Brilliant Gameologists Forum

The Thinktank => Min/Max It! => Handbooks => Topic started by: Akalsaris on June 27, 2009, 02:12:17 PM

Title: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Akalsaris on June 27, 2009, 02:12:17 PM
Arsenic & Old Lace: The Poison Handbook
And we're all out of lace...

(http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/3204/thedeathofsocratesphilog.jpg)

This is a handbook to using mundane poisons in D&D.

Table of Contents:
1. Intro and Table of Contents (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?action=post;msg=162784;topic=4854.0;sesc=ad6577e69887b71d3de1b6ebf543d317)
2. Links (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4854.msg162786#msg162786)
3. Poison: How does it Work? (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4854.msg162786#msg162786)
4. Skills, Poison Tips and Tricks, Finding and making poisons (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4854.msg162787#msg162787)
5. Races (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4854.msg162788#msg162788)
6. Classes (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4854.msg162788#msg162788)
7. Prestige Classes (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4854.msg162788#msg162788)
8. Feats (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4854.msg162789#msg162789)
9. Familiars, animal companions, purchasable mounts (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4854.msg162789#msg162789)
10. Equipment (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4854.msg162789#msg162789)
11. Spells (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4854.msg162789#msg162789)
12. Poisons listed by material, cost, damage or effect, special books. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4854.msg162790#msg162790)
13. Sample characters (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4854.msg162791#msg162791)
14. Other (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4854.msg162792#msg162792)

Last update:
Wed, July 1st, 2009: Added suggestions, corrected spelling errors, added picture to top
Thursday, Sept. 10th, 2009: Added suggestions, added material from Serpent Kingdoms, fixed formatting errors.
Tuesday, Oct. 13th, 2009: Added lots of suggestions, drugs, new sample characters, sleep-smoke, and the poison capsule retainer.
Wed, Nov. 18th, 2009: Replaced image at top.  Tomorrow I'll add another PrC and hopefully cover a bit on Pathfinder as well.
Wed, Nov. 25th, 2009: Cleaned up the guide a bit, added links to the table of contents, some minor edits for clarity and whatnot.
Monday, April 5th, 2010: Major update!  Added several new links, 3 new and complete builds, clarified and updated some builds, added the Binder class, added in the poisons from Sandstorm and some online poisons (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/al/20041208a), fixed up and rearranged the formatting in the Poisons section, and added several new poisons for Minor and Major Creation.
Wednesday, April 7th: Supplemental update - edited all sections for clarity and brevity, added some poisons I had left out of charts previously.
Title: Links, Overview
Post by: Akalsaris on June 27, 2009, 02:15:01 PM
2. Links

SRD Links:
Poison (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Poison)
Poisons (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Poisons)
Fabricate (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Fabricate)
Artifice domain  (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Artifice_Domain)
Jungle Halflings (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/UA:Jungle_Halflings)

The Big Chart of Poisons on GitP: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63130) A chart of many poisons, however it is also out of date and incomplete.  Useful for quick comparisons, however.

Trouserfang Dwarf Build (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=727527): A build that uses poison for hilarious results!

Minor Creation and You: (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=747757) Goes over some of the creative uses for Minor Creation.

The Avenger PrC, a non-evil assassin: (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a) An Assassin variant.

Craft (Poison-making) for money-making: (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4849.0) Using Salvo from C. Scoundrel to make money by abusing Craft (Poison-making)'s faster craft times.

For fun from the Order of the Stick:
High level wizard taken out by Dragon Bile poison! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0712.html)
Oh yeah, Black Lotus poison - that's the good stuff! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0435.html)

COMPLETE POISON-USING BUILDS from various Iron Chef challenges:

Ilphaid Shiiralice (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9940231&postcount=166), by T.G. Oskar  
LE Male Drow Rogue 3/Monk 2/Master of Masks 1/Assassin 8/Child of Night 4.  An elegant build that combines stealth, sneak attack, death attack, and poison's ability damage to great effect.  Between Increase Virulence, Venomous Strike and Aleval School, his poisons have +2 to DC and -4 to saves, which then benefit his Death Attack, especially with Con-damaging poisons.

Ruszel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9111609&postcount=109), by Draz74.
LE Human Factotum 8/Beastmaster 1/Assassin 1/Snakelord 7/Uncanny Trickster 3.  A build that fills the damage-dealer and scout/high-skills roles in a party. Ruszel has access to poisons through summoned snakes (easily transformed into gargantuan-sized snakes!), purchased and trained snakes, and a Druid 16 snake animal companion, as well as his own poisons from Snakelord's Wild Aspect.  His specialty is assigning constrictor snakes to grapple opponents, making the foes flat-footed for him to then sneak attack.

Sway, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9111589&postcount=106) by WinWin.  
CE Yuan-ti Pureblood, 4 Monstrous HD/Bard 2/Snake Lord 10/Soul Eater 1/Cloaked Dancer 3.  Just as a sidenote, I love this character.  Sway is a "party face" who also fills the crowd control and damage-dealer roles quite effectively.  She has a natural poison, access to poisons through summoned and charmed snakes, and also drains levels with every natural attack through Soul Eater.  Her animal companion is a Sailsnake, which flies and spits blinding venom in a 20ft cone.  Also take note of Amphisbaena, her quintessential poison-user's weapon!

Hugo Clopin, by Akal-Saris. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146583&page=6)
NE Strongheart Halfling Beguiler 5/Mindbender 1/Psionic Assassin 1/Psibond Agent 10/Magical Trickster 3.  See post #174 for the build.  Hugo is near-undetectable and mentally controls minions and opponents at-will from 100ft away, and uses poisons to weaken foes' saves, poison his minions' weapons, and to dispose of dominated opponents in a classy way.

Danny and Rusty (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146583&page=7), by FishAreWet.  Changeling Rogue 1/ Psion (Shaper) 7/ Black Dog 2/ Psibond 8 / Ghost 2.  See post #187 for build.  The build ingeniously uses true mind switch and psionics to both create poisons and the minions to deliver them.

Jorath, the Hand of Annihilation (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142470&page=4), by Akal-Saris.  
LE Human Paladin of Tyranny 4/Hexblade 4/Blackguard 7/Entropomancer 5.  See Post #116.  A straightforward tank build that debuffs saving throws of nearby opponents by about -8 to -14, so that opponents are almost guaranteed to fail their saving throws against poisons.

Nicolo Egidi (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=158633&page=6), by Amphetyron.
LE Halfling Rogue 1/Hexblade 4/Black Dog 5/Green Star Adept 10.  See Post #155.  A jack-of-all-trades build that is a decent tank and debuffer as well.  With empower poisons, dhurinda's touch, and poison spell, he can apply poisons in several different ways (including a slam attack), and he has a wide array of resistances and armor from green star adept.  

Aesc Duan Dee, by Zaq.
Chaotic Neutral Uurkrau Illumian Rogue/Binder/Warlock/Ranger/Swordsage/Warblade/Trapsmith/Disciple of Thrym/Sand Shaper/Ardent Dilettante.   Part 1 (story) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10175478&postcount=147) and Part 2 (crunch) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10175488&postcount=148).  The most complicated build listed here, Aesc primarily fills the scout and damage roles, but between vestiges, spell-casting, maneuvers, and psionic powers, he is really quite the jack-of-all-trades.  He creates poisons with Minor Psionic Creation and delivers them through touch spells laced with Poison Spell.  Interestingly enough, Aesc is not immune to poisons, but instead relies on the Naberius vestige to heal any ability damage taken from accidentally exposing himself to poisons.


3. Poison: How does it work?

You can poison a weapon or natural weapon as a standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity, and you have a 5% chance when applying it to poison yourself (still getting a save).  You also might poison yourself if you roll a 1 in combat with a poisoned weapon and then fail a DC 15 reflex save.

You can avoid all of that trouble by getting poison use as a class or racial ability, or through taking the Master of Poisons feat, or through immunity to the poisons you use, or through having very high fortitude and reflex saves.

In general, you want a poison that complements your party strategy.  You also need a steady supply of cheap poison, either through magically creating it or from an item/spell/friendly animal.  Most poison users are good de-buffers, since status effects such as shaken and sickened lower saving throws, which make poisons more effective, and poisons that damage con/dex/wis lower saving throws, making debuffs and save-or-die abilities more effective, which leads to a very effective cycle between poisons, debuffs, and crowd control.

Low levels (1-5): This is when poisons are best.  Crowd control is often the key to low level encounters, so those DC 14 blinding, sleep, or nauseating poisons are the best choice here.  Crafting poisons will probably take a steady stream of gold out of your income at this point, especially if you lack the raw materials.

Mid levels (6-12): At this point you really need to look for the high save DC poisons to maintain their effectiveness, or otherwise focus on a high number of attacks per round with poisoned weapons.  At this level most of the crowd control poison DCs are too low, so its better to focus on ability damage.   However, most magical ways to create poisons for free are also available at this point.

Higher levels (13+): By higher levels a lot of creatures are going to easily make the fortitude saves for any DC under 20, and many opponents at these levels are immune to poison.  However, the relative cost of poisons declines considerably with higher WBL, so you can also use poisons more liberally than before.  

How important are poisons?
One of the basic things to understand is that poison use has a high initial return, but a low return for more investment.  For example, spending 8 skill ranks and a feat to use and make poisons provides a lot of power, but spending 23 skill ranks and five feats will generally only make your poisons moderately better.  

So it's important to understand the opportunity cost of poison-related feats and abilities - even if you use poisons in every fight, often power attack or quicken spell will be a better feat choice than Poison Master, for example.  Likewise, if I were making a poison-using wizard, I would take Red Wizard or Incantatrix over the Alchemical Savant, because the rewards are greater over time.  

For example, if you're a 9th level druid and have 4-5 skill ranks to spare, investing in poisons is simply good thinking.  Almost any non-good wizard who is 7th level should learn minor creation.  Anyone playing a warforged, undead, or dragonwrought kobold also can use poisons without giving up anything for the ability.

To sum up: I don't recommend specializing in poisons unless you want to be thematic.  Poisons - like levels in fighter - are best as a small dip to increase the power of many builds, but generally shouldn't be the main focus of a build.

Poison: its Pros and Cons:

Pro:

Con:
Title: Skills, Tricks and Tips
Post by: Akalsaris on June 27, 2009, 02:15:31 PM

Skills:


Poison: Tricks and Tips

Weapons - Injury and Contact Poisons
Contact and injury poison can be applied to a weapon as a standard action, and it lasts until the weapon hits something.  Injury poison is almost always cheaper and easier to make than contact poison.

In general, the best use is probably poisoned arrows or thrown weapons, since then every attack will be poisoned without wasting actions in combat.  Color your arrow shafts and fletches to easily identify your poisons.  Try to retrieve them after a fight if cost is an issue.  

Inhaled poisons
These are a 10ft ranged attack, not a ranged touch attack.  You can attack a floor or table easily enough however.  The Launch Object cantrip is spectacular for giving a much longer range on this attack: 110 feet at a minimum.  Inhaled poisons almost always are harder to make and have a lower save DC than their counterparts, but they are best against groups of enemies or foes whose normal AC is too high to hit normally (in which case a Dex-damaging inhaled poison might be a good idea).

Ingested poisons
A mister (DoTU equipment) can spray an ingested poison into somebody's face, but in general these are not usable in combat.  But combined with charm spells, diplomacy, or simple back-stabbing (figuratively!), they can be effective.  They are usually much easier to create and have weaker initial effects, but stronger secondary effects.

Secondary effects
Remember that a creature must save against the secondary effect even if it succeeds the first one.  Most combats in D&D don't run for 10 rounds, so I always give priority to the primary effect over the secondary.  The Virulent enhancement (DoTU) reduces the wait to 5 rounds for contact and injury poisons, however, while the Lolth's Caress feat can force the secondary effect as a standard action.  In either of those cases, it becomes more valuable.

Ways to get poisons

The major balancing point against poison is its cost.  Wyvern venom might be awesome, but at 3,000 gold a pop, that's the same cost as a young wyvern!  Therefore the first thing any poison user needs to do is find a reliable source of poison. Below are some ideas to get you started.

Make it yourself: Progress is tracked in gold rather than silver pieces for the checks, and if you have easy access to the raw materials then the cost is only 1/6th of the base price.  

Easy base prices chart at 1/6th cost:
[spoiler]40g: 6.6g to make
100 gold: 16.6g to make
200g: 33.3g to make
300g: 50g to make
500g: 83.3g to make
1,000g: 166.6g to make
2,000g: 333.3g to make
3,000g: 500g to make[/spoiler]

Animals & Vermin: one of the most intuitive ways to get the base materials for poisons is to get them from animal companions, pets, etc.

According to Drow of the Underdark, it's a DC 15 Handle Animal check to get a vermin to bestow its venom into a container, and then a DC 15 Craft (Poisonmaking) check to distill the poison.  As a DM, I would require 1/6th of the cost of the poison to be paid as part of the DC 15 Craft (Poisonmaking) check to distill the poison.  It doesn't state the time required or the amount of poison that can be distilled per day, but one dose per day is a reasonable assumption.  As noted earlier, it requires the Vermin Handler feat to do this, or a related ability - presumably Wild Empathy or Vermin Empathy would also work for this.

Minor/Major Creation & Fabricate: make tons of plant-based poisons yourself for free (30,000 doses at the minimum caster level!).  Unfortunately it typically requires a 7th-9th level spellcaster.  The exception is the psion (shaper), which can use minor creation at 1st level.  

Find it: try to disable traps and such that have poisons, or get it from dead poisonous opponents.  If you make a habit of checking for poisons, most DMs will get the hint pretty soon.  

Black market: since poisons are generally found in the hands of the criminal underworld, one good way to get them is through role-playing.  Try and perform mini-quests for assassins' guilds, or strike a bargain with the local godfather.  Can potentially be cheaper and more fun than simply purchasing poisons.  

Locate Object:
this simple spell can help you find some components for your poisons during downtime.  Casting it while traveling, for example, can lead to the DM having you discover some new poisonous plants in the forest or dungeon.  In Pathfinder, casting Detect Poison every few minutes is also an option, since you have unlimited cantrip casting.

Survival: same as Locate Object, this can lead to some cheap and readily available poisons in an outdoor campaign.  There is no check listed for scavenging poisons, but DC 15 would be a reasonable house-rule.

Ways to make poisons last longer
Title: Races, Classes, Prestige Classes
Post by: Akalsaris on June 27, 2009, 02:15:47 PM
5.  Races:

Here are races that are naturally good at poisons.  Poison use as a base ability really is not as hot an ability as it first appears, since the Master of Poisons feat is superior to it.
6. Classes:

You should choose a class based on your primary role in the party, and then consider how poisons fit into that character idea.  A ninja gets poison use for free, for example, but I'd go with a rogue in the party over a ninja any day.  The ratings provided, however, reflect how well the class is able to create and make use of poisons.  

7. Prestige Classes:
[/list]
Title: Feats, Companions, Items, Spells
Post by: Akalsaris on June 27, 2009, 02:16:03 PM
8. Feats:

General

Master of Poisons DoTU: gain poison use, and apply poisons as a swift action without poisoning yourself or provoking AOO's.  Priceless.
Poison Expert CS: Raises the DC of a single type of poison (ingested, contact, inhaled, or injury) by 1.
Poison Master CS: Requires Poison Expert. Choose a type of poison (Injury, etc.), and add +1 to the dice effect for the initial and secondary effects.  Good for a focused poison user.
Poison Specialization Dragon 303 pg69 Prereq: Craft (poisonmaking) 5+ ranks.  Benefit: Whenever you create a poison of the chosen type, the Fortitude DC to resist the poison's effects increases by +2.
Poison Healer FC I: You heal damage equal to your constitution each time you make a fortitude save against poison.  Check out the Trouserfang Dwarf link for some fun with it.  If your DM agrees that alcohol is a poison, get ready for fun drunken healing!
Favored & Special Dispensation Cityscape: Special Dispensation lets you use items banned in a city, such as poison.  Favored is a weak pre-req feat, but Favored in House from the EBCS can also be substituted in its place.  
Animal Devotion CC: Grants you a poisonous bite attack - plus other awesome abilities.  I'd use the bite during downtime to poison my weapons, then use the feat in combat to fly.
Hidden Talent Expanded Psionics Pg. 67: This is a more high-powered variant of the Wild Talent feat that grants a single 1st level power 2/day.  Use it to take Psionic Minor Creation.  Thanks Havoc4 and Tomtomcat!
Lolth's Caress DotU: A divine feat that lets you spend a standard action to force the secondary effects of a poison on nearby poisoned opponents.  Great, especially with inhaled poisons or if you have poisonous vermin helping you spread the pain.
Poison Spell DoTU: This feat applies a poison to your touch spells.  It does come with one significant drawback (and, most likely, largely unintended), however: the poison becomes a material component for your spell, so duskblades will have to use one handed weapons without a way to avoid that; and poisons created through minor creation cannot be used as spell components, so you'll have to use mundane poisons with this feat.
Leadership: You can use it to get a cohort with the ability to create poison (a wyvern, wizard, etc), and have your followers work as secret poisoner cells in your hidden fortress.  As broken as always if you're willing to do the book-keeping required.
Wild Cohort: (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) Use it to gain a animal companion to provide the raw materials for poisons.  I think it'd be especially worth it at low levels for a rogue as a poison dispenser and flanking buddy.  Thanks Prime32!

Crafting
Skill Focus (Poison-making): Useful only for low-level followers - you have better things to spend feats on, like improved initiative and feats that help in combat.
Apprentice (Craftsman) feat DMG II Appraise & Knowledge (arch & eng) become class skills.  Gain two skill points for those two skills.  +2 competence all Craft.  10% discount on raw materials for ALL Craft skills & item creation feats.  Probably blue for artificers and some wizards, as well as a feat for low level followers.  Note that Knowledge (arch & eng) has applications with Major Creation and Fabricate as well, and since this feat eventually turns into Mentor (Leadership Lite), it will be useful later on as well.  Thanks to Cavalry Medic for this and other crafting feat suggestions!
Mercantile Background (FRCS) - start with extra money that could be spent on poison, or that poison lab.  Good in a 1-shot game or on a follower.
Exceptional Artisan EBCS – [item creation feat] -25% time for *any* crafting.  Like Apprentice (Craftsman) this is great for a dedicated crafter, but probably not worth it otherwise.
Extraordinary Artisan EBCS – [item creation feat] -25% gp for any crafting
Mark of Making EBCS: the lesser and greater feats grant minor creation and fabricate, letting any class pull off wizard shenanigans with poisons.  Heavy feat investment though.
Vermin KeeperDoTU: Vermin-based poisons are decent but not too exciting - probably not worth it unless you were actually going to be a nature-based drow in the first place.  But at least the poisons you can make will be dirt cheap!

Sneak Attack
Venomous Strike: DoTURequires 2d6 sneak attack.  Sacrifice 1d6 sneak attack damage for +2 to the DC of your poison.
Sickening Strike: DoTU Requires 2d6 sneak attack.  Sacrifice 1d6 sneak attack to make your opponent sickened (-2 to saves).
Terrifying Strike: DoTU Requires 2d6 sneak attack.  Sacrifice 1d6 sneak attack to make your opponent shaken (-2 to saves).

Natural Poisons
Ability Focus (Poison): for creatures with their own poison attacks.
Virulent Poison Savage Species: requires a poison attack as a special ability, but adds +2 to that poison's DC.
Deadly Poison Savage Species: requires Virulent Poison, but doubles the secondary ability damage dealt by your natural poison.  Combined with Poison Master and Lolth's Caress, this could get brutal quickly.
Venom's GiftCC & Serpent's Venom CD: wild feats to gain poisonous attacks.  Like most wild feats, these don't last long enough to be worth taking for most characters.

9. Animal companions:
1st:
Snake, Medium Viper: a pretty weak choice.
Sea Snake, Medium: Stormwrack also weak, but slightly better with +2 to the DC of the bite.
Stingray Stormwrack: the poison is quite excellent (DC 12 or nauseated for 1d4 hours, on a successful save sickened for 1d6 rounds), so this is a decent low-level companion for an aquatic game or for a druid that takes it during downtime to get poisons, and uses another companion while adventuring.  
Swindlespitter: MMIIIThis is a dinosaur with a blinding poison, and probably the best combat choice for this level if the DM allows dinosaurs.

4th:

Fleshraker Dinosaur MM3: An awesome choice - pounce, grapple, rend, and poison!

7th:
Snake, Huge Viper: A good grappler with constrict, but the poison DC is low.  A sea snake adds +2 to the poison DC and can swim as well.

13th:
Giant Banded LizardSandstorm: a huge grappler with a decent poison (DC 21, 2d4/2d4 Strength).  

Familiars:
Tiny Viper: DC 10, 1d6/1d6 Con damage, and +3 to bluff checks.
Sea Snake (Tiny) Stormwrack: DC 12, 1d6/1d6 Con damage.  Strictly superior to a viper.

Improved familiars and similar:

Homunculus (7th): a scout with a decent poison, though I'd rather have the imp.  DC 14 - sleep for 1 minute, then DC 14 or sleep for 5d6 minutes.  It's a good option for artificers .
Imp (7th level): besides being a good utility familiar and scout, you can use its weak dex poison just by asking for it.  DC 14, 1d4/2d4 Dex damage.  Plus he's immune to poison, so he can shoot black lotus slathered darts for you later on.  
Pseudodragon (7th): immune to sleep and paralysis, but you need to be neutral good.  Also has a DC 14 sleeping poison you can ask for from it.  But it's something you can probably use as a good-aligned character.

Purchasable Creatures:
  
Wyvern A&EG: at 3,000 GP for a young wyvern, it's a good deal.  Useful as a mount as well, obviously.

Spider Eater MM: 2,000g for an egg, a flying mount with poison.

Giant Wasp A&E, MM: 750g for a larvae, but wasps aren't that great.  Still, it's pretty cheap.

Monstrous Scorpion, Huge A&E, MM: 1,000g for an egg.  Not bad at all!

Adamantine SpiderDoTU: you can create these constructs for 5,450g or buy them for 10,900g, and they can be upgraded as well.  Each one can carry a single dose of poison that it injects with its bite attack.  Good for an artificer.

Warbeast creatures:MMII This extremely template can be applied to any animals or vermin, which conveniently gives a price for warbeast animals.  So find something with a poison you like and buy a warbeast version of it if you can.  In general animals purchased this way will be stronger AND cheaper than any other method, and therefore also much more likely to be disallowed.


10. Equipment and Magic Items:

Special materials & modifications:
Chaos Flask Planar Handbook: A 100g flask containing raw chaos that you can shape into a temporary dose of poison with a DC 13 Wisdom check.  Very versatile, but requires some DM oversight if a dose of poison constitutes a single 'object', and also must be used within 1-2 minutes for most characters.  Shapesand from Sandstorm is another similar material that can be turned into poisons easily.
Spiderblood, Drow A&E: a drink, not a poison.  Those used to the wine ignore its effects, but others take some con damage.  Good for the classic "I drank the wine, so you know it's safe" cliche (And remember: never go up against a Sicilian when death is on the line!)
Breathing Hood DoTU: 70g for a hat that gives +8 to saves against inhaled poisons.  Buy some for your party members if you use inhaled poisons such as sleep-smoke frequently.
Mister DoTU: 150g for a way to hit an opponent with an ingested, injury, or contact poison as a ranged touch attack from 5ft away.  Gives a DC 15 reflex check against ingested poisons and injury poisons only work on wounded opponents, but still a great item.
Hilt Hollow Dungeonscape: good for carrying hidden poisons and for getting them out as a swift action.  At 200g, it's cheap too.  
Oil Chamber Dungeonscape: lets you spray oil, etc. from your weapon as a swift action. Poisons as well, but you're automatically exposed, so it's only worthwhile if you're immune to the poison.  Costs 1,000g, so it's this or a spyglass.
Weapon Capsule Retainer and Triple Weapon Capsule Retainer C. Adventurer: For 100g or 450g, this allows you to store up to three injury poisons in a melee or thrown weapon.  As a swift action, you can apply 1, 2 or all 3 of the injury poisons held to the weapon.  While its probably unintentional that you can use this to stack 3 poisons at once, even without that ability this allows a poison user to quickly switch poisons on a melee weapon, or replace them in the middle of a fight, effectively granting the speedy poisoning ability of the Master of Poisons feat to anyone who has the normal Poison Use ability.  

Magic items:
Assassination Cityscape Web Enhancement:  (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070314a)A +1 enhancement that grants 1d6 sneak attack and increases the save DC of any poison it delivers by the weapon's enhancement bonus (so +4 to the DC if it's a +4 Assassination Sword, etc.).  Lastly, The wielder never risks poisoning herself when applying poison to an assassination weapon.  This is the biggest DC booster for poisons!
Venomous MIC: a +1 weapon enhancement that gives a weapon a weak poison 3/day as a swift action.  Not worth getting in most cases.
Virulent DoTU: A +1 weapon enhancement that reduces the duration for contact and injury poisons down to 5 rounds before the second save.  Excellent.
Toxic DoTU: A +1 weapon enhancement that makes a poison last for 2 rounds per hit instead of a single round.  Excellent.

+1 Feycraft Assassination, Toxic, Virulent Dagger, Triple Weapon Capsule Retainer, Hilt Hollow, and a Tooth of Leraje: 33,803g, 650g, and 20,000g for a weapon that's +5 to hit and damage, +5 to poison save DC, allows you to use poisons without poisoning yourself, you can apply poison to the weapon 4/encounter as a swift action, the poisons last for 2 hits each, and the secondary save is in 5 rounds rather than 10 rounds.  

Other:
Collar of Venom BoVD: granting all natural attacks a d10 poison effect seems like a good deal to me!  The only problem is the low DC and the high cost.  The Collar of Virulent Venom gets the DC to 20, but is ridiculously expensive.  Still, either collar would be an insane combination with Venomfire for a druid in wildshape.
Poison Fangs Serpent Kingdoms: For 8,000 gold, give yourself poisonous fangs for free poison!  The DC scales with your level and Con modifier, which helps this scale much better than many abilities.  
Arrow of Biting MIC: Ah, memories of 2nd edition!!  Anyhow, this has a decent poison, and is cheap enough for artificers to craft if they've focused on Craft Arms & Armor or have other cost reducers.  
Amber Amulet of Vermin MIC: 700g to summon a huge scorpion 1/day.  I've gotten this item banned in arenas before.  Besides wiping the floor of anything you face at 2nd level, it also gives you a source for some DC 18, 1d6/1d6 Con damage poison.  Later errrata'd to a large scorpion.
Toxic Gloves MIC: good as a cheap source of decent con-draining poison 3/day.  
Spider Rod MIC: A melee touch attack with the poison spell all day long, plus a few uses of an entangling net effect.  Decent for the price.


11. Spells:

In general, any spell that reduces an oppponents' saves is good along with poisons.  Shaken, sickened, level drained, and cursed opponents all are more likely to succumb to poisons, for example.  

0 Level

1st Level

2nd Level

3rd:

4th:


5th:

6th:


7th:

8th:

9th:
Title: Poisons: listed by highest initial dmg, etc
Post by: Akalsaris on June 27, 2009, 02:16:19 PM
12. Poisons:

This lists some of the best poisons in the various 3.0 and 3.5 books out there.  Black Lotus Poison gets all the attention, but there is actually a wide variety of poisons that are good to use, even if you only use Minor Creation.  

My favorite poisons are:
Black lotus poison, drow poison, sleep-smoke, stun gas, roach paste, yew, belladonna, good-bye kiss, spotted toadstool venom, sassone leaf residue, sinmaker's surprise, darklight brew, (greater) sskalor venom, pit fiend venom, elemental rime, siren's breath, stingray venom, and crystal scorpion venom.  About half of these are craftable using Minor Creation, while many others are easy to find or very cheap to make, and others provide excellent status effects like stunning, exhaustion, and nauseate, while a few simply have high amounts of stat damage and high DCs.  

Poisons by lowest base cost
Terrific buys for their value.  These are listed at market value, not cost to create - so with the materials on hand, they would instead cost 1/6th the listed price here.

Minor Creation and Major Creation: Plant and mineral based poisons

For GOOD-aligned adventurers and crowd control: Sleep, paralysis, unconsciousness, and other non-lethal poisons listed by save DC

Real World Poisons in D&D:

Poisons by highest damage on initial hit (non-epic)

Strength

Dexterity

Constitution

Intelligence

Wisdom

Charisma

Straight damage/other damage:

Poisons by highest DC (Most can be found on Pg. 129 of Dungeonscape)
... after this are about 10 more poisons from 3.0 gargantuan and colossal vermin that range in the 40's and 30's.  I'm going to avoid listing all of those iterations, as they are errata'd to much lower DCs in Dungeonscape.  44 is basically the highest save DC now.

Unique & Useful Poisons

Arms & Equipment Guide:
These poisons are listed on pages 37 and 38. There are 20-30 poisons in A&EG, but most of them are quite mundane.

Book of Exalted Deeds:
this book has ravages, which are good-aligned poisons.  I think the very idea is ridiculous, but who asked me?

Book of Vile Darkness

Complete Scoundrel:


Drow of the Underdark:
Page 94 lists various poisons and magical poisons. Definitely some of the most creative and varied in any sourcebook.

Magic-infused poisons from DoTU: These require a spell cast when making them, but are much stronger than normal poisons.  

Dungeonscape:
Greater poisons: these are poisons from advanced creatures such as gargantuan scorpions.  No craft DC is listed, but it can be extrapolated from the save DC and cost.

Libris Mortis:
positoxins are poisons that affect undead, only they are made with Alchemy.  They are expensive to make, but hey, it's something.  They need the help of a positive-energy channeling character though.

Races of Faerun: only 2 poisons in this book, but both are good.

Stormwrack: See page 13


Sandstorm: See page 24.

Online:
Taxine  (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/al/20041208a)(Yew tree poison): This is very handy, since it's easy to acquire and likely very cheap.  No listed craft DC - it appears this is the base poison simply for eating the bark or leaves of the yew tree.
Taxine (yew tree poison): Ingested DC 13; initial damage 1d2 Con; secondary damage 2d6 Con; additive effects (taxine builds up in the system; each subsequent dose of taxine adds +2 to the Fort save DC to resist the poison's effect and adds +1d2 Con damage to the secondary damage); price 100 gp.  Thanks Garryl!  

Kiss of the Grave: (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fey/20030411a) a fairly weak initial poison (1d4 Con damage), but its secondary damage makes immortal creatures mortal. It also makes them unable to be raised or resurrected, and takes a Wish or Miracle to remove the effect. Contact poison, DC 20.  Thanks Garryl!  

The Epic Level Handbook Web Enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20021110a)
These poisons all require the Epic Poison Crafter Feat (so level 27+).  However, they are immune to all magical effects to prevent or avoid poisons.  The Godsblood poison seems to be the only one with a fortitude save that creatures at this level might actually fail.

Courtesy of Ed-Zero
[spoiler]
Poison: Chaos Ichor
Type: Contact DC 22
Initial: 1d4 Str
Secondary: 2d6 Str
Price: 330,000gp
DC to Create: 53

Poison: Lyzeum
Type: Injury DC 25
Initial: 1d6 Dex
Secondary: 3d6 Dex
Price: 390,000gp
DC to Create: 59

Poison: Illis thyr
Type:Injury DC 28
Initial: 2d4 Con
Secondary: 4d4 Con
Price: 450,000gp
DC to Create: 65

Poison: Milk of Atropos
Type: Injury DC 32
Initial: 2d8 Str
Secondary: 4d8 Str
Price: 590,000gp
DC to Create:  79

Poison: Godsblood
Type: Injury DC 40
Initial: 1d6 Int
Secondary: 3d6 Int
Price: 820,000gp
DC to Create:  102[/spoiler]

Serpent Kingdoms:

This has a large selection of poisons.  

The various smoke poisons (some of which are listed above in the lists) have a unique mechanic - unlike other inhaled poisons, these fill a 50-ft square for 4 hours or 5 rounds with the poison, which also acts as a nonmagical fog cloud spell.  

Want to fill a 50ft square with 3d6 Strength damage that isn't magical in any way?  This is where you want to go then.  They have some unique effects as well - Duthlah'hass has a 2d6 minute Feeblemind effect, easily the coolest one.  The smokes also act as BUFFS to Scaled Ones, a large category that includes kobolds and anything reptile-like that isn't a dragon (so dinosaurs, etc).  So any kobold can just light these suckers up and enjoy free buffs while his party and enemies all run around dying.  The following poisons from the list are plant or mineral based for Creation spells: Battasss (Wis/Sleep), Duthlah'hass (Feeblemind), Ektharisss (1d6/1d4 Str).

Dragon Magazine #301, Pg. 58
This issue has an article on various alchemical items in the "Poisons and Malefics" section. Thanks Maat_Mons!
[spoiler]
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj206/Maat_Mons/PoisonsandMalefics2.jpg)
[/spoiler]

Other:

Drugs

Drugs are similar to poisons, except in 3 ways:
1. They require Craft (Alchemy) to create, but function like poisons, including initial and secondary effects over the period of a minute.
2. They have addictions that come with them, along with a variety of beneficial and damaging effects.  For example, a drug might give a +2 bonus to strength for an hour, but deal 4 wisdom damage.
3. If you're hit by the same drug twice within a specific period, you suffer an overdose effect, often quite debilitating.  

Specific drugs: (ignoring useless ones)
[spoiler]
Book of Vile Darkness:
Agony (liquid pain): Notable because it's also used as a material component or as a substitute for experience in spells.
Baccaran: Another ingested one, this time with a nice side benefit for clerics who take it.
Devilweed: It's a cigarette (or a joint).  You can create it with Minor Creation, but it has no particular combat use for you, though it is dirt cheap and gives a nice little strength buff, so I'd actually smoke them as a melee type and pretend to be Dirty Harry or something.  
Luhix: Jackpot!  This is an  injury drug (Fort DC 25 or -1 to all ability scores), and the overdose effect is death (Fort DC 25).  It's expensive, but also made from plant material, so you can make it with Minor Creation.  Use it as an expensive injury poison.
Terran Brandy: It's green alcohol that gives a solid CL buff, but it's expensive and the OD effect is weak.  Still, cute idea.

Lords of Darkness:
Kammarth: A contact poison, but only DC 10.  Still, 2 hits leaves an opponent paralyzed, and it's moderately cheap too.
Oruighen: Basically Mace.  Make a melee touch attack to throw tiny pellets at your opponent to blind him and give -2 to saves, skill checks, and attacks.  Only 20g!  
Rhul ("Battlewine"): It turns you into a barbarian!  Very useful, actually, even if the OD effect is pretty weak.
Sezarad Root: Ingested and a weak DC.  Weird, but kinda useful to munch on.

Conclusions: Luhix is the only one worthwhile as a standard poison, though some of the others have other uses.[/spoiler]
Title: Sample Characters
Post by: Akalsaris on June 27, 2009, 02:16:35 PM
14. Sample characters:

COMPLETE BUILDS from various Iron Chef challenges:

Hugo Clopin, by Akal-Saris. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146583&page=6)
NE Strongheart Halfling Beguiler 5/Mindbender 1/Psionic Assassin 1/Psibond Agent 10/Magical Trickster 3.  See post #174 for the build - it uses poisons while being almost undetectable and mentally controlling minions and opponents at-will from 100ft away.

Danny and Rusty (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146583&page=7), by FishAreWet.  Changeling Rogue 1/ Psion (Shaper) 7/ Black Dog 2/ Psibond 8 / Ghost 2.  See post #187 for build.  It uses true mind switch and psionics to make poisons and the minions to deliver them.

Jorath, the Hand of Annihilation (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142470&page=4), by Akal-Saris.  
LE Human Paladin of Tyranny 4/Hexblade 4/Blackguard 7/Entropomancer 5.  See Post #116.  A tank build.  Debuffs saving throws by about -8 to -14 so that opponents are almost guaranteed to fail their saving throws against poisons.

Nicolo Egidi (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=158633&page=6), by Amphetyron.  LE Halfling Rogue 1/Hexblade 4/Black Dog 5/Green Star Adept 10.  See Post #155.  A jack-of-all-trades build.  Was empower poisons, dhurinda's touch, and poison spell, he can apply poisons in several different ways (including a slam attack), and he has a wide array of resistances and armor from green star adept. 

Jungle Halfling Factotum 12 by JaronK

With Darkstalker, Poison Expert, Font of Inspiration X2, Poison Master, Sickening Strike, Terrifying Strike, using a Feycraft +1 Splitting Compound Longbow of Assassination.  Cast Greater Magic Weapon on your bow and go to town.  Use Inspiration Points to generate the necessary sneak attack, and Minor Creation for plenty of Black Lotus Poison.  It's DC 25, does 3d6+3 Con damage, and when you use your ambush feats the enemy is at -4 to saves, plus two attacks per turn force saves... so it's effectively DC 29 fort save on most attacks (and after one failure, the enemy won't stand a chance of succeeding).  And Splitting is of course an awesome enchantment for this as it effectively doubles your poison shots (plus you can poison your arrows in advance).  It might be advisable to take two levels of Swordsage for Assassin's Stance and other manuevers.

Saintx's Master of Shrouds
Human Cleric 1/Human paragon 2/Master of Shrouds 10
Notes: Uses the shadows that you can summon for shadow essence (from the DMG), which deals permanent str damage.  (Editor's note: Start with human paragon levels for the skills!)  Overall looks like a simple and very fun build to me.  I've played with a variant of this: Human Conjurer 1/Cloistered Cleric 2/Master of Shrouds 2.  Add in the Lolth's Caress feat to burn Turn Undead attempts to force immediate secondary effect saves for 2d6 more Str damage from Shadow Oil!

Saintx's Stormlord
Human Ranger 11/Stormlord 9
Notes: takes a lot of feats to qualify.  I also spent a lot of feats on twf and throwing.  Uses javelins.  Get a big snake animal companion to milk. Apply to all javelins which also count at +3 lightning burst thundering weapons for 2gp each.

The Simple Druid
Human Druid 19/Contemplative 1
Role: Unspecified, probably healer/tank
Use of poisons: at 1st level takes Master of Poisons, allowing him to use poisons from an animal companion or found using survival.  Starting at 11th, he has the Artifice domain, allowing him to create poisons magically, and he is immune to poisons starting at 9th level.  All feats are open (except Natural Spell and Skill Focus...).

The "I can apply 10 poisons in a round, what can you do?" Duskblade.
Human Duskblade 20
Role: party tank/damage

Feats:
1st hmn: Master of Poisons
1st char: Poison Spell
3rd char: Obtain Familiar
6th char: Improved Familiar
9th char: Smiting Spell
12th char: Arcane Strike
15th char: Arcane Disciple (Artifice domain)
18th char: Open

Use of poisons: at early levels can apply one dose of poison over multiple rounds with chill touch.  Then at 3rd can use his familiar's poisons as raw materials, and hit an opponent with 2 doses of poison in 1 round using Channel Spell with a poisoned touch spell and with a poisoned sword.  At 6th he can have a combat familiar or one with a stronger poison, who can also deliver a poisonous touch spell for him.  

At 9th he gains smiting spell, allowing him to release an extra touch spell in a fight (also carrying poison), and at 13th every opponent hit with the poisoned touch spell from channel spell in a full attack action is poisoned.  Later he rounds out the abilities with some common gish picks.  With channel spell, smiting spell, a spell storing weapon, a poisoned blade, and quick cast, he can hit 1 opponent with 5 poisons (and 4 touch spells) in a single round, and then apply 1 touch spell and poison to anyone else hit in that round.  Talk about going nova!

The Bag o' Potions Rogue
Human Rogue 1/Diviner 5/Unseen Seer 9/Alchemist Savant 5
Role: Skills/trap-finder

Feats:
1st hmn: Able Learner
1st char: Master of Poisons
2nd diviner bonus: Quick Draw (UA Fighter feats ACF)
3rd char: Two-weapon Fighting
6th char: Favored in House (Cannith)
6th diviner bonus: Rapid Shot (ACF)
9th char: Poison Spell
12th char: Brew Potion
15th char: Craven
18th char: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
BAB +9, CL 19, SA +4d6+20.
Use of poisons: actually uses alchemy instead of poisons.  He can use his familiar's poisons as raw materials starting at 2nd level, and later can fabricate poisons himself.  Basically, his schtick is throwing vials of poisons and alchemical substances with ranged touch attacks along with sneak attacks.  At 20th level with a BAB of +9, he can throw 5 spellvials a round, each one containing a 3rd level spell laced with poison from poison spell as well as a poison or alchemical substance mixed with it, as well as dealing 4d6+20 sneak attack on each hit (10d6 with hunter's eye or whatever that ranger spell is).   Plus, he casts as a 19th level wizard, you know - just for kicks.

The Summoner
Human Conjurer 3/Master Conjurer 2/Malconvoker 7/Master Conjurer +8
Role: Battlefield control

Feats:
1st hmn: Spell Focus (Conjuration)
1st char: Master of Poisons
1st conjurer bonus: Augment Summoning (UA ACF)
3rd char: Obtain Familiar (Sea Snake)
4th bonus: Skill Focus (Spellcraft)
6th char: Open
7th bonus: Skill Focus (Bluff)
9th char: Open
12th char: Open
15th char: Open
18th char: Open

Use of poisons: has a sea snake familiar, giving +3 to Bluff checks for Malconvoker, and providing a source of poison for the conjurer and his party early on.  He can handle the snake's venom without trouble, giving him a little extra boost in combat when he runs out of Grease spells early on.  Starting at 3rd level, the character can summon tanar'ri, which are immune to poisons, and give them poisoned weapons.  At 7th, he can start creating much more potent poisons for free with minor creation.  In short, with a minimum of investment (ranks in Craft, a feat, and possibly a familiar), the character makes his PrC  much more threatening.

Divine Summoner
Half-Drow Cleric 5/Malconvoker 7/Contemplative 8
Role: Battlefield control, healing

Feats:
1st char: Master of Poisons
3rd char: Spell Focus (Conjuration)
6th char: Augment Summoning
9th char: Lolth's Caress
12th char: Skill Focus (Knowledge: Religion)
15th char: Open
18th char: Open

Notes: Lolth's Caress is the highlight over an arcane build here - the cleric can force a secondary save as a standard action using a turn undead attempt.  This makes poisons such as Nitharit (0 initial/3d6 secondary) and Shadow Essence (1 str initial/2d6 str secondary) much more useful.

The Bad Toucher
Human Necromancer 3/Master Specialist 10/Red Wizard 5/Archmage 2
Role: Damage Dealer
Feats:
1st hmn: Tattoo Focus
1st char: Master of Poisons
1st bonus: Scribe Scroll
3rd char: Spell Focus (Necromancy)
4th bonus: Skill Focus (Spellcraft)
6th char: Poison Spell
6th bonus: GSF: Necromancy
9th char: Quicken Spell
12th char: Spell Focus (Conjuration)
15th char: Open
18th char: Open
18th bonus: Open
Use of poisons: uses Poison Spell infused touch spells from 60ft away, combining with circle magic to make the save DC for Poison impossibly high, as well as all the standard high level wizard tricks.  And you can coat your summoned undead in poisons too.  Would make a decent BBEG actually.

The Master Trap-Finder
Strongheart Halfling Wilderness Rogue 5 (UA variant)/Trapsmith 5/Scorpion Heritor 10
Role: Skills Master, especially trap-finder (8 skills/level from rogue and scorpion heritor, 6/level from trapsmith), with a ton of bonuses and spells to trap-finding and disarming.

Feats:
Just 1 required feat and Master of Poisons really.

Poison usage: can Fabricate poisons starting at 10th level.  Also becomes immune to scorpion venom and has some poison-related abilities at 5th and 9th level of scorpion heritor.  Sneak attack: +8d6.

The 1-Hit Kill
Human Rogue 5/Assassin 9/Dread Fang of Lolth 6
Role: Damage and skills
Feats:
1st hmn: Master of Poisons
1st char: Poison Expert (Injury)
3rd char: Venomous Strike
6th char: Poison Master (Injury)
9th char: Craven
12th char: Sickening Strike
15th char: Terrifying Strike
18th char: Open
Use of poisons:
Gains: +8d6+20 sneak attack and 3d6 sudden strike, +12 (+16) to poison DCs (+2 Dread Fang, +2 Poison Expert, +2 Venomous Strike, +2 Increase Virulence, -4 to saves from sickening and terrifying strike).

The character ambushes foes, reducing their saves by 4.  Then the poison (let's say it's Black Lotus) deals its Con damage, and then after that the death attack goes off, with -4+Con damage to saves from sickened/terrified and whatever con damage the opponent took.  And then damage, of course.

The Sword & Crossbow
This is a character I designed for the GITP forums to effectively fight with a sword in one hand and a crossbow in the other, but it makes pretty effective use of poisons.

[spoiler]
Kalimor Srune'lett, NE Half-Drow Fighter 1/Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 14/Swordsage 2
Actual levels: Rogue 1/Swashbuckler 1/Fighter 1/Rogue +1/SB +1/Rogue 1/SW +14
ACFs: Drow swashbuckler 7, Drow Rogue 1, Drow fighter 1 (All from Drow of the Underdark), Spell Sense (C. Mage Rogue 3)
Note: suffers from multi-class penalties - sorry, there's no avoiding this if you actually use those in your game.

Total BAB: +18, total sneak attack: 9-11d6+20 per hit, total HD: 15d10+3d6+2d8

Stats: 32 PB
Str: 12  
Dex: 18  
Con: 14  
Int: 14  
Wis: 8  
Cha: 8

Feats:
1st: Versatile Combatant (DoTU)
1st flaw: Point Blank Shot
1st flaw: Precise Shot
2nd bonus SB: Weapon Finesse
3rd fighter: Crossbow Sniper (PHB II)
3rd: Hand Crossbow Focus (DoTU)
6th: Daring Outlaw (C. Scoundrel)
9th: Craven (Champions of Ruin)
12th: Improved Critical (Rapier)
15th: Staggering Strike (DoTU)
18th: Improved Critical (Hand Crossbow)

Skills: 8+2 = 10 skills from the rogue list.  Probably Hide, Move Silently, Tumble, UMD, Listen, Spot, Search, Craft (Poison), Balance, Sleight of Hand.

Starting equipment (estimates): Composite Shortbow (35g), Studded Leather (30g), Rapier (20g), self-crafted drow poison x3 (75g)

How it all comes together:

1st level: You have Poison Use from your Drow rogue substitution, plus the feats to use a ranged weapon efficiently - so you basically just snipe with a short bow and pretend you don't have versatile combatant or a hand crossbow yet.  You also have 3 poisoned arrows which can potentially end an encounter by putting an opponent to sleep.

2nd level: Now you have weapon finesse and +1 BAB, so you can use a rapier without missing consistently.  So you become the party tank!  You can also afford a masterwork chain shirt, masterwork tools (mostly for crafting poisons and searching for traps, I'd assume), and lots more poisons.

3rd level: Now suddenly you have Dex to damage against flat-footed opponents (Drow fighter), as well as 1/2 Dex to damage with crossbows (Crossbow sniper), plus weapon focus and rapid reload with a hand crossbow.  

So at this point the tactic of charging in with a crossbow and rapier actually becomes viable - assuming no magical bonuses and a pair of masterwork weapons, you should be attacking at +5 for 1d6+2 and 1d6 SA (1d6+4 against flat-footed) with the rapier, and +6 for 1d4+2 and 1d6 SA (1d6+4 against flat-footed foes) with the crossbow.  In addition to whatever poisons you've applied to your bolts and rapier - I like Roach Paste and Drow Poison on most things.

For equipment, a pair of MW weapons is good, as is picking up a str-based composite longbow and some more varied and higher DC poisons.

4th-5th level: Nothing special here, Dex gets bumped.  For items, I'd get the Gloves of Dexterity ASAP, and some weapon crystals for quickdraw on your weapons is very helpful (MIC).

6th level: Daring Outlaw kicks into play, so you suddenly gain +1 Dodge to AC, but more importantly Sneak attack jumps from +1d6 to +3d6 damage.  A Ring of the Darkhidden (MIC) is a great asset to stealth at this point.

7th: Now you add your Int to damage with the rapier.  Adding the Assassination or Toxic/Virulent properties to your rapier to keep your poisons competitive is a good idea at this point.

8th: Dex gets bumped, adding to your damage, attacks, reflex, AC, and initiative.  If you can use the online addition to SB, you can also use Bluff to seduce people =)   The Ring of Anticipation (DoTU) is a good pick by this point, allowing you to roll 2x for initiative, helping to catch opponents flat-footed.

9th: Craven adds your character level to damage with sneak attacks, so you'll be dealing +4d6+9 (+4d6 +14 against flat-footed) with sneak attacks.  
The Bracers of Murder (DoTU) are a great pick at this point, allowing you to reroll 1's on sneak attacks, as well as gaining +2 to att/dmg against flat-footed foes.

11th: Drow swashbuckler kicks in, allowing you to 5-ft step as a swift action whenever you hit once with at least each weapon in a round.  Or you can keep Acrobatic Charge, but drow swashbuckler is a much more stylish effect in my mind.

12th: You now gain +4 on flanking from swashbuckler, and improved critical with the rapier

15th: Now whenever you critical with a rapier, the opponent is automatically slowed with no save, which should cut down on the mobility of anything trying to do Flyby Attack, or the deadliness of anything with nasty iterative attacks - such as practically every opponent you face by this point.

18th: Now your criticals with the hand crossbow will also slow opponents!  Also, Weakening Critical from SB kicks in, allowing you to deal 2 Str damage to a creature every critical - combine it with 3d6 Str damage from Dragon Bile or another Str-based poison and anything not immune will drop fast.

19th: Swordsage adds nicely to Will and reflex, along with Weapon Focus (Rapier) from Diamond Mind Focus, +1 Init, and 6 maneuvers and a stance.  Blood in the Water stance, Wolf Fang Strike, Sudden Leap, Pouncing Charge, Dancing Mongoose, Swift Invisibility, and Shadow Stride.

20th: Adds Assassin's Stance (or a mobility/senses ones) and probably Rabid Bear Strike.

Character roles and tactics:
The primary role is damage-dealer, which should be strong from 1st to 20th, but really increases in power at 3rd, 6th, and 9th level.  The character is also a strong skills-monkey and scout from 1st-6th, but will be less efficient in that role afterwards due to the SB's mediocre skills list.  The character is also a very solid tank, with 17d10+3d6 HP over the course of 20 levels - and as she gets weaker as a skills character her tanking should improve.  

Finally, the character has more versatility in tactics than most damage-based classes - he can switch between melee and ranged combat easily, and poison use allows him to attack ability scores directly instead of just damage, or deal Con damage along with HP damage to drop a foe even faster than normal.  Ideally, the character will function as the scout and tank, initiating every combat at the front line against flat-footed foes.

In PF, the character can maintain his role as skill-monkey from 1st to 20th.  

Other good feats to take:
Quick Draw (also opens up some skill tricks)
Apprentice (Craftsman or Criminal)
[/spoiler]


Sample followers:

Human Wizard 1
Stats: let's be optimistic and assume that the follower has a 14 int.
Skills: Craft (Poisonmaking) 4 ranks
Feats:
Skill Focus (Craft (Poisonmaking))
Master of Poisons
Familiar: Sea Snake
Spells:
Magecraft
Items: Masterwork tools
Check: take 10 for a DC 26 poison - enough to create any poison in the DMG except for Dragon Bile and Black Lotus extract.

Human Psion 1
Stats: let's be optimistic and assume that the follower has a 14 int.
Skills: Craft (Poisonmaking) 4 ranks
Feats:
Skill Focus (Craft (Poisonmaking))
Master of Poisons
Spells:
Psionic Minor Creation
Items: Masterwork tools
Check: take 10 for a DC 21 check, enough to magically create a cubic foot of Sassonne Leaf residue (DC 16 to resist, 2d12 damage/1d6 Con).

Human Expert 1 (For games with only NPC followers)
Stats: let's be optimistic and assume that the follower has a 14 int and 12 charisma.
Skills: Craft (Poisonmaking) 4 ranks, Handle Animal 4 ranks
Feats:
Skill Focus (Craft (Poisonmaking))
Vermin Trainer
Items: Masterwork tools
Check: take 10 for a DC 21 check, or take 10 on a handle animal check for a 15, enough to convince a trained vermin to bestow its poison.

Missing books:
Dragon Magazine
3rd party sourcebooks
Title: Other Stuff
Post by: Akalsaris on June 27, 2009, 02:16:50 PM
13. Other:

Ways to lower saves against poisons:
Sickened
Shaken
Hexblade's curse dark companion
Paladin of Tyranny's aura
Blackguard's aura

Ways to possibly increase the DC of poisons from animals/vermin:  (Thanks cru!)
Bear's Endurance, Bite of the Werebear, or other con boosts
Inspire Greatness for more HD

Vermin-related:
Arachnomancer (Underdark): gains spider-related abilities (wizard PrC).
Vermin Keeper (Underdark): Druid PrC that's all about the vermin.
Vestments of Vermin Shape (DMG II, 20,000 gold): lets you wildshape into vermin.
Root-Walker (Dungeonscape): druid ACF that lets you use wild empathy with vermin
Child of Winter (EBCS): lets animal-effecting spells affect vermin, and expands SNA list.
Vermin Companion (EBCS): gives you some crummy vermin companions.
Vermin Shape (EBCS): can wildshape into vermin.

End of the Handbook!

Please feel free to comment, add advice, etc.  This turned out to be a much bigger project than I ever anticipated, and there's plenty of material that I'm sure I've missed!
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: BowenSilverclaw on June 27, 2009, 06:43:51 PM
[ img ]*photobucket IMG-link*[ /img ] (without the spaces) ;)

Looking good so far :)
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Eldariel on June 27, 2009, 07:25:32 PM
You might want to toss Greater Planar Binding to the spell list too; it too can be used to snare a Pit Fiend. Looks nice, I'm so gonna link this in the Archery Handbook (once I get something done -.-).
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: awaken DM golem on June 27, 2009, 08:05:34 PM
V nice.

Ardent and even Divine Mind  :p , can use the Creation Mantle or Substitute Powers, to do what a Psion Shaper does at level 1.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Soda on June 27, 2009, 08:28:58 PM
Like the title.  :thumb
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Havok4 on June 28, 2009, 12:20:23 AM
Very nice guide. I will likely find it useful with my character (warforged psion (shaper) with max ranks in alchemy). Do you know of any way to determine the craft DC of poisons not listed in complete adventurer or in the Arms and Equipment guide?

Also using poison is not inherently evil as far as I can tell. It is most definitely not lawful but nowhere in the DnD books I have read is the use of poison considered an inherently evil act. Although the forces of evil do use poison more often then good aligned people. If throwing a fireball and burning people to death is not inherently evil then saying that throwing a splash weapon of minor created poison at the same enemy is evil creates some inconsistency.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: telehax on June 28, 2009, 04:15:43 AM
Very nice guide. I will likely find it useful with my character (warforged psion (shaper) with max ranks in alchemy). Do you know of any way to determine the craft DC of poisons not listed in complete adventurer or in the Arms and Equipment guide?

Also using poison is not inherently evil as far as I can tell. It is most definitely not lawful but nowhere in the DnD books I have read is the use of poison considered an inherently evil act. Although the forces of evil do use poison more often then good aligned people. If throwing a fireball and burning people to death is not inherently evil then saying that throwing a splash weapon of minor created poison at the same enemy is evil creates some inconsistency.

1. Book of Vile Deeds has another list, and most of the poisons published post-complete adventurer print their craft DC.

2. Book of Exalted Deeds claims it's inherently evil IIRC.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Havok4 on June 28, 2009, 05:42:16 AM

1. Book of Vile Deeds has another list, and most of the poisons published post-complete adventurer print their craft DC.

2. Book of Exalted Deeds claims it's inherently evil IIRC.
1. Thank you, but what I am looking for is the craft DC of Greensickness as it is a plant based poison and therefore capable of being made via minor creation, and it is inhaled so it is usable in combat and has a DC 33 save, which makes it an excellent combat poison to use for free with the right magic. But I need to find the DC first, or find some method to generate it.

2.I just saw that section in the BoED and the reasons given for the inherent evil of poisons seems shaky at best. They claim that poisons are inherently evil because it causes undue suffering in the act of killing or incapacitating the enemy. This seems somewhat illogical, as ramming a sword through someone's chest several dozen times is not undue suffering compared to a round of poison which can leave the person alive afterward. So you are right that according to the book of exalted deeds it is evil but nowhere else in the many rulebooks that I have read is that stated. And it seems downright hypocritical to state poisons are evil just before the section where they detail the ravages which are functionally identical to poisons. I actually could easily get around that restriction of poison being evil by mixing in some minor created opiates or a similar substance to the poisons as it would make the experience pleasant.

Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: telehax on June 28, 2009, 06:38:38 AM
1. Sorry, can't help you there.
2. It might be that what is good and evil is determined by society's opinions of it, sadly. In real life there's a huge stigma against it, I assume in DnD it's similar. So if what decides what is good and evil is irrational, we're stuck with an irrational classification of poison as evil. :(

By the way, Breath of the Jungle is listed as level 2, it's level 1 in SpC.
I also note Salvo (Complete Scoundrel) is not listed, it's a low craft DC poison that *anyone* without an int penalty can make, it also has fun effects.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Havok4 on June 28, 2009, 06:46:39 AM
The aspect of the moral issue of poisons in DnD that irritates me the most is the double standard that is applied. Breaking your enemy's bones with a bludgeoning weapon during combat is not inflicting undue suffering while poisoning them for a quick and relatively painless disablement or death is undue suffering. By the same logic sneak attacks and save or die spells which are often associated with evil to an even greater degree than poison are not inflicting undue suffering. But this is found only in the books of exalted deeds so my DM will probably not bring it up so it is not an issue for me.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: The_Mad_Linguist on June 28, 2009, 08:01:12 AM
Just voluntarily fail your knowledge check and think all your potions are technically called "ravages".  Problem solved.


Yeah, the BoED, BoVD, and FCII have the stupidest alignment-related rules ever.  Morality designed by committee.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Akalsaris on June 28, 2009, 09:41:06 AM
Wow, thanks for the fast responses everyone!

I'll be sure to add the additional information, especially the psionic stuff (which I am woefully uninformed about, unfortunately).

Personally, I don't particularly like how poisons are generally evil in D&D 3.5, but I also don't think most good-aligned characters would use poisons.  Just in case, however, I provided a list of poisons that cause non-deadly status effects such as unconsciousness or sleep, which I think at least neutral good characters should be able to use cautiously. 

Please keep adding any unique poisons or related things that you come across in less-common books!
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Cavalry_Medic on June 28, 2009, 02:35:44 PM
Some notes from my personal Poison-themed notes that you may find useful....

Alchemist Savant PrC (MoE p53)
Master Alchemist PrC (MoF p34-35)
Maester PrC (CAdv)
Apprentice (Craftsman) feat (DMG II) Appraise & Knowledge (arch & eng) become class skills.  I gain two skill points for those two skills.  +2 competence all Craft.  10% discount on raw materials for ALL Craft skills & item creation feats.
Mercantile Background (feat) - start with extra money that could be spent on poison, or that poison lab.
Exceptional Artisan – [item creation feat] -25% time for *any* crafting (PGtE)  I don't think it specifies magical crafting.
Extraordinary Artisan – [item creation feat] -25% gp for any crafting (PGtE)  Ditto.
Legendary Artisan - [item creation feat] -25% xp for any crafting (PGtE)  Ditto.
Craft Expertise – [Drg 339] When using a craft check to make items “by the day” or “week”, you generate 2x the normal value
ACF Bard (DotU) – Bardic Knowledge for Poison Use
ACF Rogue (DotU) – Trap finding for Poison Use
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Akalsaris on June 28, 2009, 06:04:55 PM
Thanks Cavalry :)

The Master Alchemist and Maester PrCs don't have any poison-related abilities as such, but the feats are definitely useful!  I think having ones' followers take Apprentice (Craftsman) is actually pretty thematic too, if you play your character as a sort of poisoners' guildmaster.  Knowledge (Arch & Eng.) is also useful along with Major Creation and Fabricate to make temporary towers and bridges too :)

I don't think taking the Artisan feats is worth it except on a crafting mage or artificer, but it's a nice side benefit for poison users to be sure.  One more reason those two classes rock at poisons.



Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Havok4 on June 28, 2009, 06:20:48 PM
Some thing I would like to see is a method of determining the craft DC of a poison if none is provided. That would make a great many very good poisons more readily available.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Akalsaris on June 29, 2009, 10:59:20 AM
I'd also love such a method, but unfortunately it's something that hasn't been provided.  The BoVD simply describes crafting poisons as being the same as crafting anything else, except in regards to cost and time. 

So http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/craft.htm becomes the fallback resource, and it's vague.  We can see that crafting drow poison is about as difficult as alchemist's acid, or a martial weapon, or a bell, which tells us nothing at all. 

So here's some guidelines and houserules that I suggest using, based on having read about 2 dozen poison charts for this guide:

DC 12: The poison should be extremely simple and nearly ineffective.  Only 1 poison (Salvo, C. Adv.) is this easy to craft.

DC 15:  If the effect is any kind of ability damage/ability damage such as 1d4 Str/1d4 Str and has a save DC under 16, it is probably DC 15 to craft.  If the effect is any kind of status effect with a save DC under 17, it will also be DC 15 to craft.  DC 15 also covers most of the poisons with a weak initial effect and a moderate secondary effect like 0/1d6 Con.

DC 18: If the poison has a save DC of 17-19 or deals more ability damage than normal like 1d6 str/1d6 str, it's probably DC 18.  A weak contact or inhaled poison might also fit into this category if it had a low save DC. 

DC 20: If the poison has a save DC of 20-25, or deals more ability damage than normal like 1d8 str/1d8 str, then it's probably DC 20.  DC 20 also covers the majority of injury poisons with a weak initial effect and a strong secondary effect, such as 0/3d6 Con.  If you don't really know what the poison's DC is and it's injury and doesn't have any unique effects, it's probably DC 20.  If it has a unique effect such as slow or paralysis and the save is between DC 15-20, then it's probably a DC 20 craft check.

DC 25: If it's a contact or inhaled poison with a save DC between 16-20, it generally falls into here.  Also this is where you start seeing a bunch of DC 20-25 1d6/2d6 injury poisons, or DC 17-20 2d6/2d6 injury poisons.  This is also the highest point that I've seen any ingested poisons reach.  It gets really random at this point actually, but I would use this as a safe point to mark the DC of most poisons with a unique effect such as confusion or paralysis that have a save DC of over 20.

DC 30: The poison might have a high DC for its ability damage (colossal scorpion venom), or front-load a lot of damage (Dragon Bile's 3d6 Str/0 Str), or do some unusual damage (like front-loading Int and Cha damage). 

DC 35: The poison does ludicrous amounts of damage (Black Lotus and its 3d6/3d6 Con damage, but at the low DC of 20), or it might have a stupidly high save DC (DC 54 scorpion venom from the BoVD, I'm looking at you - though you were also updated and nerfed to DC 33 1d10/1d10 in Dungeonscape), or it might have a high DC for an inhaled or contact poison (DC 24 save 2d6 Con/2d6 Con's Vilestar, for example, or the DC 25 save inhaled 1d8 Con/1d8 Con Mist of Nourn)

Now, since we have the craft DC for colossal Scorpion venom from the BoVD, and we have it updated but without the craft DC from Dungeonscape, we can roughly assume that the poison has maintained the same craft DC - so anything better than colossal scorpion venom probably has a higher craft DC. 

DC 40: No listed poisons have a DC this high.  But we can extrapolate that a save DC 25-30 inhaled or contact poison with a 2d6/2d6 effect would fall into this range, as would a DC 40+ poison that targeted Con or Dex and dealt around 2d8/2d8 or so.  Pit Fiend venom, as an injury poison with a high save DC of 27 and a weak effect followed by death, would probably fall into here, as would Greater Svakalor venom.

DC 45: No listed poisons have a DC this high.  But we can extrapolate that a save DC 31-35 inhaled or contact poison with a 2d6/2d6 effect would fall into this range, as would a DC 50+ poison that targeted Con or Dex and dealt around 2d8/2d8 or so.  I've put Greensickness at this range for this reason, and probably Megapede poison as well.

Rough value of damage when determining craft DC: Death > Dex/Int/Cha > Con/Status Effects > Strength.  (DC +5 for death, +2 for Dex/Int/Cha, -1 for Strength damage)
Rough value of type when determining craft DC: Inhaled > Contact > Injury > Ingested.  (DC +5 for inhaled/contact, +0 for injury, -1 for ingested)
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Havok4 on June 29, 2009, 05:11:03 PM
Thanks, My DM is fairly flexible and will probably allow me to use Greensickness once I get a high enough check to make Black Lotus Extract.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: telehax on June 30, 2009, 08:13:42 AM
To add to the thread, I find Tinker Gnomes from Dragonlance Campaign Setting to be a good race for poison, they have an +2 Int Bonus *and* a +2 to all Craft checks.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Etarran on July 08, 2009, 06:19:59 AM
This is a great resource. This would have made the research I did when starting my latest character a lot easier and faster. JKudos.

Forgive me if I just missed this in the handbook, but one thing you might want to mention is that poison has attracted some truly excellent third party content over the years due to its minimal official support, so a player who is looking to use poison more seriously might want to look into some of that. My own assassin is getting great value out of Poisoncraft by Blue Devil Games, for example.

In my experience, the best poisons tend to be ones with action-denial effects (stun, paralysis, etc), rather than the ability damage ones, especially at higher levels.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Prime32 on July 08, 2009, 04:42:53 PM
I'd like to suggest the Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) feat for getting another poisonous animal on your team.
Title: Re: Skills, Tricks and Tips
Post by: Akalsaris on September 10, 2009, 08:16:05 PM
Argh - meant to modify a post than start a new one - but currently updating the guide.  I've got the information provided earlier by posters, and am also going to add some new poisons I've found since July.

Edit: added!  Serpent Kingdoms was a minor bonanza of nifty poisons, that's for sure!
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: DetectiveJabsco on September 17, 2009, 04:18:00 AM
I don't know if this applies at all however, you could use drugs like poisons, double dosing people to make them OD.
Take Luhix(sp) The OD time is 24 hours, you can only take 1 dose, and if you OD you die, no save, nothing you just die.
So, one could coat there weps in Luhix and duel wield and kill anything in one round

amirite?
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Akalsaris on September 18, 2009, 02:16:01 AM
Hey, very devious!  I like it! 

A lot of drugs probably won't work in a fight just because of their *ahem* delivery methods, but Luhix is injury and some others are inhaled.

Give me a day or 2, I'll work out some info and add them in =)

Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: shalandar on September 22, 2009, 03:20:18 PM
A small clarification you may want to add...

The Handle Animal skill from the DotU (p46) that says you can coax venom from vermin...it also says that you need the feat Vermin Trainer to use this ability.

This technique is beyond the capabilities of most animal handlers, and only characters with the Vermin Trainer feat (see page 53) or with access to a similar ability - such as that granted by the vermin keeper prestige class can train vermin.

the Bestow Venom ability is effectively an "animal trick".  I still like it, and if you have a permanent vermin, you can use it to make some good money by selling off the venom...unfortunately, I don't believe this will work with something like a summoned spider/scorpion.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Solo on September 23, 2009, 08:05:59 AM
Quote
Poison Healer (FC I): You heal damage equal to your constitution each time you make a fortitude save against poison.  Check out the Trouserfang Dwarf link for some fun with it.
You heal damage equal to 5+ Con mod.

Also, I you may want to mention that alcohol is a poison in the A&EG. This, as you can imagine, leads to people using alcohol to heal themselves.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: JaronK on September 23, 2009, 08:36:20 AM
Just a fun build concept, a poisoning Factotum:

Jungle Halfling Factotum 12 with Darkstalker, Poison Expert, Font of Inspiration X2, Poison Master, Sickening Strike, Terrifying Strike, using a Feycraft +1 Splitting Compound Longbow of Assassination.  Cast Greater Magic Weapon on your bow and go to town.  Use Inspiration Points to generate the necessary sneak attack, and Minor Creation for plenty of Black Lotus Poison.  It's DC 25, does 3d6+3 Con damage, and when you use your ambush feats the enemy is at -4 to saves, plus two attacks per turn force saves... so it's effectively DC 29 fort save on most attacks (and after one failure, the enemy won't stand a chance of succeeding).  And Splitting is of course an awesome enchantment for this as it effectively doubles your poison shots (plus you can poison your arrows in advance).  It might be advisable to take two levels of Swordsage for Assassin's Stance and other manuevers.

JaronK
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: cru on September 26, 2009, 09:06:38 PM
I am not sure about the mechanics of extracting poison from e.g. animal companions, but assuming the rule about poison DC of creatures being 10+half HD+Con - could these help before harvesting for poison?
* bard 9 - inspire greatness: +2 HD
* bear's endurance
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Negative Zero on September 26, 2009, 09:35:53 PM
I am not sure about the mechanics of extracting poison from e.g. animal companions, but assuming the rule about poison DC of creatures being 10+half HD+Con - could these help before harvesting for poison?
* bard 9 - inspire greatness: +2 HD
* bear's endurance

Bite of the X is better for getting Enhancement boni to Con.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: JaronK on September 27, 2009, 11:58:18 PM
I am not sure about the mechanics of extracting poison from e.g. animal companions, but assuming the rule about poison DC of creatures being 10+half HD+Con - could these help before harvesting for poison?
* bard 9 - inspire greatness: +2 HD
* bear's endurance

That's actually a really clever idea.  Nice!

JaronK
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Akalsaris on October 14, 2009, 04:12:58 AM
Edited to add the following:
-Shalandar's clarifications
-JaronK's factotum build
-Drugs added to the list of poisons post - thanks DetectiveJabasco!
-cru's ideas for increasing poison DC from milked creatures
-a new poison I found in Waterdeep: City of Splendors
-a new device I noted in C. Adv, the alchemical capsule retainer!
-a new build I came up with for the GITP forum
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Ed-Zero on October 15, 2009, 01:50:25 AM
So I found this handbook and I must say that I enjoy it quite a bit and think it's very well made.   :)

Here's some things I found:

Poison Specialization - Dragon 303 pg69
Prereq: Craft (poisonmaking) 5+ ranks
Benefit: Whenever you create a poison of the chosen type, the Fortitude DC to resist the poison's effects increases by +2. This adjustment applies to both the inital and secondary saving throws.

Devil Blood - BoVD
When used to coat a blade, this black ichor acts as a poison the next thirteen times the weapon strikes.
The poison (Fort DC 20) deals 1d6 points of Strength damage as initial damage and 2d6 points of Strength Damage as secondary damage.

Chuk's Fungus - Book of Challenges (3.0)
Chuk makes his potions with a twist: each contains a fungus that heightens mental actuity, giving a +2 alchemical bonus on Will saves if the imbiber is a bugbear.
They're poisonous to anyone else (Fort DC 17, 1 Str/1d6+1 Str), though each one still has its normal magical effects.
Note: I guess you can extrapolate the fungus out of this description.
Cast Level: 20th; Weight: 1 lb. (including the flask).
Note: No price is listed because it's a minor artifact. (it should cost 1,800g to make seeing as it's exactly the same as Deathblade poison)

Edit ~ I found a bunch more stuff that you might like.

Quote
Anti-magic Poisons from Epic Insights (3.0)

Poison: Chaos Ichor
Type: Contact DC 22
Initial: 1d4 Str
Secondary: 2d6 Str
Price: 330,000gp
DC to Create: 53

Poison: Lyzeum
Type: Injury DC 25
Initial: 1d6 Dex
Secondary: 3d6 Dex
Price: 390,000gp
DC to Create: 59

Poison: Illis thyr
Type:Injury DC 28
Initial: 2d4 Con
Secondary: 4d4 Con
Price: 450,000gp
DC to Create: 65

Poison: Milk of Atropos
Type: Injury DC 32
Initial: 2d8 Str
Secondary: 4d8 Str
Price: 590,000gp
DC to Create:  79

Poison: Godsblood
Type: Injury DC 40
Initial: 1d6 Int
Secondary: 3d6 Int
Price: 820,000gp
DC to Create:  102

+++

Doubt Bomb - Fiend Folio (3.0) - 500gp
A grenade that shatters on impact, creating a cloud of poisonous gas in a 10-foot spread (initial and secondary damage 1d6 Wisdom, Fort DC 15 negates). Ethergaunts are immune to the effects of doubt bombs.

Sinmaker's Surprise - Manual of the Planes (3.0)
The demon proprietor synthesizes a special acidic poison from the acid plants native to the plane called Sinmaker’s Surprise. This concoction has two components: poison and acid. Sinmaker’s Surprise is specially formulated such that its caustic qualities remain quiescent until it comes into contact with living tissue. Therefore, it does not harm weapons or objects to which it is applied. Victims make saving throws against the poisonous component normally, but automatically take damage from the acid component.
Sinmaker's Surprise has the following characteristics:
Fortitude Save: DC 24 (injury) or DC 18 (ingested)
Initial Damage: 2d6 points of temporary Constitution damage (from poison).
Acid Damage: 1d6 points of damage per round for 3 rounds.
Secondary Damage: 2d6 points of temporary Constitution damage.
Price: 4,400gp.

Rod of Paralysis - Arms & Equipment (3.0)
This rod is created out of sickly pink coral and topped with spikes like those on a puffer fish. The spikes constantly produce an exotic venom that has paralytic qualities.
These rods are commonly created by kuo-toas, who are immune to the effects they produce.
Anyone struck by the rod must succeed on a Fortitude save DC 25) or be paralyzed for 1d4 rounds. The wielder can also expend a charge to cast hold person and hold animal twice per day and hold monster once per day (as the spells from a 9th-level caster). The rod holds 50 charges for the spells, but the poison lasts indefinitely.
Caster Level: 9th; Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item, hold
monster, hold person; Market Price: 22,000 gp.

Angel's Blood - Complete Champion
Those who manage to shed celestial blood often collect a few drops for sale to other, equally vile souls.
When blended with specific poisons and used as a component in the casting of any spell that has the evil descriptor, angel’s blood increases the save DC by 1.
Price: 85 gp.

Gehennan Morghuth-Iron - Arms & Equipment
This volcanic mineral is unique to the steep mountains of the Bleak Eternity of Gehenna, where it is occasionally mined by neutral evil fiends called yugoloths and other creatures on that forbidding plane.
It forges poorly, making weapons that appear pocked and pitted and have a –1 attack and damage penalty.
However, morghuth-iron is extremely toxic, rapidly poisoning the blood. A slashing or piercing weapon made of Gehennan morghuth-iron is naturally poisonous.
The weapon delivers its poison (Fortitude save DC 12) with each successful attack. The initial damage is 1 point of temporary Dexterity; the
secondary damage is 1d4 points of temporary Dexterity. The market price modifier for a weapon made of morghuth-iron is +4,000 gp.
Gehennan morghuth-iron has a hardness of 9 and 20 hit points per inch of thickness.

Dungeon Master's Guide (3.5)
Potion of Poison
This potion has lost its once potent magical abilities and has become a potent poison.
The imbiber must make a Fortitude save (DC 16) or take 1d10 points of temporary Constitution damage. A minute later he must save again (DC 16) or take 1d10 points of temporary Constitution damage.
Moderate conjuration; CL 12th; Craft Wondrous Item,
poison; Price 5,000 gp.

Viper Whip - Arms & Equipment (3.0)
This +2 whip is made of braided pieces of multicolored leather cut to look like the scaly skin of a snake. On command, the tip of the weapon transforms into the head of a Tiny viper. While transformed, the weapon delivers poison with each successful melee attack.
The poison deals 1d6 points of temporary Constitution damage (both initial and secondary). Struck opponents must succeed on a Fortitude save (DC 11) to resist the poison. The weapon can remain transformed for a total of 10 rounds each day, and these need not be consecutive.
Caster Level: 15th; Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, polymorph any object, summon nature’s ally I; Market Price: 38,301 gp; Cost to Create: 19,301 gp + 1,532 XP.

Dagger of Venom (DMG 3.5)
This black +1 dagger has a serrated edge.
It allows the wielder to use a poison effect (as the spell, save DC 14) upon a creature struck by the blade once per day. The wielder can decide to use the power after he has struck. Doing so is a free action, but the poison effect must be invoked in the same round that the dagger strikes.
Faint necromancy; CL 5th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor,
poison; Price 8,302 gp; Cost 4,302 gp + 320 XP.

Viperblade - Magic Item Compendium
Price (Item Level): 6,302 gp (10th)
Body Slot: — (held)
Caster Level: 7th
Aura: Moderate; (DC 18) necromancy
Activation: Swift (mental)
Weight: 1 lb.
The hilt of this dagger is shaped like a snake, and the twisted blade looks like an impossibly long tongue. Created by cults that worship serpent deities, these +1 daggers are prized for their ability to secrete toxic venom. A viperblade has 5 charges, which are renewed each day at dawn. Spending 1 or more charges envenoms the blade (at no risk to you) for the next attack you make during this turn. The poison deals 1d6 points of Constitution damage (both primary and secondary).
The save DC depends on the number of charges spent: 1
charge: Fortitude DC 12.
2 charges: Fortitude DC 15.
3 charges: Fortitude DC 18.
Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, poison.
Cost to Create: 3,000 gp (plus 302 gp for masterwork dagger),
300 XP, 6 days.

Venomous Fire - Fiend Folio (3.5)
This alchemical creation is an insidious method of delivering toxic venom. In essence, venomous fire is similar to alchemist’s fire—it is a viscous substance that burns when exposed to air. However, it is also mixed with yuan-ti venom, so that, in the round after taking any damage from the fire itself, a character must make a Fortitude saving throw (DC 17) against the poison that entered the body through the wounds from the fire. Initial and secondary damage from the poison are the same (1d6 Con). If the fire is allowed to burn for another round (thus causing the character to take damage on successive rounds), the character is exposed to two doses of poison. A flask of venomous fire is a grenade-like weapon with a range increment of 10 feet. It deals 1d6 points of fire damage on a direct hit, plus 1d6 points of fire damage in the next round if it is not extinguished (requiring a full-round action and a Reflex save against DC 15). A splash deals 1 point of fire damage, and a target hit by the splash has +4 circumstance bonus on the Fortitude save against the poison.
Cost: 220 gp; Weight: 1 lb.

Toxic Gloves - Magic Item Compendium (3.5)
Price (Item Level): 6,000 gp (10th)
Body Slot: Hands
Caster Level: 7th
Aura: Moderate; (DC 18) necromancy
Activation: Swift (mental)
Weight: —
These smooth black leather gloves feel slightly sticky to the touch. Toxic gloves allow you to imbue a held weapon with poison without any risk to yourself. When you activate these gloves, choose a single melee weapon you hold. The next attack made with that weapon before the end of your turn also poisons the target (injury; 1d6 Con/1d6 Con; Fort DC 16 negates).
This ability functions three times per day.
Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item, poison.
Cost to Create: 3,000 gp, 240 XP, 6 days.


**Adding even more things I found in Eberron.


Tentacle Whip - Eberron Campaign Setting
A tentacle whip has a reach of 15 feet and can attack adjacent foes without penalty. A tentacle whip deals lethal damage and injects poison into the target’s bloodstream with a successful hit.
A tentacle whip can make a single attack per round using its own attack bonus and statistics. Alternatively, the host can use the whip as a weapon. In this case the user’s attack bonus and Strength are used.
Poison (Su): Stinger—injury, Fortitude DC 12, initial and secondary damage 1d4 Dex. The save is Constitution based.
Note: I think it's worth mentioning just because it can attack on it's own not using any of your actions.

Mordrei'in - Faiths of Eberron
Created by the Aereni elves for use in religious rites, mordrei’in (or “leaves of death”) is made of the crushed leaves of the rare mordril tree, combined with other sacred herbs and powders. When eaten raw, the leaves are a deadly poison (Fortitude DC 14, 1d6 Con/1d6 Con).
Mordrei’in, however, enhances the imbiber’s ability to focus and is substantially less toxic (Fortitude DC 10, 1 Con/1 Con). Anyone who consumes mordrei’in (whether or not the save succeeds) gains a +2 alchemical bonus on Concentration and Spot checks for 10 minutes.
Price 25 gp (available only on Aerenal).

Manifest Druid - Feat from Player's Guide to Eberron
Your years of wandering the Eldeen Reaches have given you a familiarity with its three manifest zones and the powers of the planes they are linked to.
Prerequisite: Region of origin Eldeen Reaches, ability to cast summon nature’s ally I.
Benefit: Whenever you cast a summon nature’s ally spell, the duration is increased by 1 round. When you cast a spell or use an ability that causes disease or involves poison, the saving throw DC of the effect increases by 1.
Once per day, you can empower any 1st-level arcane spell as you cast it without adjusting the spell’s level or casting time.
Note: Does making a poison count as "using a ability that causes disease"? If not, then it "will" apply when you make one via minor creation.

Spotted Toadstool Venom - Player's Guide to Eberron - 350gp
The poison dusk lizardfolk brew a poison from the caps of the spotted toadstool, a violet fungus with sickly white splotches. Injury, Fortitude DC 16, initial damage 1d6 Str, secondary damage 1d6 Con.

Scorpion Wraith - Secrets of Xendrik - Prestige Class
Deadly Sting (Su): At 5th level, you are able to coat a slashing or piercing weapon you wield in liquid shadow as a standard action. This shadow acts like a deadly poison, dealing initial and secondary damage of 1d10 points of Constitution (Fortitude DC 15 + your Wis modifier). Once created, the poison clings to a weapon for 1 hour or until it is delivered. If anyone but you wields the prepared weapon, the shadow poison has no effect.
You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 1 + your Wisdom modifier (minimum once per day).

Darkeye - Sharn, City of Towers - 50gp, Alchemy DC: 25
The strongest of the toxic beverages served at Nightshade in Shae Lias, this foul substance acts as an ingested poison: DC 12, initial damage paralysis, secondary damage 1 Con. However, if the victim fails his saving throw against the secondary damage, the paralysis continues and he
must make another save after a minute has passed. If he fails, he remains paralyzed, loses another point of Constitution, and must save again the following minute. This continues until the victim makes a successful saving throw.
During the period of paralysis, the victim is poised on the brink of life and death. Some victims see visions of their past, while others hear the voices of departed friends and family. The experience sensitizes the victim to the emanations of the beyond. For an hour after consuming darkeye, the victim gains +1 effective caster level when casting any sort of necromantic spell; this is increased to +5 when casting speak with dead.
Darkeye is terribly bitter, and a full dose (2 ounces) is required to have any effect.

Also, I think you should re-evaluate the Black Dog class in Dragonmarked, the 4th level ability Empower Poison is (to me) what the whole class is about.. the poisons variable number effects increase 50% for 1 min/level! Insane!
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: JaronK on October 15, 2009, 07:24:27 AM
Sinmaker's Surprise sounds quite nice, as the DC is higher than Black Lotus (though the effect isn't as nasty) and it can be made with Major Creation.  Good stuff if you need higher DCs.

JaronK
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Ed-Zero on October 15, 2009, 06:03:59 PM
Looking through the Drow of the Underdark book closer I found this:

Quote
Darklight Ore
Darklight ore is a rare and dangerous substance found in the Underdark. It occurs only in formations of heavy metal ore. A darklight lode's inherent properties cause it to give off a milky, purple glow that is equal to a torch for the purpose of illumination. However, this radiation is poisonous. Of all the Underdark races, only the drow have been known to mine the ore and harness its power, using lead-shielded equipment.
Anyone who comes within 60 feet of a darklight lode without appropriate armor or shielding (such as that provided by a stone wall) is immediately exposed to darklight poisoning.
For all purposes, darklight poisoning functions as regular poison. The Fortitude save to resist darklight poisoning is DC 18. The initial effect is 1d6 points of Constitution damage. The secondary effect is a disease that is similar to mummy rot. However, this disease is not magical, so a paladin's divine health and a monk's purity of body allow those characters to resist its effect. Furthermore, a victim who dies of darklight
poisoning does not shrivel into dust. A caster level check is required for a healing spell to work on a victim of darklight poisoning, but this limitation is overcome by a neutralize poison spell rather than break enchantment or remove curse.

This seems like it can come in handy espescially if you & the rest of your party is immune to poison, although it can lead to trouble if you walk in town...
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: DetectiveJabsco on October 21, 2009, 10:42:01 AM
im really happy i has a good idea that got into a handbook, my fu is strong now, i will commence the fapping
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: PhaedrusXY on October 21, 2009, 04:18:45 PM
im really happy i has a good idea that got into a handbook, my fu is strong now, i will commence the fapping
TMI...  :notlistening
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: JaronK on October 21, 2009, 10:25:56 PM
Something to mention in case it hasn't been mentioned yet... the Factotum's Cunning Insight applies to poison damage (since it applies to all damage rolls).  What's nastier than Black Lotus poison that does 3d6 con damage?  Black Lotus Poison that does 3d6+Int con damage.  Yowch.

JaronK
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: DetectiveJabsco on October 22, 2009, 09:08:07 AM
im really happy i has a good idea that got into a handbook, my fu is strong now, i will commence the fapping
TMI...  :notlistening

you sir spend far to little time on /b
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Negative Zero on October 22, 2009, 10:02:58 AM
im really happy i has a good idea that got into a handbook, my fu is strong now, i will commence the fapping
TMI...  :notlistening

you sir spend far to little time on /b

I'm not certain that it's possible to spend too little time on /b/.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: telehax on October 22, 2009, 06:49:42 PM
Is it me or is there nothing preventing you from applying multiple poisons to a single weapon?

Sounds like you could apply 20x Drow Poison or something to the party fighter's weapon, "hope" for a natural 1, and get an instasleep for relatively cheap at higher levels.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Akalsaris on October 23, 2009, 12:39:44 AM
Telehax, I've never seen it written that you can apply multiple sources of poison to a weapon - the exception would be the alchemical capsule retainer, which was designed to hold crappy alchemical items instead of poisons, and was most likely an oversight.  So it's a DM's call in my opinion, but I don't think it's RAI that multiple poisons on the same weapon will stack. 

Even if your DM rules against it, you can still probably double up if you have a poisonous bite attack and a poison-giving spell affecting your bite, or a poisoned spell-storing weapon along with a poisoned touch spell or something. 

Ed-Zero, I'll start working on adding in most of the stuff you mentioned, lots of great finds there!  Those epic poisons are ridiculously terrible...I love the example:

For example, an assassin crafting lyzeum begins by spending 110,000 gp in raw materials. On his first Craft (poisonmaking) skill check, he rolls a 71. Multiplying this result by the DC of 59 results in a total of 4,189, which means that he has created 41,890 gp worth of poison -- roughly 1/8 of a dose. Assuming similar success, the task will be complete in another seven weeks or so.

Oh goodie, only 7 more weeks before I can finish making my DC 25 injury poison that deals 1d6 Dex damage!  And I only spent an epic feat and 390,000g to make it too! 

I'll upgrade both the Black Dog and the Factotum a level as well.  I had been under the mistaken impression that the Black Dog's poison-related powers only affected the poisons that he made with the Create Poison ability.  I'm not sure about Cunning Insight working with poison damage as opposed to weapon damage, but it's probably do-able.  It might also work the same way as point blank shot and ability damage, where the it doesn't add to damage since ability damage isn't "true" damage.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: altpersona on October 23, 2009, 03:05:46 AM
starting with reasons why not.

a. questionable duration of existence / effectiveness
b. really? you need the money that bad?
c. screw planetars, do your own old school thing.

Pit fiend.

i know its listed, but not much beyond the basic dc and effect of the poison is given.

if you have 18 hd, and if your a codzilla of any reasonable variety... and i know you are...

pull out the ever fun bag of tricks called shapechange (unless you are an outsider, then you use Alter self (also already mentioned abit))

now your a pit fiend. find a nice quiet spot, grab a beaker, some udder butter, the Nov 09 playboy and milk your self silly. (you'll go to hell for that you know)

i do know that i have ever seen a rule to say how long after you unfiend, that the stuff is gonna stay valid. DM call.. bring beer to enhance your odds.

but hey... your sitting their in your homemade genesis plane, waiting for it grow... your all alone.. no ones looking g'head. you know your goona..


* by codzilla i intend any full caster w/ shapechange and or alterself as applicable. peas
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Operation Shoestring on October 24, 2009, 02:46:49 AM
Why do i not see the "poison spell" metamagic?

(if your DM lets you use the CArc version of bladeweave, throw on this and a persist and go to town.)
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: telehax on October 24, 2009, 02:57:54 AM
Why do i not see the "poison spell" metamagic?

(if your DM lets you use the CArc version of bladeweave, throw on this and a persist and go to town.)

Quote
Ways to make poisons last longer

    *


      Poison Spell: this feat from Drow of the Underdark lets a poison apply to your touch spells - and Chill Touch lasts for up to 5 attacks, therefore spreading the dosage out over several rounds. 

    * Toxic Enhancement: This +1 weapon enhancement from DoTU makes a poison last for 2 successful hits instead of one.  Just what the doctor ordered!


I've no idea, why didn't you?
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Operation Shoestring on October 24, 2009, 07:04:37 AM
Must have failed my spot check.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Ed-Zero on October 24, 2009, 09:25:03 PM
So i've been searching all over the place for poison books for d20. Actually found one that had the same name as a d20 book and turned out to be how to make poisons in real life!

The books I've found are Plot & Poison: A Guidebook to Drow (Green Ronin) & The Assassins Handbook (Also from Green Ronin). Found another called Poisoncraft:The Dark Art but the one I can't seem to find is Pale Designs: A Poisoner's Handbook. If anyone has that, can they PM me the link to it?

Anyways, All of these books have some pretty nice stuff for poisons in it.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Akalsaris on October 28, 2009, 08:13:53 PM
Heh, which one was the RL book? 

I've read through Plot and Poison, and didn't find a whole lot of interest there, sadly.  I'll have to check out the other books though.  I saw Pale Designs on sale for 12.50, but I'm probably not going to pay more than 5 bucks for a 3rd party sourcebook of dubious quality.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: bayar on October 28, 2009, 11:42:51 PM
Would it constitute a poison if I placed lead shavings in someone's muffins ?
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: PhaedrusXY on October 28, 2009, 11:43:55 PM
Would it constitute a poison if I placed lead shavings in someone's muffins ?
Is this a question about D&D or real life?
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: saintx on November 02, 2009, 04:50:37 AM
hate to be the guy who didnt thoroughly read the thread before i comment, but i have 2 poison related builds that i have liked for a while.

human
cleric 1
human paragon 2
master of shrouds 10

milk the shadows that you can summon for shadow essence. deals permanent str damage.

also.

human
ranger 11
stormlord 9
takes a lot of feats to qualify. i also spent a lot of feats on twf and throwing. uses javelins.
get a big snake animal companion to milk. apply to all javelins which also count at +3 lightening burst thundering weapons. for 2gp each.

just ideas that i had tossed around some time ago. jumped back on the boards and saw the thread. good work to all involved.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Surreal on November 02, 2009, 08:48:21 AM
How about a note for druids or master of many forms to utilize the poison of the forms they take. This opens up a rather huge list however. I'll just mention one of my favourites: Elder Viper Tree - Expedition to the Demonweb Pits (p.212). DC 23 (Con based), primary is 1d4 Str AND paralysis 2d6 rounds, secondary is 2d8+2 Str.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Akalsaris on November 02, 2009, 10:13:05 PM
saintx, I love the master of shrouds build - I've actually played a master of shrouds who used poisons as well!  It never occurred to me that the shadows might actually provide components for my poisons though :)

I'll add your two builds, as well as a note on the druid for using his poisons from wildshape. 
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: saintx on November 04, 2009, 09:12:07 PM
also, i think ability focus (monster manual) would increase the DC of a poison attack if you had one... or if you animal companion had one...
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Negative Zero on November 04, 2009, 09:50:36 PM
IIRC, Savage Species also has a feat that gives +2 to the poison DC (Virulent Poison, maybe?), which ought to stack. Another feat that has that as a prerequisite doubles the secondary damage, too. Not that that ever really comes up.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: JaronK on November 05, 2009, 03:07:31 PM
Unfortunately, those two feats only apply to your extraordinary ability poison... so it only works for races that have poison already or classes that give it.

JaronK
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Ed-Zero on November 26, 2009, 05:25:14 PM
So I finally got that other poison book and man does it blow. The only nice thing about it is some regular equipment thats kinda nifty and the poisons themselves. The magic items stink and the prc's have almost nothing to do with poison. So stupid.

I really was looking for a weapon or enchantment of some kind that would allow a weapon to permanently hold poison so every hit could apply it and even hold multiple poisons of different types (10 applications of black lotus would be funny tho), maybe limiting it (in the style of 4e) to the number of +'s it has. So a +3 weapon could hold 3 poisons and apply those on every attack.

It might be a little overpowered at the start but not late game when almost everything has poison immunity. Which is why there also needs to be a feat or prc power or wonderous item that ignores poison immunity. That would make everything viable late game. It'd also have to scale up the DC for everything as well but it would be worth it.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Akalsaris on November 30, 2009, 06:38:10 PM
Ah...too bad to hear about that book.  It was our last, best hope :P

I agree that a feat or PrC that allowed one to ignore poison immunity (like the Dread Witch ignores fear immunity) would make poisons much more viable.  Half-measures like "positoxins" and ravages really don't cut it when it comes to immune creatures.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Shigure on December 03, 2009, 01:13:35 AM
First of all...wonderful thread. :clap I've gotten a lot of use out of it.

Now...I've found another delivery device for us. Ceramic Mines, from Dragon #332 page 61, are fairly simple traps that usually contain an alchemical fluid that does fire or acid or some such. The important thing is that in the text it mentions that they can also contain inhaled poisons.

They're basically thin skinned and relatively flat ceramic bowls that have been filled with whatever the designer wants then sealed shut. They're placed in passage ways to be stepped on(I can see them being incorporated into a tile floor very easily), placed on walls to be shot with a bolt or sling stone at the appropriate time, or incorporated into other traps. They even list some as stalactites that can be triggered to drop on an opponent, doing falling damage, and shattering to release whatever was contained within.

Not amazing but still rather fun.

There's no craft DC unfortunately but one can guess as they're usually just simple ceramics.   
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Akalsaris on December 03, 2009, 08:42:48 PM
Nice find, Shigure, and thanks for the compliment! :)   

I think it'd be fun to use those pots along with Telekinesis, perhaps. 

On a different note, your name reminded me of Shigure Takimi from the awful Rurouni Kenshin movie, though I liked the character.  When I looked the character up just now, it turns out he was from Aizu, where I used to live!  So yeah - small world :)
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Shigure on December 03, 2009, 08:56:14 PM
Hmm...get a metric s*** load of them, shrink them, then go on a bombing run over a city you don't like?  :smirk Of course the same can be done with glass vials so its not exactly an original thought.

Interesting connection...but I didn't take the name from a show...I took it from history. And because I like the meaning behind the name.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Akalsaris on December 03, 2009, 09:58:19 PM
What's the meaning?  Looking it up I've found a few different spellings, one that means autumn showers (time+rain - very simple, I like it), and another that has murasaki and a kanji I'm not familiar with.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Shigure on December 04, 2009, 12:46:22 AM
It's typically translated to 'Autumn Mist', Autumn Showers', or 'Autumn Rain'. Its a beautiful and very appropriate thought considering I live in the Pacific Northwest which is quite wet in the fall.

I took it from the famous World War Two Japanese destroyer of the same name. The Shigure was known as "the unsinkable ship" since it survived so many close actions. It's most important captain got his memoirs published by some English firms and its an excellent read. Real moving and one of the few books that shows the naval war from the Japanese side. Look it up and give it a read if you're at all interested in naval history.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: bearsarebrown on February 23, 2010, 06:32:26 PM
Amazing Poison stuff in Dragon Mag. Didn't see it in the handbook.[spoiler](http://i49.tinypic.com/5vpwyv.jpg)
(http://i45.tinypic.com/2lbkdvk.jpg)
(http://i48.tinypic.com/zlyfly.png)
I'm helping I'm helping![/spoiler]
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: snakeman830 on February 23, 2010, 07:14:04 PM
It might be worth mentioning thri-kreen under races.  Their poison is rather nice, have a initial damage of 1d6 Dex (low, but useable) and a secondary damage of paralysis (2d6 minutes, according to the SRD on poison).  They can only produce one dose a day (unless you take the feat in Complete Psionic for an additional two uses), but there's nothing stopping you from saving it up each day and using it on your weapon of choice.  Although the save DC is low (11+Con modifier), you do have the advantage of being unable to poison yourself with it and it's much easier to boost your own poison save DC than that of other creatures.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Ed-Zero on February 23, 2010, 08:35:27 PM
Amazing Poison stuff in Dragon Mag. Didn't see it in the handbook.[spoiler](http://i49.tinypic.com/5vpwyv.jpg)
(http://i45.tinypic.com/2lbkdvk.jpg)
(http://i48.tinypic.com/zlyfly.png)
I'm helping I'm helping![/spoiler]
The only one I would definitely consider is the Potent poison. That's just amazing. Maybe the mounting too, that's pretty cool that it builds up. What # Dragon Mag is that? I can see it's August 2004.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Akalsaris on February 23, 2010, 09:35:53 PM
Concentrated seems like it would be good as well.  I think these options would be especially good for an artificer or somebody heading into Alchemist Savant, since both will be picking up Brew Potion anyhow.  Very nice find indeed, bearsarebrown :)  Once I get around to adding some more poisons I found in other obscure books (none of them particularly good though), I'll put this into the main part of the guide as well.

Oh, I also got a PM from zagan with another cool suggestion that adds a little more kick to every poisoning attempt:

It's a special material for weapon from the arms and equipement guide:

Gehennan Morghuth iron:
The weapon gain a -1 penality to attack and damage roll.
If it's piercing or slashing for each succesfull attack the weapon deliver a poison,
DC 12 1 Dex initiale 1d4 Dex secondary. It cost 4000gp.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: bearsarebrown on March 28, 2010, 06:34:44 AM
These are all poisons which can be Minor Created, right?
Quote
[spoiler]Plant and mineral based poisons for Minor & Major Creation
Craft DC 15?: Stun Gas (Underdark).  DC 12, Stun effect.
Craft DC 15: Bloodroot (DMG).  DC 12, deals 0/1d4 Con +1d3 Wis
Craft DC 15: Sleeping Vine (A&E): DC 13, slowed/1d4 Dex
Craft DC 15: Good-Bye Kiss (C. Scoundrel) (Exhaustion/Exhaustion, Fatigued on a successful save)
Craft DC 15: Drow Poison (DMG) (Unconsciousness/Unconsciousness) *Noted as being distilled from fungi and roots in C. Scoundrel
Craft DC 17: Psychotropic Rot (DoTU): DC 15 ingested, deals 1d4 Wis/3d8 Hp.
Craft DC 20: Vapid Leaf Extract (A&E): DC 16, Dazed/2d6 Int.
Craft DC 20: Malyss Root paste (DMG).  DC 16, deals 1/2d4 Dex damage.
Craft DC 20: Sassone leaf residue (DMG): DC 16, deals 2d12 damage/1d6 Con.
Craft DC 21: Cave Terror (Underdark).  DC 20, Confusion effect.
Craft DC 25: Terinav Root (DMG).  DC 20, deals 1d6/2d6 Dex.
Craft DC 28: Darklight Brew (Injury, DoTU): DC 23, Deals an initial 2d6 Con and 1d6 Strength damage, and blindness as a secondary effect!  Can be crafted with Major Creation.
Craft DC 35: Black Lotus Extract (DMG).  DC 20, deals 3d6/3d6 Con.
Craft DC 45?: Greensickness (Dungeonscape, MMIII).  DC 33, deals 2d6 Str + 1d4 Con/2d6 Str + 1d4 Con.  *Confirmed that this is plant-based - it's from the Plague Brush in MMIII, an extraplanar house-sized tumbleweed of death.  Words fail me.  Craft DC given is an estimate.[/spoiler]

Also, this might be covered but I couldn't find it... how many doses is in a cubic foot?
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Akalsaris on March 28, 2010, 09:52:41 PM
Those are the ones that I could find that are craftable with minor or major creation, yes.  I'm sure there's more out there if you find any.

For dosage, you can try to wrap your head around the stuff in the Minor Creation and You (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19538926/Minor_Creation_and_You,_a_Small_Guide?pg=1) thread.  I think 1 cubic foot of Sassone Leaf, for example, is going to be several thousand doses of it.  For most poisons it's somewhat abstract, however, since the text doesn't tell us whether you need just a drop of poison or to dunk the sword in a vat of it repeatedly.  But even a CL 1 casting should net several thousand doses by just about any interpretation.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Garryl on March 29, 2010, 05:58:31 AM
Taxine (yew tree poison) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/al/20041208a) and Kiss of the Grave (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fey/20030411a) are a couple of unusual poisons that may be useful in certain circumstances.

   Kiss of the Grave is a fairly weak initial poison (1d4 Con damage), but its secondary damage makes immortal creatures mortal. It also makes them unable to be raised or resurrected, and takes a Wish or Miracle to remove the effect. Contact poison, DC 20.

   Taxine is another weak initial poison. However, every dose the victim takes increases the save DC and damage of the secondary effect. It starts at DC 13, 1d2 Con/2d6 Con, and adds another +2 to the DC and 1d2 Con for the secondary effect for each dose taken, with no listed duration. It's ingested though, so that could be a problem. Ingested poison, DC 13.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Archao on March 29, 2010, 06:20:19 AM
I'm working on a character that dabbles in the use of poison (really just Craft (poison) and Master of Poisons) and my DM says that Good characters may not use poisons unless they are non-lethal. The Book of Exalted/Vile Deeds' comments seem, to me, to be more flavor than an actual ruling, but that's not my main problem. No, my problem is that I'm not allowed to use deadly poisons with a Neutral character unless I can show the DM something that says they can use them without shifting to a fully Evil alignment. Does anyone know where I can find such a thing?

Normally I'd ask in the "Ask a Question" thread, but posting here seemed more appropriate.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: The_Mad_Linguist on March 29, 2010, 06:42:03 AM
I'm working on a character that dabbles in the use of poison (really just Craft (poison) and Master of Poisons) and my DM says that Good characters may not use poisons unless they are non-lethal. The Book of Exalted/Vile Deeds' comments seem, to me, to be more flavor than an actual ruling, but that's not my main problem. No, my problem is that I'm not allowed to use deadly poisons with a Neutral character unless I can show the DM something that says they can use them without shifting to a fully Evil alignment. Does anyone know where I can find such a thing?

Normally I'd ask in the "Ask a Question" thread, but posting here seemed more appropriate.
It's dishonorable, but not evil.

The spell poison doesn't have the evil descriptor.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Archao on March 29, 2010, 06:55:11 AM
I'm working on a character that dabbles in the use of poison (really just Craft (poison) and Master of Poisons) and my DM says that Good characters may not use poisons unless they are non-lethal. The Book of Exalted/Vile Deeds' comments seem, to me, to be more flavor than an actual ruling, but that's not my main problem. No, my problem is that I'm not allowed to use deadly poisons with a Neutral character unless I can show the DM something that says they can use them without shifting to a fully Evil alignment. Does anyone know where I can find such a thing?

Normally I'd ask in the "Ask a Question" thread, but posting here seemed more appropriate.
It's dishonorable, but not evil.

The spell poison doesn't have the evil descriptor.
So unless a character class is specifically banned from using poisons (such as Paladin) they can use whatever they want?
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: bearsarebrown on March 29, 2010, 06:57:44 AM
Correct.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Havok4 on March 29, 2010, 06:58:27 AM
I'm working on a character that dabbles in the use of poison (really just Craft (poison) and Master of Poisons) and my DM says that Good characters may not use poisons unless they are non-lethal. The Book of Exalted/Vile Deeds' comments seem, to me, to be more flavor than an actual ruling, but that's not my main problem. No, my problem is that I'm not allowed to use deadly poisons with a Neutral character unless I can show the DM something that says they can use them without shifting to a fully Evil alignment. Does anyone know where I can find such a thing?

Normally I'd ask in the "Ask a Question" thread, but posting here seemed more appropriate.

The BoED poison ruling is incredibly stupid and inconsistent. So using poison is evil but stabbing people in the face, beating them to death with your bear hands (Druids), hitting painful vital organs, sealing their soul away for eternity, mind control, and burning people alive are not evil. They make some silly argument about damaging ability damage is inherently evil (even though most ability damaging spells are not evil) and there are poisons in the BoED that deal ability damage but they do it painlessly. So a solution is to get some sort of anesthetic and mix your poisons with it so they do not feel pain if your DM insists that poison is evil. Another argument you could use against your DM is that using poisons can cause an enemy to be killed in a single round, while a regular battle would have them repeated stabbed, burned, and battered over the course of what might be several minutes before they are just too injured to remain standing, so poison is quicker and more merciful.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: The_Mad_Linguist on March 29, 2010, 07:04:12 AM
Though, honestly, drow poison is better than most other injury poisons.  It's save or lose rather than save or debuff.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Archao on March 29, 2010, 07:09:20 AM
Though, honestly, drow poison is better than most other injury poisons.  It's save or lose rather than save or debuff.
Do you mean Drow Knockout Poison? I like it, but a DC of 13 seems rather small, especially in a level 6, CR 7-10 campaign.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: The_Mad_Linguist on March 29, 2010, 08:57:08 AM
Though, honestly, drow poison is better than most other injury poisons.  It's save or lose rather than save or debuff.
Do you mean Drow Knockout Poison? I like it, but a DC of 13 seems rather small, especially in a level 6, CR 7-10 campaign.
Not the way I use poison.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Akalsaris on March 29, 2010, 02:53:43 PM
Taxine (yew tree poison) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/al/20041208a) and Kiss of the Grave (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fey/20030411a) are a couple of unusual poisons that may be useful in certain circumstances.

   Kiss of the Grave is a fairly weak initial poison (1d4 Con damage), but its secondary damage makes immortal creatures mortal. It also makes them unable to be raised or resurrected, and takes a Wish or Miracle to remove the effect. Contact poison, DC 20.

   Taxine is another weak initial poison. However, every dose the victim takes increases the save DC and damage of the secondary effect. It starts at DC 13, 1d2 Con/2d6 Con, and adds another +2 to the DC and 1d2 Con for the secondary effect for each dose taken, with no listed duration. It's ingested though, so that could be a problem. Ingested poison, DC 13.

Nice finds!  I like the yew one especially - it's an actual poison from RL, easy to find in-game, dirt cheap, and 2d6 con as a secondary is good even for an ingested poison. 

I'll be adding some more info in a week or so - I have 3 new poison-using builds that I've developed (a blackguard and 2 psionic assassins), and I want to add some info on the binder and binds to use for poisons, as well as the poisons from Sandstorm and these two above poisons.  And I need to find update the minor creation poisons list as well - hemlock and yew should definitely go in the list, for starters. 
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Archao on March 29, 2010, 05:10:47 PM
Though, honestly, drow poison is better than most other injury poisons.  It's save or lose rather than save or debuff.
Do you mean Drow Knockout Poison? I like it, but a DC of 13 seems rather small, especially in a level 6, CR 7-10 campaign.
Not the way I use poison.
Might I ask how you use poison?
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: snakeman830 on March 29, 2010, 05:11:44 PM
Though, honestly, drow poison is better than most other injury poisons.  It's save or lose rather than save or debuff.
Do you mean Drow Knockout Poison? I like it, but a DC of 13 seems rather small, especially in a level 6, CR 7-10 campaign.
Not the way I use poison.
Might I ask how you use poison?
Large quantities, I'm sure.  With knocklout poison, they only need to roll a single 1.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: PhaedrusXY on March 29, 2010, 05:16:00 PM
Though, honestly, drow poison is better than most other injury poisons.  It's save or lose rather than save or debuff.
Do you mean Drow Knockout Poison? I like it, but a DC of 13 seems rather small, especially in a level 6, CR 7-10 campaign.
Not the way I use poison.
Might I ask how you use poison?
Large quantities, I'm sure.  With knocklout poison, they only need to roll a single 1.
Yeah... if you're using (Psionic) Minor Creation to make it, you can literally dump a bucketful on them.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Havok4 on March 29, 2010, 05:28:25 PM
Yeah... if you're using (Psionic) Minor Creation to make it, you can literally dump a bucketful on them.

Which makes for a fun intimidation tactic if you use a poison with no initial damage, you minor create the poison, poor a bucket of it on the sap you want to do your bidding after demonstrating a single dose on him, then tell him you will dismiss the spell so the poison goes away if he does what you say, if he does not then his fate is assured.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Hijax on April 04, 2010, 11:49:14 AM
Yeah... if you're using (Psionic) Minor Creation to make it, you can literally dump a bucketful on them.

Which makes for a fun intimidation tactic if you use a poison with no initial damage, you minor create the poison, poor a bucket of it on the sap you want to do your bidding after demonstrating a single dose on him, then tell him you will dismiss the spell so the poison goes away if he does what you say, if he does not then his fate is assured.

I like this.

Minor created poison is also great in mass warfare. Use a baloon and drop caskets of it on the enemy army.
combine with undead rats and cancer mage for great awesome.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Havok4 on April 05, 2010, 02:47:52 AM
I just realized something. You can take the hidden talent feat from XPH to get a single first level power usable effectively 2 times per day from any class list. You could use this to take Psionic Minor Creation and gain free poison with any class from level one. Unfortunately the feat is intended to be an upgrade wild talent for high psionics games so your DM might say no to it but it would be a great addition to any poison using build that does not get access to minor creation through another method.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Hijax on April 05, 2010, 03:09:30 PM
I just realized something. You can take the hidden talent feat from XPH to get a single first level power usable effectively 2 times per day from any class list. You could use this to take Psionic Minor Creation and gain free poison with any class from level one. Unfortunately the feat is intended to be an upgrade wild talent for high psionics games so your DM might say no to it but it would be a great addition to any poison using build that does not get access to minor creation through another method.

hey, i like this.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Saxony on April 06, 2010, 07:41:15 AM
First of all, thanks Akalsaris. I realized a character should be using poisons because of RP reasons (and it sounds cool!). Your guide saved me the trouble of scouring through books and still not finding anything. Thanks.

Second, the poison "Salvo" is from Complete Scoundrel.
Title: Re: Sample Characters
Post by: Akalsaris on April 06, 2010, 08:30:24 AM
Major update!  Added several new links, 3 new and complete builds, clarified and updated some builds, added the Binder class, added in the poisons from Sandstorm and some online poisons, fixed up and rearranged the formatting in the Poisons section, and added several new poisons for Minor and Major Creation. 

Thanks for the encouragement and feedback, everyone!  Please continue to contribute to this handbook :)
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: JaronK on April 06, 2010, 10:00:31 AM
For the section on poisons you can make with Minor Creation, I know there's an online source (official) that has a poison with a DC of 26, plant based, does 2d6 con/2d6 con.  It's great for when Black Lotus won't land due to save issues.  Unfortunately, I can't remember which online suppliment it is, though I know it's sold by a guy in one of the lower planes, for what that's worth.

JaronK
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Akalsaris on April 06, 2010, 06:52:29 PM
Hmmm... is this it?

Sinmaker's Surprise - Manual of the Planes (3.0)
The demon proprietor synthesizes a special acidic poison from the acid plants native to the plane called Sinmaker’s Surprise. This concoction has two components: poison and acid. Sinmaker’s Surprise is specially formulated such that its caustic qualities remain quiescent until it comes into contact with living tissue. Therefore, it does not harm weapons or objects to which it is applied. Victims make saving throws against the poisonous component normally, but automatically take damage from the acid component.
Sinmaker's Surprise has the following characteristics:
Fortitude Save: DC 24 (injury) or DC 18 (ingested)
Initial Damage: 2d6 points of temporary Constitution damage (from poison).
Acid Damage: 1d6 points of damage per round for 3 rounds.
Secondary Damage: 2d6 points of temporary Constitution damage.
Price: 4,400gp.

Ed-Zero posted it a while back, and I forgot to add it in.  I also left out a couple others he mentioned, so looks like this is due for a mini-update.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: JaronK on April 06, 2010, 07:20:59 PM
Yes!  That's the one I meant.  The +4 save DC and automatic acid damage make it well worth considering.  Combined with a weapon of Assassination, Terrifying Strike, and Sickening Strike you've got an effective save DC of 33, which isn't bad at all.

JaronK
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Akalsaris on April 06, 2010, 07:31:50 PM
Agreed, it's a very nice one :)  

Edit: I just saved the whole document to a word file (with the codes included), and it came to 35 pages!  That's longer than my freaking term paper!
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Saxony on April 08, 2010, 01:46:13 AM
Yes!  That's the one I meant.  The +4 save DC and automatic acid damage make it well worth considering.  Combined with a weapon of Assassination, Terrifying Strike, and Sickening Strike you've got an effective save DC of 33, which isn't bad at all.

JaronK

Don't one of the Binder Tooth items from Tome of Magic grant Greater Magic Weapon? +5 to the DC again right there. Can't remember the vestige who the tooth belongs to, though.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: JaronK on April 08, 2010, 03:01:34 AM
Yes, Leraje.  That was included in my figures (24 base, +5 from Assassination on a +5 weapon assuming that tooth, Effective +4 from Terrifying and Sickening Strike.   Total 33).

JaronK
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: InnaBinder on July 15, 2010, 08:25:51 PM
Justice of Wield and Woe is a nifty little Archer class with Poison Use at 5th level and a unique spell list to make poisoned arrows more user-friendly.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Akalsaris on July 27, 2010, 03:15:59 AM
*skims his copy of Champions of Ruin*

It's an interesting PrC.  Lots of solid abilities randomly thrown together, though the 3/4 BAB is very odd given that you're going to enter it as a ranger.  And with a 1-level dip in Contemplative for the right domain, you could use your divine casting to cast Minor Creation as well.  Arrowsplit also looks like a broken spell for poisons - turn a single (poisoned) arrow into 1d4+1 identical poisoned arrows!

Good find!
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Ed-Zero on August 01, 2010, 10:21:58 PM
Oh man, finally the Advanced Player's Guide for Pathfinder came out and there are definitely some good news for poisoners here.

Alchemist:
Concentrate poison: The alchemist can combine two doses of the same poison to increase their effects. This requires two doses of the poison and 1 minute of concentration. When completed, the alchemist has one dose of poison. The poison’s frequency is extended by 50% and the save DC increases by +2. This poison must be used within 1 hour of its creation or it is ruined.

Sticky poison: Any poison the alchemist creates is sticky—when the alchemist applies it to a weapon, the weapon remains poisoned for a number of strikes equal to the alchemist’s Intelligence modifier. An alchemist must be at least 6th level before selecting this discovery.

Summoner:
Poison (Ex):
An eidolon secretes toxic venom, gaining a poison attack. Pick one bite or sting attack. Whenever the selected attack hits, the target is poisoned. Eidolon poison—type poison (injury); save Fort negates; frequency 1/round for 4 rounds; effect 1d4 Str damage; cure 1 save. The save DC is equal to 10 + 1/2 the eidolon’s HD + the eidolon’s Constitution modifier. For 2 additional evolution points, this poison deals Constitution damage instead. This poison can be used no more than once per round. The summoner must be at least 7th level before selecting this evolution.

Rogue:
Lasting Poison (Ex):
A rogue with this talent can apply poison to a weapon in such a way that it is effective for two successful attacks instead of one. The poison has a reduced effect, however, and saves made against the poison receive a +2 circumstance bonus. Applying poison in this way requires a full-round action, or a standard action if the rogue has the swift poison talent.

Master Poisoner (Ex): At 3rd level, a poisoner can use Craft (alchemy) to change the type of a poison. This requires 1 hour of work with an alchemist’s lab and a Craft (alchemy) skill check with a DC equal to the poison’s DC. If successful, the poison’s type changes to contact, ingested, inhaled, or injury. If the check fails, the poison is ruined. The poisoner also receives a bonus on Craft (alchemy) skill checks when working with poison equal to 1/2 her rogue level. This ability replaces trap sense.

Sorcerer:
Serpent’s Fang (Ex):
At 1st level, you can grow fangs as a free action. These fangs are treated as a natural weapon inflicting 1d4 points of damage plus your Strength modifier (1d3 if you are Small) plus poison (Bite—injury; save Fort DC 10 + 1/2 your sorcerer level + your
Constitution modifier; frequency 1/round for 6 rounds; effect 1 Con damage; cure 1 save). At 5th level, these fangs are considered magical for the purpose of overcoming DR and the poison damage increases to 1d2 Con. At 7th level, your poison requires 2 successful saves to cure. At 11th level, your poison damage increases to 1d4 Con. You can use your fangs for a number of rounds per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier.
   To go along with Serpents Fang, here is the endcap ability for the Serpentine Bloodline:
Scaled Soul (Su): At 20th level, you gain the shapechanger subtype, and you can assume the form of a reptilian humanoid (as alter self) or snake of Diminutive to Huge size (as beast shape III) at will. You retain the power of speech and the ability to use somatic spell components when transformed. You also become immune to poison and paralysis. You may use serpent’s fang as often as desired, and you may choose to inflict damage to any ability score.

Feats:
Master Alchemist

Prerequisite: Craft (alchemy) 5 ranks.
Benefit: You receive a +2 bonus on Craft (alchemy) checks, and you may create mundane alchemical items much more quickly than normal. When making poisons, you can create a number of doses equal to your Intelligence modifier (minimum 1) at one time. These additional doses do not increase the time required, but they do increase the raw material cost. In addition, whenever you make alchemical items or poisons using Craft (alchemy), use the item’s gp value as its sp value when determining your progress (do not multiply the item’s gp cost by 10 to determine its sp cost).

Spells:
Accelerate Poison
- Probably my favorite
School transmutation; Level druid 2, ranger 2, sorcerer/wizard 2
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (a thorn)
Range touch
Target creature touched
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw Fortitude negates; Spell Resistance yes
You hasten the onset of poison in the target. If the poison normally has an onset time, its effects begin immediately. If the poison has no onset time, its frequency is doubled, requiring two saving throws and inflicting damage twice per round or minute, though its duration is halved. Accelerate poison does not change the cure condition for the poison. If the target is affected by more than one poison, you may choose which is affected if you administered the poison; otherwise, randomly determine which poison is affected.

I'll mention the Transmute Potion to Poison spell here just to say that it's rubbish. That is all.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: InnaBinder on August 01, 2010, 10:32:43 PM
*skims his copy of Champions of Ruin*

It's an interesting PrC.  Lots of solid abilities randomly thrown together, though the 3/4 BAB is very odd given that you're going to enter it as a ranger.  And with a 1-level dip in Contemplative for the right domain, you could use your divine casting to cast Minor Creation as well.  Arrowsplit also looks like a broken spell for poisons - turn a single (poisoned) arrow into 1d4+1 identical poisoned arrows!

Good find!
Thanks.  I suspect the designer intended it to be entered with Ranger/Rogue or Ranger/Scout, justifying the lower BAB progression.  Either that, or it was created by pulling abilities from the bingo spinner.  ;)
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Akalsaris on August 08, 2010, 06:44:51 AM
I actually thought of adding a PF section since I play it as well (just played 2 sessions of it today!), but the rules for poison changed quite a bit, so I ended up not doing it.  But for any PF character interested in poisoning, the APG is definitely a must-buy :D
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Ed-Zero on August 09, 2010, 03:16:27 PM
I actually thought of adding a PF section since I play it as well (just played 2 sessions of it today!), but the rules for poison changed quite a bit, so I ended up not doing it.  But for any PF character interested in poisoning, the APG is definitely a must-buy :D
What changed about them? I haven't seen anything in the new guide that changed them..
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: McPoyo on August 09, 2010, 09:49:36 PM
I actually thought of adding a PF section since I play it as well (just played 2 sessions of it today!), but the rules for poison changed quite a bit, so I ended up not doing it.  But for any PF character interested in poisoning, the APG is definitely a must-buy :D
What changed about them? I haven't seen anything in the new guide that changed them..
Everything. They deal damage each round for a set number of rounds based on the poison. The damage is weaker (on the scale of 1 point of damage each round, vs 1 die of damage immediate plus possible secondary type deal), and for nearly all the poisons, one successful save ends the effect. They get a save every round. That poison they failed their first save against? They took one damage from it. Next round, they succeed, and never have to worry about the other 5 rounds of damage they may have taken.

The DCs are lower, as well, for a lot of them. Multiple instances of a poison no longer require multiple saves, but now increase the DC for the single save you make each round, etc.

It's in the core rulebook in the DM section. "Afflictions" is the header they have them under, iirc.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Ed-Zero on August 09, 2010, 10:42:01 PM
Well now, just checked the pfsrd and was enlightened on their changes to poison. I would actually say their changes only made poisons stronger. DC's were the hardest thing to raise for poisons. That's why there's so many feats in 3rd party books that give just a +2. Minor creation up some black lotus extract. Dump 10 doses on your swords, dual wield and cut someone, that's a dc 30 x2. Not the easiest thing to save against low level. Heck, make a giant vat of black lotus and keep dipping them in there for incredibly high saves assuming 1 dip on counts as a dose. Then when your poison actually gets through, you'll be doing 2d6 con damage every round. To remedy the onset time I would enchant your weapons permanently with accelerate poison spell so any poison you hit someone with starts immediately.

I might even say that purple worm poison is stronger than black lotus extract when using the accelerate poison spell since it has no onset time, will require 3 saves per round and do 2d3 strength damage instead of con. Oh yeah, has a higher dc too.

To look at both poisons closer, in 6 rounds BLE will do 6d6 con if a saves are failed while PWP does 6d3 strength damage over 3 rounds. As before, BLE pretty much beats everything especially now that its easier to up the dc.

I am going to complain a little once more that we need to have something that bypasses immunity to poison. There should be a feat that says if you have a poison over 30 or 40 dc then it can bypass immunity or hit for half damage or something
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: McPoyo on August 09, 2010, 10:55:11 PM
You'd have to quickdraw multiple weapons for that, since you can't have morethan one doesat a time applied to a weapon.

And that's upper end. It weakened them for effect/gp.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Ed-Zero on August 09, 2010, 11:01:27 PM
You'd have to quickdraw multiple weapons for that, since you can't have morethan one doesat a time applied to a weapon.

And that's upper end. It weakened them for effect/gp.
I was talking about attacking with 2 separate weapons, my bringing up multiple doses of 1 poison is because you can stack the poison on top of eachother for a +2 cumulative bonus, meaning that one additional dose of BLE will have a dc of 22 instead of 20.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: McPoyo on August 09, 2010, 11:03:15 PM
You'd have to quickdraw multiple weapons for that, since you can't have morethan one doesat a time applied to a weapon.

And that's upper end. It weakened them for effect/gp.
I was talking about attacking with 2 separate weapons, my bringing up multiple doses of 1 poison is because you can stack the poison on top of eachother for a +2 cumulative bonus, meaning that one additional dose of BLE will have a dc of 22 instead of 20.
that's not 10 doses, though
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Ed-Zero on August 09, 2010, 11:07:43 PM
You'd have to quickdraw multiple weapons for that, since you can't have morethan one doesat a time applied to a weapon.

And that's upper end. It weakened them for effect/gp.
I was talking about attacking with 2 separate weapons, my bringing up multiple doses of 1 poison is because you can stack the poison on top of eachother for a +2 cumulative bonus, meaning that one additional dose of BLE will have a dc of 22 instead of 20.
that's not 10 doses, though
Uh, obviously I was using 1 dose as a example as they ALL stack with eachother. It would matter if I said 1 dose or 30,000, the effect would be the same... the dc would go up. Which is why I like the new rules for poison better.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Akalsaris on August 10, 2010, 02:59:30 AM
Hrm...here's a few poison using PF builds then:

Human Druid 20!  The classic build makes a happy return.  The variants in the APG mostly trade away venom immunity, so avoid them.  Sadly, none of the variants that I could find give druids the fabricate domain for their nature's bond power.

Human Wiz 10/Loremaster 10!  Yep, wizards still rock the minor creation.

Human Rogue 3/Wiz 3/Arcane Trickster 10/Loremaster 4.  BAB +10 (Ouch!), CL 17, SA +7d6.  Gets poison use and can change poison types from the rogue levels, so can run around with improved invisibility, doing SA with poisons and the like.

Human Fighter 1/Cleric 19.  Yessir, another no-brainer with the fabricate domain (from the Pathfinder Chronicles Setting Book). 

No alchemist builds, since alchemist is weak and gives pretty much nothing that I wouldn't get from another class :P

Also!  Updated the guide to include another poison-using build from the Iron Chef challenges!
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Toptomcat on August 27, 2010, 04:03:51 AM
It was said kind of cursorily by Havok4 back on page 5, but I think the Hidden Talent-Psionic Minor Creation trick deserves repetition and inclusion in the main guide.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Havok4 on August 28, 2010, 02:29:11 AM
It is an excellent and economical way to boost your characters combat abilities with poison, it also is a way to gain a combat benefit the proper skill point investment from a very early level.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Dark_Juggernaut on August 31, 2010, 01:27:06 AM
I don't see anywhere in Savage Species that says Aboleth Mucus is alchemical OR poison.  I think it's simply a specialty item created by filling a vial with the stuff off the monster.  If anyone could site where/how the rules support it being alchemical/poison (or both), that would be great.

The reason I ask is because I'm rolling up an Alchemist in a Pathfinder game soon and his class abilities apply differently between alchemical items and poisons specifically.  The feat Master Alchemist does as well.  If it counts as both, that would be a really great way to approach poisons.  From the looks of it's entry, though...it seems like something you can't craft at all.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: The_Mad_Linguist on August 31, 2010, 01:59:49 AM
Kingdom of Kalamar - Player's guide has rules (page 119) on how you can alter poisons you craft to make them stronger or weaker (changing DC, or delivery type, or amount of damage).  It's pretty useful.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Archao on September 01, 2010, 01:30:41 AM
Consider the Chaos Flask (Planar Handbook p76) for cheap poisons. Buy it for 100gp and with a DC 13 Wisdom check, you have any nonmagical poison.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Akalsaris on September 09, 2010, 12:07:03 AM
I don't see anywhere in Savage Species that says Aboleth Mucus is alchemical OR poison.  I think it's simply a specialty item created by filling a vial with the stuff off the monster.  If anyone could site where/how the rules support it being alchemical/poison (or both), that would be great.

The reason I ask is because I'm rolling up an Alchemist in a Pathfinder game soon and his class abilities apply differently between alchemical items and poisons specifically.  The feat Master Alchemist does as well.  If it counts as both, that would be a really great way to approach poisons.  From the looks of it's entry, though...it seems like something you can't craft at all.

Yeah, I think the mucus is a unique item that is neither alchemical or poison.  It's also pretty broken, so that's not such a bad thing.

Anyhow, I'll update the handbook with the Chaos Flask and the Hidden Talent-Psionic Minor Creation trick, both are definitely cool ideas. 
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: snakeman830 on September 10, 2010, 04:03:10 PM
nitpick: Thri-kreen have been printed in the Expanded Psionics Handbook more recently than Savage Species.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: PhaedrusXY on September 10, 2010, 04:44:25 PM
Consider the Chaos Flask (Planar Handbook p76) for cheap poisons. Buy it for 100gp and with a DC 13 Wisdom check, you have any nonmagical poison.
You can do the same thing with Shapesand from Sandstorm, technically.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Akalsaris on September 13, 2010, 12:24:26 AM
I don't actually own the XPH, I use the SRD for my psionics needs.  So I'll update for the thri-kreen.  And will add a note on shapesand as well :)
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Nunkuruji on October 11, 2010, 08:54:06 PM
Having been DMing City of the Spider Queen, there is an interesting template that might be exploited to create poison.

Arachnoid template (Animal, Beast, Magical Beast)
(Usually used by Drow, of course)

Grants a creature a Str damage poison attack bite, based on size.

Mutate your favorite High Con, High HD critter, and happy harvesting.

[spoiler]The adventure itself uses it to create an Advanced Gray Render with a DC35 poison and +33 grapple on its bite. Hope you have Freedom of Movement, etc :)[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: PlzBreakMyCampaign on January 16, 2011, 02:50:35 AM
This handbook has several good resources in it. I have gone through it carefully and have noticed some of the references are to the wrong books. Adding page numbers would REALLY help. An example is Black lotus extract (CAdv98 updated from A&EG) not (DMG)

Also don't forget DragMag301 p58 for +2 to DCs  ;)

I also sugggest that the greensickness be DC35. It seems that Craft DC = Save DC + 2, if volcanic gas can be trusted though I still don't know how you got that DC (Sa 24,25 lists none). Its even close to the Black lotus extract cost.

What is needed is a regular to greater poison conversion. Wyvern poison might work for that. If craft and fort DC scale equally then it is craft DC = Save DC + 8. This makes sense as it is animal-based, more con, and an injury poison. Gargantuan wyvern poison's save DC is 21 so its craft would be 29. The reason I chose greater wyvern is that it has the same CR as the greensickness. So it is about as effective (once activated) as greensickness in terms of lethality. They are also 1k away in price. I understand that craft DC and poison DC are measure of different things but this does point to a more conservative Craft estimate of 30 or 35 rather than 40 or 45. To be sure though, we could do regressions on various classes of poisons.

Lastly a section on how to meet those Craft DCs would be awesome. Come to think of it the SRD seems to suggest that only a DC20 is needed (for superior or complex items):
Quote
When casting the spell minor creation, you must succeed on an appropriate Craft check to make a complex item.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: snakeman830 on January 17, 2011, 07:39:54 AM
I want to mention Scentbreaker from Tome and Blood.  It isn't a poison, but it behaves like one.  It's a splash weapon that lingers for 1 hour.  Anything caught in the splash or coming through the hit area must make a DC 15 Fort save or lose the scent quality (initial 1 minute, secondary 1 hour).  A direct hit boosts the save DC to 18.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Akalsaris on January 17, 2011, 08:40:19 AM
Hrm, page numbers would be a good idea, I'll get to work on those.  Any suggestions for other lists of poisons that would be useful?  There are lots that I haven't covered simply because nobody needs another DC 13 1d4 Str ingested poison. 

What is in Dragon 301, Pg. 58?

A section on meeting craft DCs is another good idea.  I'll see what I can put together.

Also, Scentbreaker sounds pretty cool.  I'd love to do an alchemical items guide at some point, there's a lot of nifty stuff out there.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Endarire on January 18, 2011, 12:58:47 AM
Thri-Kreen were updated again in Shining South, a Faerun book.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Shortstraw on January 27, 2011, 05:37:01 AM
First off an excellent guide. Secondly I didn't see the water ninja from Dragon Magazine 354 p 87. Instead of invisibility it creates a cloud of obscuring mist (and at higher levels solid fog) which it can lace with either contact or inhaled poisons and by using a couple of the ki power feats you can get a 20' radius cloud of poison that obscures vision prevents movement and lasts for several rounds poisoning each round for a single dose of poison (you are immune to inhaled poisons but not contact). (also works well with combat reflexes and a poisoned kusari-gama [or bladed scarf if you are using pathfinder])
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Akalsaris on January 28, 2011, 07:54:56 AM
Very interesting - could definitely make an interesting character if you can make the clouds as a swift action.  I'll try to get that issue, and if it is as good as it sounds I'll add it in.  Thanks for the contribution!
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: bearsarebrown on February 01, 2011, 07:51:08 AM
Clouds are in fact a swift action.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Theomniadept on February 13, 2011, 07:46:18 AM
Okay, I am not an expert on sources, but I have the Complete Scoundrel and the errata: according to this guide Poison Expert adds 2 to the DCs of poisons crafted but according to the book it works much like Poison Master in that you pick a type of poison and increase the DC of that specific poison by 1. I don't see any errata revisions so you'll have to point out where any sources saying otherwise exist, but if they don't you may want to change that little bit in the guide.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Akalsaris on February 16, 2011, 06:34:03 AM
Thanks for the catch Theomniadept!  I'm not really sure how I made that mistake.  I've fixed it with the proper entry. 

In other news, I've asked several Iron Chef participants if I can include their builds in the guide, and hope to gain their assent soon!  Hopefully some new assassins, animal lords, and ardent dilettentes will soon grace this guide. 

I'll also add a section on the variant ninja since I just got Dragon 354 :D
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Theomniadept on February 18, 2011, 08:03:04 PM
No trouble at all Alkasaris, though I was hoping there was some source that made that feat a bit more viable. Ah well, the tragedy of the poison brewer never ceases.

Thanks for the guide though, my Hexblade with his Imp familiar is finding it is awful convenient to have a tiny glaive with Imp poison, a dark companion, hexblade curse, and a Virulent Scythe with the triple weapon capsule on it. That imp's poison's hit a few times and we're not too far into the game yet. Liking the feat Master of Poisons but it should be noted that technically drawing the vial of poison is a move action so it's not exactly broken (not that anyone has said that, just pointing out someone with poison use + quick draw has the same action economy as someone without quick draw taking Master of Poisons).

That said, the Complete Scoundrel poison feats state an odd line:

"This feat has no effect on poisons used by other creatures, even if you craft those poisons. It also has no effect on natural poisons (those exuded from a creature’s body)."

So, this is technically saying the feats don't add to ANYTHING that has a specific name like (size) Monstrous (creature) poison, or good stuff like Dragon Bile. And, while I'm at it, plants are creatures so would this disallow the feat for something that is given by a plant (not a plant monster, something natural)?

I only bring this up because if the ruling says this feat doesn't apply to stuff like that it may be worth looking over to see whether it is a turkey or not. Also, the requirements for these feats specifically states 'poison use', and while any sensible DM would allow Master of Poisons to count towards it, it does probably need to be stated.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: X-Codes on February 26, 2011, 07:44:49 AM
Black Dragon Lineage from Dragon Magic.  Contact poison, deals HP damage and fatigues as both initial and secondary damage (save negates fatigue and halves damage).  Created by expending an arcane spell slot, which also determines the damage and DC.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: The_Mad_Linguist on February 26, 2011, 08:12:25 AM

That said, the Complete Scoundrel poison feats state an odd line:

"This feat has no effect on poisons used by other creatures, even if you craft those poisons. It also has no effect on natural poisons (those exuded from a creature’s body)."

So, this is technically saying the feats don't add to ANYTHING that has a specific name like (size) Monstrous (creature) poison, or good stuff like Dragon Bile. And, while I'm at it, plants are creatures so would this disallow the feat for something that is given by a plant (not a plant monster, something natural)?
I believe it's no longer considered natural if you produce it with a craft check - there's text somewhere along the lines of "crafting poisons like dragon bile includes far more steps than just putting some dragon bile in a bottle".

Also, normal non monster plants aren't creatures, since they don't have wis or cha scores.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Akalsaris on March 07, 2011, 08:22:11 AM
Small update - added Scentbreaker, the Water ninjas, and adjusted the craft DC for Greensickness. 

I'll do something on craft DCs next, so please post anything you can think of.  A Poison Kit masterwork item for +2 seems appropriate.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: JaronK on March 07, 2011, 11:32:46 PM
I was looking through that Complete McGyver handbook, and Weapon Capsules were mentioned.  The fun thing is that such a capsule lets you put up to three doses of poison on your weapon as a swift action.  Are there any specific rules for what happens if it's the same poison?  Does the DC go up, or do enemies just have to make three saves?  If it's the latter and you've already got a source of free poison (like Minor Creation) that's all kinds of useful... just use the capsule to load three doses on your weapon, then at the start of the fight you hit your enemy once (three saves), reload as a swift action, then force three more saves.

JaronK
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Lycanthromancer on March 08, 2011, 01:54:38 AM
Dye arrows (from Pathfinder) allow you to fill the bulbs on the ends and splatter liquids (such as dye) on a ranged touch attack that deals no damage, but at the range of whatever bow you've got.

So fill up some dye arrows with contact poison.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: lordxaviar on April 29, 2011, 05:13:24 PM
thanx I am glad i found this.. I am making a list for D n D of posions... and will post on en world via a link to 4shared .com that way no problem and you can download the compiled list complete without all the searching..
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: CrimsonDeath on April 30, 2011, 03:42:27 AM
And, while I'm at it, plants are creatures so would this disallow the feat for something that is given by a plant (not a plant monster, something natural)?
In game terms, a plant is only a creature if it has a Wisdom score.  Normal grass and trees, for example, would be treated as objects, even though they're alive.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Akalsaris on April 30, 2011, 08:47:10 PM
thanx I am glad i found this.. I am making a list for D n D of posions... and will post on en world via a link to 4shared .com that way no problem and you can download the compiled list complete without all the searching..

Thanks, and good luck with the list!

When making the list, keep in mind that many 3.0 poisons from the BoVD were updated in Dungeonscape, so their ridiculous DCs are incorrect.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: The_Mad_Linguist on May 11, 2011, 07:17:59 AM
thanx I am glad i found this.. I am making a list for D n D of posions... and will post on en world via a link to 4shared .com that way no problem and you can download the compiled list complete without all the searching..

Great.  If you want, I'll send you a list of kalamar stuff as well, if you give me the format.
Title: Re: Poisons: listed by highest initial dmg, etc
Post by: The_Laughing_Man on July 03, 2011, 09:35:15 PM
...
DC 22: Eyeblast (Blindness) (C. Adv?)
...

Eyeblast is from the Book of Vile Darkness p.44. (Injury DC 22 Blindness, Craft DC 23)
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Maat_Mons on September 10, 2011, 04:50:54 AM
What is in Dragon 301, Pg. 58?

An article on various alchemical items.  The ones you would be interested in are in the "Poisons and Malefics" section.  

[spoiler]
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj206/Maat_Mons/PoisonsandMalefics2.jpg)
[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: nijineko on October 14, 2011, 06:57:38 PM
was the poisonmaster prestige added to this handbook?

it allows you to apply metaposion effects (extend, empower, maximize, twin, quicken), gain posion secrets (change application method, contact to inhalant, anyone?), gain dr/-, become immune to all posions....

plus it is 100% official wotc material.

from the same source is a feat that grants immune to massive damage, and a psionic power that does 2d6 twice to the ability score of choice... among other goodies.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Tr011 on October 14, 2011, 07:28:02 PM
plus it is 100% official wotc material.
How come it's not listed in the 100% official wotc prestige class index? What source is it?

/edit: found it. But I assume it's not only me who will ask how this is official wotc material, at least my DM would ask, too. Got anything on that?
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: nijineko on October 14, 2011, 08:39:48 PM
athas.org is the official 3.x dark sun site as per the licensing agreement with wotc. not only is material they produce considered 100% official by wotc, they are mandated to continue producing content as part of the license.

the reason it is not listed in the wotc index is because wotc did not write it themselves. however, due to the license, it is 100% official, nonetheless.


here is the basic text of the license agreement:
[spoiler]Official Homepage Requirements

Wizards of the Coast values its intellectual property a great deal, and it also values its customers who make purchase decisions based on their love of the IP. As sales dwindle on certain worlds that we create, we make the decision to no longer produce printed materials for these worlds. As Wizards of the Coast desires to keep previous customers happy with the investment they have made with our products, we allow select websites to take over the duties of providing new materials for retired intellectual properties.

In order to be considered an official website, the site must:

    Portray the intellectual property in a manner consistent with its positioning. This information can be found in the Brand Positioning documents. In lieu of these documents, work with the Brand Manager of D&D Worlds on an approved look.
    Retain the iconic heroes, locations, magical items, and artifacts. Official sites are not allowed to kill off major PCs, destroy well-known artifacts, and similar activities.
    Official sites must have links back to the Wizards of the Coast website that tie to:
        Message Boards
        Chat Rooms
        Mailing Lists
        Online Catalog
        Online Store
        Campaign Worlds
        Dragon Magazine
        Dungeon Adventures
        Player Registry
        Books
    Official sites must not create their own community sections that duplicate those services and features offered by the Wizards of the Coast website.
    Provide new content for fans within the guidelines in sections A and B. While there is a great deal of latitude granted in this regard, official websites should remain in close contact with the Brand Manager of D&D Worlds (oracle@wizards.com).
    Keep Wizards of the Coast related materials separate from other non-game sections of the website. This means we don’t want to see other business ventures mixed in with our intellectual property, such as pornographic offerings, get-rich-quick schemes, etc.
    Conduct its activities in a professional and businesslike manner. This means that all actions on the part of visitors to the website should conform to generally accepted business standards. Sites should never sell visitor information records to other firms for the purpose of marketing, for instance.
    Refer players to the Other Worlds section of the Wizards of the Coast page instead of their own URL. While many fans will bookmark your own page anyway, it’s important that fans receive the other information presented at the Other Worlds section.
    Make the material available for free. You’re not allowed to charge for access to official products.

We encourage fan sites to begin making updates to their content to bring it in-line with 3rd Edition Dungeons & Dragons as soon as possible. We will begin phasing out web pages that do not offer 3rd Edition Dungeons & Dragons content soon after the launch of the new game system in August 2000.

In exchange for providing all of the official new material for an intellectual property, Wizards of the Coast agrees to:

    Provide prizes and other support materials at a level established by the D&D Worlds Brand Manager.
    Establish a direct link from the Wizards of the Coast web page to the official fan site.
    Have only a single source for all official content, that being your site. Other sites that wish to be listed as part of the IP will be directed to the official website.

This agreement will change as business necessities force us to alter the manner in which we do business. Should the intellectual property currently being supported by the official website be brought back into print, the official status of the web site will be removed and Wizards of the Coast will begin creating new content to support the relaunch of the game (or work with the current official site to migrate content over).

Content created on the official website is considered to be derivative work (as it is based on the intellectual property owned by Wizards of the Coast). This means that fan-created add-ons (such as new net books, adventures, etc.) are jointly owned by both Wizards of the Coast and the creator; neither can do anything outside the official website without the permission of the other.

Good Gaming!

Jim Butler, Brand Manager D&D Worlds Wizards of the Coast, Inc. [/spoiler]
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Akalsaris on October 14, 2011, 10:22:37 PM
Poisonmaster isn't listed because I had never heard of athas.org before :P  I'll add the PrC to the list. I'm a little dubious about the Poisonmaster, since it kind of falls into the trap of 'All I can do is poisons' - I really wish it had a way to remove immunity to poisons with all of its heavy focus on them. But there's no denying that the class can certainly use poisons effectively :P

On another note, I'm starting a new character in a few days - this one is an elven rogue/wiz/unseen seer. It should be interesting to see how effectively I can use poisons on the character...sadly, the campaign is undead-heavy and the character isn't really built for melee combat, so I don't have any great expectations.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: InnaBinder on October 14, 2011, 10:47:55 PM
Poisonmaster isn't listed because I had never heard of athas.org before :P  I'll add the PrC to the list. I'm a little dubious about the Poisonmaster, since it kind of falls into the trap of 'All I can do is poisons' - I really wish it had a way to remove immunity to poisons with all of its heavy focus on them. But there's no denying that the class can certainly use poisons effectively :P

On another note, I'm starting a new character in a few days - this one is an elven rogue/wiz/unseen seer. It should be interesting to see how effectively I can use poisons on the character...sadly, the campaign is undead-heavy and the character isn't really built for melee combat, so I don't have any great expectations.
[derail] Welcome back to the interwebz, Akal.  I was beginning to think you got a life or something.   :p[/derail]
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: nijineko on October 14, 2011, 10:49:03 PM
positive energy based poison fo undead?

while you are at it, there are official 3.x sites for planescape, spelljammer, birthright, mystara, and ravenloft too. very likely to have poisons. ^^ and thank you for excellent resources.

was that a poison specific list, or a prestige general list? if the latter, then there is a bunch of prestiges to add.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: DawnbringerSO on October 18, 2011, 03:43:43 PM
What is in Dragon 301, Pg. 58?

An article on various alchemical items.  The ones you would be interested in are in the "Poisons and Malefics" section.  

[spoiler]
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj206/Maat_Mons/PoisonsandMalefics2.jpg)
[/spoiler]

Wow, that is sooooo awesome, thanks for that.
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: Akalsaris on October 20, 2011, 10:25:13 PM
Thanks the welcome back, InnaBinder. I've been working 2 jobs these past few months (and before that it was the last month of grad school), so I've spent more time lurking than posting.

The prestige class list is poison-specific, though I made some exceptions for classes that get an animal companion with good poisons.

Sadly, the game I'll be in has banned fabricate and minor/major creation (Iron Kingdoms-specific rules), and since it's L15, the worthwhile poisons are probably out of my limited budget, though I picked up poison immunity so I can use any that the party comes across =)

I have a few hours' free time today, so I'll add some page numbers for poisons and add that Dragon article into the poisons section. If I'm feeling extra frisky, maybe I'll check Birthright.org for any poisons there
Title: Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
Post by: nijineko on October 21, 2011, 08:09:55 AM
=D