontinued? What about Complete Champion? My thoughts:

Ordained Champion +1

I would tend to disagree about +1, although it can make a NON-DMM cleric a good deal more melee suitable. I would leave it at +0, and +1 if DMM is either disallowed or made impractical.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Samb November 13, 2009, 01:01:26 PM
All this talk about legacy champ made me think of uncanny trickster. It gives you a bunch of skill ranks, more free skill tricks, more uses of your favored tricks and advances "class features" in 2/3 levels. It is only 3 levels but it seems to offer a lot more than legacy champ and allows you advance PrC.  Wonder if that would change it's ranking, currently it's +1 but at only 3 levels it's hard to say it would make big difference. 
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: PlzBreakMyCampaign November 15, 2009, 05:08:30 AM
All this talk about legacy champ made me think of uncanny trickster. It gives you a bunch of skill ranks, more free skill tricks, more uses of your favored tricks and advances "class features" in 2/3 levels. It is only 3 levels but it seems to offer a lot more than legacy champ and allows you advance PrC.  Wonder if that would change it's ranking, currently it's +1 but at only 3 levels it's hard to say it would make big difference. 
The reason Legacy Champ would be good is the +1class abuse. Though this class can do that, it doesn't do it as well. So I see them at the same ranking (since the other stuff might balance them to equality)
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Samb November 15, 2009, 04:54:20 PM
: PlzBreakMyCampaign link=topic=5198.msg210097#msg210097 date=
The reason Legacy Champ would be good is the +1class abuse. Though this class can do that, it doesn't do it as well. So I see them at the same ranking (since the other stuff might balance them to equality)
I have no idea what "does it better" mean when you say it. Either it advances class features or it doesn't I don't see much difference. Uncanny trickster is harder to qualifiy for and only advances 2/3 if that is what you mean.    
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: The_Mad_Linguist November 15, 2009, 05:06:24 PM
Your ratio for legacy champion is better.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Akalsaris November 15, 2009, 06:38:44 PM
Oddly enough I was just looking at the legacy champion when I read your post, PlzBreakMyCampaign :P 

I'd agree with the assessment that it's +0.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Bloody Initiate November 15, 2009, 07:31:40 PM
The Shadowmagic PrCs Shadowblade and Shadowsmith are in +0. Imo the Shadowblade is horrible, a -2 for sure. It had semi-useful abilities it can't use that many times per day. One of its abilities is crappy low-light.

The Shadowsmith is probably a -1 by itself, but it's not bad for a short dip if you later go into something that enhances weapons/armor.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: HCL December 16, 2009, 01:09:01 AM
Not to be a necro, but I feel Horizon walker should be at least +0, if only in a core only setting. Some of the abilities are a good trade compared to much of what you would get from another standard level of Ranger, Barbarian or Fighter.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Sinfire Titan December 16, 2009, 02:43:13 PM
Not to be a necro, but I feel Horizon walker should be at least +0, if only in a core only setting. Some of the abilities are a good trade compared to much of what you would get from another standard level of Ranger, Barbarian or Fighter.

Two of the major abilities can be duplicated by feats...
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Empirate December 16, 2009, 08:04:12 PM
Your Cityscape writeup seems to be missing a couple of PrCs.

Ebonmar Infiltrator: +0

Reasoning based on a Rogue 5 entry (other possible entries would be anything that can manage the steep skill reqs and has two feats to burn):

Pro: Continues your role as a skillmonkey and most other roguey stuff, including Sneak Attack (+3d6 over eight levels, sadly no progression for levels 9 and 10). Provides small bonuses to focus you on your infiltrator role, including welcome bonuses to Initiative and AC. Hide in Plain Sight (Ranger variant). Blindsense (5' only, though). The real seller is that you get your own - narrowly focused but useful - spell list.

Con: Takes two very very crappy feats to qualify for, in an already (very likely) feat-strapped build. Only 6+Int skillpoints/lvl, no Use Magic Device. Assassin has a strictly better spell list, if only because it is supported in many 3.5 books. No real signature ability (you can read War&Peace in a little over an hour though  :twitch).

General note: The Ebonmar Infiltrator does what a PrC is supposed to do: sharpen (and narrow) the focus of what your character can do. Excellent design in this regard. Sadly, it's a bit lacking in giving you additional Oomph! in your chosen area of expertise.


Crimson Scourge: +1

Reasoning based on an entry combining some martial classes (Urban Ranger, Fighter, Barbarian, Hexblade...):

Pro: Full BAB, 2 good saves (Fort and Ref), 6+Int skillpoints (good list), d10 HP, easy requirements except for 8 rks in Handle Animal (wtf?!). The first few levels are nothing special otherwise: Kid Gloves (deal nonlethal damage or lethal damage without penalty), Swift Tracker (applies only to Urban Tracking), Painful Strike (highly circumstantial, unimpressive damage bonus), Immovable Heart (small bonus vs. Enchantment and Fear) - all a bit lackluster. At 5th level, you get Improved Disarm, but if you want to disarm people, you should take that feat a little earlier, I'd say. But hey, it's a free feat.
Only at 7th level (Threaten ability) does the Crimson Scourge get something really worthwhile: Not only do you get a +2 bonus on Intimidate checks to demoralize an opponent (kthx), you can also do so as a move action (yay!), and the opponent stays demoralized for 1 round per point of your Str bonus (YAY!). Now this leads to some nice and easy fear stacking, and with the right build, you can do that all by yourself. This awesome ability is worth 7 levels of a PrC with lackluster abilities, but resting on a strong chassis.
Immunity to pain and nonlethal damage (gained at 8th) and Smell of Blood (Scent ability and +3 Initiative, gained at 10th) round the PrC off nicely.

Con: The class is built on a Ranger chassis, but does not get Ranger goodies, most of all no spellcasting, but also no Fighting Style, no Favored Enemy etc. All these are replaced by merely OK abilities, of which only one really shines. Even the Threaten ability needs a certain amount of optimization to function properly. Some class abilities are so situational as not to warrant the ink they're printed with. Build might be feat strapped (lack of Bonus feats except for surprising and largely useless Improved Disarm).

General note: The Crimson Scourge is very good at what it does (bringing small-time criminals and offenders back alive). Unfortunately, this is usually not needed in an adventuring party. However, the Threaten ability is quite glorious in its own right, and works well with many many things. Do not enter from Ranger 5, or you'll be disappointed. Optimize it, and it will become better than your fundament.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Empirate December 16, 2009, 08:11:11 PM
Also, need to comment on your rating of the Red Wizard. The PrC is clearly a +2, being easily as abusable as an Incantatrix. Circle magic! Have you ever read what that can do? Amazing stuff, to say the least.

Oh, and btw: Great work accumulating this resource! I mean in no way to criticize, just laying my finger on a disputable point there. Keep it up!
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: deuxhero December 17, 2009, 06:03:55 PM
Not to be a necro, but I feel Horizon walker should be at least +0, if only in a core only setting. Some of the abilities are a good trade compared to much of what you would get from another standard level of Ranger, Barbarian or Fighter.

Two of the major abilities can be duplicated by feats...

The two being? Dark vision, immunity to fatigue... ok the rest of the terrain mastery are crap. Then the planar mastries, DD/1d4 rounds (nicest thing melee gets in core), Tremor sense, immunitys to a few SoDs (Holy Word and it's kin) and a few items, energy resistance 20? Quite a bit better than Ranger or Fighter for more levels, possibly barbarian as well.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: InnaBinder December 17, 2009, 10:54:54 PM
[quibble] it's = it is.  you most likely meant "its"[/quibble]
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Glutton December 18, 2009, 12:34:06 AM
Is this discontinued? What about Complete Champion? My thoughts:

Fist of the Forest +1
Forest Reeve -1
Holt Warden +1
Mythic Exemplar +0, varies by path
Ordained Champion +1
Paragnostic Apostle +1
Paragnostic Initiate -1
Sanctified One -1, except Kord Blasters
Shadowspy -2
Shadowstriker -1
Squire of Legend +0, varies by path



I would be very tempted to proclaim a fist of the forest as +2. Pretty much any monk based PC will take at least 1 level.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: deuxhero December 18, 2009, 02:00:33 AM
[quibble] it's = it is.  you most likely meant "its"[/quibble]

Always was annoyed by that bit, but "more exceptions than uses of the rule" is about standard for english.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: snakeman830 December 18, 2009, 12:03:23 PM
I would be very tempted to proclaim a fist of the forest as +2. Pretty much any monk based PC will take at least 1 level.
It's statements like this that make me wonder just how many people actually read the PrC.  Sure, the abilities are nice, but they're countered by some very harsh penalties.  In an arena environment, it's amazing, but in an actual game, I'd rate it at +1 AT MOST,  More likely +0.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: bearsarebrown December 18, 2009, 03:05:04 PM
I would be very tempted to proclaim a fist of the forest as +2. Pretty much any monk based PC will take at least 1 level.
It's statements like this that make me wonder just how many people actually read the PrC.  Sure, the abilities are nice, but they're countered by some very harsh penalties.  In an arena environment, it's amazing, but in an actual game, I'd rate it at +1 AT MOST,  More likely +0.

Do tiers care though? Are the tiers designed for things like that?
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Saxony December 18, 2009, 05:21:46 PM
[quibble] it's = it is.  you most likely meant "its"[/quibble]

Always was annoyed by that bit, but "more exceptions than uses of the rule" is about standard for english.

Actually, the system is consistent in this case. She is => She's. He is => He's. Hers for female possessive. His for male possessive. It is => It's. Its for neutral possessive. Apostrophe when you want to contract the noun with "is" and no apostrophe when you want to use the possessive form. So, in this case, "its" was correct.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: deuxhero December 18, 2009, 06:37:23 PM
[quibble] it's = it is.  you most likely meant "its"[/quibble]

Always was annoyed by that bit, but "more exceptions than uses of the rule" is about standard for english.

Actually, the system is consistent in this case. She is => She's. He is => He's. Hers for female possessive. His for male possessive. It is => It's. Its for neutral possessive. Apostrophe when you want to contract the noun with "is" and no apostrophe when you want to use the possessive form. So, in this case, "its" was correct.

I was referring to how it is separate from possessive for proper nouns.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: sonofzeal December 19, 2009, 03:03:28 AM
I'm seconding PlzBreakMyCampaign's confusion about Void Disciple being up 2 tiers, while eating 5 caster levels....
Three reasons.


3) Void Suppression.  No-save-just-lose for 95% of the monsters out there.  Requires a melee touch attack.  Spectral Hand is (arguably, depending on your reading) your friend.


2) Moment of Clarity.  Grant an ally any feat for a few rounds.  Worth noting is that you specifically can't grant Ancestor feats, but Epic feats are, apparently, good to go.


1)  Sense Void.  Okay, so you can sense stuff anywhere except across planar boundaries, at the cost of a piddly Spellcraft check.  This raises a whole series of questions: can others sense you when you're like that?  Since you're leaving your body, can you use purely mental actions in that state?  Can you move around?  How long does it last?  Does it count as a divination effect?  What can block it?  RAW's lack of statement implies very dire answers...

- There's no listed method of detecting if someone else is using this.
- There's nothing preventing the use of mental actions in this state, and there's not even a mention of it requiring concentration.
- There's no method of moving (but see the previous)
- There's no limit on duration given.
- It's never referred to as a divination, nor as scrying, despite the obvious similarities.
- Given that, there's no RAW method I've heard of to block it, short of planar boundaries.  Illusions work, though.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Sinfire Titan December 19, 2009, 02:44:30 PM
Not to be a necro, but I feel Horizon walker should be at least +0, if only in a core only setting. Some of the abilities are a good trade compared to much of what you would get from another standard level of Ranger, Barbarian or Fighter.

Two of the major abilities can be duplicated by feats...

The two being? Dark vision, immunity to fatigue... ok the rest of the terrain mastery are crap. Then the planar mastries, DD/1d4 rounds (nicest thing melee gets in core), Tremor sense, immunitys to a few SoDs (Holy Word and it's kin) and a few items, energy resistance 20? Quite a bit better than Ranger or Fighter for more levels, possibly barbarian as well.

Shape Soulmeld/Open Chakra and Martial Study?
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: HCL December 20, 2009, 03:07:46 PM
Not to be a necro, but I feel Horizon walker should be at least +0, if only in a core only setting. Some of the abilities are a good trade compared to much of what you would get from another standard level of Ranger, Barbarian or Fighter.

Two of the major abilities can be duplicated by feats...

The two being? Dark vision, immunity to fatigue... ok the rest of the terrain mastery are crap. Then the planar mastries, DD/1d4 rounds (nicest thing melee gets in core), Tremor sense, immunitys to a few SoDs (Holy Word and it's kin) and a few items, energy resistance 20? Quite a bit better than Ranger or Fighter for more levels, possibly barbarian as well.

Shape Soulmeld/Open Chakra and Martial Study?

Not core
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: PlzBreakMyCampaign December 20, 2009, 03:35:00 PM
I'm seconding PlzBreakMyCampaign's confusion about Void Disciple being up 2 tiers, while eating 5 caster levels....
Three reasons.


3) Void Suppression.  No-save-just-lose for 95% of the monsters out there.  Requires a melee touch attack.  Spectral Hand is (arguably, depending on your reading) your friend.


2) Moment of Clarity.  Grant an ally any feat for a few rounds.  Worth noting is that you specifically can't grant Ancestor feats, but Epic feats are, apparently, good to go.


1)  Sense Void.  Okay, so you can sense stuff anywhere except across planar boundaries, at the cost of a piddly Spellcraft check.  This raises a whole series of questions: can others sense you when you're like that?  Since you're leaving your body, can you use purely mental actions in that state?  Can you move around?  How long does it last?  Does it count as a divination effect?  What can block it?  RAW's lack of statement implies very dire answers...

- There's no listed method of detecting if someone else is using this.
- There's nothing preventing the use of mental actions in this state, and there's not even a mention of it requiring concentration.
- There's no method of moving (but see the previous)
- There's no limit on duration given.
- It's never referred to as a divination, nor as scrying, despite the obvious similarities.
- Given that, there's no RAW method I've heard of to block it, short of planar boundaries.  Illusions work, though.
I didn't see your reply. Honestly I don't care about this PrC, so don't take it personally. I'm just telling you how I see it. Here we go:

3) By that level (7+12=19, 5+12=17 with extreme shenanigans) everyone else has 9th level spells and you don't. If you can succeed in a touch attack, you should already have killed you target, not wasted a standard action to make sure you will kill your target.

2) Didn't that loredrake thread establish that the non-casting epic feats kinda suck? You can't give epic casting to yourself but maybe to an ally. However if your DM actually allows epic casting you are just plain f*cked because either NPCs will use to pwnzor you, or they won't and you win DnD (which you already should in this case because you have 9th level casting.)

1) Its only 7/day at 13th level. It is not continuous or at will. So it can't be used unless you know someone is coming. But oh wait you lost the caster levels so you can't contact other plane to know when to use it. Looks like you will be taking shots in the dark, and probably failing every time. All someone has to do is momentarily plane shift contingency when you use your ability.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: sonofzeal December 20, 2009, 10:33:23 PM
1) Its only 7/day at 13th level. It is not continuous or at will. So it can't be used unless you know someone is coming. But oh wait you lost the caster levels so you can't contact other plane to know when to use it. Looks like you will be taking shots in the dark, and probably failing every time. All someone has to do is momentarily plane shift contingency when you use your ability.
There's no duration listed, and no end condition listed.  RAW being so vague, that would probably default to continuous (you're using it until you aren't using it any more, but honestly it could be almost anything).  And you've got the total wrong idea anyway.  You're thinking about an encounter win button.  If he gets into an encounter, he's a marginally weaker Cleric/Wizard/whatever with a few odd tricks that might be helpful.  I'm talking about a campaign win button.  A generously-interpreted Void Disciple is the unparalleled master of Scry-and-Die.  Unparalleled, because the classic defense against it is to resist the Scrying in the first place, by any of the many methods of defeating divinations... none of which work against the Void Disciple.  And he can start doing it before Scry normally becomes available.  

The Void Disciple may not be as impressive as a pure Wizard in a fight, but he's still mostly a full caster, and the potential power of Sense Void is honestly kind of terrifying.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: PlzBreakMyCampaign December 21, 2009, 12:16:08 AM
Hmm I don't do scry & die campaigns. So I don't know about that. Perhaps I am right on the other 2 points, but about the duration: why give more uses each per 2 class levels if it works continuously?
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: juton December 21, 2009, 12:50:52 AM
I've used Scry-and-Die once and only once. It was late and we wanted to finish the campaign before dawn. In every other situation I have a lot of trouble seeing a DM letting Scry-and-Die go off, regardless of RAW, at least for the campaign boss. Now I haven't played with every DM ever, so my evidence is anecdotal only but a tactic that gets banned (or books thrown at you) isn't a good tactic.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: sonofzeal December 21, 2009, 01:47:49 AM
Hmm I don't do scry & die campaigns. So I don't know about that. Perhaps I am right on the other 2 points, but about the duration: why give more uses each per 2 class levels if it works continuously?
The problem is how poorly-worded the whole thing is.  The intent is an alternate Scry mechanic.  You're supposed to do it, watch for a bit, then come back to your body.  That's why there's additional uses per day.  However, Scry spells out that you can only keep watching for 1 min/level, and doesn't have that annoying flavour text about actually going there, which causes all sorts of problems.  Since you're suppose to go, see, and come back, it obviously lasts some period of time (an "instantaneous" peek would be rather odd).  Since it doesn't say when it ends, apparently it doesn't unless you choose it to.  You have mobility issues in that state, so a strict reading might make it so you can go and see as long as you like but can't move around without going back to your body and using it again... but a method of moving as a mental action could get around this.

The other thing is that it's a fundamentally more dangerous version, because distance is much more powerful than familiarity, especially with skillcheck DCs that scale so slowly.  A Scryer must choose a creature, who gets a Will save, potentially with a pretty hefty Will save bonus.  You also need some sort of connection to the creature, which is a substantial limit on the spell as well.  You also can't scry anywhere that doesn't currently have people.

Sense Void on the other hand lets you go anywhere, regardless of a connection, will save, or abjurations.  That's huge.  You can go places you've never been, never even heard of, and now you know them for the purposes of scrying or teleporting.  You can tell what's behind a locked door or in an enemy war-room far more reliably than by scrying.

I've used Scry-and-Die once and only once. It was late and we wanted to finish the campaign before dawn. In every other situation I have a lot of trouble seeing a DM letting Scry-and-Die go off, regardless of RAW, at least for the campaign boss. Now I haven't played with every DM ever, so my evidence is anecdotal only but a tactic that gets banned (or books thrown at you) isn't a good tactic.
The only campaign I've been in where one was used, the PCs had to raid this Dwarven fortress.  There was only one enterance with ridiculous defenses, and the PCs had a hard time of it for a while.  Then the Void Disciple SenseVoid'd into the centre of the facility, used his newfound familiarity to teleport them all right into the command room, and what was supposed to be a marathon session was over with trivial ease.  Part of that was the DM's fault (he didn't expect them to have any way to teleport in), but it goes to show that, yes, it really does happen in actual games.



Anyway, this whole thing is predicated on my own rather fuzzy understanding of what the ability does.  If someone can give a clearer RAW picture of how it's not actually broken, that doesn't involve houserules (logical though they may be), I'd love it.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: The_Mad_Linguist December 21, 2009, 04:45:45 AM
The lack of extraplanar sight is pretty hindering, though.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: deuxhero December 22, 2009, 06:28:22 PM
Where does Survivor (commoner entry) rank? It's at least 1 up (hard to get worse) for the levels it effects (it's able to do one thing, not sure on how well).
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: sonofzeal December 23, 2009, 02:18:39 AM
The lack of extraplanar sight is pretty hindering, though.
You're still a spellcaster who can probably still cast Scry if you need too.  I don't think planar boundaries are a big deal in 95% of the games I've played, and it's usually possible to travel to the plane in question and then use it.  It's not as useful for TO epic play, what with Genesis shenanigans, but I'm not going to hold that against the class.

Where does Survivor (commoner entry) rank? It's at least 1 up (hard to get worse) for the levels it effects (it's able to do one thing, not sure on how well).
It doesn't even do that well.  With d6 HD, no AC bonus, and no armour proficiency?  Yeah, I wouldn't expect you to live long in most games.  Down 1, possibly Down 2.  It's only superior to Commoner levels in that everything is superior to commoner levels, and even there it loses on BAB.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: deuxhero December 24, 2009, 12:16:01 AM
so +1 or +0 for commoner and -2 for everyone else?
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: sonofzeal December 24, 2009, 01:57:50 AM
so +1 or +0 for commoner and -2 for everyone else?
Possibly +1 for Commoner, but really the class seems intended for level 5 pure-classed characters of any class, who want a little extra something.  Literally any level 5 character who hasn't multiclassed can access it, from Rogues to Barbarians to Truenamers to Samurai to Wizards.  This makes it exceedingly hard to quantify the benefits.  Hmmm....

Uncanny Dodge is nice for high-dex characters who don't already get it, and who rely on AC to protect against melee attacks.

Evasion is nice for high-dex characters who don't already get it, period.

DR 5/- is nice for anyone who expects to take a goodly number of hits in melee.  (DR is generally overrated, but in a normal game at level 10 you're fighting beside the ubercharger, against things that generally have multiple weaker attacks on the order of 15-20 damage each, and DR 5/- is nice.)

All good saves is nice for everybody, period.

0 BAB is terrible for anything that relies on melee combat itself.

d6 HD is a significant vulnerability for anything that expect to make use of that DR 5/-.

2+int skill points is painful for skillmonkeys.




Analysis: it holds you back no matter what you're trying to do.  Most of the features are only a help for high-dex front line characters, but there aren't a whole lot of those who can afford the precipitous drop in BAB and hp.  High saves and Evasion make a 2 level dip reasonable for some characters who are having trouble with enemy mages, and the hp issue can be overcome by being undead, but that's going beyond the bounds of the rating system.  Factotums probably gain the most but also lose a lot; Dragonfire Adepts probably lose the least and do still get a lot out of it.  I wouldn't rate this highly for Commoners though, as just about anything else they could take would probably be better for them anyway. 

In general, being slightly harder to kill is not a good goal for this many levels spent.  D&D favours offence and aggression, and this class provides absolutely nothing in that direction, less than Truenamer.  The only real difference between a Commoner6 and a Commoner1/Survivor5 is that the latter takes slightly more effort to kill.  That's not really worthy of a +1, outside of isolated builds.  And the class doesn't appear to be aimed at Commoners anyway, it just happened to fall that way.  I wouldn't consider Commoner the logical entry, just a funny little quirk.


Result: I'd be tempted to drop the class in the "down two" wall of shame, possible with a note mentioning how easily Commoners get in.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: The_Mad_Linguist December 24, 2009, 03:23:05 AM
It's better in gestalt, but not by that much.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: sonofzeal December 24, 2009, 04:27:40 AM
It's better in gestalt, but not by that much.
A good point.  Given the ease of entry, it could be a useful stepping stone in gestalt.  The HD and BAB don't really matter any more if paired with something decent, and the individual abilities offered are potentially worth the level.  Evasion in particular is a nice one to pick up if you can.  Ref Half is generally a weak thing for players to use, but a classic for monsters.  I'd definitely consider it for any high-Dex gestalt character, if I didn't have anything to do on the passive side at the time.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Empirate December 31, 2009, 02:04:56 PM
Actually, Survivor could be useful in Epic: You don't lose much (except for skillpoints and HP), but gain a lot of useful defensive class features to round off your character's survivability. Granted, the saying "the best defense is a good offense" is probably even more true in Epic, and DR 5/- isn't going to get you very far. But Uncanny Dodge and Evasion, as well as all good saves, are not bad. Might be as good as a +/-0 for non-casters.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: sonofzeal January 01, 2010, 09:53:17 AM
Actually, Survivor could be useful in Epic: You don't lose much (except for skillpoints and HP), but gain a lot of useful defensive class features to round off your character's survivability. Granted, the saying "the best defense is a good offense" is probably even more true in Epic, and DR 5/- isn't going to get you very far. But Uncanny Dodge and Evasion, as well as all good saves, are not bad. Might be as good as a +/-0 for non-casters.
Saves don't matter in Epic, I believe.  Everyone gets the same progression.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: bearsarebrown January 01, 2010, 10:03:50 AM
Actually, Survivor could be useful in Epic: You don't lose much (except for skillpoints and HP), but gain a lot of useful defensive class features to round off your character's survivability. Granted, the saying "the best defense is a good offense" is probably even more true in Epic, and DR 5/- isn't going to get you very far. But Uncanny Dodge and Evasion, as well as all good saves, are not bad. Might be as good as a +/-0 for non-casters.
Saves don't matter in Epic, I believe.  Everyone gets the same progression.

Correct. and BAB.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Empirate January 01, 2010, 11:39:18 AM
I never really played Epic, and only did a quick once-over of the basic rules years ago. So what do the Epic-savvy folks think? Is Survivor viable or not?
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: HCL January 02, 2010, 01:18:34 AM
How about the prestige ranger/bard/paladin variants from unearthed arcana?

I think that prestige paladin is definitely +1 tier as a 1-2 level dip for a cleric. If you take all of it it might be +0. You just invest a few skill ranks and Mounted Combat (which is not a bad fighting style if you use a lance and continue to pick up the Spirited Charge chain). You get all the pally spells on your list, full bab, pally class features at double progression (most importantly cha to saves and special mount at level 2), martial weapon and heavy armor proficiencies and a d10 hit die. And it stacks for the purposes of turning. 1/2 spellcasting progression (though most important level is 1, and that level advances it). If you drop out at level 2 all you really have lost is a feat some skills and 1 caster level and have gained a lot.

Prestige bard is +1 for a warmage entry, probably -2 if it is a sorc/wiz entry. You get the bard spell list at level 1 and then you can use bardic music, possibly picking up Extra music and the feat that lets you use the music to power DMM. Warmage knows everything on its list so it is more spellcasting oriented than music oriented. You have to burn a feat on Apprentice Performer and a lot of skill points to get in though.

Prestige Ranger is a -1 tier for a druid entry. You have to invest 3 bad feats to get in, you get screwed into a bad fighting style, and you have poor spellcasting progression and no wildshape progression. The main attraction here is the ranger spell list, but if you want that just play an archivist.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: juton January 02, 2010, 04:27:18 AM
RE: Prestige Paladin/Bard/Ranger

I think your right HCL, prestige Paly is probably a +1 as a dip, especially if you go all out and pick up battle blessing. It gets out right broken if you can combine it with Sword of the Arcane Order, but I don't think that works by RAW and it sounds like something that would get a DMG thrown at you for.

Prestige Bard has two other uses besides Warmage entry. I've seen it dipped to qualify for sublime chord or fochlucan lyricist builds, which if done right breaks you even. The other is for gishes, it allows casting in light armour, again this is a +0 because at most you take two levels and gishes are giving up power anyways.

Prestige Ranger sucks, easily a -2 if a druid is going into it. You can get in with Spirit Shaman, or as a Cleric with the animal domain, but why would you? Unless by serendipity you have Endurance, Track and either PBS or TWF it would be easier to just cherry pick the Ranger spells you want using the Extra Spell feat.

One important * that a lot of people miss is you are supposed to only use these prestige classes if the corresponding base class is made unavailable. That may disqualify them from some games.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Sinfire Titan January 02, 2010, 04:46:08 PM
RE: Prestige Paladin/Bard/Ranger

I think your right HCL, prestige Paly is probably a +1 as a dip, especially if you go all out and pick up battle blessing. It gets out right broken if you can combine it with Sword of the Arcane Order, but I don't think that works by RAW and it sounds like something that would get a DMG thrown at you for.

Prestige Bard has two other uses besides Warmage entry. I've seen it dipped to qualify for sublime chord or fochlucan lyricist builds, which if done right breaks you even. The other is for gishes, it allows casting in light armour, again this is a +0 because at most you take two levels and gishes are giving up power anyways.

Prestige Ranger sucks, easily a -2 if a druid is going into it. You can get in with Spirit Shaman, or as a Cleric with the animal domain, but why would you? Unless by serendipity you have Endurance, Track and either PBS or TWF it would be easier to just cherry pick the Ranger spells you want using the Extra Spell feat.

One important * that a lot of people miss is you are supposed to only use these prestige classes if the corresponding base class is made unavailable. That may disqualify them from some games.

PrC Ranger is good if you are a Swift Hunter. You end up with better spell selection using Cloistered Cleric. Scout 4/CC 1/PrC Ranger 15. But it isn't a casting-focused build.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Hand_of_Vecna January 02, 2010, 04:55:11 PM
Shouldn't Prestige Paladin get a rating as a fighter prestige class with a logical entry of Fighter 4/ Cleric 1 or Fighter 3/ Cleric 2? I know this is kinda stacking the deck cause if cleric was a 19 level prestige class you could enter at lvl 2 it would be a +4 prestige class but, the cleric heavy entries can't reach PP 15 at level 20 so even though it's a more powerful build cleric 8 isn't the logical entry if you're in for the long haul. I'll be counting cleric 1 as if it were the first level of the prestige class.

Prestige Paladin +1

Logical Entry: Fighter 4/Cleric 1

you lose: 8 fighter feats, 1 hp, 1 BAB

gain: 2 domains( potentially 2 feat equivilents), 5th lvl casting from the cleric a paladin lists, detect  evil at will, turn undead, divine grace, lay on hands, speacial mount (as core paladin 2 levels below your ecl), aura of courage, divine health, remove disease 3/day, smite evil 4/day.

: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: HCL January 02, 2010, 07:44:38 PM
Shouldn't Prestige Paladin get a rating as a fighter prestige class with a logical entry of Fighter 4/ Cleric 1 or Fighter 3/ Cleric 2? I know this is kinda stacking the deck cause if cleric was a 19 level prestige class you could enter at lvl 2 it would be a +4 prestige class but, the cleric heavy entries can't reach PP 15 at level 20 so even though it's a more powerful build cleric 8 isn't the logical entry if you're in for the long haul. I'll be counting cleric 1 as if it were the first level of the prestige class.

Prestige Paladin +1

Logical Entry: Fighter 4/Cleric 1

you lose: 8 fighter feats, 1 hp, 1 BAB

gain: 2 domains( potentially 2 feat equivilents), 5th lvl casting from the cleric a paladin lists, detect  evil at will, turn undead, divine grace, lay on hands, speacial mount (as core paladin 2 levels below your ecl), aura of courage, divine health, remove disease 3/day, smite evil 4/day.



Unnecessary fighter levels IMO. Straight cleric qualifies at 6th level, cloistered cleric has to wait until 8th
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: JaronK January 02, 2010, 10:20:34 PM
Cloistered Cleric actually qualifies at 7 (and thus can take the PrC at 8) if it uses DMM to keep Divine Power up.  I used that method in a recent game.  Regular Cleric does qualify at 6 and get in at 7.  And PrC Paladin is a great Cleric PrC, but I wouldn't want it on a Fighter entry.  A two level dip loses just one caster level and puts a bunch of new spells on your spell list, plus you get a mount (which with Holy Mount actually is better than a regular Paladin mount).  It's also of course an important part of many Supermount builds, though in that case the casting is less important.  I still wouldn't use it with Fighter though.

JaronK
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: KellKheraptis January 02, 2010, 10:31:29 PM
1 level dip of PrC Pally is at least +2 for most of my builds, and actually, it's like +487 as a one level dip for a Cheater of Mystra, as they then get the whole Sor/Wiz list in addition to being barny bad ass inside an AMF.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: bearsarebrown January 02, 2010, 11:26:59 PM
I agree that PrC Pally is +2 if you read Dragon Magic to allow SotAO and/or Battle Blessing.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: The_Mad_Linguist January 02, 2010, 11:32:10 PM
Don't think that actually works for SotAO, since, IIRC, it isn't an "Initiate Feat"
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: wackodraco January 04, 2010, 10:26:18 PM
Complete Champion:
Fist of the Forest: [spoiler]Nothing too new or interesting; primal living is a great setback.
Neither up nor down a tier, maybe up one in the right circumstances. About the only thing this has over the similar monk is a faster unarmed progression, Full BAB, and d10 hd. It loses will save. If the AC bonus stacks with that of say, the monk, it's cool, but still not a significant bump in power[/spoiler]
Forest Reeve: [spoiler]In a low magic setting, earth's defender is cool. Otherwise, not really. If you have any sort of magical weaponry, it's next to useless- a +3 weapon at level 10? Not too impressive.
Fast movement is nifty but not too big.
Nature's Rejuvenation is cool in flavor, but it isn't that great. The rest of the abilities, save whispers of the forest, are kinda ehhhh. Whispers of the forest is useful, but 1/day is kinda lame.
The chasis is not that great, either- it gains little compared to the ranger.
It's probably +0, at best. It doesn't make your life any worse, but it doesn't do anything too cool or interesting. Does not progress ranger/druid casting.[/spoiler]
Holt Warden: [spoiler]Full casting, so at least somewhat useful. Seems to be a transformative class- probably good with cleric entry. Plant domain is useful but not astounding. Earth's Communion is great for out of combat healing at the level it comes (as early as lvl. 8!) but doesn't really change the game too much.
Whispers of the Forest is cool, if only for the insight ability.
Web of Life is AWESOME. In short.
So, I'd say up 1 tier in general. With cleric entry, up as much as 2 tiers.[/spoiler]
Mythic Exemplar: [spoiler]Class is very modular, so could be useful. Can be as much as 8/10 casting with Imdastri or Ktolemange as patron. Otherwise is 5/10, which is crap unless you don't care about casting anyway (full BAB class) but then you're taking a hit to BAB with the class's 3/4 BAB.
Seems like best path is probably Imdastri, for the capstone- even then, at MOST MOST MOST +1 tier. Luck, Protection and Strength are great domains, but probably not worth 2 levels of casting. You could do better, but you could do a lot worse. For a cleric entry, which seems the most logical, you're gaining the one thing you don't have- class abilities.
Would be more solidly up one tier if it gave Full BAB on some of the paths.[/spoiler]
Ordained Champion:
[spoiler]Well spoken of for gish clerics, and for good reason. Bonus domain, Combat Feats, and Continued advancement all make Ordained Champion mesh well with a cleric entry. Modified Spontaneous Casting is bump in power- spontaneous curing is kinda lame. Harming is a mixed bag.
Diehard is cool but taking endurance sucks, so getting it for free is cool but not incredible.
Smite is useful because it's not limited by alignment. The charisma synergy is kinda crap cause of MAD, but still useful.
Channel Spell is AWESOME. Like, hands down AMAZING. I cannot praise this ability enough.
Divine Bulwark is nice because DR is useful in combat no matter what and you have swift actions all the time.
Fist of the Gods is nice, once again, swift action economy plus combat usefulness.
Rapid Spontaneous Casting. HERE IT IS. This is great. Now, instead of having to Persistify Divine Power, you can instead pop one off as a Swift action in the first round of combat. This is an AMAZING ability. The war domain is useful in general, and this pumps its usefulness.
Holy Warrior is interesting, but not so useful. It is not bad, and certainly has uses, but is mostly eclipsed by Intuitave Strike. This is useful, however, in that it applies to all weapons. Useful if your Wis is higher, which it almost certainly is. In fact, With four turning uses (you don't need them so much for persistent effects with the Rapid Spontaneous) you can do it for the standard 4 encounters/day.
War Caster is Gravy. +2 CL is nice but not game changing.
For a Gish cleric, which the class deliberately caters to, the Ordained is AMAZING. It is easily up one tier, and probably up two- for a cleric. If you enter as a paladin, it's still useful, but not as much. Archivists will LOVe it, as well. The Chasis is good, with full BAB, d8, and the two good saves being the important ones. The only thing it doesn't really have is skill points, but a Cloistered Cleric entry fixes that.[/spoiler]
Paragnostic Apostle
[spoiler]Lore is a Bardic Knowledge Clone, and is useful, but mostly a roleplay device. Holy Texts is nice for cleric entry, but would be much better if it granted Turning if you didn't already have it. Knowledge is Power is the cornerstone of the class; depending on the ones you select, you could be great or awful. None of them are particularly useful or gamebreaking, but they are neat perks. Mind over Matter is great for any wizard; there's a plethora of summoning abilities that would be nice for a Malconvoker.
In general, up .5 tier. Maybe up one, maybe neither up nor down.
[/spoiler]
Paragnostic Intitate:
[spoiler]The combat focused counterpart of the Paragnostic Apostle. Their abilities are focused on assiting casters. On initial glance, the Chasis is pretty impressive- full BAB, two good saves (F and R), 6+ skills per level with a decent list, and d8 hd.
The Tactical Combat abilities are the mainstay of the class; most of them are useful but not greatly so. Perhaps the most useful is Mystical Augmentation, if the domain is chosen carefully. They aren't that valuable, in the end.
The Assist Casting abilities are useful, but in many ways require difficult circumstances- Distraction will reasonably almost never be used, and is moderately valuable when it is. Target is useful if one of your casters loves damage spells to death, which is not really a great thing.
Penetration is a very minor bonus; the once per round limitation keeps it from being highly useful. Tactical Combat's usefulness is shaky, at best.
The Paragnostic Initiate is neither up nor down a tier.[/spoiler]
Sanctified One:
[spoiler]Another modular PRC; entry reqs indicate that it's intended for a character with good combat skills, yet it only has three quarter BAB. Three good saves, otoh, is pretty great, and d8 HD is average. The paths themselves aren't that great- they give you choice of abilities. The spellcasting progression seems misplaced, too. A cleric could enter, but would lose two levels of casting for some etcetera abilities; the class is said to not be intended for paladins and none of the dieties the class caters to are LG, so no go. The class is a slight improvement for a melee type, and a loss for a caster. So, with Cleric entry, -1, any other +0.
[/spoiler]
Shadowspy:
[spoiler]Little schizophrenic. Has skillmoney requirements with casting requirements; necessitates multiclassing.
Only advances casting 1/2 of time, three quarter BAB, d6 hd, but good reflex and wll saves. The abilities primarily emulate spells that you would've gotten anyway if you didn't multiclass for it; I'd say unless there's some optimized entry, you're looking at -1 to even -2. It simply doesn't fulfill any role to well, nor does it do anything too new or interesting.
[/spoiler]
Shadowstriker:
[spoiler]Bit better than shadowspy. Full BAB, two good saves, easy entry requirements. Badge of Office is a roleplay and poorly defined ability; it's 100% setting dependent. Luminous Weapon is nice, but increases MAD. D'oh! Smite Evil is useful but not too groundbreaking. Sun's Blessing can only be used 1/day unless you have another source of smite/turn/spontaneous casting, and unless you're specifically using it for the Daylight effect, it's pretty much suck. Surge of Piety is much the same, and only works on Undead. In the right campaigns this is useful, but in general, the shadowstriker is +0 tiers.[/spoiler]
Squire of Legend:[spoiler] Entry Requirements are very broad; you can enter from almost anything, really.
As fro the class abilities, the chassis is relatively poor- one good save, your choice, three quarter BAB (but it comes out to only one point lost as the class is 3 levels).
Squire's Burden is the mainstay of the class's power; as such, it is your primary combat ability. However, it's none too special; the various paths are relatively balanced against one another, but do not grant a lot of power. Reikhardt's least ability is actually quite useful- burning standard actions for someone else to take one seems like a bad joke, but a fighter, for instance, is less useful attacking or even full attacking than the wizard or cleric is casting another spell. However, as the abilities are usable once per day, they don't come up that often.
All in all, the squire of legend is useful but not incredibly so. I'd say it's between +0 and +1 in terms of power; it does little unique or extensively useful. The note about using leadership to acquire a Squire of Legend is largely developer wanking- it isn't any more overpowering than a warblade or other similar T3 class of the same level. A white raven warblade does the whole thing better, for example.[/spoiler]
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Optimator January 08, 2010, 12:42:56 AM
I concur.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: bearsarebrown January 08, 2010, 12:52:29 AM
Fist of the Forest- I'd call this +1, maybe +2. Con to AC is a great benefit and allows barbarian monks to get GREAT ACs. And faster Monk progression? Hell yeah! It's really really fast! Drop 3 levels and be what, a 16th level monk unarmed?

Ordained Champion- Cleric dip on a Paladin character is another great way to do it. +1.5 for me.  :P

: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: sonofzeal January 08, 2010, 01:28:35 AM
Agreed that Fist of the Forest is classic for the Con-to-AC, especially since it doesn't replace Dex and applies against touch attacks.  +1 at least, especially since it's more or less a Monk PrC.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: snakeman830 January 08, 2010, 12:47:54 PM
Agreed that Fist of the Forest is classic for the Con-to-AC, especially since it doesn't replace Dex and applies against touch attacks.  +1 at least, especially since it's more or less a Monk PrC.

Feral Living is a major setback in anything but arena games or WLD.  Definitely not a +2 PrC, and I'd set it ast a low +1 at best.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: HCL January 08, 2010, 01:52:53 PM
Its a +1 Prc on its own, when you combine it with Bear Warrior and a Dwarf Barbarian with hammer fist (You can't normally power attack with your fists, much less for 6 points of damage per attack/AC given up on a leap attack) they synergize really well
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: wackodraco January 08, 2010, 02:35:44 PM
Agreed that Fist of the Forest is classic for the Con-to-AC, especially since it doesn't replace Dex and applies against touch attacks.  +1 at least, especially since it's more or less a Monk PrC.

Feral Living is a major setback in anything but arena games or WLD.  Definitely not a +2 PrC, and I'd set it ast a low +1 at best.

Ditto.
ANd when we're talking tiers, the monk is T5 and the Swordsage is T3.
The Fist of the Forest does not in any way make a monk comparable to a swordsage. It's definitely not up two.
Maybe up one, in the right settings. But up two is comparing it to Incantatrix. It's a nice bonus and is helpful, but does not dramatically change character potential.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: bearsarebrown January 08, 2010, 03:07:28 PM
Keep in mind, it's only 3 levels! Does that not weight it differently on the tier scales? If Champion of Gwynharwyf gives +2 after spending 10 levels, FotF gives what it gives in only 3 levels! For a flat monk you progress 3 IUS steps, you gain Con to AC, you get a type of rage which helps decrease MAD, you get a Natural attack, Full BAB and two good saves.

Feral Living? Get an Acorn of Far Travel and you can sleep anywhere. And it's not hard to never have to eat. That's if the DM even enforces it. (But I know, we shouldn't do tiers based on that, but AoFT still stands)

If we straight compare Fist of the Forest to another +2 class, it doesn't match up. I agree. However, the fact that FotF is only three level long means that's it's a small investment! The class by itself is a dip! I say that FotF may not weigh as much as Incantatrix, but it's just as dense.

I'd say a solid +1 that can near a +2 on some characters.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: snakeman830 January 08, 2010, 03:37:03 PM
Keep in mind, it's only 3 levels! Does that not weight it differently on the tier scales? If Champion of Gwynharwyf gives +2 after spending 10 levels, FotF gives what it gives in only 3 levels! For a flat monk you progress 3 IUS steps, you gain Con to AC, you get a type of rage which helps decrease MAD, you get a Natural attack, Full BAB and two good saves.

Feral Living? Get an Acorn of Far Travel and you can sleep anywhere. And it's not hard to never have to eat. That's if the DM even enforces it. (But I know, we shouldn't do tiers based on that, but AoFT still stands)

If we straight compare Fist of the Forest to another +2 class, it doesn't match up. I agree. However, the fact that FotF is only three level long means that's it's a small investment! The class by itself is a dip! I say that FotF may not weigh as much as Incantatrix, but it's just as dense.

I'd say a solid +1 that can near a +2 on some characters.
Not quite.  While Acorn of Far Travel treats you as always in a natural setting, it does not remove the fact you are in a civilized area.  Feral Living doesn't penalize you  for not being in a natural setting, it penalizes you for doing things that normal people do (i.e., sleep in inns, eating prepared food, etc.)  Acorn of Far Travel does zilch to help in that respect.

Low +1 at the very best.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: bearsarebrown January 08, 2010, 03:41:19 PM
Keep in mind, it's only 3 levels! Does that not weight it differently on the tier scales? If Champion of Gwynharwyf gives +2 after spending 10 levels, FotF gives what it gives in only 3 levels! For a flat monk you progress 3 IUS steps, you gain Con to AC, you get a type of rage which helps decrease MAD, you get a Natural attack, Full BAB and two good saves.

Feral Living? Get an Acorn of Far Travel and you can sleep anywhere. And it's not hard to never have to eat. That's if the DM even enforces it. (But I know, we shouldn't do tiers based on that, but AoFT still stands)

If we straight compare Fist of the Forest to another +2 class, it doesn't match up. I agree. However, the fact that FotF is only three level long means that's it's a small investment! The class by itself is a dip! I say that FotF may not weigh as much as Incantatrix, but it's just as dense.

I'd say a solid +1 that can near a +2 on some characters.
Not quite.  While Acorn of Far Travel treats you as always in a natural setting, it does not remove the fact you are in a civilized area.  Feral Living doesn't penalize you  for not being in a natural setting, it penalizes you for doing things that normal people do (i.e., sleep in inns, eating prepared food, etc.)  Acorn of Far Travel does zilch to help in that respect.

Low +1 at the very best.

Is it Feral Living that knocks it down for you or the other class features?
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: snakeman830 January 08, 2010, 04:45:21 PM
Feral Living is a big drawback, but the other class features are not really that amazing.   The best class feature is Con to AC, but that's not anything to bump up two tiers for (not even 1).  Uncanny Dodge is the only other worthwhile class feature, but there are so many ways to get it without possibly losing it to make it even more underwhelming in a PrC.

Actually, in a review, I would put it at maybe a high +0.  Even without Feral Living, the PrC just doesn't add that much in ability.  With Feral Living, though, there is a major drawback involved.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Negative Zero January 08, 2010, 07:55:05 PM
Agreed that Fist of the Forest is classic for the Con-to-AC, especially since it doesn't replace Dex and applies against touch attacks.  +1 at least, especially since it's more or less a Monk PrC.

Feral Living is a major setback in anything but arena games or WLD.  Definitely not a +2 PrC, and I'd set it ast a low +1 at best.

Ditto.
ANd when we're talking tiers, the monk is T5 and the Swordsage is T3.
The Fist of the Forest does not in any way make a monk comparable to a swordsage. It's definitely not up two.
Maybe up one, in the right settings. But up two is comparing it to Incantatrix. It's a nice bonus and is helpful, but does not dramatically change character potential.

The PrCs aren't supposed to literally change you that number of tiers. A Planar Shepherd Druid is not tier -1, and a Bard Incantatrix is not the equal of a Wizard.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: wackodraco January 09, 2010, 12:25:23 AM
Agreed that Fist of the Forest is classic for the Con-to-AC, especially since it doesn't replace Dex and applies against touch attacks.  +1 at least, especially since it's more or less a Monk PrC.

Feral Living is a major setback in anything but arena games or WLD.  Definitely not a +2 PrC, and I'd set it ast a low +1 at best.

Ditto.
ANd when we're talking tiers, the monk is T5 and the Swordsage is T3.
The Fist of the Forest does not in any way make a monk comparable to a swordsage. It's definitely not up two.
Maybe up one, in the right settings. But up two is comparing it to Incantatrix. It's a nice bonus and is helpful, but does not dramatically change character potential.

The PrCs aren't supposed to literally change you that number of tiers. A Planar Shepherd Druid is not tier -1, and a Bard Incantatrix is not the equal of a Wizard.
Yes, they do. Quite literally. The more powerful prestige classes increase the scope of character potential to the point that the character's current tricks can be used in almost any situation, or in the cases of some, dramatically increase the power of them to the point that they have more options. The point here is that they significantly change the character. Extra points to a stat is not a change to a character. Metamagic Effect 2/day(Incantatrix), Planar Bubble 2/day (Planar Shepherd), ninth level casting (Ur-Priest), and fifth level casting ON TOP of continuation or improvement of existing abilities (Runescarred Berserker) DO dramatically change the way a character is played and what they are capable of. An extra few points to AC from a class that penalizes you for roleplaying choices is nothing of the sort.
If you are arguing such, you have a very poor grasp of what the various tiers mean and what a good example of each tier is. In my book, the fist of the forest is +1 tier on the best of days in the best of circumstances. Generally, while the Fist of the Forest certainly does improve the monk, that's not that hard to do. A pure swordsage (without any multiclassing, and by extension shittiness like Feral Living) will outgun and outman a monk/fist of the forest any day of the week. That's the difference between two tiers, and the kind of power that Fist of the Forest lacks.

Even worse is it's execution- it's interesting and somewhat handy in certain rare TO cases (who TO's a monk, anyway?) and is nearly worthless in PO. That is to say, if you're really optimizing for it, you're trying to reduce MAD, which is a big problem of a monk. Fist of the forest lets you dump Dex, so you can do Str/Con/Wis and be decent. You're either fragile entering it if you REALLY dumped dex to pump Con, or it does very little for you if you took a midrange approach and had decent Dex and Con. Either way, your character sucks.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Negative Zero January 09, 2010, 01:54:31 AM
Yes, they do. Quite literally.

Foreword by sonofzeal, who’s started this list:
...

To repeat: the ranking is not literal.
...

Just saying.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: wackodraco January 09, 2010, 02:17:12 AM
Yes, they do. Quite literally.

Foreword by sonofzeal, who’s started this list:
...

To repeat: the ranking is not literal.
...

Just saying.

That's confusing, counter intuitive, and not internally consistent. Regardless of the semantics of the ranking system, I stand by my same point- the Fist of the Forest is in that same bracket. In terms of any measure of power or usefulness, it does not drastically change the character.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: bearsarebrown January 09, 2010, 02:23:54 AM
I stand by my same point- the Fist of the Forest is in that same bracket. In terms of any measure of power or usefulness, it does not drastically change the character.

You think a Monk 20 and a Monk 17/FotF 3 aren't drastically different?

You get another attack, at least 10 more AC, an extra attack, +2 damage, +2 BAB, and uncanny dodge! You've convinced me that okay, maybe it isn't +2, but there is a solid +1 here!
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: wackodraco January 09, 2010, 05:03:34 AM
I stand by my same point- the Fist of the Forest is in that same bracket. In terms of any measure of power or usefulness, it does not drastically change the character.

You think a Monk 20 and a Monk 17/FotF 3 aren't drastically different?

You get another attack, at least 10 more AC, an extra attack, +2 damage, +2 BAB, and uncanny dodge! You've convinced me that okay, maybe it isn't +2, but there is a solid +1 here!
Feral Trance is 1/day.
10 AC is possible but unlikely unless someone is breaking your WBL or you have some amazing rolls and racial bonuses/penalties.
+2 Damage/Bab is a joke.
Uncanny Dodge barely brings a monk in line with someone wearing armor.
You once again ignore Primal Living, which is a BIG DEAL.
You've also lost in Will saves, which is often the Important One.
I've said before that in the best of days Fist of the Forest is +1, and you're right- but that in the absolute BEST case scenario.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Negative Zero January 09, 2010, 03:25:56 PM
I stand by my same point- the Fist of the Forest is in that same bracket. In terms of any measure of power or usefulness, it does not drastically change the character.

You think a Monk 20 and a Monk 17/FotF 3 aren't drastically different?

You get another attack, at least 10 more AC, an extra attack, +2 damage, +2 BAB, and uncanny dodge! You've convinced me that okay, maybe it isn't +2, but there is a solid +1 here!
Feral Trance is 1/day.
10 AC is possible but unlikely unless someone is breaking your WBL or you have some amazing rolls and racial bonuses/penalties.
+2 Damage/Bab is a joke.
Uncanny Dodge barely brings a monk in line with someone wearing armor.
You once again ignore Primal Living, which is a BIG DEAL.
You've also lost in Will saves, which is often the Important One.
I've said before that in the best of days Fist of the Forest is +1, and you're right- but that in the absolute BEST case scenario.

I may disagree with wackodraco in terms of the meaning of a tier, but I have to agree with him here. One extra attack (that you listed twice), some more AC (to get a +10 modifier, you have to have a +6 item, a +5 book, and one point of levelup bonus into Con, and that's assuming you started out with 18 Con, which is highly unlikely if you wanted to contribute to your party at all), damage, BAB, and uncanny dodge are nice, and they all make you better, but they don't really change much. You don't really have new options, and the options you do have aren't a whole lot better. Now, if wackodraco is correct, and these tiers are literal and on a one-to-one ratio, there's no way this is a plus one. It's like a Warrior taking levels in Fighter. Yes, it's definitely better, but it doesn't really change anything. I can't think of any problems or enemies that a Monk/FotF would be able to deal with that a pure Monk could not.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: bearsarebrown January 09, 2010, 03:31:53 PM
You get 2 AC from Feral Trance.

Hmm, well, I've pretty much said all I can say without repeating. I'd call it a +1 in normal circumstances and a +2 in the best of circumstances (template stacking and combining with Deepwarden for Conx2 to AC)
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Samb January 09, 2010, 03:39:19 PM
Wacko, we are using the definitions based on what sonofzeal defined.  All posts and theorieswere based on that not how much they change the base class. All of us wrote under that understanding. You are free to start your own thread on "literal" effects a PrC would have on the base class but here is not the place.

After 2 threads and almost all the books done, to try and try how we have been ranking PrC is a bit late, posting here implictly means you agree with the system. You can say "this PrC should higher/lower" but all is assumed to be under the rulings.  Please carefully read the opening post next.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: snakeman830 January 09, 2010, 03:46:29 PM
After reviewing Fist of the Forest once more, I'd say it's +1 under the absolute best of circumstances, +0 otherwise.  The class features just aren't that impressive, don't add any new capabilities to the character (although they do slightly improve existing capability), and also come with a major drawback.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: PlzBreakMyCampaign January 09, 2010, 04:54:12 PM
Hmm Yes the tiers aren't literal. Yes I argued against this during the PrC Tier formation and yes I have gone along with this more qualitative system (which does have some merits the literal way lacks).

On FotF: 2 things we are forgetting. 1) it works on just about any non-casting base class. Due to the seperate flurry progression I would say that monk is not the logical progression. Something like a barbarian would. The point is this class is flexible. I have even used it for scouts.

2) Its easy. The incantrix and artificer might have high benefits but they just aren't that simple. This thing is three levels of awesome that even a straight monk player can appreciate ( :p). It doesn't require much optimization to get a big bang for its buck.

That sounds like +1 to me. Put a "*low" next to it if u want, but its definately not +2 and its not +0 in most possible cases.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: snakeman830 January 09, 2010, 05:40:09 PM
Hmm Yes the tiers aren't literal. Yes I argued against this during the PrC Tier formation and yes I have gone along with this more qualitative system (which does have some merits the literal way lacks).

On FotF: 2 things we are forgetting. 1) it works on just about any non-casting base class. Due to the seperate flurry progression I would say that monk is not the logical progression. Something like a barbarian would. The point is this class is flexible. I have even used it for scouts.

2) Its easy. The incantrix and artificer might have high benefits but they just aren't that simple. This thing is three levels of awesome that even a straight monk player can appreciate ( :p). It doesn't require much optimization to get a big bang for its buck.

That sounds like +1 to me. Put a "*low" next to it if u want, but its definately not +2 and its not +0 in most possible cases.
It's flexible, but it really doesn't add much to any character.  The best use I see for it is a Totemist dip where I sould consider it to be +1.  Really, the features are underwhelming and have a major drawback attached that will come up in 95% of games.  Combined with the 3 feat prerequisites (none of which are that good of feats, Great Fortitude being the best) and it's painful.  Versatile in entry, but not that great of a PrC.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: HCL January 09, 2010, 05:51:44 PM
Alright, I don't think you are getting it. Its NOT a monk prc. Its a prc for Bear Warriors, Wildshape Rangers, Primevals, Totemists, etc. You can't normally make iteratives with natural weapons and you don't normally wear armor while shapeshifted. FotF gives you the abilitiy to make some iteratives with decent damage, then use your natural weapons as secondaries. And these damage increases are stacking with size category increases you are gaining from shapeshifting.  And if you are a dwarf (and you should be) you can power attack with your fists with Hammer Fist (you normally can't power attack with natural weapons because they are light). Then you get the con to AC (which should, again, be high because you are a dwarf and dwarves have high con)
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: snakeman830 January 09, 2010, 06:08:43 PM
If you can't power attack with natural weapons, then how do you explain the dozens of monsters that do just that?  Hammer Fist isn't necessary.

That said, the PrC still doesn't add much to any character.  The best feature is the Con to AC.  The unarmed strike is handy, but can be solved with 13k (which gives you yet another ability adding to AC when unarmored).  Uncanny Dodge is the second best ability, but is widely available (and Bear Warriors already have it via Barbarian).  Everything else is kinda meh. 

All of this is greatly temepered by the fact that if you sleep indoors or buy food 3/month, then you lose all class features for 30 days.  Guess what?  Chances are, you'll be doing both of those activities pretty often unless you're in an arena game or WLD.

Monk PrC or not, the features are really not that amazing and, more importanly, barely worth the prerequisites.  Even without Feral Living, I would put the PrC at a low +1.  With, it's hard to justify over +0.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: wackodraco January 09, 2010, 07:11:07 PM
Hmm Yes the tiers aren't literal. Yes I argued against this during the PrC Tier formation and yes I have gone along with this more qualitative system (which does have some merits the literal way lacks).

On FotF: 2 things we are forgetting. 1) it works on just about any non-casting base class. Due to the seperate flurry progression I would say that monk is not the logical progression. Something like a barbarian would. The point is this class is flexible. I have even used it for scouts.

2) Its easy. The incantrix and artificer might have high benefits but they just aren't that simple. This thing is three levels of awesome that even a straight monk player can appreciate ( :p). It doesn't require much optimization to get a big bang for its buck.

That sounds like +1 to me. Put a "*low" next to it if u want, but its definately not +2 and its not +0 in most possible cases.

Alright, I don't think you are getting it. Its NOT a monk prc. Its a prc for Bear Warriors, Wildshape Rangers, Primevals, Totemists, etc. You can't normally make iteratives with natural weapons and you don't normally wear armor while shapeshifted. FotF gives you the abilitiy to make some iteratives with decent damage, then use your natural weapons as secondaries. And these damage increases are stacking with size category increases you are gaining from shapeshifting.  And if you are a dwarf (and you should be) you can power attack with your fists with Hammer Fist (you normally can't power attack with natural weapons because they are light). Then you get the con to AC (which should, again, be high because you are a dwarf and dwarves have high con)
Second post of thread:
Even.  These PrCs are roughly on par with their entry classes overall, trading strengths in certain areas for strengths in others, or provides moderate gains for a moderate investment (ie required feats or unfavorable multiclassing).  Expect characters with these to fit naturally into a single-classed party.

This describes the Fist of the Forest based on everything that has been said so far. Unless you can give me very compelling evidence that the Fist of the Forest
Up One Tier.  These PrCs generally improve their entry classes substantially, without radically affecting game balance.  Expect characters with these to be powerful allies or dangerous enemies, without totally overshadowing their single-classed peers.
I remain totally unconvinced. Small mechanical bonuses are not a substantial improvement.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: HCL January 10, 2010, 02:10:21 AM
I see absolutely no reason to sleep indoors or buy food when you can make a survival check.

As far as I can see it is better than just taking barbarian levels, and I can't see why deepwarden would be a significantly stronger prc
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: lans January 11, 2010, 12:26:10 AM
How about we throw an elite array monk 7 with con having a positive modifier against an earth elemental, an elephant and a hill giant, one at a time, and throw  the same build monk that took 1 level of FotF.

Remember to go from Tier 6-5 to  Tier 4 you don't need new abilities, you just need to do your current abilities better. Joxar can do anything Hercules can, only not as good.

It gets an extra attack and 2-4 points of AC, and 3 or so points of damage and 3 hp, its about what separates the fighter and warrior on a 3 level scale. Down side of 2 points off of Will save and 6 skill points
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: bayar January 11, 2010, 09:35:48 AM
Plus, fighter gets bonus feats. The warrior does not get bonus feats.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: lans January 11, 2010, 11:28:44 AM
Plus, fighter gets bonus feats. The warrior does not get bonus feats.
I was pointing out what the differance amounted to. over 3 levels the difference is 2 feats, which is +1 to hit and +2 to damage, or an extra attack due to karmic strike, an improved attack mode. A fighter doesn't actually get a bonus to AC, damage or the like.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: PlzBreakMyCampaign January 11, 2010, 05:56:36 PM
Joxar can do anything Hercules can, only not as good.
Hehe I caught that. Also, I never thought about it that way... nor did anyone else (in the show) I think.

Hey wacko what your pointing out is known to me and doesn't address what I said. For non-monks FotF can substantially improve a build without lots of optimization. Also I find your avatar funny considering what lans wrote (king of thieves in the same show and all)
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: wackodraco January 12, 2010, 02:33:54 AM
Joxar can do anything Hercules can, only not as good.
Hehe I caught that. Also, I never thought about it that way... nor did anyone else (in the show) I think.

Hey wacko what your pointing out is known to me and doesn't address what I said. For non-monks FotF can substantially improve a build without lots of optimization. Also I find your avatar funny considering what lans wrote (king of thieves in the same show and all)
I have yet to see how the mentioned small bonuses are substantial.
The Fist of the Forest improves monks somewhat, but not substantially.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: bearsarebrown January 12, 2010, 02:37:03 AM
Joxar can do anything Hercules can, only not as good.
Hehe I caught that. Also, I never thought about it that way... nor did anyone else (in the show) I think.

Hey wacko what your pointing out is known to me and doesn't address what I said. For non-monks FotF can substantially improve a build without lots of optimization. Also I find your avatar funny considering what lans wrote (king of thieves in the same show and all)
I have yet to see how the mentioned small bonuses are substantial.
The Fist of the Forest improves monks somewhat, but not substantially.

They're right about putting it on a Bear Warrior. that makes a world of difference.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: snakeman830 January 12, 2010, 11:27:32 AM
Joxar can do anything Hercules can, only not as good.
Hehe I caught that. Also, I never thought about it that way... nor did anyone else (in the show) I think.

Hey wacko what your pointing out is known to me and doesn't address what I said. For non-monks FotF can substantially improve a build without lots of optimization. Also I find your avatar funny considering what lans wrote (king of thieves in the same show and all)
I have yet to see how the mentioned small bonuses are substantial.
The Fist of the Forest improves monks somewhat, but not substantially.

They're right about putting it on a Bear Warrior. that makes a world of difference.
True, but a Bear Warrior is a PrC.  The ratings aren't coming from how much they can benefit another PrC, but how much they benefit the base classes.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: bearsarebrown January 12, 2010, 02:06:52 PM
Then apply it to natural attack barbarians and totemists.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: snakeman830 January 12, 2010, 02:17:06 PM
Then apply it to natural attack barbarians and totemists.
And they still don't get enough of a boost for FotF to really be considered a +1 PrC.  Both classes only benefit from the first level ability (Barbarians already have Uncanny Dodge by the time they qualify) and the unarmed-combat style doesn't lend itself well to either class.  Barbarians are far better off with a 2-handed weapon.  Totemists can use it, but the unarmed strikes won't keep up to the natural weapons provided by Soulmelds and quickly become an afterthought.  It's nice to have a couple more attacks, but when you already have a dozen, who cares?  Besides, FotF doesn't add the iteritive capability: that's the prerequisite Improved Unarmed Strike.

Logical entry is Monk.  Logical =/= optimal.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: bearsarebrown January 12, 2010, 02:46:12 PM
But it ups the damage die significantly. Barbarian 17/FotF 3 is +0, I agree, but Barbarian X/Bear Warrior X/FotF 3 is +1. If that's out of the scope of the guide because it relies on the prestige class to be a +1, then so be it.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: bayar January 12, 2010, 05:47:08 PM
But it ups the damage die significantly. Barbarian 17/FotF 3 is +0, I agree, but Barbarian X/Bear Warrior X/FotF 3 is +1. If that's out of the scope of the guide because it relies on the prestige class to be a +1, then so be it.

Fixed.

Barbarian X Bear Warrior X is already +1.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: PlzBreakMyCampaign January 13, 2010, 06:57:12 AM
Joxar can do anything Hercules can, only not as good.
Hehe I caught that. Also, I never thought about it that way... nor did anyone else (in the show) I think.

Hey wacko what your pointing out is known to me and doesn't address what I said. For non-monks FotF can substantially improve a build without lots of optimization. Also I find your avatar funny considering what lans wrote (king of thieves in the same show and all)
I have yet to see how the mentioned small bonuses are substantial.
The Fist of the Forest improves monks somewhat, but not substantially.
Ug your not reading what I mentioned the time before this quote up here. This PrC isn't for monks.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: snakeman830 January 13, 2010, 01:39:21 PM
Ug your not reading what I mentioned the time before this quote up here. This PrC isn't for monks.
And you're not reading what we're saying.  It doesn't matter if it's a Monk or not that's using it.  It doesn't help ANYONE enough to be a +1 PrC.

That said, it was clearly designed to be a Monk PrC, and that is the logical entery.  Logical =/= optimal.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: wackodraco January 13, 2010, 03:14:19 PM
Ug your not reading what I mentioned the time before this quote up here. This PrC isn't for monks.
Read first post.
First post instructs to gauge based on LOGICAL entry unless there's an amazingly compelling reason not to.
The difference between +0.5 and +0 is not terribly compelling.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: HCL January 13, 2010, 05:03:31 PM
I started a +2 PrCs thread and I have done the ones that I am familiar with. Anyone want to help me out with some of the rest?

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6876.0
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: bearsarebrown January 13, 2010, 06:58:09 PM
I started a +2 PrCs thread and I have done the ones that I am familiar with. Anyone want to help me out with some of the rest?

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6876.0

I'm helping  :D
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: PlzBreakMyCampaign January 14, 2010, 06:34:33 AM
And you're not reading what we're saying.
Wrong. My posts have acknowledged yours. They simply disagreed. Do not confuse the two.

The compelling reason is the separate unarmed progression. And the fact that actually tankish classes use that con->AC much better. If that's not cool enough it just means I get to show DMs, who don't believe my AC, that its only a +0 PrC.

PBMC out
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: snakeman830 January 14, 2010, 11:18:53 AM
And you're not reading what we're saying.
Wrong. My posts have acknowledged yours. They simply disagreed. Do not confuse the two.

The compelling reason is the seperate flurry progression. And the fact that actually tankish classes use that con->AC much better. If thats not cool enough it just means I get to show DMs, who don't believe my AC, that its only a +0 PrC.

PBMC out
You keep citing this flurry progression.  The PrC doesn't have one.  At all.  Where are you getting this idea from?  If it's from the Feral Trance, then I'm sorry, but that's not Flurry, especially since the extra attack can only be gotten during those trances which can be used a maximum of 2/day
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: HCL January 14, 2010, 12:16:05 PM
How about the Skypledged? For a Druid entry I think its only a +0 since it gives cleric spell access, full casting, and some class features, but it does not continue animal companion and wildshape progression.

For a Cleric it is at least a +1, you get access to druid spells, can cast spells semi spontaneously, and you get some nice class features. All you lose compared to taking Cloistered Cleric levels is 2 skill points per level and turn undead progression (hehe). There is also a restrictive code, but you don't really lose that much other than non-air elemental summoning and Wall of Stone.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: wackodraco January 17, 2010, 05:06:19 AM
How about the Skypledged? For a Druid entry I think its only a +0 since it gives cleric spell access, full casting, and some class features, but it does not continue animal companion and wildshape progression.

For a Cleric it is at least a +1, you get access to druid spells, can cast spells semi spontaneously, and you get some nice class features. All you lose compared to taking Cloistered Cleric levels is 2 skill points per level and turn undead progression (hehe). There is also a restrictive code, but you don't really lose that much other than non-air elemental summoning and Wall of Stone.

It's comprable to Mage of the Arcane Order for the Divine Spellpool alone, it may even significantly improve the class (breaks prepared casting for you, full casting).
The question, as I see it, comes down how restrictive the Vow to abstain from Fire, Earth, or Water spells is.
I bet such could be cheesed with Energy Sub. or some similar.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Malsheem February 08, 2010, 12:19:43 AM
Can someone explane me why Emissaries of Barachiel is a +2? I really dont get it, i'm reading the class over and over and can't find a reason...
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: bearsarebrown February 08, 2010, 12:37:22 AM
Can someone explane me why Emissaries of Barachiel is a +2? I really dont get it, i'm reading the class over and over and can't find a reason...

Dire Bear form 24/7 is pretty sweet. But I agree it's only a strong +1.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Negative Zero February 08, 2010, 12:40:41 AM
Can someone explane me why Emissaries of Barachiel is a +2? I really dont get it, i'm reading the class over and over and can't find a reason...

Dire Bear form 24/7 is pretty sweet. But I agree it's only a strong +1.

Dire Bear form is from the Sentinel of Bharrai, not Emissary of Barachiel.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: bearsarebrown February 08, 2010, 12:47:46 AM
Oh I got my BoED classes mixed up.

I can answer the question then:

Permanent alignment shifting powers with a DC set my a Diplomacy check.  It's like a Diplomancer with an even stronger weapon.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: sonofzeal February 08, 2010, 07:26:51 AM
Oh I got my BoED classes mixed up.

I can answer the question then:

Permanent alignment shifting powers with a DC set my a Diplomacy check.  It's like a Diplomancer with an even stronger weapon.
Nailed it in one.  Well, two, sorta.

Yeah, I was the one that tossed out that rating in the first place, and it was mostly in the "omgwtfbbq"ness of having DC set by Diplomacy, possibly the #2 most easily pumpable skill (short only of jumplomancy).  And "Conversion" is a campaign-ender.  By JaronK's system, they occupy an odd space; they're weak in a lot of ways and can be a total dead weight in need of serious DM handholding, but they can also go totally off the rails with terrifying ease.  Never, ever let an Emissary have a large audience.  Given a soapbox and a month game-time, he can turn an entire city Lawful Stupid.

Even without that, "Calling" is pretty much an auto-stun against all non-undead evil creatures in a 30' radius.  Technically it has a save, but any half-decent effort is getting you a DC of 30+1d20, even at low levels.

Mostly it's about the "Conversion" though.  Srs hax.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Malsheem February 08, 2010, 10:32:36 PM
Oh now i understand...
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Junkyarddog March 14, 2010, 10:09:06 PM
Can somebody explain why arcane archer is -2.  It seems to me that while its not great, it doesn't deserve that much hate.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: snakeman830 March 14, 2010, 10:51:01 PM
Can somebody explain why arcane archer is -2.  It seems to me that while its not great, it doesn't deserve that much hate.
It takes a lot of junk feats to enter, requires, but doesn't advance casting, the only scaling class feature is replicated by a spell completely, and the other abilities (save Imbue Arrow) are all 1/day.  Arrow of Death is a Fort save with a low save DC, so it will almost assuredly be resisted.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: KellKheraptis March 15, 2010, 12:09:34 AM
3.5 Arcane Archer is 2 levels long for just about every build, other than carnivore's or DM's duskblade.  Pinpoint long range AMF is just sexy :)
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Junkyarddog March 15, 2010, 06:55:44 PM
Right, i forgot that splashes don't count.  As for requiring caster, 1 lvl of duskblade doesn't really hurt you that much.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: deuxhero March 18, 2010, 02:49:11 AM
Loremaster is +1 for

"insanely easy to enter (1 blown feat you get back+feats you would take anyways, 2 you get as bonus feats), full spellcasting progression, extra skills and skill points including UMD as a class skill, you can ID for free as a standard action (while plentiful in splat, this on is core) and the capstone mirrors a spell, while killing the two factors (cost and time) and make the spell bad. Plus RAW you can learn secret languages without meeting the requirements (Every other source of learning a language makes a specific point you can't learn druidic, the bonus language feature lacks it) "

Right? Did I miss anything
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Hijax March 18, 2010, 10:16:04 AM
possible error:
ultimate magus is +0 "w/o early entry"
but it is nowhere stated what it is with early entry.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Hallack March 18, 2010, 11:54:52 AM
Are we avoiding Web Enhancements?  Curious as I noticed Swiftblade is not on the list.  If qualifies for the list I would probably rate it at a +1. 
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Havok4 March 18, 2010, 12:02:08 PM
Which makes it pretty unique for a class that loses 4 caster levels.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: tinydwarfman April 03, 2010, 04:37:17 PM
How do rate the PrC's from Fiendish Codex II? Hellfire Warlock is probably a strong +1 in my opinion, but what about hellreaver?
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Havok4 April 03, 2010, 04:40:31 PM
but what about hellreaver?
+0 probably as you get a few nice things that are very situational with rather meh prerequisites. Assuming of course you enter as a non spellcasting sneaky type like a rogue.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: tinydwarfman April 03, 2010, 04:56:10 PM
but what about hellreaver?
+0 probably as you get a few nice things that are very situational with rather meh prerequisites. Assuming of course you enter as a non spellcasting sneaky type like a rogue.

What about entering via Crusader or the like? Why would you enter via rogue?

EDIT: I think you mean Hellbreaker, the one which piggybacks on teleport spells and steals SLAs. Hellreaver is kind of like a paladin that hates demons/devils and has no casting.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Havok4 April 03, 2010, 09:41:09 PM
but what about hellreaver?
+0 probably as you get a few nice things that are very situational with rather meh prerequisites. Assuming of course you enter as a non spellcasting sneaky type like a rogue.

What about entering via Crusader or the like? Why would you enter via rogue?

EDIT: I think you mean Hellbreaker, the one which piggybacks on teleport spells and steals SLAs. Hellreaver is kind of like a paladin that hates demons/devils and has no casting.
You are correct there. All the prestige classes from that book sound the same.  Hellreaver looks like it would be significantly better than a paladin at doing what a paladin does, but it still would be a step down from crusader, so with a paladin entry it is probably +1 to +0 as it makes you better at slaying evil creatures with no real big loses as a paladin but it is still not overly good. As any other form of entry it is a -1 to +0.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Surreal April 27, 2010, 02:46:32 AM
Faiths of Eberron
Sovereign Speaker: +0 or low +1, gain 9 domains and all the abilities (but awkward selection method), a few bonus slots, but you lose two caster levels
Escalation Mage: +1, trivial entrance, full casting, nifty abilities
Argent Fist: +1, steep prereqs although negligible since the class is designed almost exclusively for paladin/monks, solid class abilities although you're still not competing with someone on a higher tier
Thief of Life: -1, possibly the only PrC printed outside of MoI that has incarnum support, class abilities are incredibly niche, possible entry by 3rd level with a glimmerskin halfling rogue/spellthief
Planar Shepherd: +2, pfffffft

Magic of Eberron
Alchemist Savant: a low +1, full casting or infusions, you don't lose anything and gain some nice brewing abilities, solid +1 at the low-mid levels and providing potion buffs for your party
Deadgrim: +0, 4/5 divine casting advancement, so-so class abilities, gain immunity to sleep/death/energy drain
Dragon Prophet: +0, 9/10 arcane or infusion, mishmash of average abilities centered around the prophesy feats of MoE
Elemental Scion of Zilargo: +0, has some abilities tied to casting yet doesn't advance any casting, summon elemental a few times per day, would be -1 except calling an elder elemental a few times per day is reasonably strong
Impure Prince: -1 or +2 depending how you abuse the symbionts, advance 4/6 casting, see LoP dirty trick #4 - http://69.8.198.229/showthread.php?t=563976
Quori Mindhunter: +1, 9/10 manifesting, gain some PP and powers known, a few average abilities
Renegade Mastermaker: -1, 8/10 casting, lackluster abilities, +1 if you abuse the 7th level ability with cheap slotless items
Vigilant Sentinel: +0, rogue class, average abilities, potential shadowpouncer

Secrets of Sarlona
Fist of Dal Quor: +0, meant for soulknife entry? gain stunning ability and sudden strike
Haztaratain: -1, requires minor casting/manifesting to enter, but doesn't advance either, advances monk abilities
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Suzerain April 27, 2010, 03:03:02 AM
I will update this week. I swear.

Thanks Surreal, I'll look it over.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Rage Incarnate April 28, 2010, 01:51:14 AM
Boobala boobala boobala.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Surreal April 28, 2010, 04:57:38 AM
Dragonmarked - most of these classes were odd to rate since they don't really have obvious entries, are intimately tied to dragonmarks, and many are also potential early entry

Black Dog: +0, gain poison abilities, death attack, and a very limited HiPS
Blade of Orien: +0, potential shadowpouncer and nice abilities, but very limited uses per day
Cyre Scout: +1, gain limited infusions (I don't think any other class gives you that), blindsense, detect magic & identify
Deneith Warden: +0, gain track or urban tracking, gain mettle, improved uncanny dodge, other abilities meh
Duraak'Ash: +0, swift tracker, favored enemy, trackless step, can actually track after those who used "pass without trace", 6+int skill points, maybe a low +1 since the abilities are solid if underwhelming
Medani Prophet: +0, 5/5 divine casting advancement, divination abilities are lackluster, but it's full casting so you don't really lose much
Nosomatic Chirurgeon: +1, 4/5 any casting advancement, grants adept casting if you don't have any, spontaneously convert SLAs into inflict spells which allows entry into any number of PrCs which require casting, gain plague abilities, immune to disease
Shadow Hunter: -1, shadow based abilities which are limited in use, aren't that great, and provoke AoO... but at least you get good BAB, Fort/Ref saves, and 6+int skill points
Silver Key: +0, solid rogue abilities but nothing outstanding, 6+int skill points
Storm Sentry: -1, abilities are meh
Unbound Scroll: +0, 4/5 any casting advancement, boosts your ability to use scrolls a few times per day (would be a higher rating if you could use your abilities more frequently) and makes them cheaper to scribe, maybe +1 if you intend to do a lot of scribing
Vandalis Beastkeeper: +1, gain minor divine casting, progresses animal companion or mount and adds magebred template, boosted summons, bonus feats, ability score boost

Player's Guide to Eberron

Gatekeeper Mystagogue: +0 (druid), +1 (other), gain animal companion with bonuses, 9/10 divine advancement, poison immunity, slippery mind, various abilities vs aberrations
High Elemental Binder: +0, 9/10 any casting, gain elemental companion, elemental binding abilities which sound nice on paper but aren't really that great
Revenant Blade: +1, stacks for animal companion (w/ranger only), treat both ends of a Valenar Double Scimitar as a two handed weapon

Secrets of Xen'drik

Landforged Walker: -1 (druid), +1 (other), 4/5 divine casting, commune with nature and speak with plants, gain plant wild shape based off character level
Primal Scholar: +1, 5/5 any casting, gain bardic knowledge and other ok abilities, class is better if you abuse action points
Scorpion Wraith: +0, gain poison use and sudden strike, blindsight 1/day

Sharn: City of Towers:

Cannith Wand Adept: +0 (most classes), +1 (artificer), dual wielding blastificer anyone?
Citadel Elite: -2 (casting), +1 (melee), 2/5 any casting OR bonus feats, immune to fear, Wis to Fort, extra action points, combat boosts
Sharn Skymage: -2, 2/5 any casting, improves your flight spells, but that doesn't make up for three lost caster levels
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Saeomon May 24, 2010, 08:08:08 PM
Several of the more popular psionic PrCs are contained in the Mind's Eye archive. I thought I'd take a crack at 'em.

Constructor +1 Tier
Pro: Makes Astral Construct, already one of the best powers, even more powerful. Adds to the versatility of that power. Ironically becomes even more powerful if the Complete Psionic nerf is used, at least at high levels (still wouldn't want to play with that nerf if I could avoid it). More skill points than the base Psion.
Con: Non-Shaper Psions must either take the Expanded Knowledge feat or spend XP on research to learn Psionic Repair Damage, a weak, bordering on useless, power (unless you're a Warforged). Must also take Ecto Protection, an even less useful power, to enter the PrC. Having two of your low-level powers locked up in this way can really hurt, since some of the best Psionic powers are in the first few levels. Only 8/10 ML.

Crystal Master +0 Tiers
Pro: Gets to pick and choose from a long list of class features, many of which mimic other class' features, such as poison immunity, fear immunity, etc. Also gets access to untyped stat bonuses. More skill points.
Con: 8/10 ML, and, in this case, the loss of 2 ML hurts a bit more, making selecting this PrC a wash. Many of the best class features available for selection require you to maintain your psionic focus, making it harder to apply metapsionic feats to your powers. Furthermore, the best class features available are defensive in nature or seem geared toward a gish-type psion, and the PrC has the lowest BAB and only a d4 hit die.

X-kineticist +Varies Tiers
The X-kineticist is a variation of the Pyrokineticist from the XPH. Here, "X" denotes the several other types of energy attacks. You have cold-wielding Cryokineticists, sound-based Sonokineticists, zap-happy Electrokineticists, and the caustic Acetokineticists. On this thread, the base Pyrokineticist is a -1 Tier PrC. Using that as a base point of reference, and using the rules as written for this PrC, I'd rate the others as follows:

Cryokineticist, Electrokineticist, Acetokineticist: -1 Tier
Sonokineticist: +0 Tiers

The rationale is as follows. The Electro- and Aceto-kineticist are exactly the same as the Pyrokineticist and therefore have the same impact, tier-wise. The Cryokineticist has the advantage of targeting Fort instead of Ref with its powers, putting it a little ahead of the other types, but not enough to truly make a difference. The Sonokineticist, on the other hand, has two big advantages: one, the type of energy it utilizes is rarely resisted, and two, under the rules for the class, the energy it manipulates ignores hardness. This opens up a whole realm of options and tactical uses for its powers. Not enough to make the PrC outshine any single-classed character, though.

Sangehirn +0 Tiers
Pro: 9/10 ML. Better hit die, BAB and skill points than Psion, plus good Fort and Will saves. Damage reduction 5/- over 10 levels. Fast healing 3 over 10 levels. Can apply a number of self-only powers to allies.
Con: Very limited power selection; the list of powers that Sangehirns can choose from is very small, compared to the Psion/Wilder list. Applying a self-only power to an ally requires the expense of psionic focus, limiting the versatility of this class feature.

Meditant +1 Tier
Pro: 9/10 ML. Medium BAB. Unlimited-duration Etherealness at high levels. Additionally, receives a long list of meditation-related abilities that rival, and in some cases surpass, the effect of powers. These abilities, which can be tailored to meet the needs of the campaign, include hour-long, untyped bonuses to three stats at once, up to 30 bonus PP at a time, and scaling power resistance. The capstone of the PrC increases the duration of these bonuses to 4 hours, and allows them to be activated as a swift action.
Con: Heavy feat investment (four total) to enter the class; those feats make up the base of power for the class, and, while good for a Meditant, aren't ones that would be taken by anyone not planning to go into this class. Many of the bonuses seem intended for a melee-based/gish-type character, and the class only has a base d4 hit die. Class features are not available unless the character invests a significant amount of time in meditation; if the character is ever knocked out, or voluntarily "resets" these abilities, he or she must meditate again for a similar amount of time. In order to access some of the best class features, the character must reduce the number of times/day he or she can activate those features. Low skill points. Requires you to be Lawful.

Psychic Weapon Master -2 Tiers
Con: I'm doing the cons first because I don't see a lot of pros to this class, as causes you to lose 5 ML, which is bad, bad, bad, and requires a LOT of feats to enter.
Pro: That +10 weapon. Some feats. Full BAB.
Analysis:  In exchange for each of those lost levels, this PrC grants a number of mediocre feats, and gets to increase the critical multiplier on its chosen weapon a few times a day. Its biggest selling points are that it gets a free +10 weapon over 10 levels, and an extra psionic focus (giving you 3 if you also have a psicrystal). Additionally, it has full BAB and 4+Int mod skill points/level, putting it above the Psychic Warrior in those areas. Nevertheless, since its signature class feature is that it gains a free +10 weapon, something which most melee characters will eventually purchase or find, and which a Psychic Warrior can more-or-less obtain using the 1st level power Call Weapon, this PrC is just full of meh in my opinion.

Psychic Theurge -2 Tiers
This PrC is a carbon copy of the Mystic Theurge, only with psionic powers instead of arcane spells. For all the reasons that the Mystic Theurge is bad, this PrC is bad, if not worse. Might be slightly better for an Ardent/Cleric, since it's less MAD, but still not as good as a single-classed Ardent or single-classed Cleric.

Body Leech -2 Tiers
I'm really not all that familiar with this PrC, but I'll try to rate it anyway.
Pro: A 5-level psionic PrC. Its class features grant you temporary power points. Gives you a way of cheating death, through an ability appropriately named "Cheat Death."
Con: Only progresses your ML for 3 out of the 5 levels. Temporary power points gained must be used in a very short period of time. Class features can only be used over a limited distance. Requires you to be evil, and a quite nasty kind of evil at that.
Analysis: This PrC is much more appropriate for an NPC. Fits well with an evil Thrallherd.

Soul Manifester +/-? Tiers
I know nothing about Incarnum, so I can't truly assess this PrC. If I had to take a wild guess I'd put it at -1 Tier, since it is similar to the Mystic Theurge dual-caster-level-increasing PrCs, but not as bad as those PrCs since, based off what I've read about Incarnum on other forums, there's a little more synergy between Incarnum and psionics.

Well, that's my analysis. Any comments or suggestions are welcome, of course.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Bastian May 24, 2010, 08:51:43 PM
Alchemist Savant: a low +1, full casting or infusions, you don't lose anything and gain some nice brewing abilities, solid +1 at the low-mid levels and providing potion buffs for your party
I would argue that for an artificer it's not a +1 since an artificer's main advantages are its feats and its crafting. For an artificer it would be more of a +0 or -1.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Phirsole May 25, 2010, 06:16:41 AM
Psychic Theurge is -1 Tier, not -2.

Pro: - Manifesting and casting in armor
- cure spells or vigor power to offset overchannel damage
- augmenting powers somewhat offsets the lack of highest-level-powers
- No MAD for Cle/Ardent, Dru/Ardent, Archivist/psion or erudite, Favored Soul/wilder.
- You may nova on the psion side without becoming useless - cast your divine spells.
- A psion may be a good blaster without dedicating too many feats/items/PrCs into it - just keep your ML and INT-score up.
- The PT may fill most roles the party needs. Healer/sage/blaster/buffer/controller, and even mediocre tank (two sources to buff, heavy armor and shield; astral construct is still far better).

Con: all the reasons the mystic theurge is tier-1, especially the lack of higher-level spells and powers in the early levels.
- additionally no feat synergy between metamagic and psionics - or other feats which boost spellcasting or manifesting (spell penetration does not work on psionics, augment summoning not on astral constructs...)
- Absolutely feat-starved (you'll need the "practiced" and "overchannel" feats to have the psion side boosted to ML>=character level).
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: cru May 25, 2010, 10:53:03 AM
review of Eberron classes
Deadgrim: +1 for paladin entry (or basically most melee builds with dip into divine magic)
I think the save bonuses / immunities vs undead are quite strong:
* +4 vs poison, paralysis, stun, disease...
* immune to sleep, death effects, energy drain
Bonus to intimidate could perhaps also be used in the right build
5th lvl ability sucks though, you can be turned/rebuked, I'd avoid that

Impure Prince
PrC can be useful to classes that don't get 9th lvl spells and have limited spell list, e.g. Suel Arcanamach or Duskblade, for these it could be a decent +1

Vadalis Beastkeeper: +0 for ranger
obvious entry is ranger 4. the class requires mounted combat to enter. the class grants ranger like spells from a limited list. Spells suck except 4th lvl spells: animal growth, freedom of movement, polymorph; you get 0+bonus 4th lvl spells at ECL 14. Magebred summoning is a trap; why would you spend a full round action at lvl 14 to cast SNA IV? You also get 3 bonus feats (animal and mounted combat related).
I see this as a mounted combat style ranger with worse spells than plain ranger

Gatekeeper Mystagogue: -1 for a druid
- no wild shape progression
- loses one (first) spell casting level
- needs two feats
- prc abilities only usable vs aberrations (except slippery mind)
- prc abilities have cha-based saving throw
Entering this class without druid is tricky, as repel aberrations feat requires 3 druid levels

Children of Khyber: +1 to builds without spell casting
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20070416a
5 levels, d8, 3/4 BAB, all good saves
access to dragonmarks can greatly increase your mundane fighting abilities
take first 4 levels only, 5th lvl gives you nothing
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: snakeman830 June 14, 2010, 12:38:44 PM
Sharn: City of Towers

Cannith Wand Adept: Logical entry: Artificier 5
-2

Pros: Lets you do some interesting things with wands from firing two off at once to adding your class level to save DC's, to burning wand charges to modify rolls as though you spent action points (note: you can't use it for anything else).  Also, it's short and you can get 9th level spells with a wizard entry (3 levels long).  Least Dragonmark (Mark of Making0 as a bonus feat at the end, or an additional use per day if you already have it.

Cons: Doesn't advance casting at all.  This is less of a problem for artificiers than it is for wizards or sorcerers, but it still doesn't help.  Also doesn't advance any other class features.  The fact that the entire PrC revolves around a concumable item type is also a downside as you tend to burn through cash quickly that way.  It also requires 3 feats to enter.

Citadel Elite
Logical Entry: Full BAB 7 (8 if Fighter)
Tier: +1 for Fighters if not using eratta, +0 if you are.  +0 for other full BAB without eratta, -1 with, -2 for casters.

Pros: full BAB, good Will save, 1 extra action point per level, immunity to fear, Wis as a bonus to Fort saves, character level-based Smite 1/day, diplomatic immunity in Breland, Aundair, Thrane, Karrnath, and Zilargo, up to +5 insight bonus to AC, unrestricted bonus feats on even levels, and the ability to ignore up to 5 points of AC from Dexterity or Dodge bonuses.  The eratta changes this to a +5 insight bonus on attack rolls.  Also gives a small bonus to a few social skills.

Cons: you can trade the bonus feats for casting advancement, which makes it 2/5, but it still sucks.  Eratta removes the bonus feats entirely, making what was actually decent for a Fighter into complete crap.  None of the class features are really that impressive, especially not in a game where the diplomatic immunity doesn't kick in.

Sharn Skymage -2
Logical entry: Wizard 5

Pros: lets you fly better and gives you a little more flexibility on what feats you quialify for.  Also increases your caster level when casting spells that can let you fly, including Polymorph and its ilk.  Flyby Attack as a bonus feat, and auto-extending of all spells that can grant flight.  A few other magic-flight benefits.  Easy qualification that most wizards will meet anyway.

Cons: 2/5 casting on a casting-focused PrC.  Just pure fail.  This is like the Swiftblade of Fly spells and they failed miserably.

A 2 level dip isn't *too* horrible, as you only lose one caster level and get another +2 when casting spells that can let you fly.  It also nets you Flyby Attack.

: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: The_Mad_Linguist June 14, 2010, 04:17:18 PM
Do eternal wands count as wands for that?
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: snakeman830 June 14, 2010, 04:21:28 PM
A couple of the abilities refrence draining charges from the wand, but no mention is ever made of Eternal Wands.

There's another PrC that's +1 for Fighters, probably -1 or -2 for anyone else.  The reason why it's good for Fighters is that it keeps up a bonus feat at each even level, but they aren't restricted and beyond that it gets some class features (a couple being useful).
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Littha June 25, 2010, 02:23:52 PM
Looking through Oriental Adventures with the 3.5 update I came up with this:

Battle Maiden: -1?
I'd imagine sohei/samurai entry or paladin if you are using them.

Bear Warrior: reprinted elsewhere

Blade Dancer -2
Id put this at -3 f it existed, its that bad.

Eunuch Warlock: +2?
free metamagic and caster level increases, with 3.5 update is 9/10 casting. Free leadership feat.

Henshin Mystic: +1?
Better than just monk but what isnt?

Iaijutsu master: +1
Requires a skill that is cross class to just about everyone, Int to AC and Cha to Initiative and iaijutsu are nice, one strike 2 cuts would be nice if every melee character in existance didnt take a level of barbarian for pounce.

Kishi Charger: +2?
Full mounted attack is nice and ride checks instead of attack rolls would be nice if it were more than once per day. Deadly charge makes a mounted ubercharger better and 1/day reroll on any roll is good.

Ninja Spy: +1
Hide in plain sight and free exotic weapon proficiencies along with sneak attack.

Shadow Scout: -1
Memory is nice but everything else is forgettable.

Shapeshifter: +2
For a shifter or a changeling a 1 level dip gets you wild shape 3/day limited by character level (not class level) half casting too but i would take it on a melee character that can meet the concentration skill needed (warblade?)

Shintao monk: -1
lots of 1/day SLAs that dont do anything isnt worth going into the class.

Singh rager:+1
Rage, pounce, haste and 2 good saves

Tattooed monk: reprinted

Void Diciple: reprinted

Kensei: reprinted

Witch Hunter: reprinted in ToM

Yakuza: -1
leadership is the redeeming feature and even then its not worth 5 class levels.

thoughts?



: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: The_Mad_Linguist June 25, 2010, 05:01:36 PM
The iaijutsu master also gets 9*cha to damage when using iaijutsu focus, which is total hax.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Littha June 25, 2010, 05:06:20 PM
true, id still leave it at +1 though as the only classes you can get into it without spending a vast ammount of cross class skillpoints are Samural, Sohei and Factorum and facorums have better things to do with their time.

Might be a +2 for Samurai but thats only slightly better than fighter in any case
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Generic_PC June 26, 2010, 06:14:29 PM
A problem with the list... Pretty sure Dweomerkeeper isn't in Complete Divine. I found it in Faiths and Pantheons.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Littha June 26, 2010, 06:18:01 PM
Complete Divine Web enhancement.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Generic_PC June 26, 2010, 06:18:37 PM
Ah, ok then. I'll let it slide. This time.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Wings of Peace June 27, 2010, 09:17:01 AM
Perhaps this has been addressed or I'm just blind, but I didn't see Spelldancer on any of the lists.  It's from Magic of Faerun and given that with a 1 level dip you can effectively persist as much as you want it seems it should be mentioned somewhere.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Glutton June 27, 2010, 06:12:31 PM
Complete Champion:
Fist of the Forest: [spoiler]Nothing too new or interesting; primal living is a great setback.
Neither up nor down a tier, maybe up one in the right circumstances. About the only thing this has over the similar monk is a faster unarmed progression, Full BAB, and d10 hd. It loses will save. If the AC bonus stacks with that of say, the monk, it's cool, but still not a significant bump in power[/spoiler]
Forest Reeve: [spoiler]In a low magic setting, earth's defender is cool. Otherwise, not really. If you have any sort of magical weaponry, it's next to useless- a +3 weapon at level 10? Not too impressive.
Fast movement is nifty but not too big.
Nature's Rejuvenation is cool in flavor, but it isn't that great. The rest of the abilities, save whispers of the forest, are kinda ehhhh. Whispers of the forest is useful, but 1/day is kinda lame.
The chasis is not that great, either- it gains little compared to the ranger.
It's probably +0, at best. It doesn't make your life any worse, but it doesn't do anything too cool or interesting. Does not progress ranger/druid casting.[/spoiler]
Holt Warden: [spoiler]Full casting, so at least somewhat useful. Seems to be a transformative class- probably good with cleric entry. Plant domain is useful but not astounding. Earth's Communion is great for out of combat healing at the level it comes (as early as lvl. 8!) but doesn't really change the game too much.
Whispers of the Forest is cool, if only for the insight ability.
Web of Life is AWESOME. In short.
So, I'd say up 1 tier in general. With cleric entry, up as much as 2 tiers.[/spoiler]
Mythic Exemplar: [spoiler]Class is very modular, so could be useful. Can be as much as 8/10 casting with Imdastri or Ktolemange as patron. Otherwise is 5/10, which is crap unless you don't care about casting anyway (full BAB class) but then you're taking a hit to BAB with the class's 3/4 BAB.
Seems like best path is probably Imdastri, for the capstone- even then, at MOST MOST MOST +1 tier. Luck, Protection and Strength are great domains, but probably not worth 2 levels of casting. You could do better, but you could do a lot worse. For a cleric entry, which seems the most logical, you're gaining the one thing you don't have- class abilities.
Would be more solidly up one tier if it gave Full BAB on some of the paths.[/spoiler]
Ordained Champion:
[spoiler]Well spoken of for gish clerics, and for good reason. Bonus domain, Combat Feats, and Continued advancement all make Ordained Champion mesh well with a cleric entry. Modified Spontaneous Casting is bump in power- spontaneous curing is kinda lame. Harming is a mixed bag.
Diehard is cool but taking endurance sucks, so getting it for free is cool but not incredible.
Smite is useful because it's not limited by alignment. The charisma synergy is kinda crap cause of MAD, but still useful.
Channel Spell is AWESOME. Like, hands down AMAZING. I cannot praise this ability enough.
Divine Bulwark is nice because DR is useful in combat no matter what and you have swift actions all the time.
Fist of the Gods is nice, once again, swift action economy plus combat usefulness.
Rapid Spontaneous Casting. HERE IT IS. This is great. Now, instead of having to Persistify Divine Power, you can instead pop one off as a Swift action in the first round of combat. This is an AMAZING ability. The war domain is useful in general, and this pumps its usefulness.
Holy Warrior is interesting, but not so useful. It is not bad, and certainly has uses, but is mostly eclipsed by Intuitave Strike. This is useful, however, in that it applies to all weapons. Useful if your Wis is higher, which it almost certainly is. In fact, With four turning uses (you don't need them so much for persistent effects with the Rapid Spontaneous) you can do it for the standard 4 encounters/day.
War Caster is Gravy. +2 CL is nice but not game changing.
For a Gish cleric, which the class deliberately caters to, the Ordained is AMAZING. It is easily up one tier, and probably up two- for a cleric. If you enter as a paladin, it's still useful, but not as much. Archivists will LOVe it, as well. The Chasis is good, with full BAB, d8, and the two good saves being the important ones. The only thing it doesn't really have is skill points, but a Cloistered Cleric entry fixes that.[/spoiler]
Paragnostic Apostle
[spoiler]Lore is a Bardic Knowledge Clone, and is useful, but mostly a roleplay device. Holy Texts is nice for cleric entry, but would be much better if it granted Turning if you didn't already have it. Knowledge is Power is the cornerstone of the class; depending on the ones you select, you could be great or awful. None of them are particularly useful or gamebreaking, but they are neat perks. Mind over Matter is great for any wizard; there's a plethora of summoning abilities that would be nice for a Malconvoker.
In general, up .5 tier. Maybe up one, maybe neither up nor down.
[/spoiler]
Paragnostic Intitate:
[spoiler]The combat focused counterpart of the Paragnostic Apostle. Their abilities are focused on assiting casters. On initial glance, the Chasis is pretty impressive- full BAB, two good saves (F and R), 6+ skills per level with a decent list, and d8 hd.
The Tactical Combat abilities are the mainstay of the class; most of them are useful but not greatly so. Perhaps the most useful is Mystical Augmentation, if the domain is chosen carefully. They aren't that valuable, in the end.
The Assist Casting abilities are useful, but in many ways require difficult circumstances- Distraction will reasonably almost never be used, and is moderately valuable when it is. Target is useful if one of your casters loves damage spells to death, which is not really a great thing.
Penetration is a very minor bonus; the once per round limitation keeps it from being highly useful. Tactical Combat's usefulness is shaky, at best.
The Paragnostic Initiate is neither up nor down a tier.[/spoiler]
Sanctified One:
[spoiler]Another modular PRC; entry reqs indicate that it's intended for a character with good combat skills, yet it only has three quarter BAB. Three good saves, otoh, is pretty great, and d8 HD is average. The paths themselves aren't that great- they give you choice of abilities. The spellcasting progression seems misplaced, too. A cleric could enter, but would lose two levels of casting for some etcetera abilities; the class is said to not be intended for paladins and none of the dieties the class caters to are LG, so no go. The class is a slight improvement for a melee type, and a loss for a caster. So, with Cleric entry, -1, any other +0.
[/spoiler]
Shadowspy:
[spoiler]Little schizophrenic. Has skillmoney requirements with casting requirements; necessitates multiclassing.
Only advances casting 1/2 of time, three quarter BAB, d6 hd, but good reflex and wll saves. The abilities primarily emulate spells that you would've gotten anyway if you didn't multiclass for it; I'd say unless there's some optimized entry, you're looking at -1 to even -2. It simply doesn't fulfill any role to well, nor does it do anything too new or interesting.
[/spoiler]
Shadowstriker:
[spoiler]Bit better than shadowspy. Full BAB, two good saves, easy entry requirements. Badge of Office is a roleplay and poorly defined ability; it's 100% setting dependent. Luminous Weapon is nice, but increases MAD. D'oh! Smite Evil is useful but not too groundbreaking. Sun's Blessing can only be used 1/day unless you have another source of smite/turn/spontaneous casting, and unless you're specifically using it for the Daylight effect, it's pretty much suck. Surge of Piety is much the same, and only works on Undead. In the right campaigns this is useful, but in general, the shadowstriker is +0 tiers.[/spoiler]
Squire of Legend:[spoiler] Entry Requirements are very broad; you can enter from almost anything, really.
As fro the class abilities, the chassis is relatively poor- one good save, your choice, three quarter BAB (but it comes out to only one point lost as the class is 3 levels).
Squire's Burden is the mainstay of the class's power; as such, it is your primary combat ability. However, it's none too special; the various paths are relatively balanced against one another, but do not grant a lot of power. Reikhardt's least ability is actually quite useful- burning standard actions for someone else to take one seems like a bad joke, but a fighter, for instance, is less useful attacking or even full attacking than the wizard or cleric is casting another spell. However, as the abilities are usable once per day, they don't come up that often.
All in all, the squire of legend is useful but not incredibly so. I'd say it's between +0 and +1 in terms of power; it does little unique or extensively useful. The note about using leadership to acquire a Squire of Legend is largely developer wanking- it isn't any more overpowering than a warblade or other similar T3 class of the same level. A white raven warblade does the whole thing better, for example.[/spoiler]

Chime in: Fist is +1
Warden is -1 for druid +2 for cleric
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: snakeman830 June 27, 2010, 08:40:49 PM
Fist of the Forest is +0 most definitely.  You don't gain any new capabilities with it, but you don't lose out on much either.  Feral Living is indeed a huge setback in most games, but not all.

The fact is, FotF just doesn't shine unless combined with other PrC's.  These rankings are not based off of combining PrC's, but on how they affect their base classes.  Fist of the Forest doesn't give enough to any base class to justify being up one tier.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Glutton June 28, 2010, 03:20:48 AM
I've seen you state this multiple times and I respectfully disagree.

I'll let the thread author decide when he/she finally updates this.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: deuxhero June 28, 2010, 01:03:50 PM
The iaijutsu master also gets 9*cha to damage when using iaijutsu focus, which is total hax.

Cha as in total charisma (not modifier?) *spit take*

Even with 10 charisma that's 90 damage right there! Even a low (for a build using it) 14 charisma 2 turns big T before other damage!

Is that the main feature or a capstone?
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Littha June 28, 2010, 01:09:46 PM
its Cha bonus, i don't think you ever add your base stat to anything at all...
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: The_Mad_Linguist June 28, 2010, 01:42:15 PM
Yeah, it's cha bonus.  Doesn't really make it that much less broken, what with the numerous ways of increasing cha.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Littha June 28, 2010, 01:56:09 PM
Even if it were Cha score it would be nowhere in the same region as broken for D&D...
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Eardatch June 28, 2010, 02:17:07 PM
Looking through Oriental Adventures with the 3.5 update I came up with this:

Battle Maiden: -1?
I'd imagine sohei/samurai entry or paladin if you are using them.

Bear Warrior: reprinted elsewhere

Blade Dancer -2
Id put this at -3 f it existed, its that bad.

Considering the tiers of their entry (some fighter perhaps as well) I'd put the Battle Maiden at +1. They get a nice mount and +6 to ride checks, initiative, AC and attack just for being mounted,

As for the Blade Dancer, yea it's prerequisites suck, but at first level the class doubles your speed and gives you +10 to jump, tumble, and balance. I think a 1-level dip is a mainstay for many dragoon builds for the what can amount to roughly a +30 bonus to jump. If used correctly this is tier +1 or 2.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Littha June 28, 2010, 02:22:30 PM
True 1 level is nice, the requirements REALLY suck though....

3 suboptimal feats
BAB +7
able to cast arcane or divine spells...

you have to be lawful as well which limits dragoon builds to no barbarian dip for pounce I think...
Edit: apparently you wouldn't lose pounce, you would lose whirling frenzy if you traded your rage for it though (i think)
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: carnivore July 16, 2010, 06:42:16 PM
bump so people can find it without searching .... it was only on page 6 ...  :smirk

 :D

: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: nnadeau July 17, 2010, 05:04:52 PM
Wanted to thank you for the great resource...

Out of curiosity, has anyone done a write-up of the PrCs in Pathfinder RPG?  I'm specifically looking at the Arcane Trickster.  It seems the it now stands at a +0 or +1, depending on optimization.  I know that dual-class entries generally come at a big cost, but look at the final outcome for a Rog3/Wiz7/ArT10:
Sneak Attack +7d6
Ability to cast 1 9th level spell (2 if you're a specialist)
Automatic Still & Silent Spells
Sneak Attack Damage on Spells.
Evasion

The sacrifice, however, is significant: 3 9th level spells, 1 8th level spell, and 1 7th level spell.  He would also lose a bonus feat.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: dna1 July 17, 2010, 09:20:05 PM
Is there a difference between this prc tier thread, and this one --->  http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3876.0

whats the diff? which one should I use?
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: tusk August 05, 2010, 01:43:31 AM
Is there a difference between this prc tier thread, and this one --->  http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3876.0

whats the diff? which one should I use?
Reincarnation, man
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: dna1 August 05, 2010, 04:35:18 AM
So is this the reincarnation or is that one?  ???
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: PlzBreakMyCampaign August 06, 2010, 02:32:44 PM
This is the kept-up one (supposedly)

Thief of Life: -1, possibly the only PrC printed outside of MoI that has incarnum support, class abilities are incredibly niche, possible entry by 3rd level with a glimmerskin halfling rogue/spellthief
um... how? I just looked and saw no incarnum progression and the abilities are all blood/death based...

Cyre Scout: +1, gain limited infusions (I don't think any other class gives you that), blindsense, detect magic & identify
ya

The last few pages look okay, but I think the OA post needs a more careful look.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Sinfire Titan August 07, 2010, 03:00:49 AM
This is the kept-up one (supposedly)

Thief of Life: -1, possibly the only PrC printed outside of MoI that has incarnum support, class abilities are incredibly niche, possible entry by 3rd level with a glimmerskin halfling rogue/spellthief
um... how? I just looked and saw no incarnum progression and the abilities are all blood/death based...

One of the abilities grants 1 point of Essentia if you have an Essentia Pool. It's incredibly lame support.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: The_Mad_Linguist August 09, 2010, 10:22:06 PM
I'd quibble about master of the unseen hand being -2.  Given that the only reason to enter it is if you're trying to exploit telekinesis for all its worth, it should probably be evaluated more for how much it adds to a spellcaster focusing on telekinesis.

And while the lack of progression sucks, full attack telekinesis is stupidly good with arcane thesis and chain spell.  Yeah, it's direct damage, but with 84 attacks per round worth of direct damage you can actually get somewhere. 

I can understand it being -1 (the loss of versatility is pretty bad), but it's nowhere near the same league as, say, the solar channeler.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Benly August 14, 2010, 04:23:29 AM
Reading this guide, two things come to mind.

Rainbow Servant is listed as a +2 for Warmage entry. What do you think of it for Beguiler/Dread Necromancer entry? (Bizarrely, a LN or TN Dread Necro can qualify.) On the one hand, as full-list casters they gain the same huge boost from domains and the capstone that warmages do - on the other hand, Beguilers and Dread Necros are better classes to begin with. Personally, I lean towards +1 for them (although a Beguiler/DN Rainbow Servant will still end up above a Warmage Rainbow Servant most likely.)

The other thing I was thinking about is the Trapsmith from Dungeonscape. Personally, I rate it a +1 for most obvious entries - you lose sneak attack (or skirmish, or factotum features) but you get some excellent spellcasting and some nice class features (very nice in the right campaign, pretty good in most). I might even rate it higher for a spellthief entry with Master Spellthief - although it's probably not a tier +2. There is a wacky trick using Trapsmith as an entry for Swiftblade but its legality is slightly arguable and my understanding is that this guide isn't about niche stunts.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: The_Mad_Linguist August 14, 2010, 04:35:37 AM
Dread necromancer gets a couple of synergies the warmage doesn't (magic circle against evil greatly assists planar binding, and your rebuking gives a pool for divine feats, including DMM later on). 
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Benly August 14, 2010, 04:46:43 AM
Dread necromancer gets a couple of synergies the warmage doesn't (magic circle against evil greatly assists planar binding, and your rebuking gives a pool for divine feats, including DMM later on). 

Hm, this is true. I tend to think of DMM and summoning-trap-rooms for undead animation as smacking of shenanigans, but as long as we're talking about a DN->Rainbow Servant shenanigans is something of a relative term.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: The_Mad_Linguist August 14, 2010, 05:04:30 AM
With magic circle you can actually planar bind things without death+reanimation shenanigans.

And it's not like you're going to be persist focused.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Benly August 14, 2010, 05:18:05 AM
With magic circle you can actually planar bind things without death+reanimation shenanigans.

And it's not like you're going to be persist focused.

True. It's just hard to get the reek of shenanigans off of DMM, and when I hear planar binding while talking about DNs... well, I'm used to dealing with somewhat less pragmatic theorycrafters on optimization boards. It's a pleasant surprise hearing someone suggest non-shenanigans applications of these.

I'm not entirely sure what metamagics would go well with DMM for a Dread Necro, but once you get the entire frigging cleric list on your spont, considerable flexibility is gained, I suppose.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Zemyla September 06, 2010, 09:34:27 AM
Here's some stuff from Player's Guide to Eberron and Five Nations.

Gatekeeper Mystagogue (PGtE) - -1 with druid entry, +0 with non-druid entry.  It advances or grants an animal companion, has 9/10 spellcasting, and has a bunch of features that are useful against aberrations, but not much else.  Though it does give you poison immunity, slippery mind, and a kind of dimensional lock ability.  Losing wildshape is too much trouble for druids, though.

High Elemental Binder (PGtE) - -1.  You lose a level of spellcasting, but get an elemental companion.  And a bunch of features that would be real useful for gishes if only it didn't have d6 HD and 3/4 BAB.

Revenant Blade (PGtE) - +2.  This class single-handedly (well, two-handedly) made dual-wielding viable.  If you're an elf and you're going into melee, take it and never look back.

Knight Phantom (5N) - +1.  A much better version of the eldritch knight, even if the prereqs are wonky.

Dark Lantern (5N) - +0.  It's not really as bad as I remembered it being, just lackluster.  It gives you a bunch of rogue special abilities and full sneak attack progression, so it's not too bad compared to a straight rogue.

Cyran Avenger (5N) - +0.  A five-level gish class with smiting.  Not terrible, but not awesome, either.

Bone Knight (5N) - +2.  Sacrifice a caster level for a bucketload of immunities?  Certainly!

Silver Pyromancer (5N) - +1.  For setting things on fire, it doesn't get better than this.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: iferius December 25, 2010, 07:43:03 AM
And now, this long-time lurker has finally registered to say:

Cityscape is not complete yet.

The Ebonmar Infiltrator is +1 (it progresses most rogue abilities, grants spells, dodge and reflex bonuses, hide in plain sight and blindsense 5 ft. It does require two crappy feats though.)

Crimson Scourge: +0 (Even though the first 6 levels do not offer much useful class abilities, you still have full BAB and 6 skill points. Getting Scent and an immunity to pain manipulating spells at the end makes this a strong +0 PrC.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: cru December 25, 2010, 07:46:45 AM
@Knight Phantom - is it really that much better than Eldritch Knight?
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: X-Codes December 25, 2010, 08:21:34 AM
@Knight Phantom - is it really that much better than Eldritch Knight?
No, it isn't.  If we're going with some kind of +/- system then I'd say they're both -1 PrCs for anything but some kind of Warmage entry.  You're probably sacrificing 2 caster levels to take these classes, and that's pretty much the definition of playing nice when we're talking about Sorcerers and Wizards.

That said, I don't like 10-level PrCs getting a +/- rating.  Any properly built Incantatrix is a Tier 1 character, even if you advance something like Duskblade casting with it.  It can still freely persist the spells of other characters and/or spells from wands and scrolls.  Eldritch Knight and Knight Phantom are both Tier 2.

Something substantially shorter, say 5 levels or so, can still work with the +/- rating system, although such dips should rarely result in a + rating, IMO.  Shadowcraft Mage is a -1 PrC.  A sorcerer/SCM is Tier 1.  A Cleric/SCM or Wizard/SCM is Tier 0.

Classes that can be effectively used in both ways should get both ratings.  A Mindbender, for example, is a Tier 3 class for all 10 levels, and a -0 tier dip.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: The_Mad_Linguist December 26, 2010, 08:32:19 PM
That said, I don't like 10-level PrCs getting a +/- rating.  Any properly built Incantatrix is a Tier 1 character, even if you advance something like Duskblade casting with it.  It can still freely persist the spells of other characters and/or spells from wands and scrolls.  Eldritch Knight and Knight Phantom are both Tier 2.

That's why the ratings are based upon the expected entry for the PrC.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: X-Codes February 09, 2011, 03:40:23 AM
That said, I don't like 10-level PrCs getting a +/- rating.  Any properly built Incantatrix is a Tier 1 character, even if you advance something like Duskblade casting with it.  It can still freely persist the spells of other characters and/or spells from wands and scrolls.  Eldritch Knight and Knight Phantom are both Tier 2.

That's why the ratings are based upon the expected entry for the PrC.
If it's based on an "expected" entry, then why generalize it?  What does it mean to be a "Tier -1" Wizard/Incantatrix or a "Tier 0" Sorcerer/Incantatrix?  Is a Sorcerer/Incantatrix really significantly better than a Dread Necromancer/Incantatrix or a Beguiler/Incantatrix?  Also, what's the expected entry for a PrC like Battle Trickster, which is explicitly designed to be entered into by a wide variety of classes?

I think if you want to have a more accurate listing of the abilities, then there really ought to be more of a hybrid approach.  PrCs with character-defining abilities really should have a static tier just like the base class, where you then take the higher of the PrC's tier or the Base Class' tier to determine how powerful said character is.  For example, I'll revise Incantatrix to a Tier 2 character, because any character that takes 3 levels in Incantatrix has absolutely game-breaking power, even if such power is pretty much only Persistent Spell cheese.

If you want an even more stark example of classes that don't care what the rest of the character does, then let's look at the Ur-Priest.  Fast-progression Tier 1 spellcasting, with class abilities to boot.  Any character that uses the full Ur-Priest spell progression is clearly a Tier 1 character.  Similarly to the Divine Crusader, which is Tier 2.  I'm sure some people won't agree with this, but the Divine Crusader is more than able to cast game-breaking spells like Shapechange, Time Stop, etc. and can even gain multiple different game-breaking spells if adding domains to the class' casting.  This can easily exceed the number of different techniques a Sorcerer can employ.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Mystifu April 25, 2011, 12:19:37 PM
I strongly disagree with shadowsmith being a tier 0. You gain a couple of minor skill bonuses, but most of the classes abilities are focused on giving you benefits that are worse than magic items normally give you. Making shadow weapons is mostly pointless. You don't get a simple magic weapon until at least character level 11, and by level 16 you have effectively a +7 weapon (+5 with shadowstriking). By that times I would expect players start upgrading towards +10 weapons. The deflection bonus would be nice, but it maxes out at +4, which is worse then a ring of deflection, so if you are using it, your AC is lower than it would be.

Basically, you are putting 10 levels into a prestige class to make sub-par equipment. The weapon can't get any cool enchantments other than shadowstriking, they are even worse if you want to dual-weild. It just fails to do what it is trying to do.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Sinfire Titan April 25, 2011, 06:31:41 PM
I strongly disagree with shadowsmith being a tier 0. You gain a couple of minor skill bonuses, but most of the classes abilities are focused on giving you benefits that are worse than magic items normally give you. Making shadow weapons is mostly pointless. You don't get a simple magic weapon until at least character level 11, and by level 16 you have effectively a +7 weapon (+5 with shadowstriking). By that times I would expect players start upgrading towards +10 weapons. The deflection bonus would be nice, but it maxes out at +4, which is worse then a ring of deflection, so if you are using it, your AC is lower than it would be.

Basically, you are putting 10 levels into a prestige class to make sub-par equipment. The weapon can't get any cool enchantments other than shadowstriking, they are even worse if you want to dual-weild. It just fails to do what it is trying to do.

I'll agree with this. It looks like a Gish class, but it's actually closer to the Incarnum Blade than the Eldritch Knight. The Mysteries Known must all be Apprentice level, so you effectively get three 1st level spells as 1/day SLAs (and none of them are that good).


The redeeming qualities? 6+Int Skill Points and Full BAB. And the skill list isn't filled out appropriately for 6+Int skill points, so you'll have excess with even a +1 Int modifier.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Endarire June 18, 2011, 07:49:48 PM
I contest that Bloodstorm Blade (Tome of Battle) is best taken for 4 levels.  After that, it becomes meh.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: snakeman830 June 18, 2011, 07:59:02 PM
I contest that Bloodstorm Blade (Tome of Battle) is best taken for 4 levels.  After that, it becomes meh.
You take it for 2, 4, or 10 levels (10 levels is awesome).  There are no other break points.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: zook1shoe June 19, 2011, 12:11:18 AM
Would Dread Witch go up to "tier +1" or "tier +2" if it had full casting?

EDIT: I noticed many of the 3.0 books are missing, in terms of un-updated PrCs. One of my personal favorites is in Lords of Darkness, the Zhentarim Skymage!
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: stanprollyright June 19, 2011, 02:18:21 AM
I think Sublime Chord should be a +1 instead of +2.  Don't get me wrong, I really really love it, but it pretty much turns your tier 3 bard into a sorcerer, which is tier 2.  Sure, with bardic music and all of the ways to use it to better spellcasting you're a pretty powerful and slightly more versatile sorcerer, but you still suffer from a small list of spells known.  Isn't that the separation between tiers 1 and 2?  They are equal in power, but tier 1s are game breaking in every situation, and tier 2s are game breaking only in certain situations?
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: TenaciousJ June 19, 2011, 02:32:36 AM
Sublime Chord is powerful because you can get into with combinations of classes instead of just straight bard.  It's good for dual progression because of the fast advancement, and I'm sure others can point out more advantages.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: zook1shoe June 19, 2011, 02:40:10 AM
Also its one of three exponential caster level progression prestige classes
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: stanprollyright June 19, 2011, 02:52:24 AM
Sublime Chord is powerful because you can get into with combinations of classes instead of just straight bard.  It's good for dual progression because of the fast advancement, and I'm sure others can point out more advantages.

Sure, there's plenty of advantages, it's a fantastic PrC, and a must for all high level bards.  The "typical entry" would have be straight or mostly bard, and I just don't think it breaks into tier 1.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Sinfire Titan June 19, 2011, 11:03:18 AM
Sublime Chord is powerful because you can get into with combinations of classes instead of just straight bard.  It's good for dual progression because of the fast advancement, and I'm sure others can point out more advantages.

Sure, there's plenty of advantages, it's a fantastic PrC, and a must for all high level bards.  The "typical entry" would have be straight or mostly bard, and I just don't think it breaks into tier 1.

I've played one, it's Tier 2 material on it's own.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Suzerain June 19, 2011, 04:46:48 PM
I think Sublime Chord should be a +1 instead of +2.  Don't get me wrong, I really really love it, but it pretty much turns your tier 3 bard into a sorcerer, which is tier 2.  Sure, with bardic music and all of the ways to use it to better spellcasting you're a pretty powerful and slightly more versatile sorcerer, but you still suffer from a small list of spells known.  Isn't that the separation between tiers 1 and 2?  They are equal in power, but tier 1s are game breaking in every situation, and tier 2s are game breaking only in certain situations?

The PrC tiers are not meant to be taken literally. A sublime chord is not a Tier 1 character on its own. It still turns the Bard into a Sorcerer with benefits, which is damn good. Generally, the +2 classes boost their entry classes by at least one tier.



Also, I haven't completely forgotten this thread and I appreciate all the evaluations you've done since the last update. The reason I haven't just updated the tables and be done with it is because I want all of those evaluations discussed and a consensus be found. Ironically, I started this thread because sonofzeal didn't have time to regularly update it. Now I'm the one short on time (and energy).

I've been away for a week and I have things to catch up on. I can't guarantee there will be an update this week, but later this week I should be able to gauge when I'll be able to do that.

If you want to help out, there is three possibilities:
1) Keep posting evaluations for missing PrCs/books
2) Re-evaluate the evaluations of others. This helps lots in stirring up discussion and getting more eyes looked at a particular class.
3) You could take up the mantle yourself. Open a new thread, like I did, and start out. I do have a script somewhere that makes this job somewhat easier (in that it generates forum code from copy-pasted OO-tables), but you'll have to wait for this a little while. I don't have that much time, I haven't slept more than four hours a day this past week and I have lots of work to catch up to. Plus, the script is a hack job and I'd like to sanitize it before publication.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: The_Mad_Linguist June 19, 2011, 05:46:59 PM
I might have mentioned this before, but the current numbering scheme really is misleading at best.  I'd prefer if it were just descriptors IE

Great
Good
Even
Bad
Worst

Or something like that.

There's also the fact that a +2 tiers PrC turns a tier 3 into a tier 2, not a tier 3 into a tier 5.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: zook1shoe June 19, 2011, 07:02:32 PM
I might have mentioned this before, but the current numbering scheme really is misleading at best.  I'd prefer if it were just descriptors IE

Great
Good
Even
Bad
Worst

Or something like that.

There's also the fact that a +2 tiers PrC turns a tier 3 into a tier 2, not a tier 3 into a tier 5.

I like that idea :)
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: The_Mad_Linguist June 19, 2011, 07:11:10 PM
Or maybe just

Stronger
Strong
Even
Weak
Weaker


With a few special cases like Planar Shepherd getting "Strongest"
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Sinfire Titan June 19, 2011, 07:38:43 PM
Knight of the Raven (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft): Full BaB, 9/10s casting, easy entry requirements, gives you a moderately useful mini-familiar (minus XP loss and the 1 year wait if it dies), bonus domain, and the ability to spend Turn attempts to remove negative levels fro you and allies within 30ft (based on the number of HD you can turn). Not as good as the Bone Knight, but damn good for the 9/10s advancement.
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: KellKheraptis June 19, 2011, 07:59:06 PM
I might have mentioned this before, but the current numbering scheme really is misleading at best.  I'd prefer if it were just descriptors IE

Great
Good
Even
Bad
Worst

Or something like that.

There's also the fact that a +2 tiers PrC turns a tier 3 into a tier 2, not a tier 3 into a tier 5.

IF I have several days off in a row to fully and categorically complete my book collection, I'll see about doing a massive thread for all of this, kind of like a quick and dirty build list for as many base and prestige classes and combos thereof as possible.  And if possible, put the top of the food chain in the first reply post (i.e. Druid/Planar Shepherd, SCM, Incantatrix, etc.).
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: zook1shoe June 20, 2011, 05:56:22 AM
Zhentarim Skymage is a +2
: Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
: Kethrian September 13, 2011, 08:49:23 AM
I noticed you don't have any of the PrCs from Dragon Magic.  I just thought they might be a nice addition to your list, when you get around to evaluating them.