Book of Exalted Deeds | +0.27 |
Book of Vile Darkness | +0.53 |
Champions of Ruin | +0 |
Champions of Valor | +0.25 |
Cityscape | +1 |
Complete Adventurer | -0.04 |
Complete Arcane | -0.05 |
Complete Divine | +0.25 |
Complete Mage | +0.55 |
Complete Psionics | +0.44 |
Complete Scoundrel | +0.43 |
Complete Warrior | +0.11 |
Draconomicon | -0.46 |
Drow of the Underdark | -1 |
Dungeon Master's Guide | -0.38 |
Eberron Campaign Setting | +0.63 |
Expanded Psionics Handbook | +0.1 |
Expedition to the Demonweb Pits | +1 |
Faiths and Pantheons | +0.11 |
Faiths of Eberron | +2 |
Frostburn | +0.36 |
Heroes of Battle | +0.25 |
Heroes of Horror | +0.5 |
Libris Mortis | -1 |
Lords of Madness | +0.71 |
Lost Empires of Faerûn | +0 |
Magic of Incarnum | -0.17 |
Miniatures Handbook | -0.29 |
Planar Handbook | -0.11 |
Player's Guide to Faerûn | -0.14 |
Races of Destiny | +0.29 |
Races of Eberron | +0.78 |
Races of Faerûn | +0.29 |
Races of Stone | +0.44 |
Races of the Dragon | +0.4 |
Races of the Wild | +0.5 |
Sandstorm | +0.33 |
Serpent Kingdoms | +0 |
Shattered Gates of Slaughtergarde | +0 |
Shining South | +0.22 |
Stormwrack | -0.14 |
Tome of Battle | +0.13 |
Tome of Magic | +0.25 |
Unapproachable East | +0.55 |
Underdark | +0.22 |
Anarchic Initiate | CPsi |
Anima Mage | ToM |
Champion of Gwynharwyf | BoED |
Disciple of Dispater | BoVD |
Dreadmaster | F&P |
Dweomerkeeper | CD |
Emissaries of Barachiel | BoED |
Halruuan Elder | ShS |
Hulking Hurler | CW |
Incantatrix | PGtF |
Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil | CA |
Legendary Captain (if naval combat is required) | Stormwrack |
Moonspeaker (non-Druid entry) | RoE |
Planar Shepherd | FoE |
Rainbow Servant (Warmage entry) | CD |
Runescarred Berserker | UE |
Sacred Exorcist (non-Cleric entry) | CD |
Sentinel of Bharrai | BoED |
Shadowcraft Mage | RoS |
Soul Eater | BoVD |
Soulbow | CPsi |
Sublime Chord | CA |
Tainted Scholar | HoH |
Telflammar Shadowlord | UE |
Thrall of Juiblex | BoVD |
Thrallherd | XPH |
Ur-Priest | CD |
Void Disciple | CD |
Walker in the Waste | Sandstorm |
War Hulk | Mini |
Warshaper (non-casting entry) | CW |
Abjurant Champion | CM |
Abolisher | LoM |
Acolyte of the Ego | ToM |
Aglarondan Griffonrider | UE |
Anointed Knight | BoED |
Arachnomancer (Monk capitalizing on poison) | Und |
Arcane Heirophant | RotW |
Ashworm Dragoon | Sandstorm |
Assassin | DMG |
Atavist | RoE |
Auspician | F&P |
Bear Warrior | CW |
Beloved of Valarian | BoED |
Blackguard | DMG |
Blade Bravo | RoS |
Bloodclaw Master | ToB |
Bloodhound | CW |
Cabinet Trickster | RoE |
Cancer Mage (w/o abuse) | BoVD |
Cavalier | CW |
Cavelord | Und |
Celestial Mystic | BoED |
Chameleon | RoD |
Champion of Corellon Larethian | RotW |
Chaotician | PlH |
Church Inquisitor | CD |
Cognition Thief (Ardent or Wilder entry) | PGtF |
Contemplative | CD |
Cragtop Archer | RoS |
Crinti Shadow Marauder | ShS |
Daggerspell Shaper | CAdv |
Darkrunner | LoM |
Death Delver | HoH |
Deepwarden | RoS |
Defender of Sealtiel | BoED |
Demonwrecker | EDP |
Dervish | CW |
Diabolist | BoVD |
Disciple of Asmodeus | BoVD |
Disciple of Baalzebul | BoVD |
Disciple of Mephistopheles | BoVD |
Disciple of the Eye | RotD |
Disciple of the Word | ToM |
Disciple of Thrym | Frostburn |
Divine Crusader | CD |
Divine Oracle | CD |
Divine Prankster | RoS |
Doomguide | F&P |
Dragon Devotee (non-caster entry or 1 lvl dip) | RotD |
Dragonmark Heir | ECS |
Dragonstalker (Dragon heavy game) | Drc |
Dread Fang of Lolth | DotU |
Dread Pirate | CAdv |
Drow Judicator | Und |
Drunken Master | CW |
Earth Dreamer | RoS |
Eldeen Ranger | ECS |
Elemental Warrior | PlH |
Enlightened Fist | CA |
Eternal Blade | ToB |
Exotic Weapons Master | CW |
Eye of Horus-Re | PGtF |
Fatemaker (worse for bards) | PlH |
Fatespinner | CA |
Fiend-Blooded | HoH |
Fist of Raziel | BoED |
Fleshwarper | LoM |
Fochlucan Lyrist (evasion gained w/o CL loss) | CAdv |
Frenzied Berserker | CW |
Frost Mage (Sorc entry) | Frostburn |
Ghost Faced Killer | CAdv |
Grey Guard | CS |
Halfling Outrider | CW |
Hammer of Moradin | PGtF |
Hathran | PGtF |
Heartwarden | F&P |
Heir of Siberys | ECS |
Holy Liberator | CD |
Holy Scourge | CM |
Illumine Soul | CPsi |
Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil (AMF penetrates veils houserule) | CA |
Ironsoul Forgemaster | MoI |
Jade Phoenix Mage | ToB |
Jaunter | EDP |
Justicar of Tyr | PGtF |
Keeper of the Cerulean Sign | LoM |
Knight of Sacred Seal | ToM |
Knight of the Chalice | CW |
Knight Protector | CW |
Legendary Commando | HoB |
Leviathan Hunter | Stormwrack |
Lion of Talisid | BoED |
Loredelver | RoD |
Loremaster | DMG |
Lyric Thaumaturge | CM |
Mage of the Arcane Order | CA |
Magelord (evasion gained w/o CL loss) | LEoF |
Magical Trickster | CS |
Malconvoker | CS |
Master Inquisitive | ECS |
Master of Many Forms (Ranger entry) | CAdv |
Master of Masks (Spellthief entry) | CS |
Master of Shadow | ToM |
Master Specialist | CM |
Master Thrower | CW |
Menacing Brute | RoD |
Moonspeaker (Druid) | RoE |
Mortal Hunter | BoVD |
Mountebank | CS |
Nentyar Hunter | UE |
Nightmare Spinner | CM |
Nightsong Enforcer | CAdv |
Noctumancer | ToM |
Olin Gisir | LEoF |
Orc Warlord | RoF |
Pale Master | LM |
Primeval | Frostburn |
Prophet of Erathaol | BoED |
Psibond Agent | CS |
Psionic Fist | XPH |
Quori Nightmare | RoE |
Radiant Servant of Pelor | CD |
Raumathari Battlemage | UE |
Recaster | RoE |
Rimefire Witch | Frostburn |
Risen Martyr | BoED |
Ruby Knight Vindicator | ToB |
Runesmith | RoS |
Sacred Exorcist (Cleric entry) | CD |
Sacred Fist | CD |
Sanctified Mind | LoM |
Sand Shaper (Sorc entry) | Sandstorm |
Scion of Dantalion | ToM |
Scion of Tem-Et-Nu | Sandstorm |
Scorpion Heritor | Sandstorm |
Serene Guardian | Shattered Gates of Slaughtergarde |
Shadow Sun Ninja | ToB |
Shadowbane Inquisitor (Blackguard entry) | CAdv |
Shadowbane Stalker | CAdv |
Shou Disciple | UE |
Singer of Concordance | RotD |
Skullclan Hunter | Mini |
Skypledged | RotW |
Slayer | XPH |
Slayer of Domiel | BoED |
Spellguard of Silverymoon | PGtF |
Spellwarp Sniper | CS |
Stoneblessed | RoS |
Suel Arcanamach | CA |
Temple Raider of Olidammara (non-Rogue entry) | CD |
Thaumaturgist | DMG |
Thayan Gladiator | CR |
Thrall of Demogoron | BoVD |
Topaz Guardian (gish entry) | LoM |
Triadic Knight | CV |
Umbral Disciple | MoI |
Unseen Seer | CM |
Urban Savant (non-Bard entry) | Cityscape |
Urban Soul | RoD |
Vassal of Bahamut | BoED |
Vengeance Knight | CR |
Virtuoso | CAdv |
War Mind (non-pure psi entries) | XPH |
War Weaver | HoB |
Warforged Juggernaut | ECS |
Warrior of Darkness | BoVD |
Warrior Skald | RoF |
Wearer of Purple | F&P |
Weretouched Master | ECS |
Whisperknife | RotW |
Wild Plains Outrider | CAdv |
Wild Soul | CM |
Wildrunner | RotW |
Windwalker | F&P |
Winterhaunt of Iborighu | Frostburn |
Witch Slayer (non-caster entry) | ToM |
Zerth Cenobite | CPsi |
Alienist | CA |
Animal Lord | CAdv |
Arachne | F&P |
Arcane Devotee | PGtF |
Archmage | DMG |
Ardent Dilettante | PlH |
Astral Dancer | PlH |
Avenging Executioner | CS |
Battle Trickster | CS |
Battlerager | RoF |
Battlesmith | RoS |
Beastmaster | CAdv |
Black Blood Hunter | PGtF |
Blood Magus | CA |
Breachgnome | RoF |
Child of Night | ToM |
Cipher Adept | PlH |
Cloud Ancorite | Frostburn |
Combat Trapsmith | CS |
Consecrated Harrier | CD |
Corrupt Avenger | HoH |
Cultist of the Shattered Peak | LEoF |
Daggerspell Mage | CAdv |
Dark Scholar | Shattered Gates of Slaughtergarde |
Darkwood Stalker | CW |
Deep Diviner | Und |
Deepstone Sentinel | ToB |
Demonbinder | DotU |
Disciple of Mammon | BoVD |
Divine Champion | PGtF |
Divine Disciple | PGtF |
Divine Seeker | PGtF |
Dracolexi | RotD |
Dracolyte | Drc |
Dragonrider | Drc |
Dragonslayer (Dragon heavy game, except as 1 lvl dip) | Drc |
Dragonsong lyrist | Drc |
Dread Commando | HoB |
Dread Witch | HoH |
Dwarven Defender | DMG |
Ectopic Adept (only if CPsi nerfs are used already) | CPsi |
Eldritch Disciple | CM |
Eldritch Knight | DMG |
Eldritch Theurge | CM |
Elemental Savant | CA |
Elocater (PsiWar or PsiRogue entry) | XPH |
Exorcist of the Silver Flame | ECS |
Eye of Gruumsh | CW |
Fang of Sseth | SK |
Fiendbinder | ToM |
Flayerspawn Psychic | CPsi |
Fortune's Friend | CS |
Frost Mage (Wizard entry) | Frostburn |
Frost Rager | Frostburn |
Geometer | CA |
Gnome Giant-Slayer | CW |
Goldeye | F&P |
Goliath Liberator | RoS |
Great Rift Deep Defender | ShS |
Great Rift Skyguard | RoF |
Hand of the Adama | ShS |
Highland Stalker | CAdv |
Imaskari Vengeance Taker | Und |
Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries | Drc |
Invisible Blade | CW |
Iron Mind (Ardent entry) | RoS |
Jordain Vizier | ShS |
Justicar | CW |
Justice of Weald and Woe | CR |
Kensai | CW |
Knight of Iron Glacier | Frostburn |
Knight of the Flying Hunt | CV |
Knight of the Pearl | Stormwrack |
Knight of the Weave | CV |
Lord of Tides (Cleric Entry) | Sandstorm |
Luiren Marchwarden | ShS |
Maester | CAdv |
Magelord (regular entry) | LEoF |
Maiden of Pain | PGtF |
Maquar Crusader | ShS |
Master of Masks (general entry) | CS |
Master of the Unseen Hand (ghost or similar) | CW |
Moonsea Skysentinel | CV |
Morninglord of Lathander | PGtF |
Nar Demonbinder | UE |
Nature's Warrior | CW |
Nightcloak | F&P |
Occult Slayer | CW |
Peregrine Runner | RoS |
Pious Templar (except for 1 level dips) | CD |
Platinum Knight (Dragon heavy game) | Drc |
Prime Underdark Guide | Und |
Psion Uncarnate | XPH |
Purple Dragon Knight | CW |
Ravager | CW |
Reachrunner | RoE |
Red Wizard | DMG |
Reforged | RoE |
Ronin | CW |
Ruathar | RotW |
Runecaster | PGtF |
Sapphire Hierarch | MoI |
Scar Enforcer | RoD |
Scourge Maiden | ShS |
Seeker of the Misty Isle | CD |
Serpent Slayer | SK |
Shaaryan Hunter | PGtF |
Shade Hunter | CR |
Shadow Adept | PGtF |
Shadow Thief of Amn | PGtF |
Shadowbane Inquisitor | CAdv |
Shadowblade | ToM |
Shadowcrafter | Und |
Shadowsmith | ToM |
Silverstar | F&P |
Soulcaster | MoI |
Spellcarved Soldier | RoE |
Spellsinger | RoF |
Spinemeld Warrior (non-incarnum entry) | MoI |
Spymaster | CAdv |
Stonedeath Assassin | RoS |
Stonelord | CW |
Stonespeaker Guardian | RoS |
Storm Disciple (Ardent dip entry) | CPsi |
Stormcaster | Stormwrack |
Stormlord | CD |
Stormsinger | Frostburn |
Stormtalon (except for 1 level dips) | RotW |
Streetfighter | CAdv |
Strifeleader | F&P |
Sword Dancer | F&P |
Sword of Righteousness | BoED |
Talontar Blightlord | UE |
Tattooed Monk | CW |
Techsmith | F&P |
Temple Raider of Olidammara (Rogue entry) | CD |
Thayan Knight | CW |
Thayan Slaver | UE |
Thrall of Orcus | BoVD |
Totem Rager | MoI |
Twisted Lord | Shattered Gates of Slaughtergarde |
Ultimate Magus (w/o fast entry tricks) | CM |
Uncanny Trickster | CS |
Vermin Keeper | Und |
Vigilante | CAdv |
War Chanter | CW |
War Mind (pure PsiWar entry) | XPH |
Warchief | Mini |
Warshaper (casting entry) | CW |
Warsling Sniper | RoF |
Waveservant | F&P |
Wild Mage | CA |
Witch Slayer (gish entry) | ToM |
Zhentarim Spy | PGtF |
Apostle of Peace (w/o VoP) | BoED |
Arachnomancer | DotU |
Arcane Trickster | DMG |
Argent Savant | CA |
Black Blood Cultist | CR |
Black Flame Zealot | CD |
Bladesinger | CW |
Bloodstorm Blade (except 2 level dips) | ToB |
Cavestalker (Ranger entry) | DotU |
Celebrant of Sharess | PGtF |
Cerebremancer | XPH |
Cloaked Dancer | CS |
Cognition Thief (other entry) | PGtF |
Combat Medic | HoB |
Cryokineticist | Frostburn |
Dark Hunter | CW |
Dawncaller | RoS |
Death's Chosen | LM |
Demonlogist | BoVD |
Doomlord | PlH |
Dragon Disciple | DMG |
Dragon Samurai | Mini |
Dragonheart Mage | RotD |
Dragonkith | Drc |
Dragonslayer | Drc |
Dragonstalker | Drc |
Dungeon Delver | CAdv |
Durthan | UE |
Ebon Saint | CPsi |
Effigy Master | CA |
Elemental Archon | F&P |
Elocater (Psion entry) | XPH |
Enlightened Spirit | CM |
Evereskan Tomb Guardian | PGtF |
Exalted Arcanist | BoED |
Exemplar | CAdv |
Extreme Explorer | ECS |
Geomancer (varies greatly on entry) | CD |
Glorious Servitor | LEoF |
Halruuan Magehound | ShS |
Harper Agent | PGtF |
Harper Paragon | PGtF |
Havoc Mage | Mini |
Heirophant | DMG |
Hoardstealer | Drc |
Horizon Walker | DMG |
Horned Harbinger | F&P |
Hospitaler | CD |
Hunter of the Dead | CW |
Incandescent Champion | MoI |
Initiate of Pistis Sophia | BoED |
Iron Mind (non-Ardent entry) | RoS |
Kinslayer | DotU |
Lord of Tides (Druid Entry) | Sandstorm |
Luckstealer | RotW |
Martyred Champion of Ilmater | PGtF |
Master of Many Forms (Druid entry) | CAdv |
Master of Nine (unless you can get some of the feats for "free") | ToB |
Master of Radiance | LM |
Master of Shrounds | LM |
Master of the Yuirwood | UE |
Master Transmogrifist | CA |
Monk of the Long Death | PGtF |
Mystic Theurge | DMG |
Nightmask Deathbringer | CR |
Nightsong Infiltrator | CAdv |
Ocular Adept | F&P |
Order of the Bow Initiate | CW |
Outcast Champion | RoD |
Platinum Knight | Drc |
Purifier of the Hallowed Doctrine | HoH |
Pyrokineticist | XPH |
Rage Mage | CW |
Rainbow Servant (Sor/Wiz entry) | CD |
Sacred Purifier | LM |
Sand Shaper (Wiz Entry) | Sandstorm |
Scarlet Corsair (w/o capstone abuse) | Stormwrack |
Sea Witch | Stormwrack |
Shadow Sentinel | RoD |
Shadowdancer | DMG |
Shadowmind | CAdv |
Shining Blade | CD |
Skylord | BoED |
Slime Lord | PGtF |
Spellsword (except for 1 level dips) | CW |
Stalker of Kharash | BoED |
Storm Disciple (Pure Ardent entry) | CPsi |
Sunmaster | LEoF |
Swanmay | BoED |
Tactical Soldier | Mini |
Tempest | CAdv |
Tenebrous Apostate | ToM |
Thief-Acrobat | CAdv |
Thrall of Graz'zt | BoVD |
Topaz Guardian (caster entry) | LoM |
Troubadour of Stars | BoED |
Vermin Lord | BoVD |
Visionary Seeker | PlH |
Warpriest | CD |
Wayfarer Guide (except for 1 level dips) | CA |
Yathchol Webrider | Und |
Acolyte of the skin | CA |
Apostle of Peace | BoED |
Arcane Archer | DMG |
Bereft | ToM |
Blighter | CD |
Bonded Summoner | Mini |
Brimstone Speaker | ToM |
Cavestalker (Druid entry) | DotU |
Defiant | PlH |
Dirgesinger | LM |
Duelist | DMG |
Entropomancer | CD |
Evangelist | CD |
Eye of Lolth | DotU |
Fochlucan Lyrist (unless Evasion is gained without dips, then Up One Tier) | CAdv |
Forest Master | F&P |
Green Star Adept | CA |
Incarnum Blade | MoI |
Insidious Corruptor (Arcane Spellcaster entry) | DotU |
Lifedrinker | BoVD |
Master of the Unseen Hand | CW |
Metamind (w/o capstone abuse) | XPH |
Mindbender (except for 1 level dips) | CA |
Mindspy | CW |
Necrocarnate (w/o infinite essentia abuse) | MoI |
Ollam | CAdv |
Reaping Mauler | CW |
Solar Channeler | Shattered Gates of Slaughtergarde |
Spinemeld Warrior (incarnum entry) | MoI |
Talon of Tiamat | Drc |
True Necromancer | LM |
Wavekeeper | Stormwrack |
Witchborn Binder | MoI |
Wonderworker | BoED |
Yathrinshee | PGtF |
Champion of Gwynharwyf | +2 |
Emissaries of Barachiel | +2 |
Sentinel of Bharrai | +2 |
Anointed Knight | +1 |
Beloved of Valarian | +1 |
Celestial Mystic | +1 |
Defender of Sealtiel | +1 |
Fist of Raziel | +1 |
Lion of Talisid | +1 |
Prophet of Erathaol | +1 |
Risen Martyr | +1 |
Slayer of Domiel | +1 |
Vassal of Bahamut | +1 |
Sword of Righteousness | +0 |
Apostle of Peace (w/o VoP) | -1 |
Exalted Arcanist | -1 |
Initiate of Pistis Sophia | -1 |
Skylord | -1 |
Stalker of Kharash | -1 |
Swanmay | -1 |
Troubadour of Stars | -1 |
Apostle of Peace | -2 |
Wonderworker | -2 |
Disciple of Dispater | +2 |
Soul Eater | +2 |
Thrall of Juiblex | +2 |
Cancer Mage (w/o abuse) | +1 |
Diabolist | +1 |
Disciple of Asmodeus | +1 |
Disciple of Baalzebul | +1 |
Disciple of Mephistopheles | +1 |
Mortal Hunter | +1 |
Thrall of Demogoron | +1 |
Warrior of Darkness | +1 |
Disciple of Mammon | +0 |
Thrall of Orcus | +0 |
Demonlogist | -1 |
Thrall of Graz'zt | -1 |
Vermin Lord | -1 |
Lifedrinker | -2 |
Thayan Gladiator | +1 |
Vengeance Knight | +1 |
Justice of Weald and Woe | +0 |
Shade Hunter | +0 |
Black Blood Cultist | -1 |
Nightmask Deathbringer | -1 |
Triadic Knight | +1 |
Knight of the Flying Hunt | +0 |
Knight of the Weave | +0 |
Moonsea Skysentinel | +0 |
Urban Savant (non-Bard entry) | +1 |
Daggerspell Shaper | +1 |
Dread Pirate | +1 |
Fochlucan Lyrist (evasion gained w/o CL loss) | +1 |
Ghost Faced Killer | +1 |
Master of Many Forms (Ranger entry) | +1 |
Nightsong Enforcer | +1 |
Shadowbane Inquisitor (Blackguard entry) | +1 |
Shadowbane Stalker | +1 |
Virtuoso | +1 |
Wild Plains Outrider | +1 |
Animal Lord | +0 |
Beastmaster | +0 |
Daggerspell Mage | +0 |
Highland Stalker | +0 |
Maester | +0 |
Shadowbane Inquisitor | +0 |
Spymaster | +0 |
Streetfighter | +0 |
Vigilante | +0 |
Dungeon Delver | -1 |
Exemplar | -1 |
Master of Many Forms (Druid entry) | -1 |
Nightsong Infiltrator | -1 |
Shadowmind | -1 |
Tempest | -1 |
Thief-Acrobat | -1 |
Fochlucan Lyrist (unless Evasion is gained without dips, then Up One Tier) | -2 |
Ollam | -2 |
Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil | +2 |
Sublime Chord | +2 |
Enlightened Fist | +1 |
Fatespinner | +1 |
Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil (AMF penetrates veils houserule) | +1 |
Mage of the Arcane Order | +1 |
Suel Arcanamach | +1 |
Alienist | +0 |
Blood Magus | +0 |
Elemental Savant | +0 |
Geometer | +0 |
Wild Mage | +0 |
Argent Savant | -1 |
Effigy Master | -1 |
Master Transmogrifist | -1 |
Wayfarer Guide (except for 1 level dips) | -1 |
Acolyte of the skin | -2 |
Green Star Adept | -2 |
Mindbender (except for 1 level dips) | -2 |
Dweomerkeeper | +2 |
Rainbow Servant (Warmage entry) | +2 |
Sacred Exorcist (non-Cleric entry) | +2 |
Ur-Priest | +2 |
Void Disciple | +2 |
Church Inquisitor | +1 |
Contemplative | +1 |
Divine Crusader | +1 |
Divine Oracle | +1 |
Holy Liberator | +1 |
Radiant Servant of Pelor | +1 |
Sacred Exorcist (Cleric entry) | +1 |
Sacred Fist | +1 |
Temple Raider of Olidammara (non-Rogue entry) | +1 |
Consecrated Harrier | +0 |
Pious Templar (except for 1 level dips) | +0 |
Seeker of the Misty Isle | +0 |
Stormlord | +0 |
Temple Raider of Olidammara (Rogue entry) | +0 |
Black Flame Zealot | -1 |
Geomancer (varies greatly on entry) | -1 |
Hospitaler | -1 |
Rainbow Servant (Sor/Wiz entry) | -1 |
Shining Blade | -1 |
Warpriest | -1 |
Blighter | -2 |
Entropomancer | -2 |
Evangelist | -2 |
Abjurant Champion | +1 |
Holy Scourge | +1 |
Lyric Thaumaturge | +1 |
Master Specialist | +1 |
Nightmare Spinner | +1 |
Unseen Seer | +1 |
Wild Soul | +1 |
Eldritch Disciple | +0 |
Eldritch Theurge | +0 |
Ultimate Magus (w/o fast entry tricks) | +0 |
Enlightened Spirit | -1 |
Anarchic Initiate | +2 |
Soulbow | +2 |
Illumine Soul | +1 |
Zerth Cenobite | +1 |
Ectopic Adept (only if CPsi nerfs are used already) | +0 |
Flayerspawn Psychic | +0 |
Storm Disciple (Ardent dip entry) | +0 |
Ebon Saint | -1 |
Storm Disciple (Pure Ardent entry) | -1 |
Grey Guard | +1 |
Magical Trickster | +1 |
Malconvoker | +1 |
Master of Masks (Spellthief entry) | +1 |
Mountebank | +1 |
Psibond Agent | +1 |
Spellwarp Sniper | +1 |
Avenging Executioner | +0 |
Battle Trickster | +0 |
Combat Trapsmith | +0 |
Fortune's Friend | +0 |
Master of Masks (general entry) | +0 |
Uncanny Trickster | +0 |
Cloaked Dancer | -1 |
Hulking Hurler | +2 |
Warshaper (non-casting entry) | +2 |
Bear Warrior | +1 |
Bloodhound | +1 |
Cavalier | +1 |
Dervish | +1 |
Drunken Master | +1 |
Exotic Weapons Master | +1 |
Frenzied Berserker | +1 |
Halfling Outrider | +1 |
Knight of the Chalice | +1 |
Knight Protector | +1 |
Master Thrower | +1 |
Darkwood Stalker | +0 |
Eye of Gruumsh | +0 |
Gnome Giant-Slayer | +0 |
Invisible Blade | +0 |
Justicar | +0 |
Kensai | +0 |
Master of the Unseen Hand (ghost or similar) | +0 |
Nature's Warrior | +0 |
Occult Slayer | +0 |
Purple Dragon Knight | +0 |
Ravager | +0 |
Ronin | +0 |
Stonelord | +0 |
Tattooed Monk | +0 |
Thayan Knight | +0 |
War Chanter | +0 |
Warshaper (casting entry) | +0 |
Bladesinger | -1 |
Dark Hunter | -1 |
Hunter of the Dead | -1 |
Order of the Bow Initiate | -1 |
Rage Mage | -1 |
Spellsword (except for 1 level dips) | -1 |
Master of the Unseen Hand | -2 |
Mindspy | -2 |
Reaping Mauler | -2 |
Dragonstalker (Dragon heavy game) | +1 |
Dracolyte | +0 |
Dragonrider | +0 |
Dragonslayer (Dragon heavy game, except as 1 lvl dip) | +0 |
Dragonsong lyrist | +0 |
Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries | +0 |
Platinum Knight (Dragon heavy game) | +0 |
Dragonkith | -1 |
Dragonslayer | -1 |
Dragonstalker | -1 |
Hoardstealer | -1 |
Platinum Knight | -1 |
Talon of Tiamat | -2 |
Dread Fang of Lolth | +1 |
Demonbinder | +0 |
Arachnomancer | -1 |
Cavestalker (Ranger entry) | -1 |
Kinslayer | -1 |
Cavestalker (Druid entry) | -2 |
Eye of Lolth | -2 |
Insidious Corruptor (Arcane Spellcaster entry) | -2 |
Assassin | +1 |
Blackguard | +1 |
Loremaster | +1 |
Thaumaturgist | +1 |
Archmage | +0 |
Dwarven Defender | +0 |
Eldritch Knight | +0 |
Red Wizard | +0 |
Arcane Trickster | -1 |
Dragon Disciple | -1 |
Heirophant | -1 |
Horizon Walker | -1 |
Mystic Theurge | -1 |
Shadowdancer | -1 |
Arcane Archer | -2 |
Duelist | -2 |
Dragonmark Heir | +1 |
Eldeen Ranger | +1 |
Heir of Siberys | +1 |
Master Inquisitive | +1 |
Warforged Juggernaut | +1 |
Weretouched Master | +1 |
Exorcist of the Silver Flame | +0 |
Extreme Explorer | -1 |
Thrallherd | +2 |
Psionic Fist | +1 |
Slayer | +1 |
War Mind (non-pure psi entries) | +1 |
Elocater (PsiWar or PsiRogue entry) | +0 |
Psion Uncarnate | +0 |
War Mind (pure PsiWar entry) | +0 |
Cerebremancer | -1 |
Elocater (Psion entry) | -1 |
Metamind (w/o capstone abuse) | -2 |
Pyrokineticist | -1 |
Demonwrecker | +1 |
Jaunter | +1 |
Dreadmaster | +2 |
Auspician | +1 |
Doomguide | +1 |
Heartwarden | +1 |
Wearer of Purple | +1 |
Windwalker | +1 |
Arachne | +0 |
Goldeye | +0 |
Nightcloak | +0 |
Silverstar | +0 |
Strifeleader | +0 |
Sword Dancer | +0 |
Techsmith | +0 |
Waveservant | +0 |
Elemental Archon | -1 |
Horned Harbinger | -1 |
Ocular Adept | -1 |
Forest Master | -2 |
Planar Shepherd | +2 |
Disciple of Thrym | +1 |
Frost Mage (Sorc entry) | +1 |
Primeval | +1 |
Rimefire Witch | +1 |
Winterhaunt of Iborighu | +1 |
Cloud Ancorite | +0 |
Frost Mage (Wizard entry) | +0 |
Frost Rager | +0 |
Knight of Iron Glacier | +0 |
Stormsinger | +0 |
Cryokineticist | -1 |
Legendary Commando | +1 |
War Weaver | +1 |
Dread Commando | +0 |
Combat Medic | -1 |
Tainted Scholar | +2 |
Death Delver | +1 |
Fiend-Blooded | +1 |
Corrupt Avenger | +0 |
Dread Witch | +0 |
Purifier of the Hallowed Doctrine | -1 |
Pale Master | +1 |
Death's Chosen | -1 |
Master of Radiance | -1 |
Master of Shrounds | -1 |
Sacred Purifier | -1 |
Dirgesinger | -2 |
True Necromancer | -2 |
Abolisher | +1 |
Darkrunner | +1 |
Fleshwarper | +1 |
Keeper of the Cerulean Sign | +1 |
Sanctified Mind | +1 |
Topaz Guardian (gish entry) | +1 |
Topaz Guardian (caster entry) | -1 |
Magelord (evasion gained w/o CL loss) | +1 |
Olin Gisir | +1 |
Cultist of the Shattered Peak | +0 |
Magelord (regular entry) | +0 |
Glorious Servitor | -1 |
Sunmaster | -1 |
Ironsoul Forgemaster | +1 |
Umbral Disciple | +1 |
Sapphire Hierarch | +0 |
Soulcaster | +0 |
Spinemeld Warrior (non-incarnum entry) | +0 |
Totem Rager | +0 |
Incandescent Champion | -1 |
Incarnum Blade | -2 |
Necrocarnate (w/o infinite essentia abuse) | -2 |
Spinemeld Warrior (incarnum entry) | -2 |
Witchborn Binder | -2 |
War Hulk | +2 |
Skullclan Hunter | +1 |
Warchief | +0 |
Dragon Samurai | -1 |
Havoc Mage | -1 |
Tactical Soldier | -1 |
Bonded Summoner | -2 |
Chaotician | +1 |
Elemental Warrior | +1 |
Fatemaker (worse for bards) | +1 |
Ardent Dilettante | +0 |
Astral Dancer | +0 |
Cipher Adept | +0 |
Doomlord | -1 |
Visionary Seeker | -1 |
Defiant | -2 |
Incantatrix | +2 |
Cognition Thief (Ardent or Wilder entry) | +1 |
Eye of Horus-Re | +1 |
Hammer of Moradin | +1 |
Hathran | +1 |
Justicar of Tyr | +1 |
Spellguard of Silverymoon | +1 |
Arcane Devotee | +0 |
Black Blood Hunter | +0 |
Divine Champion | +0 |
Divine Disciple | +0 |
Divine Seeker | +0 |
Maiden of Pain | +0 |
Morninglord of Lathander | +0 |
Runecaster | +0 |
Shaaryan Hunter | +0 |
Shadow Adept | +0 |
Shadow Thief of Amn | +0 |
Zhentarim Spy | +0 |
Celebrant of Sharess | -1 |
Cognition Thief (other entry) | -1 |
Evereskan Tomb Guardian | -1 |
Harper Agent | -1 |
Harper Paragon | -1 |
Martyred Champion of Ilmater | -1 |
Monk of the Long Death | -1 |
Slime Lord | -1 |
Yathrinshee | -2 |
Chameleon | +1 |
Loredelver | +1 |
Menacing Brute | +1 |
Urban Soul | +1 |
Scar Enforcer | +0 |
Outcast Champion | -1 |
Shadow Sentinel | -1 |
Moonspeaker (non-Druid entry) | +2 |
Atavist | +1 |
Cabinet Trickster | +1 |
Moonspeaker (Druid) | +1 |
Quori Nightmare | +1 |
Recaster | +1 |
Reachrunner | +0 |
Reforged | +0 |
Spellcarved Soldier | +0 |
Orc Warlord | +1 |
Warrior Skald | +1 |
Battlerager | +0 |
Breachgnome | +0 |
Great Rift Skyguard | +0 |
Spellsinger | +0 |
Warsling Sniper | +0 |
Shadowcraft Mage | +2 |
Blade Bravo | +1 |
Cragtop Archer | +1 |
Deepwarden | +1 |
Divine Prankster | +1 |
Earth Dreamer | +1 |
Runesmith | +1 |
Stoneblessed | +1 |
Battlesmith | +0 |
Goliath Liberator | +0 |
Iron Mind (Ardent entry) | +0 |
Peregrine Runner | +0 |
Stonedeath Assassin | +0 |
Stonespeaker Guardian | +0 |
Dawncaller | -1 |
Iron Mind (non-Ardent entry) | -1 |
Disciple of the Eye | +1 |
Dragon Devotee (non-caster entry or 1 lvl dip) | +1 |
Singer of Concordance | +1 |
Dracolexi | +0 |
Dragonheart Mage | -1 |
Arcane Heirophant | +1 |
Champion of Corellon Larethian | +1 |
Skypledged | +1 |
Whisperknife | +1 |
Wildrunner | +1 |
Ruathar | +0 |
Stormtalon (except for 1 level dips) | +0 |
Luckstealer | -1 |
Walker in the Waste | +2 |
Ashworm Dragoon | +1 |
Sand Shaper (Sorc entry) | +1 |
Scion of Tem-Et-Nu | +1 |
Scorpion Heritor | +1 |
Lord of Tides (Cleric Entry) | +0 |
Lord of Tides (Druid Entry) | -1 |
Sand Shaper (Wiz Entry) | -1 |
Fang of Sseth | +0 |
Serpent Slayer | +0 |
Serene Guardian | +1 |
Dark Scholar | +0 |
Twisted Lord | +0 |
Solar Channeler | -2 |
Halruuan Elder | +2 |
Crinti Shadow Marauder | +1 |
Great Rift Deep Defender | +0 |
Hand of the Adama | +0 |
Jordain Vizier | +0 |
Luiren Marchwarden | +0 |
Maquar Crusader | +0 |
Scourge Maiden | +0 |
Halruuan Magehound | -1 |
Legendary Captain (if naval combat is required) | +2 |
Leviathan Hunter | +1 |
Knight of the Pearl | +0 |
Stormcaster | +0 |
Scarlet Corsair (w/o capstone abuse) | -1 |
Sea Witch | -1 |
Wavekeeper | -2 |
Bloodclaw Master | +1 |
Eternal Blade | +1 |
Jade Phoenix Mage | +1 |
Ruby Knight Vindicator | +1 |
Shadow Sun Ninja | +1 |
Deepstone Sentinel | +0 |
Bloodstorm Blade (except 2 level dips) | -1 |
Master of Nine (unless you can get some of the feats for "free") | -1 |
Anima Mage | +2 |
Acolyte of the Ego | +1 |
Disciple of the Word | +1 |
Knight of Sacred Seal | +1 |
Master of Shadow | +1 |
Noctumancer | +1 |
Scion of Dantalion | +1 |
Witch Slayer (non-caster entry) | +1 |
Child of Night | +0 |
Fiendbinder | +0 |
Shadowblade | +0 |
Shadowsmith | +0 |
Witch Slayer (gish entry) | +0 |
Tenebrous Apostate | -1 |
Bereft | -2 |
Brimstone Speaker | -2 |
Runescarred Berserker | +2 |
Telflammar Shadowlord | +2 |
Aglarondan Griffonrider | +1 |
Nentyar Hunter | +1 |
Raumathari Battlemage | +1 |
Shou Disciple | +1 |
Nar Demonbinder | +0 |
Talontar Blightlord | +0 |
Thayan Slaver | +0 |
Durthan | -1 |
Master of the Yuirwood | -1 |
Arachnomancer (Monk capitalizing on poison) | +1 |
Cavelord | +1 |
Drow Judicator | +1 |
Deep Diviner | +0 |
Imaskari Vengeance Taker | +0 |
Prime Underdark Guide | +0 |
Shadowcrafter | +0 |
Vermin Keeper | +0 |
Yathchol Webrider | -1 |
Take the dungeon with you. It's what being a stronghold builder is all about.
Well, duh. And be a Hathran as well, and have a cohort who's a diplomat from Rasheman set up the place as his embassy.Take the dungeon with you. It's what being a stronghold builder is all about.
For extra fun be a Tomb Warden too, and have the dungeon also be a tomb.
Take the dungeon with you. It's what being a stronghold builder is all about.Well nothing says that you can't have a new dungeon or more than one dungeon at a time. So you could acquire a new dungeon "on the fly". Like Gandulf during the siege of Gondor or something. The race requirements is the only tricky part.
As a suggestion: Put the logical entry class you considered for the evaluation as an entry in the sorted tables. Or even make another table based on entry classes.Problem - sometimes the logical entry is specific, and sometimes it's general, and sometimes it's complicated. Ghost Faced Killer is compared to "Ninja", but Suel Arcanamach is compared to "any non-caster", and War Mind is compared to "multiclassed psi / non-psi". I don't see an easy way to sort these things.
:lmao We should totally work this into the "Death of an Artist (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?board=81.0)" game somehow.Well, duh. And be a Hathran as well, and have a cohort who's a diplomat from Rasheman set up the place as his embassy.Take the dungeon with you. It's what being a stronghold builder is all about.
For extra fun be a Tomb Warden too, and have the dungeon also be a tomb.
It's not enough for you to BE the ship, huh?:lmao We should totally work this into the "Death of an Artist (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?board=81.0)" game somehow.Well, duh. And be a Hathran as well, and have a cohort who's a diplomat from Rasheman set up the place as his embassy.Take the dungeon with you. It's what being a stronghold builder is all about.
For extra fun be a Tomb Warden too, and have the dungeon also be a tomb.
I might be even tempted to drop solar channeler down to -2, since you lose three levels of casting, and gain nothing of value.I'll have to take your word for it, I guess. Please do a post in Gr1lledcheese's thread, for all of us who don't have that book.
Your class features lets you transform into something that's less powerful. Oh, and you can't use your magic items. And it costs a turn attempt per minute.
Seriously, there's no reason why you'd want to take it.
Shadowsun Ninja should be either +0 or +1 (Dmna's Monk builds only). +0 because no one in their right mind uses the capstone, but the rest of the class features are decent (especially the healing and Darkness ability), +1 because an optimized Monk can deal a shit ton of Negative and Positive energy with each attack. Any build that can deal 12d8+Str+Wis negative energy damage per hit and then turn around and heal an ally equal to the negative energy damage dealt is not a -1 PrC.Will get back to you with the original rationale for this class, if any.
I actually disagree about the Initiate of Pistis Sophia:I want consensus on this first. Apostle of Peace is down so much because of its vows, iirc. Depending on which vows those are, it may be very limiting. I'd like others to state their opinion on this, though.
This class stacks the monk AC bonus, the unarmed strike damage, the flurry of blows, the speed and the ki strike progression (so that your ki strike could still be considered adamantine). Yes, a lot of Monk PrCs advance most monk abilities (AC bonus, unarmed strike, flurry, speed etc.) but not all advance the ki strike progression.
So, if a Monk multiclassed into Initiate of Pistis Sophia by 16 level (he can enter the class at 6) he could lose wholeness of body (which good but could easily be taken with one more monk level), diamond body, diamond soul, quivering palm, tongue of the sun of moon (while a nice ability fluff-wise, it's not that important if you're not the party face), empty body, perfect self, timeless body and the slow fall progression (but who cares about slow fall?), he could still get improved evasion and he would instead get detect evil at will (handy but not great of course), a smite attack (not so useful though), electricity resistance (not so big but still good), uncanny and improved uncanny dodge (always good in my book), celestial transformation (outsider (native) type and DR 10/evil) and 4 bonus feats (Fist of the Heavens and 3 sacred vows).
If you make the math it actually trades 8 class features for 10 class features (3 bonus sacred vows among them). Yes, sacred vows are restrictive but they give a lot of bonuses as well so if you're effectively planning on turning your Monk into a celestial that's the best way to do it. Also, if you wanted to take sacred vows with your Monk, this PrC could help you being less feat-intensive and save some space for feats like Touch of Golden Ice ;)
Overally, I believe that it is in no way a -1 PrC. I think that it's in the borders of weak +1 to strong +0.
I'd put the Spellguard of Silverymoon at +1 at least, as it progresses Metamagic faster than a straight Wizard or Sorcerer, and also gives an Archmage High Arcana (+1 Spell Power) for free, and none of that ties to the mythal. Actually, nothing in the class save the token ties it to the mythal, and if it's in backstory, it's definitely +1 at least, IMHO.I tend to agree but will look at the specs of the class in a minute. edit: +1, I think. Low in that tier if you actually have to teleport back every week to do your 'duty', but high if it's in your backstory or you're in silverymoon all the time anyways.
I want consensus on this first. Apostle of Peace is down so much because of its vows, iirc. Depending on which vows those are, it may be very limiting. I'd like others to state their opinion on this, though.
Will get back to you with the original rationale for this class, if any.
edit: There wasn't any. I'm seeing full IL advancement and a little less than half maneuvers/stances advancement. I'm not seeing why you wouldn't use the capstone ability (making sure to be immune to con damage for few rounds), since it's 1/day. It's like a soul eater dip, only for 1min/day. The abilities are all weak, as far as I can see, though. The negative/positive energy attacks require a standard action each and can't be used more than once per turn, or the same ability on two consecutive rounds. I'm not at all seeing this worth +0.
Renegade mastermaker: +1 tier. Only progresses casting/infusions 8/10s, IIRC, but for a gish it's pretty awesome.I'd like someone to comment on this.
You see, you can buy max HP with this class at 10 gp each. 5 gp, if you craft them yourself, and since you're required to have the feats, why not?
I'd like to contest Ebon Saint.On this one even more.
It's Dire Augs are strickly better than the lurk entry's augmentations, it even gives you a no restrictions alter form, which would make this a +0 or +1.
I would nominate Cognition Thief for +2 since you can use it as a dip to get schism, mindlink (preq for the great thrallherd) or take it all the way for the game breaking psy chiurguery.No. Dips don't count, thrallherd can be accessed with EK and psi chirurgy is better when someone else uses it and is also accessible through EK. A PrC that loses 4 ML almost per definition can't be +2. We've mulled over this class before, but unless you can reach consensus here (i.e. I'm not fighting this one out with you), I won't move a class into +2-territory just because you say so.
Fewer attacks per round is a concern, but so is the damage type. I've never heard of any creature that resists negative energy damage (except undead), while the number of creatures that resist bludgeoning damage is very, very high.I understand that, but I'm thinking this is a lot better if you're just dipping the class. If there's some evidence that this class is worth taking to 5th/6th level (although when you're that far in you'll probably want to go further), it would be a reason to bump it up.
Hmm, if Darkness=blinded for any creature within it (and without extra senses) then it might be good, although you only get +4 to attack and damage, and you have to blind yourself to anyone who isn't blinded, which kind of sucks. And yes, the way I see it this naturally affects your allies, unless they shield themselves from it, since the darkness is a burst.
One ally with Necropolitan or Tomb-Tainted Soul, and one living ally (or yourself for one of those two). Kuddos, infinite healing. Dman's Monk builds are also notorious for getting around 30 some-odd d8+Wis+Str damage on each attack he makes. Its effectively Heal and Harm at-will, with no save for half.
The Darkness sphere is huge, and effectively gives you blindsight while blinding everyone else in the radius every other round.
a
I'll go into a more detailed explanation later, but those two are the best parts.
The text says "base damage" and it wouldn't make sense to be better at healing by hitting harder. But I don't want to argue the point. One question though, how many levels of shadow sun ninja do the builds exploiting this usually take? Not that I'm doubting the ability of the CO community to optimize this, I just think a single standard action to do 32d8 negative energy damage a hit pales in comparison to doing the same thing three to five times a turn (more if hasted). Of course, it's easier (near-guaranteed) to hit with a touch attack, but that would be an option, then. Not really worth taking all the levels.
The darkness sphere... eludes my rules-fu on how useful it would be, but it'd 'only' be every two rounds and your allies are potentially affected as well (unlike the light sphere).
I gave Ebon saint the -2 since I had the entry class as lurk. The main reason is that it gives doesn't stack when determining lurk augments. Alter form is nice, but you have to stab someone first. All self respecting psionic users will take up EK: metamorphosis or research it ASAP. Metamorph is plain better than alter form (both need metamorphic transfer so that is a moot point) and taking straight lurk also means you get a better power at about the same time since you lose a ML taking ebon saint. Everything revolves around landing a dire strike, if you compare its capstone to cloud mind, cloud mind comes out on top since they only need to fail a will save. Disappear from mind requires a successful dire strike AND a failed will save.I'd like to contest Ebon Saint.On this one even more.
It's Dire Augs are strickly better than the lurk entry's augmentations, it even gives you a no restrictions alter form, which would make this a +0 or +1.
You put cognition thief at +1 because I said so, don't start growing a backbone now!!!!!I would nominate Cognition Thief for +2 since you can use it as a dip to get schism, mindlink (preq for the great thrallherd) or take it all the way for the game breaking psy chiurguery.No. Dips don't count, thrallherd can be accessed with EK and psi chirurgy is better when someone else uses it and is also accessible through EK. A PrC that loses 4 ML almost per definition can't be +2. We've mulled over this class before, but unless you can reach consensus here (i.e. I'm not fighting this one out with you), I won't move a class into +2-territory just because you say so.
edit: Err, this sounds kinda harsh. It's nothing personal, I just don't see it and don't want to deal with it :shrug
Ok, you have convinced me. Sounds to me like +1, now. Levels 1, 4 and 8 have good abilities. What would the logical entry be? Do unarmed swordsages qualify automatically by level 5?
It's a specific build, but a reasonably strong one at that. There's a link with discussion on it in my handy links at 339. I believe it starts as a psionic artificer and you load up with slotless items that grant pp and powers, while simultaneously crank up your hp. If the PC has a means to generate cash and has no time limit, he churns all his resources into permanently augmenting himself.Renegade mastermaker: +1 tier. Only progresses casting/infusions 8/10s, IIRC, but for a gish it's pretty awesome.I'd like someone to comment on this.
You see, you can buy max HP with this class at 10 gp each. 5 gp, if you craft them yourself, and since you're required to have the feats, why not?
Obvious entry is probably a character born on an evil plane who's a planetouched/ took the otherworldly feat...You need to have the evil subtype. Have you forgotten that, or else, which part of what you said does the magic? Also, you need to have charm person/monster as SLA for FoC and an SLA of 4th lvl or higher for FoB.
"Fiend of Blasphemy" - Totally focussed on getting people to do the ritual with you, but pretty sweet in the right context. Highly campaign dependent, but I'd call it Equal to Up One, erring on the side of Up One just because of how well the mechanics support and augment the flavour. Give this to a player in a freeform social campaign, and they'll take over the world in a year.Looking for a suitable race as I speak.
"Fiend of Corruption" - Grants wishes. Up Two.Not quite. The wishes aren't free. Nobody really wants "spend 5000xp" as their class feature. The soul you're getting in return isn't really worth much afaik and real soul binding is definitely preferable. As it stands, it gives a bunch of 1/day spell-likes, atonement at will and mind-shielding (ring of mind shielding costs 8000gp). Alternate form is really crazy because then you'll be a PC who is an outsider trying to be humanoid. Probably has its uses, but I'm not seeing them. This would go into the -1 to -2 pile in my book. Still trying to find an 1HD outsider with charm person...
edit: Touch of Captivation gives charm person, and should be aquirable if you're already an outsider with the evil subtype.Half-fey template too.
Nice one - but it has LA+2..edit: Touch of Captivation gives charm person, and should be aquirable if you're already an outsider with the evil subtype.Half-fey template too.
Sure does. Too bad Otherworldly in conjunction with Dragonwrought and Draconic reservoir doesn't work...Kobold, Ruathar and chaos feat shuffle. Start as Kobold from Sildėyuir/Evermeet (good luck with that), take Ruathar along the line and then use the chaos feat shuffle to replace that flaw-bonus feat with otherworldy. Haven't checked the books for Ruathar, but it should work.
Neraphim are natives to Limbo and don't get the [chaotic] subtype.
Well, in that case, you have to resort to savage species.
I mean one of the rituals.Well, in that case, you have to resort to savage species.
+1
Although, I think that the Savage Progressions prevent you from multiclassing unless you've taken all the levels in the progression. There's a rule about that in pg. 27 under the "Monster Classes and Multiclassing" section.
A Druid 10/Beastmaster 10 has casting as a 10th level druid, and has 4 animal companions equivalent to:
a level 23 druid's companion (yay!),
a level 7 druid's companion (Umm, hello?),
a level 4 druid's companion (what!?),
a level 1 druid's companion (wtf?),
I'd like to suggest that the Beastmaster PrC be reduced to a -2 tier PrC.It's obviously not a Druid class though. Consider both the book it's from, and the sample NPC, imply a Ranger focus. It also gets the same HD, BAB, saves, and skillpoints as a Ranger. None of that (except the skillpoints) lines up with Druids.
Reasons:
You give up 10 levels of full casting
You give up 10 levels of wild shape progression
In return, you get a +3 to the level of your main animal companion, full BAB, and d10 HD.
The other abilities are pretty useless; the extra animal companions that are gained are based off your class level, not your druid level - so they are of virtually no use at all. Do you beome a lord of beasts, with companions at your beck and call? Not so much.
A Druid 10/Beastmaster 10 has casting as a 10th level druid, and has 4 animal companions equivalent to:
a level 23 druid's companion (yay!),
a level 7 druid's companion (Umm, hello?),
a level 4 druid's companion (what!?),
a level 1 druid's companion (wtf?),
yeah, those companions suck. They are so low level that they are one-shotted by anything you face. The class fails to provide what it is meant to provide. The only time the class can be good is as a 1 level dip to boost the power of your animal companion by 3 effective druid levels, and even then you are trading away your spell advancement and a level of wildshape advancement for a marginally tougher AC.
What am I missing about Gwynharwyf and void discple? Why are they up 2 tiers? I could see the former as high +1 and the latter as -1 (maybe even +0 but it loses FIVE caster levels). I must have missed something...Gwynharwyf - on the low end of its tier. It's mostly there because omfg this class gives way too many advantages over straight Barbarians. Innate spellcasting is always a substantial power boost, Divine Grace is huge, immunity to charms and compulsions is something every character needs eventually (and most can only beg it from the Wizard), and just as a bonus you get smite and a combination of resistance 10 to three elements and DR that scales twice as fast as the base class. What do you give up in return? Uhhh.... one feat that's great for CG Barbarians anyway (as it allows them to take, oh, say Frenzied Berserker), and admittedly one dummy feat. Oh, and trap sense, you don't get trap sense any more. Shock, horror.
What am I missing about Gwynharwyf and void discple? Why are they up 2 tiers? I could see the former as high +1 and the latter as -1 (maybe even +0 but it loses FIVE caster levels). I must have missed something...
What am I missing about Gwynharwyf and void discple? Why are they up 2 tiers? I could see the former as high +1 and the latter as -1 (maybe even +0 but it loses FIVE caster levels). I must have missed something...Gwynharwyf - on the low end of its tier. It's mostly there because omfg this class gives way too many advantages over straight Barbarians. Innate spellcasting is always a substantial power boost, Divine Grace is huge, immunity to charms and compulsions is something every character needs eventually (and most can only beg it from the Wizard), and just as a bonus you get smite and a combination of resistance 10 to three elements and DR that scales twice as fast as the base class. What do you give up in return? Uhhh.... one feat that's great for CG Barbarians anyway (as it allows them to take, oh, say Frenzied Berserker), and admittedly one dummy feat. Oh, and trap sense, you don't get trap sense any more. Shock, horror.
I was wondering if paragon classes are represented here?
Also I thought I'd say that the Legacy Champion PrC is a +0. Its a strange, almost doubly class. You get average hit dice and low skills with only good will saves and cleric BaB. That all seems usual. There is not any set entry class (it has the extremely high prereq of being TENTH level to start). I was thinking a bard. It looses two caster levels but gives 2 feats and some very specific abilities. There now I contributed a whole book :)
I'm seconding PlzBreakMyCampaign's confusion about Void Disciple being up 2 tiers, while eating 5 caster levels....
Pyrokinetecist is from Expanded Psionics Handbook, not Sandstorm. It's also got much easier entry and better features than the Cryokinetecist at the cost of dealing fire damage instead of cold (but both are frequently resisted and/or immune).
Legacy Champion is too dependent upon both the class it advances, and what classes it can advance. It is used in my "Ultimate Mage" to get extra spells and spell levels into the Eldritch Tapestry of War Weaver, and most definitely adds a lot of flexibility (read : the rest of my freaking spell list) to an already Tier 1 character with two +2 Tier PrC's. In this case, I'd call it +2 Tier. If it weren't doing something like that for a class, but still helping (say on a Warlock that's also adding a ton more versatility than they have inherently, along with special abilities not normally accessible), I'd say it's +1. For someone like a Favored Soul, while it slows spell progression a bit, it adds different, though not necessarily weaker or stronger, powers, and is in general a lateral move for more options vs. raw power. For a Cleric (or Druid, or most of either, anyhow), it's actually delaying and gimping the class, as it has worse saves, worse casting, the same BAB, and no real abilities the Cleric doesn't have access to already. And for a Wizard without a GOOD reason to take it, it's the cardinal sin, at -2. Also, if the DM gimps it outright, it's hardly worth a rating.
Is this discontinued? What about Complete Champion? My thoughts:I would tend to disagree about +1, although it can make a NON-DMM cleric a good deal more melee suitable. I would leave it at +0, and +1 if DMM is either disallowed or made impractical.
Ordained Champion +1
All this talk about legacy champ made me think of uncanny trickster. It gives you a bunch of skill ranks, more free skill tricks, more uses of your favored tricks and advances "class features" in 2/3 levels. It is only 3 levels but it seems to offer a lot more than legacy champ and allows you advance PrC. Wonder if that would change it's ranking, currently it's +1 but at only 3 levels it's hard to say it would make big difference.The reason Legacy Champ would be good is the +1class abuse. Though this class can do that, it doesn't do it as well. So I see them at the same ranking (since the other stuff might balance them to equality)
The reason Legacy Champ would be good is the +1class abuse. Though this class can do that, it doesn't do it as well. So I see them at the same ranking (since the other stuff might balance them to equality)I have no idea what "does it better" mean when you say it. Either it advances class features or it doesn't I don't see much difference. Uncanny trickster is harder to qualifiy for and only advances 2/3 if that is what you mean.
Not to be a necro, but I feel Horizon walker should be at least +0, if only in a core only setting. Some of the abilities are a good trade compared to much of what you would get from another standard level of Ranger, Barbarian or Fighter.
Not to be a necro, but I feel Horizon walker should be at least +0, if only in a core only setting. Some of the abilities are a good trade compared to much of what you would get from another standard level of Ranger, Barbarian or Fighter.
Two of the major abilities can be duplicated by feats...
Is this discontinued? What about Complete Champion? My thoughts:
Fist of the Forest +1
Forest Reeve -1
Holt Warden +1
Mythic Exemplar +0, varies by path
Ordained Champion +1
Paragnostic Apostle +1
Paragnostic Initiate -1
Sanctified One -1, except Kord Blasters
Shadowspy -2
Shadowstriker -1
Squire of Legend +0, varies by path
[quibble] it's = it is. you most likely meant "its"[/quibble]
I would be very tempted to proclaim a fist of the forest as +2. Pretty much any monk based PC will take at least 1 level.It's statements like this that make me wonder just how many people actually read the PrC. Sure, the abilities are nice, but they're countered by some very harsh penalties. In an arena environment, it's amazing, but in an actual game, I'd rate it at +1 AT MOST, More likely +0.
I would be very tempted to proclaim a fist of the forest as +2. Pretty much any monk based PC will take at least 1 level.It's statements like this that make me wonder just how many people actually read the PrC. Sure, the abilities are nice, but they're countered by some very harsh penalties. In an arena environment, it's amazing, but in an actual game, I'd rate it at +1 AT MOST, More likely +0.
Do tiers care though? Are the tiers designed for things like that?
[quibble] it's = it is. you most likely meant "its"[/quibble]
Always was annoyed by that bit, but "more exceptions than uses of the rule" is about standard for english.
[quibble] it's = it is. you most likely meant "its"[/quibble]
Always was annoyed by that bit, but "more exceptions than uses of the rule" is about standard for english.
Actually, the system is consistent in this case. She is => She's. He is => He's. Hers for female possessive. His for male possessive. It is => It's. Its for neutral possessive. Apostrophe when you want to contract the noun with "is" and no apostrophe when you want to use the possessive form. So, in this case, "its" was correct.
I'm seconding PlzBreakMyCampaign's confusion about Void Disciple being up 2 tiers, while eating 5 caster levels....Three reasons.
Not to be a necro, but I feel Horizon walker should be at least +0, if only in a core only setting. Some of the abilities are a good trade compared to much of what you would get from another standard level of Ranger, Barbarian or Fighter.
Two of the major abilities can be duplicated by feats...
The two being? Dark vision, immunity to fatigue... ok the rest of the terrain mastery are crap. Then the planar mastries, DD/1d4 rounds (nicest thing melee gets in core), Tremor sense, immunitys to a few SoDs (Holy Word and it's kin) and a few items, energy resistance 20? Quite a bit better than Ranger or Fighter for more levels, possibly barbarian as well.
Not to be a necro, but I feel Horizon walker should be at least +0, if only in a core only setting. Some of the abilities are a good trade compared to much of what you would get from another standard level of Ranger, Barbarian or Fighter.
Two of the major abilities can be duplicated by feats...
The two being? Dark vision, immunity to fatigue... ok the rest of the terrain mastery are crap. Then the planar mastries, DD/1d4 rounds (nicest thing melee gets in core), Tremor sense, immunitys to a few SoDs (Holy Word and it's kin) and a few items, energy resistance 20? Quite a bit better than Ranger or Fighter for more levels, possibly barbarian as well.
Shape Soulmeld/Open Chakra and Martial Study?
I didn't see your reply. Honestly I don't care about this PrC, so don't take it personally. I'm just telling you how I see it. Here we go:I'm seconding PlzBreakMyCampaign's confusion about Void Disciple being up 2 tiers, while eating 5 caster levels....Three reasons.
3) Void Suppression. No-save-just-lose for 95% of the monsters out there. Requires a melee touch attack. Spectral Hand is (arguably, depending on your reading) your friend.
2) Moment of Clarity. Grant an ally any feat for a few rounds. Worth noting is that you specifically can't grant Ancestor feats, but Epic feats are, apparently, good to go.
1) Sense Void. Okay, so you can sense stuff anywhere except across planar boundaries, at the cost of a piddly Spellcraft check. This raises a whole series of questions: can others sense you when you're like that? Since you're leaving your body, can you use purely mental actions in that state? Can you move around? How long does it last? Does it count as a divination effect? What can block it? RAW's lack of statement implies very dire answers...
- There's no listed method of detecting if someone else is using this.
- There's nothing preventing the use of mental actions in this state, and there's not even a mention of it requiring concentration.
- There's no method of moving (but see the previous)
- There's no limit on duration given.
- It's never referred to as a divination, nor as scrying, despite the obvious similarities.
- Given that, there's no RAW method I've heard of to block it, short of planar boundaries. Illusions work, though.
1) Its only 7/day at 13th level. It is not continuous or at will. So it can't be used unless you know someone is coming. But oh wait you lost the caster levels so you can't contact other plane to know when to use it. Looks like you will be taking shots in the dark, and probably failing every time. All someone has to do is momentarily plane shift contingency when you use your ability.There's no duration listed, and no end condition listed. RAW being so vague, that would probably default to continuous (you're using it until you aren't using it any more, but honestly it could be almost anything). And you've got the total wrong idea anyway. You're thinking about an encounter win button. If he gets into an encounter, he's a marginally weaker Cleric/Wizard/whatever with a few odd tricks that might be helpful. I'm talking about a campaign win button. A generously-interpreted Void Disciple is the unparalleled master of Scry-and-Die. Unparalleled, because the classic defense against it is to resist the Scrying in the first place, by any of the many methods of defeating divinations... none of which work against the Void Disciple. And he can start doing it before Scry normally becomes available.
Hmm I don't do scry & die campaigns. So I don't know about that. Perhaps I am right on the other 2 points, but about the duration: why give more uses each per 2 class levels if it works continuously?The problem is how poorly-worded the whole thing is. The intent is an alternate Scry mechanic. You're supposed to do it, watch for a bit, then come back to your body. That's why there's additional uses per day. However, Scry spells out that you can only keep watching for 1 min/level, and doesn't have that annoying flavour text about actually going there, which causes all sorts of problems. Since you're suppose to go, see, and come back, it obviously lasts some period of time (an "instantaneous" peek would be rather odd). Since it doesn't say when it ends, apparently it doesn't unless you choose it to. You have mobility issues in that state, so a strict reading might make it so you can go and see as long as you like but can't move around without going back to your body and using it again... but a method of moving as a mental action could get around this.
I've used Scry-and-Die once and only once. It was late and we wanted to finish the campaign before dawn. In every other situation I have a lot of trouble seeing a DM letting Scry-and-Die go off, regardless of RAW, at least for the campaign boss. Now I haven't played with every DM ever, so my evidence is anecdotal only but a tactic that gets banned (or books thrown at you) isn't a good tactic.The only campaign I've been in where one was used, the PCs had to raid this Dwarven fortress. There was only one enterance with ridiculous defenses, and the PCs had a hard time of it for a while. Then the Void Disciple SenseVoid'd into the centre of the facility, used his newfound familiarity to teleport them all right into the command room, and what was supposed to be a marathon session was over with trivial ease. Part of that was the DM's fault (he didn't expect them to have any way to teleport in), but it goes to show that, yes, it really does happen in actual games.
The lack of extraplanar sight is pretty hindering, though.You're still a spellcaster who can probably still cast Scry if you need too. I don't think planar boundaries are a big deal in 95% of the games I've played, and it's usually possible to travel to the plane in question and then use it. It's not as useful for TO epic play, what with Genesis shenanigans, but I'm not going to hold that against the class.
Where does Survivor (commoner entry) rank? It's at least 1 up (hard to get worse) for the levels it effects (it's able to do one thing, not sure on how well).It doesn't even do that well. With d6 HD, no AC bonus, and no armour proficiency? Yeah, I wouldn't expect you to live long in most games. Down 1, possibly Down 2. It's only superior to Commoner levels in that everything is superior to commoner levels, and even there it loses on BAB.
so +1 or +0 for commoner and -2 for everyone else?Possibly +1 for Commoner, but really the class seems intended for level 5 pure-classed characters of any class, who want a little extra something. Literally any level 5 character who hasn't multiclassed can access it, from Rogues to Barbarians to Truenamers to Samurai to Wizards. This makes it exceedingly hard to quantify the benefits. Hmmm....
It's better in gestalt, but not by that much.A good point. Given the ease of entry, it could be a useful stepping stone in gestalt. The HD and BAB don't really matter any more if paired with something decent, and the individual abilities offered are potentially worth the level. Evasion in particular is a nice one to pick up if you can. Ref Half is generally a weak thing for players to use, but a classic for monsters. I'd definitely consider it for any high-Dex gestalt character, if I didn't have anything to do on the passive side at the time.
Actually, Survivor could be useful in Epic: You don't lose much (except for skillpoints and HP), but gain a lot of useful defensive class features to round off your character's survivability. Granted, the saying "the best defense is a good offense" is probably even more true in Epic, and DR 5/- isn't going to get you very far. But Uncanny Dodge and Evasion, as well as all good saves, are not bad. Might be as good as a +/-0 for non-casters.Saves don't matter in Epic, I believe. Everyone gets the same progression.
Actually, Survivor could be useful in Epic: You don't lose much (except for skillpoints and HP), but gain a lot of useful defensive class features to round off your character's survivability. Granted, the saying "the best defense is a good offense" is probably even more true in Epic, and DR 5/- isn't going to get you very far. But Uncanny Dodge and Evasion, as well as all good saves, are not bad. Might be as good as a +/-0 for non-casters.Saves don't matter in Epic, I believe. Everyone gets the same progression.
RE: Prestige Paladin/Bard/Ranger
I think your right HCL, prestige Paly is probably a +1 as a dip, especially if you go all out and pick up battle blessing. It gets out right broken if you can combine it with Sword of the Arcane Order, but I don't think that works by RAW and it sounds like something that would get a DMG thrown at you for.
Prestige Bard has two other uses besides Warmage entry. I've seen it dipped to qualify for sublime chord or fochlucan lyricist builds, which if done right breaks you even. The other is for gishes, it allows casting in light armour, again this is a +0 because at most you take two levels and gishes are giving up power anyways.
Prestige Ranger sucks, easily a -2 if a druid is going into it. You can get in with Spirit Shaman, or as a Cleric with the animal domain, but why would you? Unless by serendipity you have Endurance, Track and either PBS or TWF it would be easier to just cherry pick the Ranger spells you want using the Extra Spell feat.
One important * that a lot of people miss is you are supposed to only use these prestige classes if the corresponding base class is made unavailable. That may disqualify them from some games.
Shouldn't Prestige Paladin get a rating as a fighter prestige class with a logical entry of Fighter 4/ Cleric 1 or Fighter 3/ Cleric 2? I know this is kinda stacking the deck cause if cleric was a 19 level prestige class you could enter at lvl 2 it would be a +4 prestige class but, the cleric heavy entries can't reach PP 15 at level 20 so even though it's a more powerful build cleric 8 isn't the logical entry if you're in for the long haul. I'll be counting cleric 1 as if it were the first level of the prestige class.
Prestige Paladin +1
Logical Entry: Fighter 4/Cleric 1
you lose: 8 fighter feats, 1 hp, 1 BAB
gain: 2 domains( potentially 2 feat equivilents), 5th lvl casting from the cleric a paladin lists, detect evil at will, turn undead, divine grace, lay on hands, speacial mount (as core paladin 2 levels below your ecl), aura of courage, divine health, remove disease 3/day, smite evil 4/day.
Agreed that Fist of the Forest is classic for the Con-to-AC, especially since it doesn't replace Dex and applies against touch attacks. +1 at least, especially since it's more or less a Monk PrC.Feral Living is a major setback in anything but arena games or WLD. Definitely not a +2 PrC, and I'd set it ast a low +1 at best.
Agreed that Fist of the Forest is classic for the Con-to-AC, especially since it doesn't replace Dex and applies against touch attacks. +1 at least, especially since it's more or less a Monk PrC.Feral Living is a major setback in anything but arena games or WLD. Definitely not a +2 PrC, and I'd set it ast a low +1 at best.
Keep in mind, it's only 3 levels! Does that not weight it differently on the tier scales? If Champion of Gwynharwyf gives +2 after spending 10 levels, FotF gives what it gives in only 3 levels! For a flat monk you progress 3 IUS steps, you gain Con to AC, you get a type of rage which helps decrease MAD, you get a Natural attack, Full BAB and two good saves.Not quite. While Acorn of Far Travel treats you as always in a natural setting, it does not remove the fact you are in a civilized area. Feral Living doesn't penalize you for not being in a natural setting, it penalizes you for doing things that normal people do (i.e., sleep in inns, eating prepared food, etc.) Acorn of Far Travel does zilch to help in that respect.
Feral Living? Get an Acorn of Far Travel and you can sleep anywhere. And it's not hard to never have to eat. That's if the DM even enforces it. (But I know, we shouldn't do tiers based on that, but AoFT still stands)
If we straight compare Fist of the Forest to another +2 class, it doesn't match up. I agree. However, the fact that FotF is only three level long means that's it's a small investment! The class by itself is a dip! I say that FotF may not weigh as much as Incantatrix, but it's just as dense.
I'd say a solid +1 that can near a +2 on some characters.
Keep in mind, it's only 3 levels! Does that not weight it differently on the tier scales? If Champion of Gwynharwyf gives +2 after spending 10 levels, FotF gives what it gives in only 3 levels! For a flat monk you progress 3 IUS steps, you gain Con to AC, you get a type of rage which helps decrease MAD, you get a Natural attack, Full BAB and two good saves.Not quite. While Acorn of Far Travel treats you as always in a natural setting, it does not remove the fact you are in a civilized area. Feral Living doesn't penalize you for not being in a natural setting, it penalizes you for doing things that normal people do (i.e., sleep in inns, eating prepared food, etc.) Acorn of Far Travel does zilch to help in that respect.
Feral Living? Get an Acorn of Far Travel and you can sleep anywhere. And it's not hard to never have to eat. That's if the DM even enforces it. (But I know, we shouldn't do tiers based on that, but AoFT still stands)
If we straight compare Fist of the Forest to another +2 class, it doesn't match up. I agree. However, the fact that FotF is only three level long means that's it's a small investment! The class by itself is a dip! I say that FotF may not weigh as much as Incantatrix, but it's just as dense.
I'd say a solid +1 that can near a +2 on some characters.
Low +1 at the very best.
Agreed that Fist of the Forest is classic for the Con-to-AC, especially since it doesn't replace Dex and applies against touch attacks. +1 at least, especially since it's more or less a Monk PrC.Feral Living is a major setback in anything but arena games or WLD. Definitely not a +2 PrC, and I'd set it ast a low +1 at best.
Ditto.
ANd when we're talking tiers, the monk is T5 and the Swordsage is T3.
The Fist of the Forest does not in any way make a monk comparable to a swordsage. It's definitely not up two.
Maybe up one, in the right settings. But up two is comparing it to Incantatrix. It's a nice bonus and is helpful, but does not dramatically change character potential.
Yes, they do. Quite literally. The more powerful prestige classes increase the scope of character potential to the point that the character's current tricks can be used in almost any situation, or in the cases of some, dramatically increase the power of them to the point that they have more options. The point here is that they significantly change the character. Extra points to a stat is not a change to a character. Metamagic Effect 2/day(Incantatrix), Planar Bubble 2/day (Planar Shepherd), ninth level casting (Ur-Priest), and fifth level casting ON TOP of continuation or improvement of existing abilities (Runescarred Berserker) DO dramatically change the way a character is played and what they are capable of. An extra few points to AC from a class that penalizes you for roleplaying choices is nothing of the sort.Agreed that Fist of the Forest is classic for the Con-to-AC, especially since it doesn't replace Dex and applies against touch attacks. +1 at least, especially since it's more or less a Monk PrC.Feral Living is a major setback in anything but arena games or WLD. Definitely not a +2 PrC, and I'd set it ast a low +1 at best.
Ditto.
ANd when we're talking tiers, the monk is T5 and the Swordsage is T3.
The Fist of the Forest does not in any way make a monk comparable to a swordsage. It's definitely not up two.
Maybe up one, in the right settings. But up two is comparing it to Incantatrix. It's a nice bonus and is helpful, but does not dramatically change character potential.
The PrCs aren't supposed to literally change you that number of tiers. A Planar Shepherd Druid is not tier -1, and a Bard Incantatrix is not the equal of a Wizard.
Yes, they do. Quite literally.
Foreword by sonofzeal, whos started this list:
...
To repeat: the ranking is not literal.
...
Yes, they do. Quite literally.Foreword by sonofzeal, whos started this list:
...
To repeat: the ranking is not literal.
...
Just saying.
I stand by my same point- the Fist of the Forest is in that same bracket. In terms of any measure of power or usefulness, it does not drastically change the character.
Feral Trance is 1/day.I stand by my same point- the Fist of the Forest is in that same bracket. In terms of any measure of power or usefulness, it does not drastically change the character.
You think a Monk 20 and a Monk 17/FotF 3 aren't drastically different?
You get another attack, at least 10 more AC, an extra attack, +2 damage, +2 BAB, and uncanny dodge! You've convinced me that okay, maybe it isn't +2, but there is a solid +1 here!
Feral Trance is 1/day.I stand by my same point- the Fist of the Forest is in that same bracket. In terms of any measure of power or usefulness, it does not drastically change the character.
You think a Monk 20 and a Monk 17/FotF 3 aren't drastically different?
You get another attack, at least 10 more AC, an extra attack, +2 damage, +2 BAB, and uncanny dodge! You've convinced me that okay, maybe it isn't +2, but there is a solid +1 here!
10 AC is possible but unlikely unless someone is breaking your WBL or you have some amazing rolls and racial bonuses/penalties.
+2 Damage/Bab is a joke.
Uncanny Dodge barely brings a monk in line with someone wearing armor.
You once again ignore Primal Living, which is a BIG DEAL.
You've also lost in Will saves, which is often the Important One.
I've said before that in the best of days Fist of the Forest is +1, and you're right- but that in the absolute BEST case scenario.
Hmm Yes the tiers aren't literal. Yes I argued against this during the PrC Tier formation and yes I have gone along with this more qualitative system (which does have some merits the literal way lacks).It's flexible, but it really doesn't add much to any character. The best use I see for it is a Totemist dip where I sould consider it to be +1. Really, the features are underwhelming and have a major drawback attached that will come up in 95% of games. Combined with the 3 feat prerequisites (none of which are that good of feats, Great Fortitude being the best) and it's painful. Versatile in entry, but not that great of a PrC.
On FotF: 2 things we are forgetting. 1) it works on just about any non-casting base class. Due to the seperate flurry progression I would say that monk is not the logical progression. Something like a barbarian would. The point is this class is flexible. I have even used it for scouts.
2) Its easy. The incantrix and artificer might have high benefits but they just aren't that simple. This thing is three levels of awesome that even a straight monk player can appreciate ( :p). It doesn't require much optimization to get a big bang for its buck.
That sounds like +1 to me. Put a "*low" next to it if u want, but its definately not +2 and its not +0 in most possible cases.
Hmm Yes the tiers aren't literal. Yes I argued against this during the PrC Tier formation and yes I have gone along with this more qualitative system (which does have some merits the literal way lacks).
On FotF: 2 things we are forgetting. 1) it works on just about any non-casting base class. Due to the seperate flurry progression I would say that monk is not the logical progression. Something like a barbarian would. The point is this class is flexible. I have even used it for scouts.
2) Its easy. The incantrix and artificer might have high benefits but they just aren't that simple. This thing is three levels of awesome that even a straight monk player can appreciate ( :p). It doesn't require much optimization to get a big bang for its buck.
That sounds like +1 to me. Put a "*low" next to it if u want, but its definately not +2 and its not +0 in most possible cases.
Alright, I don't think you are getting it. Its NOT a monk prc. Its a prc for Bear Warriors, Wildshape Rangers, Primevals, Totemists, etc. You can't normally make iteratives with natural weapons and you don't normally wear armor while shapeshifted. FotF gives you the abilitiy to make some iteratives with decent damage, then use your natural weapons as secondaries. And these damage increases are stacking with size category increases you are gaining from shapeshifting. And if you are a dwarf (and you should be) you can power attack with your fists with Hammer Fist (you normally can't power attack with natural weapons because they are light). Then you get the con to AC (which should, again, be high because you are a dwarf and dwarves have high con)Second post of thread:
Even. These PrCs are roughly on par with their entry classes overall, trading strengths in certain areas for strengths in others, or provides moderate gains for a moderate investment (ie required feats or unfavorable multiclassing). Expect characters with these to fit naturally into a single-classed party.
Up One Tier. These PrCs generally improve their entry classes substantially, without radically affecting game balance. Expect characters with these to be powerful allies or dangerous enemies, without totally overshadowing their single-classed peers.I remain totally unconvinced. Small mechanical bonuses are not a substantial improvement.
Plus, fighter gets bonus feats. The warrior does not get bonus feats.I was pointing out what the differance amounted to. over 3 levels the difference is 2 feats, which is +1 to hit and +2 to damage, or an extra attack due to karmic strike, an improved attack mode. A fighter doesn't actually get a bonus to AC, damage or the like.
Joxar can do anything Hercules can, only not as good.Hehe I caught that. Also, I never thought about it that way... nor did anyone else (in the show) I think.
I have yet to see how the mentioned small bonuses are substantial.Joxar can do anything Hercules can, only not as good.Hehe I caught that. Also, I never thought about it that way... nor did anyone else (in the show) I think.
Hey wacko what your pointing out is known to me and doesn't address what I said. For non-monks FotF can substantially improve a build without lots of optimization. Also I find your avatar funny considering what lans wrote (king of thieves in the same show and all)
I have yet to see how the mentioned small bonuses are substantial.Joxar can do anything Hercules can, only not as good.Hehe I caught that. Also, I never thought about it that way... nor did anyone else (in the show) I think.
Hey wacko what your pointing out is known to me and doesn't address what I said. For non-monks FotF can substantially improve a build without lots of optimization. Also I find your avatar funny considering what lans wrote (king of thieves in the same show and all)
The Fist of the Forest improves monks somewhat, but not substantially.
True, but a Bear Warrior is a PrC. The ratings aren't coming from how much they can benefit another PrC, but how much they benefit the base classes.I have yet to see how the mentioned small bonuses are substantial.Joxar can do anything Hercules can, only not as good.Hehe I caught that. Also, I never thought about it that way... nor did anyone else (in the show) I think.
Hey wacko what your pointing out is known to me and doesn't address what I said. For non-monks FotF can substantially improve a build without lots of optimization. Also I find your avatar funny considering what lans wrote (king of thieves in the same show and all)
The Fist of the Forest improves monks somewhat, but not substantially.
They're right about putting it on a Bear Warrior. that makes a world of difference.
Then apply it to natural attack barbarians and totemists.And they still don't get enough of a boost for FotF to really be considered a +1 PrC. Both classes only benefit from the first level ability (Barbarians already have Uncanny Dodge by the time they qualify) and the unarmed-combat style doesn't lend itself well to either class. Barbarians are far better off with a 2-handed weapon. Totemists can use it, but the unarmed strikes won't keep up to the natural weapons provided by Soulmelds and quickly become an afterthought. It's nice to have a couple more attacks, but when you already have a dozen, who cares? Besides, FotF doesn't add the iteritive capability: that's the prerequisite Improved Unarmed Strike.
But it ups the damage die significantly. Barbarian 17/FotF 3 is +0, I agree, but Barbarian X/Bear Warrior X/FotF 3is +1. If that's out of the scope of the guide because it relies on the prestige class to be a +1, then so be it.
Ug your not reading what I mentioned the time before this quote up here. This PrC isn't for monks.I have yet to see how the mentioned small bonuses are substantial.Joxar can do anything Hercules can, only not as good.Hehe I caught that. Also, I never thought about it that way... nor did anyone else (in the show) I think.
Hey wacko what your pointing out is known to me and doesn't address what I said. For non-monks FotF can substantially improve a build without lots of optimization. Also I find your avatar funny considering what lans wrote (king of thieves in the same show and all)
The Fist of the Forest improves monks somewhat, but not substantially.
Ug your not reading what I mentioned the time before this quote up here. This PrC isn't for monks.And you're not reading what we're saying. It doesn't matter if it's a Monk or not that's using it. It doesn't help ANYONE enough to be a +1 PrC.
Ug your not reading what I mentioned the time before this quote up here. This PrC isn't for monks.Read first post.
I started a +2 PrCs thread and I have done the ones that I am familiar with. Anyone want to help me out with some of the rest?
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6876.0
And you're not reading what we're saying.Wrong. My posts have acknowledged yours. They simply disagreed. Do not confuse the two.
You keep citing this flurry progression. The PrC doesn't have one. At all. Where are you getting this idea from? If it's from the Feral Trance, then I'm sorry, but that's not Flurry, especially since the extra attack can only be gotten during those trances which can be used a maximum of 2/dayAnd you're not reading what we're saying.Wrong. My posts have acknowledged yours. They simply disagreed. Do not confuse the two.
The compelling reason is the seperate flurry progression. And the fact that actually tankish classes use that con->AC much better. If thats not cool enough it just means I get to show DMs, who don't believe my AC, that its only a +0 PrC.
PBMC out
How about the Skypledged? For a Druid entry I think its only a +0 since it gives cleric spell access, full casting, and some class features, but it does not continue animal companion and wildshape progression.
For a Cleric it is at least a +1, you get access to druid spells, can cast spells semi spontaneously, and you get some nice class features. All you lose compared to taking Cloistered Cleric levels is 2 skill points per level and turn undead progression (hehe). There is also a restrictive code, but you don't really lose that much other than non-air elemental summoning and Wall of Stone.
Can someone explane me why Emissaries of Barachiel is a +2? I really dont get it, i'm reading the class over and over and can't find a reason...
Can someone explane me why Emissaries of Barachiel is a +2? I really dont get it, i'm reading the class over and over and can't find a reason...
Dire Bear form 24/7 is pretty sweet. But I agree it's only a strong +1.
Oh I got my BoED classes mixed up.Nailed it in one. Well, two, sorta.
I can answer the question then:
Permanent alignment shifting powers with a DC set my a Diplomacy check. It's like a Diplomancer with an even stronger weapon.
Can somebody explain why arcane archer is -2. It seems to me that while its not great, it doesn't deserve that much hate.It takes a lot of junk feats to enter, requires, but doesn't advance casting, the only scaling class feature is replicated by a spell completely, and the other abilities (save Imbue Arrow) are all 1/day. Arrow of Death is a Fort save with a low save DC, so it will almost assuredly be resisted.
but what about hellreaver?+0 probably as you get a few nice things that are very situational with rather meh prerequisites. Assuming of course you enter as a non spellcasting sneaky type like a rogue.
but what about hellreaver?+0 probably as you get a few nice things that are very situational with rather meh prerequisites. Assuming of course you enter as a non spellcasting sneaky type like a rogue.
You are correct there. All the prestige classes from that book sound the same. Hellreaver looks like it would be significantly better than a paladin at doing what a paladin does, but it still would be a step down from crusader, so with a paladin entry it is probably +1 to +0 as it makes you better at slaying evil creatures with no real big loses as a paladin but it is still not overly good. As any other form of entry it is a -1 to +0.but what about hellreaver?+0 probably as you get a few nice things that are very situational with rather meh prerequisites. Assuming of course you enter as a non spellcasting sneaky type like a rogue.
What about entering via Crusader or the like? Why would you enter via rogue?
EDIT: I think you mean Hellbreaker, the one which piggybacks on teleport spells and steals SLAs. Hellreaver is kind of like a paladin that hates demons/devils and has no casting.
Alchemist Savant: a low +1, full casting or infusions, you don't lose anything and gain some nice brewing abilities, solid +1 at the low-mid levels and providing potion buffs for your partyI would argue that for an artificer it's not a +1 since an artificer's main advantages are its feats and its crafting. For an artificer it would be more of a +0 or -1.
review of Eberron classesDeadgrim: +1 for paladin entry (or basically most melee builds with dip into divine magic)
Complete Champion:
Fist of the Forest: [spoiler]Nothing too new or interesting; primal living is a great setback.
Neither up nor down a tier, maybe up one in the right circumstances. About the only thing this has over the similar monk is a faster unarmed progression, Full BAB, and d10 hd. It loses will save. If the AC bonus stacks with that of say, the monk, it's cool, but still not a significant bump in power[/spoiler]
Forest Reeve: [spoiler]In a low magic setting, earth's defender is cool. Otherwise, not really. If you have any sort of magical weaponry, it's next to useless- a +3 weapon at level 10? Not too impressive.
Fast movement is nifty but not too big.
Nature's Rejuvenation is cool in flavor, but it isn't that great. The rest of the abilities, save whispers of the forest, are kinda ehhhh. Whispers of the forest is useful, but 1/day is kinda lame.
The chasis is not that great, either- it gains little compared to the ranger.
It's probably +0, at best. It doesn't make your life any worse, but it doesn't do anything too cool or interesting. Does not progress ranger/druid casting.[/spoiler]
Holt Warden: [spoiler]Full casting, so at least somewhat useful. Seems to be a transformative class- probably good with cleric entry. Plant domain is useful but not astounding. Earth's Communion is great for out of combat healing at the level it comes (as early as lvl. 8!) but doesn't really change the game too much.
Whispers of the Forest is cool, if only for the insight ability.
Web of Life is AWESOME. In short.
So, I'd say up 1 tier in general. With cleric entry, up as much as 2 tiers.[/spoiler]
Mythic Exemplar: [spoiler]Class is very modular, so could be useful. Can be as much as 8/10 casting with Imdastri or Ktolemange as patron. Otherwise is 5/10, which is crap unless you don't care about casting anyway (full BAB class) but then you're taking a hit to BAB with the class's 3/4 BAB.
Seems like best path is probably Imdastri, for the capstone- even then, at MOST MOST MOST +1 tier. Luck, Protection and Strength are great domains, but probably not worth 2 levels of casting. You could do better, but you could do a lot worse. For a cleric entry, which seems the most logical, you're gaining the one thing you don't have- class abilities.
Would be more solidly up one tier if it gave Full BAB on some of the paths.[/spoiler]
Ordained Champion:
[spoiler]Well spoken of for gish clerics, and for good reason. Bonus domain, Combat Feats, and Continued advancement all make Ordained Champion mesh well with a cleric entry. Modified Spontaneous Casting is bump in power- spontaneous curing is kinda lame. Harming is a mixed bag.
Diehard is cool but taking endurance sucks, so getting it for free is cool but not incredible.
Smite is useful because it's not limited by alignment. The charisma synergy is kinda crap cause of MAD, but still useful.
Channel Spell is AWESOME. Like, hands down AMAZING. I cannot praise this ability enough.
Divine Bulwark is nice because DR is useful in combat no matter what and you have swift actions all the time.
Fist of the Gods is nice, once again, swift action economy plus combat usefulness.
Rapid Spontaneous Casting. HERE IT IS. This is great. Now, instead of having to Persistify Divine Power, you can instead pop one off as a Swift action in the first round of combat. This is an AMAZING ability. The war domain is useful in general, and this pumps its usefulness.
Holy Warrior is interesting, but not so useful. It is not bad, and certainly has uses, but is mostly eclipsed by Intuitave Strike. This is useful, however, in that it applies to all weapons. Useful if your Wis is higher, which it almost certainly is. In fact, With four turning uses (you don't need them so much for persistent effects with the Rapid Spontaneous) you can do it for the standard 4 encounters/day.
War Caster is Gravy. +2 CL is nice but not game changing.
For a Gish cleric, which the class deliberately caters to, the Ordained is AMAZING. It is easily up one tier, and probably up two- for a cleric. If you enter as a paladin, it's still useful, but not as much. Archivists will LOVe it, as well. The Chasis is good, with full BAB, d8, and the two good saves being the important ones. The only thing it doesn't really have is skill points, but a Cloistered Cleric entry fixes that.[/spoiler]
Paragnostic Apostle
[spoiler]Lore is a Bardic Knowledge Clone, and is useful, but mostly a roleplay device. Holy Texts is nice for cleric entry, but would be much better if it granted Turning if you didn't already have it. Knowledge is Power is the cornerstone of the class; depending on the ones you select, you could be great or awful. None of them are particularly useful or gamebreaking, but they are neat perks. Mind over Matter is great for any wizard; there's a plethora of summoning abilities that would be nice for a Malconvoker.
In general, up .5 tier. Maybe up one, maybe neither up nor down.
[/spoiler]
Paragnostic Intitate:
[spoiler]The combat focused counterpart of the Paragnostic Apostle. Their abilities are focused on assiting casters. On initial glance, the Chasis is pretty impressive- full BAB, two good saves (F and R), 6+ skills per level with a decent list, and d8 hd.
The Tactical Combat abilities are the mainstay of the class; most of them are useful but not greatly so. Perhaps the most useful is Mystical Augmentation, if the domain is chosen carefully. They aren't that valuable, in the end.
The Assist Casting abilities are useful, but in many ways require difficult circumstances- Distraction will reasonably almost never be used, and is moderately valuable when it is. Target is useful if one of your casters loves damage spells to death, which is not really a great thing.
Penetration is a very minor bonus; the once per round limitation keeps it from being highly useful. Tactical Combat's usefulness is shaky, at best.
The Paragnostic Initiate is neither up nor down a tier.[/spoiler]
Sanctified One:
[spoiler]Another modular PRC; entry reqs indicate that it's intended for a character with good combat skills, yet it only has three quarter BAB. Three good saves, otoh, is pretty great, and d8 HD is average. The paths themselves aren't that great- they give you choice of abilities. The spellcasting progression seems misplaced, too. A cleric could enter, but would lose two levels of casting for some etcetera abilities; the class is said to not be intended for paladins and none of the dieties the class caters to are LG, so no go. The class is a slight improvement for a melee type, and a loss for a caster. So, with Cleric entry, -1, any other +0.
[/spoiler]
Shadowspy:
[spoiler]Little schizophrenic. Has skillmoney requirements with casting requirements; necessitates multiclassing.
Only advances casting 1/2 of time, three quarter BAB, d6 hd, but good reflex and wll saves. The abilities primarily emulate spells that you would've gotten anyway if you didn't multiclass for it; I'd say unless there's some optimized entry, you're looking at -1 to even -2. It simply doesn't fulfill any role to well, nor does it do anything too new or interesting.
[/spoiler]
Shadowstriker:
[spoiler]Bit better than shadowspy. Full BAB, two good saves, easy entry requirements. Badge of Office is a roleplay and poorly defined ability; it's 100% setting dependent. Luminous Weapon is nice, but increases MAD. D'oh! Smite Evil is useful but not too groundbreaking. Sun's Blessing can only be used 1/day unless you have another source of smite/turn/spontaneous casting, and unless you're specifically using it for the Daylight effect, it's pretty much suck. Surge of Piety is much the same, and only works on Undead. In the right campaigns this is useful, but in general, the shadowstriker is +0 tiers.[/spoiler]
Squire of Legend:[spoiler] Entry Requirements are very broad; you can enter from almost anything, really.
As fro the class abilities, the chassis is relatively poor- one good save, your choice, three quarter BAB (but it comes out to only one point lost as the class is 3 levels).
Squire's Burden is the mainstay of the class's power; as such, it is your primary combat ability. However, it's none too special; the various paths are relatively balanced against one another, but do not grant a lot of power. Reikhardt's least ability is actually quite useful- burning standard actions for someone else to take one seems like a bad joke, but a fighter, for instance, is less useful attacking or even full attacking than the wizard or cleric is casting another spell. However, as the abilities are usable once per day, they don't come up that often.
All in all, the squire of legend is useful but not incredibly so. I'd say it's between +0 and +1 in terms of power; it does little unique or extensively useful. The note about using leadership to acquire a Squire of Legend is largely developer wanking- it isn't any more overpowering than a warblade or other similar T3 class of the same level. A white raven warblade does the whole thing better, for example.[/spoiler]
The iaijutsu master also gets 9*cha to damage when using iaijutsu focus, which is total hax.
Looking through Oriental Adventures with the 3.5 update I came up with this:
Battle Maiden: -1?
I'd imagine sohei/samurai entry or paladin if you are using them.
Bear Warrior: reprinted elsewhere
Blade Dancer -2
Id put this at -3 f it existed, its that bad.
Is there a difference between this prc tier thread, and this one ---> http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3876.0Reincarnation, man
whats the diff? which one should I use?
Thief of Life: -1, possibly the only PrC printed outside of MoI that has incarnum support, class abilities are incredibly niche, possible entry by 3rd level with a glimmerskin halfling rogue/spellthiefum... how? I just looked and saw no incarnum progression and the abilities are all blood/death based...
Cyre Scout: +1, gain limited infusions (I don't think any other class gives you that), blindsense, detect magic & identifyya
This is the kept-up one (supposedly)Thief of Life: -1, possibly the only PrC printed outside of MoI that has incarnum support, class abilities are incredibly niche, possible entry by 3rd level with a glimmerskin halfling rogue/spellthiefum... how? I just looked and saw no incarnum progression and the abilities are all blood/death based...
Dread necromancer gets a couple of synergies the warmage doesn't (magic circle against evil greatly assists planar binding, and your rebuking gives a pool for divine feats, including DMM later on).
With magic circle you can actually planar bind things without death+reanimation shenanigans.
And it's not like you're going to be persist focused.
@Knight Phantom - is it really that much better than Eldritch Knight?No, it isn't. If we're going with some kind of +/- system then I'd say they're both -1 PrCs for anything but some kind of Warmage entry. You're probably sacrificing 2 caster levels to take these classes, and that's pretty much the definition of playing nice when we're talking about Sorcerers and Wizards.
That said, I don't like 10-level PrCs getting a +/- rating. Any properly built Incantatrix is a Tier 1 character, even if you advance something like Duskblade casting with it. It can still freely persist the spells of other characters and/or spells from wands and scrolls. Eldritch Knight and Knight Phantom are both Tier 2.That's why the ratings are based upon the expected entry for the PrC.
If it's based on an "expected" entry, then why generalize it? What does it mean to be a "Tier -1" Wizard/Incantatrix or a "Tier 0" Sorcerer/Incantatrix? Is a Sorcerer/Incantatrix really significantly better than a Dread Necromancer/Incantatrix or a Beguiler/Incantatrix? Also, what's the expected entry for a PrC like Battle Trickster, which is explicitly designed to be entered into by a wide variety of classes?That said, I don't like 10-level PrCs getting a +/- rating. Any properly built Incantatrix is a Tier 1 character, even if you advance something like Duskblade casting with it. It can still freely persist the spells of other characters and/or spells from wands and scrolls. Eldritch Knight and Knight Phantom are both Tier 2.That's why the ratings are based upon the expected entry for the PrC.
I strongly disagree with shadowsmith being a tier 0. You gain a couple of minor skill bonuses, but most of the classes abilities are focused on giving you benefits that are worse than magic items normally give you. Making shadow weapons is mostly pointless. You don't get a simple magic weapon until at least character level 11, and by level 16 you have effectively a +7 weapon (+5 with shadowstriking). By that times I would expect players start upgrading towards +10 weapons. The deflection bonus would be nice, but it maxes out at +4, which is worse then a ring of deflection, so if you are using it, your AC is lower than it would be.
Basically, you are putting 10 levels into a prestige class to make sub-par equipment. The weapon can't get any cool enchantments other than shadowstriking, they are even worse if you want to dual-weild. It just fails to do what it is trying to do.
I contest that Bloodstorm Blade (Tome of Battle) is best taken for 4 levels. After that, it becomes meh.You take it for 2, 4, or 10 levels (10 levels is awesome). There are no other break points.
Sublime Chord is powerful because you can get into with combinations of classes instead of just straight bard. It's good for dual progression because of the fast advancement, and I'm sure others can point out more advantages.
Sublime Chord is powerful because you can get into with combinations of classes instead of just straight bard. It's good for dual progression because of the fast advancement, and I'm sure others can point out more advantages.
Sure, there's plenty of advantages, it's a fantastic PrC, and a must for all high level bards. The "typical entry" would have be straight or mostly bard, and I just don't think it breaks into tier 1.
I think Sublime Chord should be a +1 instead of +2. Don't get me wrong, I really really love it, but it pretty much turns your tier 3 bard into a sorcerer, which is tier 2. Sure, with bardic music and all of the ways to use it to better spellcasting you're a pretty powerful and slightly more versatile sorcerer, but you still suffer from a small list of spells known. Isn't that the separation between tiers 1 and 2? They are equal in power, but tier 1s are game breaking in every situation, and tier 2s are game breaking only in certain situations?
I might have mentioned this before, but the current numbering scheme really is misleading at best. I'd prefer if it were just descriptors IE
Great
Good
Even
Bad
Worst
Or something like that.
There's also the fact that a +2 tiers PrC turns a tier 3 into a tier 2, not a tier 3 into a tier 5.
I might have mentioned this before, but the current numbering scheme really is misleading at best. I'd prefer if it were just descriptors IE
Great
Good
Even
Bad
Worst
Or something like that.
There's also the fact that a +2 tiers PrC turns a tier 3 into a tier 2, not a tier 3 into a tier 5.