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Play Like You Have To! => D&D 4e => 4e Optimization => Topic started by: Runestar on May 31, 2008, 05:01:54 AM

Title: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Runestar on May 31, 2008, 05:01:54 AM
Just thought I would get the ball rolling. Maybe we can start identifying potentially powerful stuff and rebuild the splendour of the CO boards in its prime. :P

1) This has already been raised on the other boards, but I thought I would discuss it here as well.
Astral storm vs meteor swarm. However you look at it, astral storm seems mathematically superior in every aspect. More damage and able to punch through resistances more easily. Does this seem odd, when we consider that the wizard should be a better blaster? Or was it deliberately weakened with the assumption that a wizard would augment it to an encounter power via the archmage epic destiny? :confused

2) Cleave - can I target the same foe twice, for weapon+2str damage? Does this then not make reaping strike useless?

3) How does temp hp interact with minions? No effect, since they automatically die when hit anyways?


Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: PhoenixInferno on May 31, 2008, 05:38:45 AM
A2 I don't think so - Cleave should require a secondary target that is separate from the primary.
A3 Temp HP interacts with minions as normal, so you can make your minions last a little longer.  This was mentioned in the "Minions" excerpt.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Runestar on May 31, 2008, 05:54:51 AM
A2 I don't think so - Cleave should require a secondary target that is separate from the primary.

Problem is that its entry states nothing of the sort. It simply states that I may strike a foe adjacent to me for str mod damage, which technically does not exclude the original target (though its flavour suggests otherwise).
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: X-Codes on May 31, 2008, 06:07:30 AM
A2 I don't think so - Cleave should require a secondary target that is separate from the primary.

Problem is that its entry states nothing of the sort. It simply states that I may strike a foe adjacent to me for str mod damage, which technically does not exclude the original target (though its flavour suggests otherwise).
Lemme put it to you this way:

Expect Errata.

Seriously, the new PHB is full of little errors like this.  It's nothing on the scale of Bo9, but really is a lot more than what should have happened given the CO review.  Chances are a lot of what was said by the reviewers was ignored, because I doubt that anyone really looking would have missed this.

Also, Minions don't die when hit.  They have 1 HP.  As such, Temp HP works normally.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: brislove on May 31, 2008, 06:33:03 AM
A1: Yup astral storm is simply better. It doesn't hit allies either ^_^.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Runestar on May 31, 2008, 06:38:53 AM
Quote
Also, Minions don't die when hit.  They have 1 HP.  As such, Temp HP works normally.

Does this not seem fundamentally at odds with the rationale behind giving them 1hp in the first place?

The idea is that they do not actually have only 1hp, but that they are effectively treated as only having just 1 hp for all intents when interacting with the PCs. For example, they will likely have much more if they were say, raiding a village or engaging in some other activity which did not involve the PCs. Else, the horde of legion devils could easily have been repelled just by scattering caltrops on the floor or anything else which deals 1 damage.

Likewise, page55 of the DMG does state that a minion is destroyed when it takes any amount of damage.

Quote
A3 Temp HP interacts with minions as normal, so you can make your minions last a little longer.  This was mentioned in the "Minions" excerpt.

Where exactly? I can't seem it locate anything of the sort... :confused
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Gojirazard on May 31, 2008, 07:16:46 AM
Fighter paragon class Swordmaster's 11th level ability steel grace says, at least in my copy, that I can use reaping strike or containing strike in place of my basic melee attack when charging with sword.

I can't seem to locate Containing Strike. Can anyone else?
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: AlienFromBeyond on May 31, 2008, 07:25:52 AM
Fighter paragon class Swordmaster's 11th level ability steel grace says, at least in my copy, that I can use reaping strike or containing strike in place of my basic melee attack when charging with sword.

I can't seem to locate Containing Strike. Can anyone else?
Nope, because it's not in the book anywhere. Nice job eh? Kind of glad I got the pdf, makes me want to wait for the 2nd printing when they fix all this.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Runestar on May 31, 2008, 09:15:55 AM
A5) Compare the skill training feat with the multiclass feats. Skill training lets me be trained in a skill, depending on which class I opt to multiclass in. The multiclass feats allow me the same benefit, while adding in a secondary benefit as well (typically a 1/encounter ability).

The only difference is that skill training has no prerequisites, and that it can be taken multiple times. Assuming I have no intention of multiclassing, taking the multiclass feat to obtain the appropriate class skill seems strictly superior to taking skill training.

For instance, instead of my fighter taking skill training: thievery, I could have him take "sneak of shadows", gaining both thievery as a class skill and the ability to sneak attack 1/encounter.

Deliberate or oversight? :)
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: AlienFromBeyond on May 31, 2008, 09:20:53 AM
Partially deliberate I think. If you want Thievery, chances are you want your character to be a little Rogue-y and have the Dex to get the multiclass feat, so BAM, two-for-one. On the other hand, what if you want a different multiclass feat because of a paragon path? Suddenly, choices!
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Llochlyn on May 31, 2008, 02:23:34 PM
Q7 When you select a skill to be trained in, you gain a permanent +5 bonus to that skill. You can’t gain training in a skill more than once.

Also, the rogue is automatically trained in Stealth and Thivery + 4 other skills from a set including... stealth an thievery. 

So, wtf ?
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: X-Codes on May 31, 2008, 11:35:15 PM
Q7 When you select a skill to be trained in, you gain a permanent +5 bonus to that skill. You can’t gain training in a skill more than once.

Also, the rogue is automatically trained in Stealth and Thivery + 4 other skills from a set including... stealth an thievery. 

So, wtf ?
A7) That's the Rogue's class skill list.  If they're trained in Thievery and Stealth but those weren't class skills then thats also a big wtf, and if something else was to reference the Rogue's class skill list then you'd run into even more serious problems.

In other words, they're listed for completeness, not for double-training.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Mister D on June 01, 2008, 12:11:48 AM
Do I get it right that close bursts attacks don't provoke attacks of opportunity? Thunderwave!!
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Momar on June 01, 2008, 08:41:29 AM
2) Cleave - can I target the same foe twice, for weapon+2str damage? Does this then not make reaping strike useless?

I don't see anything preventing this at present, though it does seem a good target for errata. Note that reaping strike isn't made entirely useless, as it does some damage on a miss, while cleave would be only hurting on a hit.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: brislove on June 01, 2008, 08:27:47 PM
Do I get it right that close bursts attacks don't provoke attacks of opportunity? Thunderwave!!

Close attacks do not provoke opportunity attacks. however thunder wave is a blast not a burst :-p
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Momar on June 01, 2008, 08:30:12 PM
3) How does temp hp interact with minions? No effect, since they automatically die when hit anyways?

Aside from the DMG the MM also states that minions die when they take any amount of damage (check the glossary), so temporary hp won't help.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Ieniemienie on June 01, 2008, 08:42:27 PM
Q8 Where is the starting gold listed? can't find it anywhere...
Q9 Where did the Ride skill go?
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Mister D on June 01, 2008, 08:44:02 PM
Do I get it right that close bursts attacks don't provoke attacks of opportunity? Thunderwave!!

Close attacks do not provoke opportunity attacks. however thunder wave is a blast not a burst :-p




OOOOOOps... well, that's what I meant  :D
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Momar on June 01, 2008, 08:52:42 PM
A8: Starting gold is 100 gp. It's on page 18, under Skills, Feats, Powers, and Equipment.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: highbulp on June 01, 2008, 09:13:55 PM
Q9 Where did the Ride skill go?

A9 Rules for Mounts are in the DMG. There is no Ride skill--Nature includes training an animal, and Acrobatics/Athletics would probably include any neat tricks you wanted to do while mounted.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Risada on June 01, 2008, 09:31:01 PM
Q10: How does the 13th level Paladin power Radiant Charge work? You can fly up to your Wisdom mod and attack, but it also requires that you charge the enemy. Question is: you fly then charge or you charge while you fly?
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Runestar on June 02, 2008, 04:11:11 AM
Q10: How does the 13th level Paladin power Radiant Charge work? You can fly up to your Wisdom mod and attack, but it also requires that you charge the enemy. Question is: you fly then charge or you charge while you fly?

I think you make a flying charge.

Also, for the earlier question about containing strike, it is oddly enough, detailed in the MM (page50) as a death knight ability. Weird...
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: brislove on June 02, 2008, 08:27:37 AM
it seems they removed that power since fighters just get it for free, it's call basic attack. If they have the target marked it is containing struck.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Kuroimaken on June 02, 2008, 08:52:21 AM
Q11: Can you use a Warlock's Eldritch Blast in conjunction with powers that require Ranged weapons to work? The description for Eldritch Blast says it can be considered a basic ranged attack for purposes of interacting with powers, so does that mean it works with, for instance, Twin Strike?
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: brislove on June 02, 2008, 09:33:06 AM
A11: Nope, it's a ranged basic attack not a ranged weapon. as such you wouldn't be able to use it with something like twin strike.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Kuroimaken on June 02, 2008, 05:44:18 PM
Q11B: What's the point of it having that bit of description, then? XD
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Dan2 on June 02, 2008, 06:01:41 PM
A11B: For the effect of things like Warlord powers.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Dan2 on June 02, 2008, 10:02:25 PM
Do I get it right that close bursts attacks don't provoke attacks of opportunity? Thunderwave!!

Page 271 of the PHB says that area powers provoke opportunity attacks.  It also lists close bursts and blasts as area of effect.

For the record...

Also: Q12: can you avoid making a saving throw by delaying and not taking an action? (pg 288 of PHB)
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: AlienFromBeyond on June 02, 2008, 10:05:21 PM
Do I get it right that close bursts attacks don't provoke attacks of opportunity? Thunderwave!!

Page 271 of the PHB says that area powers provoke opportunity attacks.  It also lists close bursts and blasts as area of effect.

For the record...
Close powers are AoEs, but they are not an Area power. Scorching Burst is an Area power, Ray of Frost is a Ranged power, Thunderwave is a Close power. You need not fear an opportunity attack when using Thunderwave, but you would from Scorching Burst or Ray of Frost.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Dan2 on June 02, 2008, 10:14:00 PM
Do I get it right that close bursts attacks don't provoke attacks of opportunity? Thunderwave!!

Page 271 of the PHB says that area powers provoke opportunity attacks.  It also lists close bursts and blasts as area of effect.

For the record...

Also Q12: can you avoid making a saving throw by delaying an not taking an action? (pg 288 of PHB)
Close powers are AoEs, but they are not an Area power. Scorching Burst is an Area power, Ray of Frost is a Ranged power, Thunderwave is a Close power. You need not fear an opportunity attack when using Thunderwave, but you would from Scorching Burst or Ray of Frost.

Ah, thank you, I somehow missed the column break and the reclassification.

Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: AlienFromBeyond on June 02, 2008, 10:19:35 PM
Do I get it right that close bursts attacks don't provoke attacks of opportunity? Thunderwave!!

Page 271 of the PHB says that area powers provoke opportunity attacks.  It also lists close bursts and blasts as area of effect.

For the record...

Also: Q12: can you avoid making a saving throw by delaying and not taking an action? (pg 288 of PHB)
You mean Delaying to the point where you lose the Delayed turn and thus never go to the end of turn step? Sure, but all harmful effects are start of turn, I see no reason why the hell you wouldn't want to make saving throws against stuff on you. If I understand your question correctly.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Dan2 on June 02, 2008, 10:24:21 PM
Just curious... :wink It's a nice rules clarification for those PCs that Delay out of confusion and forget to jump back in... :smirk
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: AlterFrom on June 03, 2008, 01:26:16 AM
Q13: I'm not entirely sure how Wizard Dailies work. Is it that every time I would choose a daily power I choose two, and the same for utilities, then after every extended rest, I prepare a number of each type equal to the number I know divided by two?
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Dan2 on June 03, 2008, 01:56:38 AM
A13: Every time you would choose a Daily Attack Spell (level 5, 9, and so on) you choose two to add to your spellbook.  The same goes for Utility Spells.
Then, when you prepare spells for the day, you would prepare one for each level you know (1 level 5, 1 level 9, and so on).

It says prepare the number that you can cast per day, but it also says that you can't prepare multiples of the same spell.  So basically you prepare one of each level.

Also, when you reach level 15, you replace both of the level 1 Daily Attack Spells that you know with the two level 15 Daily Attack Spells that you want.

Essentially, it just gives wizards some options for versatility each day.
It's an excuse to give the wizard a spellbook, and it's a throwback to Vancian magic.

EDIT: It gets even better if you choose the Expanded Spellbook Feat... :smirk
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Kuroimaken on June 03, 2008, 02:05:59 AM
Quote
A11B: For the effect of things like Warlord powers.
Heh. So that's pretty limited.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: ImperiousLeader on June 03, 2008, 04:20:17 AM
Quote
A11B: For the effect of things like Warlord powers.
Heh. So that's pretty limited.

Eldritch Blasts should also work with the Bracers of the Perfect Shot, something that archer Rangers can't do.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Runestar on June 03, 2008, 04:23:39 AM
A14) How do reliable exploits which target multiple foes work? The rule states that if I miss, I retain the use of said exploit.

So say I use a fighter reliable exploit which targets 4 enemies. I hit 3 and miss one. Is it considered expended or not?
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: heffroncm on June 03, 2008, 05:19:04 AM
A14) How do reliable exploits which target multiple foes work? The rule states that if I miss, I retain the use of said exploit.

So say I use a fighter reliable exploit which targets 4 enemies. I hit 3 and miss one. Is it considered expended or not?

A14) It appears to be the case that you do not expend the power if even one enemy is missed.  However, the level 9 Fighter Daily Thicket of Blades is the only power in the book that both targets multiple enemies and is Reliable.  Wait to find the first "broken" power in the book, at least until this is errata'd or clarified in some way.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: cru on June 03, 2008, 11:59:10 AM
Q15 why is 13 con important?
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: heffroncm on June 03, 2008, 03:42:54 PM
Q15 why is 13 con important?

Opportunity cost.  It's only going to cost you 3 points on point buy, where 14 costs 5.  Con is still important, it increases your starting HP which in turn increases the amount healed by your surges.  You can also devote 1 point to it at 4 and end the game with a 16 con.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: DaveTheMagicWeasel on June 05, 2008, 12:22:42 AM
Not so much optimization, but it is simple...

Q16: How long does KotS take to run?  E.g. can I get my group through it in a single day session one weekend, or is it a longer adventure?
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Ed-Zero on June 05, 2008, 04:20:56 AM
Q17: Exactly how many orbs can I have in my possession? (This answer directly affects Q18)
Q18: Are orbs wielded in your hands? (If so, then can you wield 2? If not, then can I have 40 of them hanging from my belt?)

*Note: The wizards flavor text says "runed implements of your craft hang from your belt". As we all know, orbs are considered implements.

*Note #2: The feat "Second Implement [Wizard]" implies that you gain another feature of being able to use a implement, the feat does not increase the amount of implements you may have.

*Note #3: The only thing I found that might counter having more than 2 orbs or really any implements is the "bonuses of the same type don't stack".. Although that doesn't really stop having 2 different orbs or having the orbs be a different level of enhancement.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: jameswilliamogle on June 05, 2008, 04:42:12 AM
Q19: Does the proficiency bonus to attack apply to a power which requires the weapon?
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: heffroncm on June 05, 2008, 06:48:27 AM
A17) As many as you can find / afford / carry

A18) Yes.  You could wield 2, though you could only apply the effects of one at a time.  You can bring as many as you like to a fight, but again can only apply the effects of one at a time.

Implements are a Caster's weapon.  You can carry different implements for different occaisions.  There's nothing stopping a level 1 Wizard from having and using a Staff, Orb, and Wand.  The Arcane Implement Mastery class feature is different, and Second Implement allows you to pick a second Implement Mastery.

A19) Yes.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: brislove on June 05, 2008, 08:08:58 PM
a:16 I think it's about 12-16 hours of game-time. I have gotten through the first part of the keep in about 7 hours of play. they were RP lite session, as most people just wanted to test out the new rules for combat. So depending on how long your sessions are...but I think a weekend of devoted gaming should get through it without much difficulty.

Also you can skip entire parts of the adventure (such as the kobold lair and/or the burial site) which would significantly reduce the time taken.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Ed-Zero on June 05, 2008, 09:27:50 PM
A18) Yes.  You could wield 2, though you could only apply the effects of one at a time.  You can bring as many as you like to a fight, but again can only apply the effects of one at a time.

Implements are a Caster's weapon.  You can carry different implements for different occaisions.  There's nothing stopping a level 1 Wizard from having and using a Staff, Orb, and Wand.  The Arcane Implement Mastery class feature is different, and Second Implement allows you to pick a second Implement Mastery.

A19) Yes.
Can you tell me where you're getting the information that I can wield 2 at? (page #, etc) I looked over the PHB and the DMG and haven't found anywhere that has talked about how many orbs I can use (not just hold, but actually have the damage/crit from different orbs stack) at one time.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Eepop on June 05, 2008, 11:06:44 PM
Q20) Does wielding a weapon in your off hand effect your ability to use bracers or a shield? 

It seems like balance wise it should, but I'm having trouble finding confirmation that an offhand weapon takes up that magic item slot.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: heffroncm on June 05, 2008, 11:36:23 PM
Can you tell me where you're getting the information that I can wield 2 at? (page #, etc) I looked over the PHB and the DMG and haven't found anywhere that has talked about how many orbs I can use (not just hold, but actually have the damage/crit from different orbs stack) at one time.

I never said you could get the extra damage or crit from both.  You can have two in your hands ready to use (definition of Wield) at any time, but you can only apply the effects of one to any particular spell.  This is the same as with weapons: anyone can Wield a Light Weapon in addition to a One Handed Weapon, they just gain absolutely no benefit for doing so other than having two weapons to pick from on each attack unless they have specific feats or class features that say otherwise.

Q20) Does wielding a weapon in your off hand effect your ability to use bracers or a shield? 

It seems like balance wise it should, but I'm having trouble finding confirmation that an offhand weapon takes up that magic item slot.

a20) Page 224 PHB.

"Soemtimes there are physical limitations as well - you cannot wear two helm."  The previous few lines talk about how you can wear Bracers and hold a Shield at the same time, though only one takes effect at a time.  From these, it's easy to extrapolate that you can't hold a Weapon and a Shield in the same hand, but there is nothing stopping you from wearing Bracers and using an off-hand weapon (as it is NOT an Arm slot item).

I'll see if I can find omre corraboration.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Ed-Zero on June 06, 2008, 12:22:51 AM
Quote
I never said you could get the extra damage or crit from both.  You can have two in your hands ready to use (definition of Wield) at any time, but you can only apply the effects of one to any particular spell.  This is the same as with weapons: anyone can Wield a Light Weapon in addition to a One Handed Weapon, they just gain absolutely no benefit for doing so other than having two weapons to pick from on each attack unless they have specific feats or class features that say otherwise.
*Sigh...* You obviously didn't answer my question. From what it looks like, you're quoting RAI (Rules As Interpreted) as opposed to RAW (Rules as Written). So once again, I ask if you can please site where you are getting this information from? If you can't then you aren't really answering my question.

Implements as far as I have read are not comparable to weapons (except staffs which can be used as weapons and in that case you can only hold one in each hand). You cast your magic through the item but does having more than one amplify the damage?
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Tshern on June 06, 2008, 12:37:50 AM
RAI=Rules As Intended, right? Not Rules As Interpreted.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: heffroncm on June 06, 2008, 12:39:03 AM
Quote
I never said you could get the extra damage or crit from both.  You can have two in your hands ready to use (definition of Wield) at any time, but you can only apply the effects of one to any particular spell.  This is the same as with weapons: anyone can Wield a Light Weapon in addition to a One Handed Weapon, they just gain absolutely no benefit for doing so other than having two weapons to pick from on each attack unless they have specific feats or class features that say otherwise.
*Sigh...* You obviously didn't answer my question. From what it looks like, you're quoting RAI (Rules As Interpreted) as opposed to RAW (Rules as Written). So once again, I ask if you can please site where you are getting this information from? If you can't then you aren't really answering my question.

Implements as far as I have read are not comparable to weapons (except staffs which can be used as weapons and in that case you can only hold one in each hand). You cast your magic through the item but does having more than one amplify the damage?

Your original question asked if you could wield two implements.  You later clarified that you wanted to apply the enhancement bonuses of two implements to a single use of a power, which is a completely different issue.  I answered.  You are allowed to use AN implement to apply AN enhancement bonus to a power with the Implement keyword.  Even if multiple Implements applied their Enhancement bonus at the same time, you can only have ONE bonus of a particular type, so the highest would apply.  To apply the effects of any Implement, you have to channel the power through the Implement.

I can't quote you a lack of information.  The base rules allow for a single Implement with a single power.  It would need to be spelled out that you COULD use two Implements on the same spell to counteract the basic rules text.  Implements are exactly anagolous of weapons, and are compared to such multiple times in the PHB.  I'm not quoting RAI, I'm quoting RAW.  If you don't have the RAW, then maybe wait before drawing conclusions?
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Ed-Zero on June 06, 2008, 12:57:58 AM
Quote
Your original question asked if you could wield two implements.  You later clarified that you wanted to apply the enhancement bonuses of two implements to a single use of a power, which is a completely different issue.  I answered.  You are allowed to use AN implement to apply AN enhancement bonus to a power with the Implement keyword.  Even if multiple Implements applied their Enhancement bonus at the same time, you can only have ONE bonus of a particular type, so the highest would apply.  To apply the effects of any Implement, you have to channel the power through the Implement.

I can't quote you a lack of information.  The base rules allow for a single Implement with a single power.  It would need to be spelled out that you COULD use two Implements on the same spell to counteract the basic rules text.  Implements are exactly anagolous of weapons, and are compared to such multiple times in the PHB.  I'm not quoting RAI, I'm quoting RAW.  If you don't have the RAW, then maybe wait before drawing conclusions?
My second question that I posted was this:
Q18: Are orbs wielded in your hands? (If so, then can you wield 2? If not, then can I have 40 of them hanging from my belt?).
You give me this:
A18) Yes.  You could wield 2, though you could only apply the effects of one at a time.  You can bring as many as you like to a fight, but again can only apply the effects of one at a time.

You saying that caused me to ask where you got it. You still have not said what page you are getting this information from. You say it's RAW yet you don't back it up. If the rules say that you can only wield 2 yet somehow their bonuses don't stack then please please please tell me what page of what book you are getting this information. Saying "it's RAW" doesn't mean anything unless you can tell me that.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: heffroncm on June 06, 2008, 01:19:56 AM
You saying that caused me to ask where you got it. You still have not said what page you are getting this information from. You say it's RAW yet you don't back it up. If the rules say that you can only wield 2 yet somehow their bonuses don't stack then please please please tell me what page of what book you are getting this information. Saying "it's RAW" doesn't mean anything unless you can tell me that.

The rules make no mention of wether or not you can wield two.  Pages 236 through 242 make clear that you can apply the effects of only one implement for each activationg of a power.  They also make clear that Orbs, Rods, Staffs, and Wands can A) be used one-handed and B) there is no restriction on wielding multiples.  You're not going to get the effects of multiples on a single power, but you can wield two and choose which to apply each time.  You must have one of these implements in hand to use it's effects, thereby placing a physical limit on the number you can wield at a time.

How am I supposed to back this up?  There is no direct quote that says, "You can wield two Orbs at a time, but may only apply the abilities of one at a time."  This is information that has to be gleaned from multiple locations, those being chapter four and chapter seven, in the various descriptions of powers, implements, and magic items.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: DaveTheMagicWeasel on June 06, 2008, 01:22:58 AM
a:16 I think it's about 12-16 hours of game-time. I have gotten through the first part of the keep in about 7 hours of play. they were RP lite session, as most people just wanted to test out the new rules for combat. So depending on how long your sessions are...but I think a weekend of devoted gaming should get through it without much difficulty.

Also you can skip entire parts of the adventure (such as the kobold lair and/or the burial site) which would significantly reduce the time taken.

Hmmm... as written too long for one of our sessions me thinks - we need chat, booze and pizza time!

I was thinking of inviting my old uni group up to my home town for a one-off 4e trial, so wouldn't want to have to stop halfway through, but if a lot of it is superfluous it may yet be possible... :D

Cheers
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: brislove on June 06, 2008, 01:38:02 AM
I would just ignore the keep, and deal with the kobold lair if you were to run a one-shot adventure. it should be good for about 4-5 hours of play :)
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Dan2 on June 06, 2008, 02:09:07 AM
It's too bad WotC didn't do a better job proofreading their products...

Q19: I notice that Cloudkill does not have an attack line.  I assume that it is supposed to be Intelligence vs Fortitude (like Stinking Cloud)?  As a combo with this question: why does Cloudkill suck so much?

Q20: How does Resounding Thunder affect the Stormspell Mage's Storm Cage?  Storm Cage specifically says that, "You conjure a wall in the 16 outer squares of the burst (forming a square enclosure)."  Would this upgrade to 25 squares?  would it stay 16 with the 4d6 damage from the attack affecting the outer 25 squares?  Does it not work?  ???

Q21: Why in the hell would WotC make Thunderclap (Wiz Encounter 23) a crappy version of Ice Tomb (Wiz Encounter 17)?  Is it because no other attack can affect it during that stunned period?  Does anyone else think that's retarded?  :wall :fu
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Runestar on June 06, 2008, 02:20:22 AM
Quote
Q19: I notice that Cloudkill does not have an attack line.  I assume that it is supposed to be Intelligence vs Fortitude (like Stinking Cloud)?  As a combo with this question: why does Cloudkill suck so much?

Apparently, the only advantage it has over stinking cloud is its larger area (11x11 squares compared to stinking cloud's 5x5 squares), which is almost 5 times as big. So you will likely be able to catch all the enemies in it, including minions. Seems like wotc places a very huge premium on the area of effect... ???

Quote
Q21: Why in the hell would WotC make Thunderclap (Wiz Encounter 23) a crappy version of Ice Tomb (Wiz Encounter 17)?  Is it because no other attack can affect it during that stunned period?  Does anyone else think that's retarded?   

That seems about it. You can still attack an enemy stunned by thunderclap but not ice tomb. So it is somewhat better, but I am not sure if this is worth the disparity in lvs though. Heck, ice tomb even deals more damage!
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: heffroncm on June 06, 2008, 02:21:41 AM
These would be 21, 22, and 23.  Updating the qutoes.

It's too bad WotC didn't do a better job proofreading their products...

Q21: I notice that Cloudkill does not have an attack line.  I assume that it is supposed to be Intelligence vs Fortitude (like Stinking Cloud)?  As a combo with this question: why does Cloudkill suck so much?
A21:There's no Attack line in Cloudkill because there is no Attack.  Referance page 57 PHB: "Most attack powers that deal damage recquire an attack roll." Not all.  Anyone in the Zone is automatically hit.  Cloudkill is great because it is automatic damage over a large area which sticks around for the entire fight and can be moved.

Q20: How does Resounding Thunder affect the Stormspell Mage's Storm Cage?  Storm Cage specifically says that, "You conjure a wall in the 16 outer squares of the burst (forming a square enclosure)."  Would this upgrade to 25 squares?  would it stay 16 with the 4d6 damage from the attack affecting the outer 25 squares?  Does it not work?  ???

A22: By RAW, it conflicts itself.  It both needs to be 16 outer squares, and form a square enclosure.  IMO, the square enclosure would override the number of squares, bringing it up to 25 squares.  Check with your DM, and expect it to get FAQ'd real soon.

Q21: Why in the hell would WotC make Thunderclap (Wiz Encounter 23) a crappy version of Ice Tomb (Wiz Encounter 17)?  Is it because no other attack can affect it during that stunned period?  Does anyone else think that's retarded?  :wall :fu

A23: This is a matter of opinion.  The only differances between the two powers are 6 average damage and the ability to effect the target.  I believe that Thunderclap is a much more useful ability in encounters with Elites or a Solo.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Dan2 on June 06, 2008, 02:34:09 AM
Referencing Cloudkill:
That's the case with a lot of other powers too, but they don't also have a "Hit:" line in their descriptions.  They just have an "Effect:" line.
I'm pretty sure that a "Hit" can only come into effect after an attack...
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: heffroncm on June 06, 2008, 02:38:03 AM
Referencing Cloudkill:
That's the case with a lot of other powers too, but they don't also have a "Hit:" line in their descriptions.  They just have an "Effect:" line.
I'm pretty sure that a "Hit" can only come into effect after an attack...

Yup, the very existance of a "Hit" line demands an "Attack" line.  So, either there should be an Attack, or the Hit line is in error.  Either way, Cloudkill does guarunteed damage over an abdsurb area.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: brislove on June 06, 2008, 10:58:03 AM
ya cloudkill should be rolling to do damage immediately, and then doing ongoing damage. I don't believe it freely does the damage when you cast it with no attack roll or anything
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Mister D on June 06, 2008, 05:51:29 PM
I already posted this question in the 4e forum.

I need a clarification on Wizards preparing spells. It seems to me that people read it to work on a one spell per level prepared. I see no line in the spellbook entry that states that. The other classes get one daily each time so it's not a problem for them. They get the dailies they know and each one they can use once per day. Wizard on the other hand get more choices. But why should they only be able to prepare one daily per level known? For example, if you choose two level 1 dailies at 5th level (for whatever reason. you can choose lower level power if you want.) you would have 4 dailies known and 2 dailies per day, which obviuosly would be 1st level. Why should you be forced to prepare one 1st and one 5th? The only power-per-day table I've seen is the generic one, and doesn't state any "level slot" for daily powers.
So, did I miss something?
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: brislove on June 06, 2008, 07:40:10 PM
Q24: Can you trade out paragon path powers when you attain higher level powers?

here's the quote from the rules pg 27.

Quote
Encounter attack powers: at 13th, 17th, 23rd and 27th levels you can replace any encounter attack power from your class with one of your new level (or an encounter attack power of a lower level if you choose)

The question is more accurately does your paragon path count as a power from your class? logically you should be able to trade it up, since you have 4 encounter powers that are higher level then your paragon power, but RAW I'm not so certain.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Kuroimaken on June 07, 2008, 08:18:49 AM
Q25: Can you pick up powers from another class if you have the appropriate multiclass feat without using the power-swap feats? As an example: I'm a Warlock with the Wizard multiclass feat at level 1. I level up, thus I can select one more power known. Do I get to pick from the Wizard list? I know this probably sounds stupid, but I can't find clarification in the book.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: brislove on June 07, 2008, 08:25:32 AM
Q25: Can you pick up powers from another class if you have the appropriate multiclass feat without using the power-swap feats? As an example: I'm a Warlock with the Wizard multiclass feat at level 1. I level up, thus I can select one more power known. Do I get to pick from the Wizard list? I know this probably sounds stupid, but I can't find clarification in the book.

no. The multi-class feat tells you exactly what it gives you. leveling up tells you that you take powers from your class. Multi-class feats do not make that class your class. they allow you to meet prerequisites of paragon paths as if you were a member of that class.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: AlienFromBeyond on June 07, 2008, 09:04:10 AM
Q24: Can you trade out paragon path powers when you attain higher level powers?

here's the quote from the rules pg 27.

Quote
Encounter attack powers: at 13th, 17th, 23rd and 27th levels you can replace any encounter attack power from your class with one of your new level (or an encounter attack power of a lower level if you choose)

The question is more accurately does your paragon path count as a power from your class? logically you should be able to trade it up, since you have 4 encounter powers that are higher level then your paragon power, but RAW I'm not so certain.
Paragon path powers are not from your class, they are, by definition, from your Paragon path.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Dan2 on June 09, 2008, 03:45:44 AM
Q26: From Orb Mastery:
Quote
...that has an effect that lasts until the subject succeeds on a saving throw.  That creature takes a penalty to its saving throws against that effect equal to your Wisdom modifier.
  Emphasis mine.

I just want to clarify, but "that effect" is the effect that you are trying to save against yes?  The effect that has a save?

Note the text of the Sleep spell:
Quote
The target is slowed (save ends). If the target fails its first saving throw against this power, the target becomes unconscious (save ends).

It does not say that the slow effect ends when the unconscious effect starts.  They do not replace each other.

Doesn't this mean that in order to "force" a long-term unconsciousness with the Sleep spell, that you'd have to save your Orb use until they fail the first save against the slow effect?
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Banor on June 09, 2008, 05:07:12 AM
Q27: Does a Warlord add his weapon proficiency bonus when using Furious Smash ? The skill does have the "Weapon" descriptor but doesn't deal [W].
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: AlienFromBeyond on June 09, 2008, 06:33:18 AM
Q27: Does a Warlord add his weapon proficiency bonus when using Furious Smash ? The skill does have the "Weapon" descriptor but doesn't deal [W].
Since weapon proficiency is only a bonus to hit, yes you do get the bonus when using Furious Smash.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Bozwevial on June 09, 2008, 03:16:20 PM
Q28: The doomsayer paragon path specifies that enemies within 10 squares of you roll twice for saving throws against fear effects and take the lower of the two rolls. Since I've only found one fear effect that gives a save in all the warlock powers, doesn't this mean that without multiclassing or another party member using the fear effect in question, this ability is rather pointless?
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: heffroncm on June 09, 2008, 03:40:31 PM
Q28: The doomsayer paragon path specifies that enemies within 10 squares of you roll twice for saving throws against fear effects and take the lower of the two rolls. Since I've only found one fear effect that gives a save in all the warlock powers, doesn't this mean that without multiclassing or another party member using the fear effect in question, this ability is rather pointless?

Depends on your definition of pointless.  This is a really subjective question that can't be answered from a pure rules standpoint.  The ability may have been toned down to account for other powerful abilities in the Paragon Path, the ability may have great uses down the road when the Arcane book hits that we don't know about yet, the ability may have been created entirely with teamwork in mind.  None of these make it a pointless ability, but they do make it provide less personal power right now.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: pfooti on June 09, 2008, 03:49:08 PM
Q29: Really simple question, but I'm not entire clear on it. A Paragon Path provides certain powers to a character, usually at 11, 12 and 20 it seems. PCs also get new powers in the appropriate categories at those levels, but no classes actually provide them. That is, there are no Cleric-12 utility powers, despite the fact that PCs get a utility power at 12. This indicates that you gain the Paragon Path powers from your paragon path at the appropriate level, and there's no choice (except which paragon path you take) about your level 11, 12, and 20 powers. Is this a correct interpretation?
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: heffroncm on June 09, 2008, 04:02:14 PM
Q29: Really simple question, but I'm not entire clear on it. A Paragon Path provides certain powers to a character, usually at 11, 12 and 20 it seems. PCs also get new powers in the appropriate categories at those levels, but no classes actually provide them. That is, there are no Cleric-12 utility powers, despite the fact that PCs get a utility power at 12. This indicates that you gain the Paragon Path powers from your paragon path at the appropriate level, and there's no choice (except which paragon path you take) about your level 11, 12, and 20 powers. Is this a correct interpretation?

The chart on Page 29 specifies that you gain Paragon Path powers at these levels.  The power is decided by your paragon path, be it a standard path or Paragon multiclassing in which you have a power choice.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Dan2 on June 10, 2008, 03:12:07 AM
Q30: Exactly how does the Archmage's level 30 ability work?

Do you replace an encounter spell?  Do you have to prepare the encounter spell as a daily spell?  What of the other daily spell for that slot?

???

Also, no one's tackled Q26 yet...  :(
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: heffroncm on June 10, 2008, 05:25:55 AM
Q30: Exactly how does the Archmage's level 30 ability work?

Do you replace an encounter spell?  Do you have to prepare the encounter spell as a daily spell?  What of the other daily spell for that slot?

???

Also, no one's tackled Q26 yet...  :(

A30: One daily spell you KNOW becomes an Encounter spell.  You never get the opportunity to change this spell.  You must still prepare it normally from my reading, you just get the ability to cast it differently.  You do not have to prepare it every day.

It seems an equally valid interpretation would be that the spell becomes an 'extra' Encounter power, and does not take up a Daily slot at all.

A26: I'd love to help, but the more I research it the more the book contradicts itself.  In some areas, the book referances a Save against a Power.  In others, it referances Saves against an Effect.  The only time I can find that it referances multiple Effects from one Power is in the case of Aftereffects, which Sleep is the inverse of.  I'm really not sure how to handle this one, seems to be a unique case that isn't directly covered. 

Personally, I'd rule that you are no longer Slowed after the first Save wether you succede or fail.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Dan2 on June 10, 2008, 05:44:24 PM
pg 279 seems to indicate you need to save against both...  I had forgotten about it while trotting this out over at the WotC boards...

props to limsup for reminding me!!! :clap
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: ShaggyShaggs on June 10, 2008, 11:04:22 PM
Q31: Am I correct in thinking that the Swordmaster Attack 20 Daily power Crescendo Sword could be used as an At Will power (recovering itself) as long as you don't miss with it?
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: heffroncm on June 10, 2008, 11:09:01 PM
Q31: Am I correct in thinking that the Swordmaster Attack 20 Daily power Crescendo Sword could be used as an At Will power (recovering itself) as long as you don't miss with it?

Would depend on the timing of when a power is considered 'used.'  A question which is not clarified in the rules.  I'll put in a quick note to CustServ.

*EDIT*  From CustServ:

Quote from: WotC Customer Service
You asked the following question:

1. Can this effect be used to recover Crescendo Sword?

Notice that Crescendo Sword says "a daily power you have already used". Since you are currently USING Crescendo Sword to attack, you have not "already used" it, and thus you cannot recover it!

Please let me know if you need anymore help!

That was my thought, but here is some quasi-official backup.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Runestar on June 11, 2008, 03:21:34 AM
So cust serv knows how to play with the english language and make the distinction between "used" and "using". :o

That is quite a far cry from the cust serv of yesteryear... :P
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: AlterFrom on June 11, 2008, 03:24:54 AM
Why do they feel the need to use exclamation points all the time?  :mad

It's rather annoying, IMO.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: ShaggyShaggs on June 11, 2008, 03:30:44 AM
So cust serv knows how to play with the english language and make the distinction between "used" and "using". :o

That is quite a far cry from the cust serv of yesteryear... :P
Yeah, that's not what I wanted to hear from custserv, but it seems sane, and literate.  Though I, too, could do without the bang.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: munin on June 11, 2008, 03:34:46 AM
Keep in mind, though, that if any other power shows up with the same general wording ("recover a power that you have already used") you could cycle between that one and Crescendo Sword.

Given the history of WOTC and splatbooks, it's only a matter of time.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: munin on June 11, 2008, 03:47:12 AM
Actually, hold on, I just figured out how it could work.

The Epic Destiny, "Deadly Trickster", has the Epic Trick power that allows you to regain all daily powers except Epic Trick.

Thus, if you had the Epic Destiny "Deadly Trickster" and you had the Crescendo Sword power, you could conceivably spam it all day long:

Use Crescendo Sword first, then Epic Trick.  Since you've already used Crescendo Sword that day (despite having regained it) you could then get around that bit of language-lawyering and spam away.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Dan2 on June 11, 2008, 03:55:22 AM
A30: I know I'm the one who asked, but if anyone cares, I got an email response from custserv about it.

Quote
Customer (Daniel Thorpe)   06/10/2008 08:25 AM
How, exactly does the Archmage's level 30 ability work?

Do you gain a free encounter spell, or do you have to replace one.

Does it take up your daily spot as normal?

Can you prepare the other daily spell you have for that level?

I have a suspicion that all that changes is the word "Daily" on the spell, but I'd like confirmation

Quote
Response (Support Agent)   06/10/2008 04:12 PM
Daniel,

Thank you for writing. You do not lose an encounter power from your repertoire, you simply shift a daily power to an encounter power.

No, it does not take up a daily spot, and you can prepare your other daily spell as normal.

Good Gaming!

This makes the Archmage seem a whole lot better.  He has 5 Encounter Powers and 4 Daily Powers!  When you consider that he's probably going to have Legion's Hold as his 5th encounter power, I'd say this is almost as good as the Demigod.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: heffroncm on June 11, 2008, 04:52:01 AM
Great news there Dan2, thanks for the info.

Munin, good idea, and if you can find a DM to allow it I'll send you 5 bucks :-P  Seriously, this could have been easily handled with better wording.  Set Encounter and Daily powers up with 2 states, Ready and Expended, and the whole thing is taken care of.  That's the obvious enough intent, it just wasn't properly codified.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: ShaggyShaggs on June 11, 2008, 04:59:27 AM
Munin DMs, and I think he just about wet himself upon seeing the 4E goblin racial power, remembering my 3.5 goblin PC in his game. :smirk
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: munin on June 11, 2008, 05:06:26 AM
Great news there Dan2, thanks for the info.

Munin, good idea, and if you can find a DM to allow it I'll send you 5 bucks :-P  Seriously, this could have been easily handled with better wording.  Set Encounter and Daily powers up with 2 states, Ready and Expended, and the whole thing is taken care of.  That's the obvious enough intent, it just wasn't properly codified.

I'd allow it....

...but one of the features of my games is that reputations get around, so any villain worth his salt would know better than to let people get within melee range of that guy afterwards.  :)

Quote from: ShaggyShaggs
Munin DMs, and I think he just about wet himself upon seeing the 4E goblin racial power, remembering my 3.5 goblin PC in his game.

Not as much as you might think, given that the power only happens when someone misses on the bloody thing.  :-\

[EDIT:  Misses, not hits.  Misses, not hits.  No idea why I keep messing that up.]
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: munin on June 11, 2008, 06:01:25 AM
Q32

I'm building a party based on a specific small race which is listed in the MM as "You can use such-and-such as an at-will power"

My question:  Does this take the place of one of the normally-expected at-will powers from the character's class, or is this a power that you can use in addition to the normal quota of at-will powers?
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: MittenNinja on June 11, 2008, 06:09:03 AM
A32

No it does not. There is no set limitation on how many at-will powers you can know other than the fact that the classes give you access to two.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: munin on June 11, 2008, 06:13:31 AM
A32

No it does not. There is no set limitation on how many at-will powers you can know other than the fact that the classes give you access to two.

Aha, thank you!  I thought that it might work like that (else why bother playing one of the small races?) but wanted to be sure.  :clap
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Archmage Joda on June 11, 2008, 06:53:00 AM
Q33 I saw mention of a way for archmage to continuously refresh their daily powers. How does this work (full explanation please, I'm rather dim at this 4e stuff currently)?
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: AlienFromBeyond on June 11, 2008, 09:26:46 AM
Actually, hold on, I just figured out how it could work.

The Epic Destiny, "Deadly Trickster", has the Epic Trick power that allows you to regain all daily powers except Epic Trick.

Thus, if you had the Epic Destiny "Deadly Trickster" and you had the Crescendo Sword power, you could conceivably spam it all day long:

Use Crescendo Sword first, then Epic Trick.  Since you've already used Crescendo Sword that day (despite having regained it) you could then get around that bit of language-lawyering and spam away.
Epic Trick is not a Daily Power, it is a Utility Power that can be used daily. This is a distinction the game makes.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: munin on June 11, 2008, 09:33:42 AM
Actually, hold on, I just figured out how it could work.

The Epic Destiny, "Deadly Trickster", has the Epic Trick power that allows you to regain all daily powers except Epic Trick.

Thus, if you had the Epic Destiny "Deadly Trickster" and you had the Crescendo Sword power, you could conceivably spam it all day long:

Use Crescendo Sword first, then Epic Trick.  Since you've already used Crescendo Sword that day (despite having regained it) you could then get around that bit of language-lawyering and spam away.
Epic Trick is not a Daily Power, it is a Utility Power that can be used daily. This is a distinction the game makes.

Apologies for the summarization.  The text for Epic Tric specifies "...or recover all expended daily powers except this one."
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: heffroncm on June 11, 2008, 12:32:49 PM
Actually, hold on, I just figured out how it could work.

The Epic Destiny, "Deadly Trickster", has the Epic Trick power that allows you to regain all daily powers except Epic Trick.

Thus, if you had the Epic Destiny "Deadly Trickster" and you had the Crescendo Sword power, you could conceivably spam it all day long:

Use Crescendo Sword first, then Epic Trick.  Since you've already used Crescendo Sword that day (despite having regained it) you could then get around that bit of language-lawyering and spam away.
Epic Trick is not a Daily Power, it is a Utility Power that can be used daily. This is a distinction the game makes.

It's not an especially important disctinction, though.  There are two types of powers, Attack and Utility.  Of those types, there are three Availabilities, At Will, Encounter, and Daily.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: AlienFromBeyond on June 11, 2008, 11:03:38 PM
Actually, hold on, I just figured out how it could work.

The Epic Destiny, "Deadly Trickster", has the Epic Trick power that allows you to regain all daily powers except Epic Trick.

Thus, if you had the Epic Destiny "Deadly Trickster" and you had the Crescendo Sword power, you could conceivably spam it all day long:

Use Crescendo Sword first, then Epic Trick.  Since you've already used Crescendo Sword that day (despite having regained it) you could then get around that bit of language-lawyering and spam away.
Epic Trick is not a Daily Power, it is a Utility Power that can be used daily. This is a distinction the game makes.

It's not an especially important disctinction, though.  There are two types of powers, Attack and Utility.  Of those types, there are three Availabilities, At Will, Encounter, and Daily.
Hmm, a closer look at the power section at the beginning of the character classes section shows that you are right. I guess you can spam the two powers together in tandem, until you miss with Crescendo Sword anyways :P.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: heffroncm on June 12, 2008, 01:22:21 AM
Actually, hold on, I just figured out how it could work.

The Epic Destiny, "Deadly Trickster", has the Epic Trick power that allows you to regain all daily powers except Epic Trick.

Thus, if you had the Epic Destiny "Deadly Trickster" and you had the Crescendo Sword power, you could conceivably spam it all day long:

Use Crescendo Sword first, then Epic Trick.  Since you've already used Crescendo Sword that day (despite having regained it) you could then get around that bit of language-lawyering and spam away.
Epic Trick is not a Daily Power, it is a Utility Power that can be used daily. This is a distinction the game makes.

It's not an especially important disctinction, though.  There are two types of powers, Attack and Utility.  Of those types, there are three Availabilities, At Will, Encounter, and Daily.
Hmm, a closer look at the power section at the beginning of the character classes section shows that you are right. I guess you can spam the two powers together in tandem, until you miss with Crescendo Sword anyways :P.
Epic Trick cannot be recovered in any way other than an Extended Rest.  As I mentioned earlier in the thread, Wizards really needs to eratta the language to Readied and Expended to avoid these kinds of issues with powers that re-ready other powers.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: ShaggyShaggs on June 12, 2008, 01:27:12 AM
Actually, hold on, I just figured out how it could work.

The Epic Destiny, "Deadly Trickster", has the Epic Trick power that allows you to regain all daily powers except Epic Trick.

Thus, if you had the Epic Destiny "Deadly Trickster" and you had the Crescendo Sword power, you could conceivably spam it all day long:

Use Crescendo Sword first, then Epic Trick.  Since you've already used Crescendo Sword that day (despite having regained it) you could then get around that bit of language-lawyering and spam away.
Epic Trick is not a Daily Power, it is a Utility Power that can be used daily. This is a distinction the game makes.

It's not an especially important disctinction, though.  There are two types of powers, Attack and Utility.  Of those types, there are three Availabilities, At Will, Encounter, and Daily.
Hmm, a closer look at the power section at the beginning of the character classes section shows that you are right. I guess you can spam the two powers together in tandem, until you miss with Crescendo Sword anyways :P.
Epic Trick cannot be recovered in any way other than an Extended Rest.  As I mentioned earlier in the thread, Wizards really needs to eratta the language to Readied and Expended to avoid these kinds of issues with powers that re-ready other powers.
That's true, and it's for the best as far as avoiding breaking the game goes.  However, it does still enable Crescendo Sword spam, I think.

Round 1: Use Crescendo Sword
Round 2: Use Epic Trick; recover Crescendo Sword (and all other daily powers except this one)
Round 3: Use Crescendo Sword; check if you already used Crescendo Sword (Yes, on Round 1); recover Crescendo Sword
Round 4: Use Crescendo Sword; check if you already used Crescendo Sword (Yes, on Rounds 1 and 3); recover Crescendo Sword
Etc...
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: heffroncm on June 12, 2008, 01:30:58 AM
Yeah, I sent a reply to the CustServ e-mail with the Epic Trick abuse by their wording.  Let's see how creative they can get now.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: munin on June 12, 2008, 02:00:31 AM
Yeah, I sent a reply to the CustServ e-mail with the Epic Trick abuse by their wording.  Let's see how creative they can get now.

They'll probably say that they'll address it in the errata, and to be sure to buy their D&D Insider! to be sure to get the update.

Either that, or they've managed to put Essence of Politician in potion form.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: heffroncm on June 12, 2008, 02:10:21 AM
They'll probably say that they'll address it in the errata, and to be sure to buy their D&D Insider! to be sure to get the update.

Either that, or they've managed to put Essence of Politician in potion form.

Um.  I've received a plethroa of completely free rules clarifications from CustServ, and not once have they mentioned DDI.  The two are seperate parts of the company, and to accuse CustServ of such actions given the amount of effort and help they've put forth in the past 5 days since the books hit the shelves is rather ignoble of you.

In any case, the subject has gone far beyond the scope of this thread.  If you folks would care to discuss Blade Crescendo further, let's move it to a new thread.

Anyone have any more questions?
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Archmage Joda on June 12, 2008, 02:29:11 AM
Q33 I saw mention of a way for archmage to continuously refresh their daily powers. How does this work (full explanation please, I'm rather dim at this 4e stuff currently)?
How about this one?
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: heffroncm on June 12, 2008, 03:17:39 AM
Q33 I saw mention of a way for archmage to continuously refresh their daily powers. How does this work (full explanation please, I'm rather dim at this 4e stuff currently)?
How about this one?

I don't think there is a way to make it continuous, but Archmage has many recycling powers available:
1 Daily spell becomes an Encounter spell.  This is a 5th Encounter spell AND doesn't use a Daily slot, giving you more Attack powers than anyone else, and the ability to use one of your Dailies every fight.

1 Daily spell every day can be prepared with 2 uses, giving you an extra Daily spell.

Every day, you can refresh one Daily spell that has been used.

These give an Archmage effective unlimited Daily attacks.  Not only do you get 6 Dailies, 2 more than most others, but you also get that one Daily turned into an Encounter spell.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: DemonLord57 on June 13, 2008, 01:06:30 AM
Q33 I saw mention of a way for archmage to continuously refresh their daily powers. How does this work (full explanation please, I'm rather dim at this 4e stuff currently)?
How about this one?

You're talking about a trick that has been shown to not actually work. The idea was that you would use Archspell (the 30th level Archmage feature) to turn Shape Magic (the 26th level Archmage utility power) into an encounter power. This would allow you to recover one daily spell for every short rest, meaning you just have to wait 30 minutes after battle before you're fully ready to go again, with all dailies and Shape Magic recovered (assuming you used all your dailies and Shape Magic). This doesn't work, though, because Shape Magic is not an "arcane power". It does not have the arcane keyword, which is what makes something an arcane power. There was a thread about this somewhere.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: DemonLord57 on June 13, 2008, 01:27:06 AM
Q34 This is a somewhat complicated question (I think it is, anyway.) Okay, so the rules for opportunity attacks state in multiple different places how things provoke opportunity attacks, but it doesn't impose some sort of limit on range or anything. What I want to know is: If I have something that makes an opponent forcibly provoke an OA, then can someone take the opportunity attack at range? For example, if an ally is wielding a glaive, or some other reach weapon, and a warlord uses viper's strike on the ally (causes them to provoke from an ally of choice if shifting), then can he hit the opponent with the OA, or does it only work when adjacent?
      All of the examples I found talked about being adjacent, and there is an ability called "threatening reach", which allows the creature to "make opportunity attacks against any opponents within its reach," which seems to imply that normally you can't. However, the feat Polearm Gamble allows you to make an opportunity attack against a creature who "enters a square adjacent to you", which would mean that you hit them with the OA when they are not adjacent to you, since it interrupts their action. The feat doesn't mention anything indicating this is different from the norm, however.

Q35 On the daily warlord attack power Break The Tempo, there is a sustain minor effect. It says, "The effect continues until your next turn." Is this just a normal sustain effect, or is it implying that it can only be done once? Most of the time they indicate that you can do it indefinitely by saying something like "the effect continues" or "the zone persists". Also, what do you think about using sustain effects on the turn they are cast? Some particularly.... perplexing examples of sustain effects would be Warlock 5 dailies "Crown of Madness" and "Curse of the Bloody Fangs". They each have a sustain minor condition that has (save ends). Does this mean that you can impose this effect each turn? Does this mean that you can impose this only once, but need to keep sustaining for it to continue, but they can save to end it anyway? Do you have to sustain on the turn you cast them, or do you have to wait until the turn after? Can you do either?
   
Q36 About delaying, and using it beneficially: it says that "beneficial" effects end when you delay, but "negative ones do not. How are you to go about determining this? With most, it's pretty obvious, but sometimes it's not. Also, it allows abuse either way. For example, Ice Tomb, the Wizard 17 encounter power. It says that they are entombed until "the end of your next turn". If you delay, this either means 1) you are keeping them there, or 2) you now have the opportunity to attack them, since they are no longer entombed. Either way, delaying gives you an advantage (though the first is more abusable) Another example would be the Warlock 16 utility power, Cloak of Shadow, which, until the end of your next turn turns you insubstantial but does not allow you to attack, use powers, or affect others. So, we have a similar situation as above, by delaying, we can either remain insubstantial, or lose the negative effect. How do you think these should be ruled?
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: munin on June 13, 2008, 03:08:47 AM
A35b

I think that 'save ends' in that case means that you can sustain the effect until the target makes their save.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: AlienFromBeyond on June 13, 2008, 03:20:33 AM
Q34 This is a somewhat complicated question (I think it is, anyway.) Okay, so the rules for opportunity attacks state in multiple different places how things provoke opportunity attacks, but it doesn't impose some sort of limit on range or anything. What I want to know is: If I have something that makes an opponent forcibly provoke an OA, then can someone take the opportunity attack at range? For example, if an ally is wielding a glaive, or some other reach weapon, and a warlord uses viper's strike on the ally (causes them to provoke from an ally of choice if shifting), then can he hit the opponent with the OA, or does it only work when adjacent?
      All of the examples I found talked about being adjacent, and there is an ability called "threatening reach", which allows the creature to "make opportunity attacks against any opponents within its reach," which seems to imply that normally you can't. However, the feat Polearm Gamble allows you to make an opportunity attack against a creature who "enters a square adjacent to you", which would mean that you hit them with the OA when they are not adjacent to you, since it interrupts their action. The feat doesn't mention anything indicating this is different from the norm, however.
By default you only threaten squares adjacent to you. Polearm Gamble is a special case, as it lets you get an OA when you normally wouldn't. In addition, by the time you take the OA granted from it, the opponent has already entered a square adjacent to you, and thus no rules about only threatening adjacent targets is broken.

Okay, this next question is actually a ton of separate questions, so I'll try to do each individually. It helps if you split these up you know, they're supposed to be simple questions :P.
Q35 On the daily warlord attack power Break The Tempo, there is a sustain minor effect. It says, "The effect continues until your next turn." Is this just a normal sustain effect, or is it implying that it can only be done once?
It's a normal sustain effect, they just worded it a bit oddly this time for some reason.
Also, what do you think about using sustain effects on the turn they are cast?
Considering page 278 says you sustain on the turn after you use the power, I think it would be cheating :P.
Some particularly.... perplexing examples of sustain effects would be Warlock 5 dailies "Crown of Madness" and "Curse of the Bloody Fangs". They each have a sustain minor condition that has (save ends). Does this mean that you can impose this effect each turn? Does this mean that you can impose this only once, but need to keep sustaining for it to continue, but they can save to end it anyway? Do you have to sustain on the turn you cast them, or do you have to wait until the turn after? Can you do either?
From my reading, Sustaining the power causes an effect, in the case of say Curse of the Blood Fangs, it's making the target and all adjacent targets take 1d10 damage ongoing that ends with a save, making multiple sustains very powerful over a period of time. But, I can also see that the intention might be that it is ongoing damage that you both need to sustain and that can be cut short if the save is made. Might want to ask CustServ about this one.
   
Q36 About delaying, and using it beneficially: it says that "beneficial" effects end when you delay, but "negative ones do not. How are you to go about determining this? With most, it's pretty obvious, but sometimes it's not. Also, it allows abuse either way. For example, Ice Tomb, the Wizard 17 encounter power. It says that they are entombed until "the end of your next turn". If you delay, this either means 1) you are keeping them there, or 2) you now have the opportunity to attack them, since they are no longer entombed. Either way, delaying gives you an advantage (though the first is more abusable) Another example would be the Warlock 16 utility power, Cloak of Shadow, which, until the end of your next turn turns you insubstantial but does not allow you to attack, use powers, or affect others. So, we have a similar situation as above, by delaying, we can either remain insubstantial, or lose the negative effect. How do you think these should be ruled?
Another question that can be easily answered. Page 288 clearly states what happens with things that end until your next when you delay. In this case, if they are beneficial to you or your allies, they end immediately.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: DemonLord57 on June 13, 2008, 05:05:21 AM
By default you only threaten squares adjacent to you. Polearm Gamble is a special case, as it lets you get an OA when you normally wouldn't. In addition, by the time you take the OA granted from it, the opponent has already entered a square adjacent to you, and thus no rules about only threatening adjacent targets is broken.
But an opportunity attack interrupts the action being taken, meaning that the moving next to you doesn't actually happen until after you're finished hitting them, meaning that if you are a fighter, you can stop them one space away from you. (At least that's how opportunity attacks normally work, and I don't see anything about the feat suggesting it works differently)
Quote
Okay, this next question is actually a ton of separate questions, so I'll try to do each individually. It helps if you split these up you know, they're supposed to be simple questions :P.
Oh... right... Ask a simple question oops, my bad, I guess I kind of got carried away.
Quote
Considering page 278 says you sustain on the turn after you use the power, I think it would be cheating .
Well, it actually says that "Starting on the turn after you create an effect, you sustain...", which tells you that that is how to sustain the effect, and it also says that you can sustain once per turn, but it never says you can't sustain before that. It simply tells you that you sustain (the effect) by taking the action, starting on the turn afterward (because the effect was going to last until that turn anyway). This may seem like a stupid way of looking at it, but it makes sense to me... 1) you're allowed to sustain once per turn, and 2) on the turn after the power is used, you sustain it by taking the action, but 3) you're not forbidden from sustaining on the turn you use the power, and some weird powers like the warlock ones seem to be strange to "sustain," since it doesn't "sustain" an effect, it creates a new one. Maybe my way of looking at it is completely wrong, though. I think it's worded badly, in any case.
Quote
Some particularly.... perplexing examples of sustain effects would be Warlock 5 dailies "Crown of Madness" and "Curse of the Bloody Fangs". They each have a sustain minor condition that has (save ends). Does this mean that you can impose this effect each turn? Does this mean that you can impose this only once, but need to keep sustaining for it to continue, but they can save to end it anyway? Do you have to sustain on the turn you cast them, or do you have to wait until the turn after? Can you do either?
From my reading, Sustaining the power causes an effect, in the case of say Curse of the Blood Fangs, it's making the target and all adjacent targets take 1d10 damage ongoing that ends with a save, making multiple sustains very powerful over a period of time. But, I can also see that the intention might be that it is ongoing damage that you both need to sustain and that can be cut short if the save is made. Might want to ask CustServ about this one.
First: How might I contact them?
Second: Ongoing damage of the same source (including untyped) does not stack, so this would just end up being around 7-10 ongoing damage until saving, at which point it starts again (or doesn't), which is still really nice, but not ridiculous. The rules are unclear about whether the lower damage stays around and needs to be saved against, but based on the inclusion of the text, "You make a separate saving throw against each damage type" in the "different damage types" section, I would say the implication is that the lower ongoing is absorbed into the larger one, making it one save at the higher one.
Third: I was also trying to use these as examples of the idea above of using the sustain power during the turn you use the power, and it being weird to be "sustaining" an effect when it doesn't exist yet.

Quote
   
Q36 About delaying, and using it beneficially: it says that "beneficial" effects end when you delay, but "negative ones do not. How are you to go about determining this? With most, it's pretty obvious, but sometimes it's not. Also, it allows abuse either way. For example, Ice Tomb, the Wizard 17 encounter power. It says that they are entombed until "the end of your next turn". If you delay, this either means 1) you are keeping them there, or 2) you now have the opportunity to attack them, since they are no longer entombed. Either way, delaying gives you an advantage (though the first is more abusable) Another example would be the Warlock 16 utility power, Cloak of Shadow, which, until the end of your next turn turns you insubstantial but does not allow you to attack, use powers, or affect others. So, we have a similar situation as above, by delaying, we can either remain insubstantial, or lose the negative effect. How do you think these should be ruled?
Another question that can be easily answered. Page 288 clearly states what happens with things that end until your next when you delay. In this case, if they are beneficial to you or your allies, they end immediately.
But I'm saying that these cannot be characterized as necessarily good or bad effects, sometimes you would prefer them to end and sometimes you wouldn't, depending on the situation, not the actual effect. Thus, how do we characterize the effect as either good or bad (and thus determine whether the effect ends due to delaying)? I for one would think that, if no better solution is available, erring on the side of it being "beneficial" is better, otherwise you can get abuses of effects like "entombed".

In any case, thank you for answering. I know I can sometimes ramble off and end up with mountains of text in my post, even if I don't mean to...
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: AlienFromBeyond on June 13, 2008, 08:32:24 AM
By default you only threaten squares adjacent to you. Polearm Gamble is a special case, as it lets you get an OA when you normally wouldn't. In addition, by the time you take the OA granted from it, the opponent has already entered a square adjacent to you, and thus no rules about only threatening adjacent targets is broken.
But an opportunity attack interrupts the action being taken, meaning that the moving next to you doesn't actually happen until after you're finished hitting them, meaning that if you are a fighter, you can stop them one space away from you. (At least that's how opportunity attacks normally work, and I don't see anything about the feat suggesting it works differently)
OAs do interrupt the action, and in this case the action is moving. After the attack, the guy you just hit could keep on moving.
Quote
Okay, this next question is actually a ton of separate questions, so I'll try to do each individually. It helps if you split these up you know, they're supposed to be simple questions :P.
Oh... right... Ask a simple question oops, my bad, I guess I kind of got carried away.
Haha, that's okay.
Quote
Considering page 278 says you sustain on the turn after you use the power, I think it would be cheating .
Well, it actually says that "Starting on the turn after you create an effect, you sustain...", which tells you that that is how to sustain the effect, and it also says that you can sustain once per turn, but it never says you can't sustain before that. It simply tells you that you sustain (the effect) by taking the action, starting on the turn afterward (because the effect was going to last until that turn anyway). This may seem like a stupid way of looking at it, but it makes sense to me... 1) you're allowed to sustain once per turn, and 2) on the turn after the power is used, you sustain it by taking the action, but 3) you're not forbidden from sustaining on the turn you use the power, and some weird powers like the warlock ones seem to be strange to "sustain," since it doesn't "sustain" an effect, it creates a new one. Maybe my way of looking at it is completely wrong, though. I think it's worded badly, in any case.
I'm not sure how you're getting you can sustain a power the same turn you use it. Since you sustain starting the turn after you use the power, you can't by definition sustain the turn you use the power. Just because the rules don't say you can't doesn't mean you can.
Quote
Some particularly.... perplexing examples of sustain effects would be Warlock 5 dailies "Crown of Madness" and "Curse of the Bloody Fangs". They each have a sustain minor condition that has (save ends). Does this mean that you can impose this effect each turn? Does this mean that you can impose this only once, but need to keep sustaining for it to continue, but they can save to end it anyway? Do you have to sustain on the turn you cast them, or do you have to wait until the turn after? Can you do either?
From my reading, Sustaining the power causes an effect, in the case of say Curse of the Blood Fangs, it's making the target and all adjacent targets take 1d10 damage ongoing that ends with a save, making multiple sustains very powerful over a period of time. But, I can also see that the intention might be that it is ongoing damage that you both need to sustain and that can be cut short if the save is made. Might want to ask CustServ about this one.
First: How might I contact them?
Here you go. (http://wizards.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wizards.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=489)
Quote
   
Q36 About delaying, and using it beneficially: it says that "beneficial" effects end when you delay, but "negative ones do not. How are you to go about determining this? With most, it's pretty obvious, but sometimes it's not. Also, it allows abuse either way. For example, Ice Tomb, the Wizard 17 encounter power. It says that they are entombed until "the end of your next turn". If you delay, this either means 1) you are keeping them there, or 2) you now have the opportunity to attack them, since they are no longer entombed. Either way, delaying gives you an advantage (though the first is more abusable) Another example would be the Warlock 16 utility power, Cloak of Shadow, which, until the end of your next turn turns you insubstantial but does not allow you to attack, use powers, or affect others. So, we have a similar situation as above, by delaying, we can either remain insubstantial, or lose the negative effect. How do you think these should be ruled?
Another question that can be easily answered. Page 288 clearly states what happens with things that end until your next when you delay. In this case, if they are beneficial to you or your allies, they end immediately.
But I'm saying that these cannot be characterized as necessarily good or bad effects, sometimes you would prefer them to end and sometimes you wouldn't, depending on the situation, not the actual effect. Thus, how do we characterize the effect as either good or bad (and thus determine whether the effect ends due to delaying)? I for one would think that, if no better solution is available, erring on the side of it being "beneficial" is better, otherwise you can get abuses of effects like "entombed".
Well, I'd say that delaying when you've entombed something would immediately break them free.
Quote from: PHB
For example if you stunned an enemy until the end of your next turn, the stunned condition ends.
Seems clear to me that the stun and the extra effect that tags along with it on Ice Tomb will end immediately if you Delay. Beneficial, in this case, is also anything that would be harmful to an enemy, and stun is definitely harmful (it is a condition after all).

Again, possibly a question you may want to ask CustServ. When in doubt, I would say err on the side of caution and say the effect is beneficial for you and thus ends right away if you delay.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Runestar on June 13, 2008, 01:50:17 PM
Q37) How do you rationalize a monster having a reflex save higher than his AC?

For example, the kobold slinger has an AC of 13 but a reflex save of 14. This means that it may be able to dodge a magic missile fired at it from a wizard (int vs reflex), but not a crossbow bolt (dex vs AC), assuming both end up with the same attack roll (or for simplicity's sake, the wizard has the same dex and int scores).

How would he be able to dodge the magic missile, but not the crossbow missile, seeing that they would both involve, well, dodging?
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: phelanarcetus on June 13, 2008, 04:50:52 PM
A37:  Racial bonuses to reflex, putting faith in armor for AC rather than in dodging?  Size bonus to reflex?  Mechanically, that's just how the monster tables put things for a monster of that role and that level.

Perhaps a magic missile needs to strike full on, but it's much more possible for a grazing crossbow bolt to do harm?  Whatever semantics suit the table.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: DemonLord57 on June 13, 2008, 05:49:35 PM
By default you only threaten squares adjacent to you. Polearm Gamble is a special case, as it lets you get an OA when you normally wouldn't. In addition, by the time you take the OA granted from it, the opponent has already entered a square adjacent to you, and thus no rules about only threatening adjacent targets is broken.
But an opportunity attack interrupts the action being taken, meaning that the moving next to you doesn't actually happen until after you're finished hitting them, meaning that if you are a fighter, you can stop them one space away from you. (At least that's how opportunity attacks normally work, and I don't see anything about the feat suggesting it works differently)
OAs do interrupt the action, and in this case the action is moving. After the attack, the guy you just hit could keep on moving.
[/quote]
Yeah, but my point is that they would *not* be adjacent to you, and in fact if you were a fighter, you could keep them one square away from you (given that combat superiority stops movement). This means that you *can* take an opportunity attack on someone who is not adjacent to you, which means that they don't necessarily inherently need adjacency. It could be that it's just this feat, but normally they provide reminder text to tell you that it's okay to break the general rule for the feat. They never say that you need to be adjacent to opportunity attack, it is merely implied. Yet, this implies the opposite...

thanks for answering my questions  :)
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: heffroncm on June 13, 2008, 05:56:23 PM
Well, let's look at some particulars from PHB 290:

1) An Opportunity Attack is a Melee Basic Attack
2) You can take an Opportunity Attack when the rules say you can
3) The rules for provoking Opportunity Attacks are all about being 'adjacent.'
4) The Able to Attack portion of Opportunity Attacks tells us that you CAN make an Opportunity Attack against any creature that you can see and can make a Melee Basic Attack against.

So, yes, if you are given the opportunity in any way and have a Reach weapon, you can make an OA against a creature 2 spaces away.  However, creatures only provoke OA's on their own if they are Adjacent to you, unless you have Threatening Reach.

Polearm Gamble only breaks the rule about what provokes an attack, and does not break the rules about what you can attack with an Opportunity Attack.

And, the spaces you "threaten" is a 3.x concept.  There is a small nod to it in the Threatening Reach ability, but that's all.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: DemonLord57 on June 13, 2008, 06:43:25 PM
Well, let's look at some particulars from PHB 290:

1) An Opportunity Attack is a Melee Basic Attack
2) You can take an Opportunity Attack when the rules say you can
3) The rules for provoking Opportunity Attacks are all about being 'adjacent.'
4) The Able to Attack portion of Opportunity Attacks tells us that you CAN make an Opportunity Attack against any creature that you can see and can make a Melee Basic Attack against.

So, yes, if you are given the opportunity in any way and have a Reach weapon, you can make an OA against a creature 2 spaces away.  However, creatures only provoke OA's on their own if they are Adjacent to you, unless you have Threatening Reach.

Polearm Gamble only breaks the rule about what provokes an attack, and does not break the rules about what you can attack with an Opportunity Attack.

And, the spaces you "threaten" is a 3.x concept.  There is a small nod to it in the Threatening Reach ability, but that's all.
Okay, that makes sense, I didn't really look at the Able to Attack portion too carefully, and reading that, it becomes clearer that  (it is at least strongly implied that) you *can* make an OA against anything that you can melee basic attack. Thanks.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Malric on June 14, 2008, 06:44:38 PM
Q38 Does fighter class feature combat superiority work when missing with reaping strike in OA (heavy blade optimization etc.) ?

Combat superiority:
"An enemy struck by your opportunity attack stops moving..."

Reaping strike:
"On miss half/full str dam."

Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: heffroncm on June 14, 2008, 08:50:58 PM
A39  Combat Superiority specificies that you have to hit the enemy, not just deal damage to them, to stop movement.

Quote from: PHB 76
An enemy struck by your Opportunity Attack stops moving, if a move provoked the attack.
Emphasis mine.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: McDungeon on June 16, 2008, 02:52:25 PM
Q40:  Symbols, do they take up a slot?  (seems like they're worn, but where?)
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: heffroncm on June 16, 2008, 03:14:14 PM
Q40:  Symbols, do they take up a slot?  (seems like they're worn, but where?)

A40: By RAW, no.  They can be worn anywhere on the body.  If they had to go into a slot, the book would say so.  An intentional advantage of Clerics and Paladins, as they have many, many powers that are Melee based along with their Implement powers.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: DrowVampyre on June 18, 2008, 10:42:17 AM
Sorry if this is really obvious - I'm still reading through the books and figuring out how things work, but I'm hoping someone that knows can help me out with a simple decision.

Q41: I'm going to be starting a game in the next day or two, but we'll be shorthanded, only myself and one, possibly two others. The one I know of will be going for a gish type thing, though i don't know his build. If we have a third, I have no idea what it'll be. So...given that, would a rogue or ranger be a better addition to the party? I'd be shooting for a melee focus either way, if that plays into things...
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Omen of Peace on June 21, 2008, 03:34:54 AM
A41 This is not really a simple question !
I think both can work: the Ranger is probably the best damage dealer, but the Rogue can inflict conditions.

--
Q42 Consider Winter's Wrath (Wizard Encounter 7, p163). Do people outside the area have concealment from people inside ? This used to be the case in 3.5 but the rules on concealment that I found don't explain it very well.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Runestar on June 22, 2008, 04:06:50 PM
Q43: What are the rules for aiming area-affecting powers in the air?

For example, a fireball is burst3. Can I aim it in the air to catch the dragon hovering above us? If so, what area does it fill - a 7x7x7 cube? Am I allowed to aim it slightly higher in the air to exclude my own party members? Say the dragonborn fighter is facing a large foe who is taller than him. Could I cast the fireball 2 squares above the ground to catch the upper half of the larger foe, while excluding the comparatively shorter PC? How would this work on close blast powers like burning hands?
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Omen of Peace on June 22, 2008, 04:49:59 PM
A42 I asked CustServ and they answered that, yes, the concealment goes both ways.

A43 I would say yes to all of the questions (that have yes as a possible answer !) but I could be too lenient. I haven't seen rules about it ; I was wondering about using Blasts while Levitating too.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: lotofsnow on June 28, 2008, 12:34:33 AM
Q44: Does the warlock's Eldritch Blast (which counts as a basic ranged attack) fulfill the requirement for the Ranger at-will exploit Twin Strike?
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Omen of Peace on June 28, 2008, 09:28:55 AM
A44 This has been debated on the WotC board, but I strongly believe the answer is "no".
Eldritch Blast counts as a basic ranged attack. Just because the usual basic ranged attack is a ranged weapon attack does not imply that Eldritch Blast suddenly becomes a ranged weapon attack...

Eldritch Blast is not a weapon - it can't replace a ranged weapon for the purpose of Twin Strike.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: tsuyoshikentsu on June 28, 2008, 10:16:18 AM
Keep in mind, though, that it DOES count for  lot of Warlord powers.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: AlterFrom on June 30, 2008, 12:02:16 AM
Q45 Do you add half your level to the ability modifier for damage rolls? ie, if you deal 1d8+STR damage at level 4 with a STR of 18, do you deal 1d8+4 or 1d8+6? I figure you do, since your "ability modifier" is calculated as minus 10, one-half, plus half level, but my group's disagreeing and I can't find a page reference.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Banor on June 30, 2008, 12:06:52 AM
A45 You are wrong, the ability modifier is (x-10)/2. Therefore no half level on damage. Rolls to hit do include half level as noted in page 274.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: X-Codes on June 30, 2008, 02:37:20 AM
Indeed, the number you are referencing is the modifier for an untrained skill check.  Your ability modifiers only go up when the ability scores themselves increase, not when your level increases.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Slate on July 17, 2008, 05:49:31 AM
Q46 I was just looking through the 4th ED Monster Manual and I noticed there are no Solo monsters of levels 1, 2, 5, 8, 14, and 21?    That seems, kind of, uh questionable?
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Banor on July 17, 2008, 08:18:40 AM
R46 : I you really need them, you can upgrade an Elite monster to solo status as per DMG.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: ImperiousLeader on July 18, 2008, 12:05:17 AM
I should point out that there aren't any low-level elites either, lowest is the lvl 3 ocher jelly. I wonder where we'll get additional templates, I really like the core ones, but would like some more. Will they be in DMG2, or will they move to the MMs?
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: awaken DM golem on July 22, 2008, 12:15:47 AM
Hey, along those lines ...

Q 47 : Solo Monster of Level X , and add 1 template to it , what is it's level now ??

Example ---> Beholder is mentioned in the Lich MM entry. The lil' Beholder is easy. What's the "big" Beholder w/ Lich ??
{ ... insert haven't memorized the whole rule-set smiley face ... }
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: awaken DM golem on July 25, 2008, 09:38:45 PM

Q 48 : If I ask a question, that nobody has an answer to (including me) ... then ...
Does Pun-Pun still shit in the woods ...  ???
;)
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Squirrelloid on July 25, 2008, 09:54:50 PM

Q 48 : If I ask a question, that nobody has an answer to (including me) ... then ...
Does Pun-Pun still shit in the woods ...  ???
;)

Only if he wants to.

Seriously, I'm too busy trying to figure out how the shit in the PHB says it works.  The MM is well beyond my range of inquiry.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Dan2 on July 25, 2008, 10:08:41 PM
A47:I am in no way the best person to try to answer this, but I can give it a shot.

A template makes a normal monster an elite monster (assuming you start with a normal monster).
An elite monster is "worth" two monsters of the same level.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see *any* level increase.

I figure that applying the template to a solo monster of level X makes a stronger monster of level X.

If you read Elite as adding one "monster's worth", then the Solo with a template would be "worth" 6 monsters of the same level (rather than 5).

If you read Elite as doubling the monster's "worth", then the Solo with a template would be worth 10 monsters of the same level.

I suppose you could eyeball an increase in level by looking at the experience value of the solo monsters that are one or two levels higher.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: DemonLord57 on July 25, 2008, 10:14:07 PM
Hey, along those lines ...

Q 47 : Solo Monster of Level X , and add 1 template to it , what is it's level now ??

Example ---> Beholder is mentioned in the Lich MM entry. The lil' Beholder is easy. What's the "big" Beholder w/ Lich ??
{ ... insert haven't memorized the whole rule-set smiley face ... }

I don't think there are any guidelines for it, but you could double the exp they're worth. Then they're ten creatures of exp.

One way of looking at it is:
Normal --> Elite = 2xExp, Elite --> Solo = 2.5xExp, Solo --> ??? = ???xExp.
I think it could be 2, but a strong case could be made for 3 as well, the obvious series being 2, 2.5, 3. The problem is that it becomes increasingly ridiculous, the recursive equation for the number of templates (with elite being 1, solo being 2) being r(n) = r(n-1)*(1.5+.5n), r(0) = 1 and that makes it a bit ridiculous at 15 creatures worth.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Eepop on July 25, 2008, 10:30:31 PM
But by the same token, the challenge provided by a solo monster with a template applied could very well be equal to 15 monsters worth.  There are currently no guidelines for how challenging a solo with template should be, the only way we are going to know is through practice.  And that amount of research wouldn't be appropriate for a simple question thread.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: awaken DM golem on July 26, 2008, 08:32:24 PM
Two threads at once confuses my personality parasite (oh wait, that's soo 3.5 edition, oops).

OK so ...
... multiply by 2, on a solo + template = 10 monsters
guesstimate ?? !!
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: brislove on August 07, 2008, 05:25:48 AM
the economy of actions comes into play at this point. As does damage output.

at some point it's not increasing the difficulty in the same fashion that additional monsters would because solo+elite templated monster can only do one thing a round, and only does so much damage.

If you took a dragon, and added the elite template to it. I am fairly confident it would lose pretty hard to 5 equal level characters, as they would use dailies to get buffs running, and the dragons damage output would still be unlikely to outrace the parties damage/healing capabilities.

The templates add a certain amount to the monsters, I don't think they are designed to have more then 1 template applied to them, as that would increase their defenses to an unreasonably high level (as per just using a higher level monster).

If you wanted a very challenging encounter adding elite to a solo monster would probably be a reasonable thing to do. I would estimate it would be closer to raising the encounter level then raising the creature count.

If you look at what the elite template adds to the solo template. it's basically just HP, an action point, and some defense buffs. You want to give more uses of encounter powers, but how would you do that? I would probably take one of the solo monsters encounter powers and give it a recharge of 5-6 or 6. or add an extra chance to recharge one of the recharge abilities. (such as a dragons breath weapon that recharges on 5-6 make it 4-5-6).
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: highbulp on August 07, 2008, 06:06:55 AM
cut for space

The DMG pretty clearly states that you should give monsters more actions per round when bumping them up to elite/solo status. Such as making encounter powers recharge, or giving them immediate actions, or having regular "attacks" actually be two attacks, an so on. That's part of the fun/challenge of upgrading monsters :)

And really, giving monsters action points IS giving them extra actions!
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Momar on August 14, 2008, 01:40:28 AM
Q48: Would characters or other critters riding some sort flying contraption, such as an airship or flying carpet, still be affected by the Tarrasque's aura at all? What about a cloud chariot or other conjuration?
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Kuroimaken on August 17, 2008, 07:09:11 AM
Q49: Considering Shuriken are sold in bundles of 5 and are "thrown only" weapons, would the price for a magic weapon apply to only one Shuriken or to sets of five?
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Momar on August 18, 2008, 10:59:27 PM
Q50: Concerning the Mad Wraith's (MM 266) touch of chaos ability, is it considered forced movement when the target moves to attack?
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: PhoenixInferno on August 31, 2008, 11:03:45 AM
Q51: Swordmage's Frost Backlash is an Immediate Interrupt that triggers on hit - does that mean if the attack kills the originator of the attack, the attack never occurs, or just the damage never happens.  I believe the answer is yes, but I just want clarification.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: X-Codes on August 31, 2008, 02:14:06 PM
Q51: Swordmage's Frost Backlash is an Immediate Interrupt that triggers on hit - does that mean if the attack kills the originator of the attack, the attack never occurs, or just the damage never happens.  I believe the answer is yes, but I just want clarification.
The attack never occurs because Frost Backlash happens first, and if the attacker is dead then they can't attack.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: DemonLord57 on August 31, 2008, 07:16:11 PM
Q48: Would characters or other critters riding some sort flying contraption, such as an airship or flying carpet, still be affected by the Tarrasque's aura at all? What about a cloud chariot or other conjuration?
A48: No, they wouldn't be affected by the reduced fly speed or reduced altitude, (as only creatures are affected, and they're not the ones with the fly speed and max altitude) but yes, they would be affected by the latter part of the aura's text.
Text:
Quote from: MM, 13
Earthbinding aura 40; any flying creature in the aura has its fly speed reduced to 1 and maximum altitude reduced to 20 feet (putting it within the tarrasque’s reach). Any creature above this altitude at the end of its turn falls to an altitude of 20 feet automatically.
As you can see, you'll fall somehow. It doesn't exactly tell you the interaction between this and flying things, but I would think it would cause a great amount of force on the creatures until they are within 20 feet, which may or may not move the flying object being used, but will definitely keep them pinned to the ground. Of course, you may rule that if they have something keeping them from falling (keeping them basically flying) then it doesn't apply.

Q49: Considering Shuriken are sold in bundles of 5 and are "thrown only" weapons, would the price for a magic weapon apply to only one Shuriken or to sets of five?
A49: One. Magic enhancements are now all per weapon, and they made throwing weapons return to you. No more abuse using magic enhancements that aren't related to the weapon's effectiveness/longevity in use on ammunition.

Q50: Concerning the Mad Wraith's (MM 266) touch of chaos ability, is it considered forced movement when the target moves to attack?
A50: No. Forced Movement is only push, pull, and slide, and also other things would prevent it from being forced movement anyway.
Relevant text: (underlined is important text)
Quote from: PHB, 285
[size=+1]Pull, Push, and Slide[/size]
Certain powers and effects allow you to pull, push, or slide a target.
PULL, PUSH, AND SLIDE
? Pull: When you pull a creature, each square you move it must bring it nearer to you.
? Push: When you push a creature, each square you move it must place it farther away from you.
? Slide: When you slide a creature, there’s no restriction on the direction you can move it.
Whether you’re pulling, pushing, or sliding a target, certain rules govern all forced movement.
FORCED MOVEMENT
? Line of Effect: You must have line of effect to any square you pull, push, or slide a creature into.
? Distance in Squares: The power you’re using specifies how many squares you can move a target. You can choose to move the target fewer squares or not to move it at all. You can’t move the target vertically.
? Specific Destination: Some powers don’t specify a distance in squares but instead specify a destination, such as “adjacent” (a square adjacent to you).
? No Opportunity Attacks: Forced movement does not provoke opportunity attacks or other opportunity actions.
? Ignore Difficult Terrain: Forced movement isn’t hindered by difficult terrain.
? Not a Move: Forced movement doesn’t count against a target’s ability to move on its turn. A target’s speed is irrelevant to the distance you move it.
The movement that the target takes would provoke OAs and be affected by difficult terrain. Notice that while it never explicitly states that it's only push, pull, and slide, it heavily implies it with the text preceding the forced movement list and the line of effect bullet in said list.

Q51: Swordmage's Frost Backlash is an Immediate Interrupt that triggers on hit - does that mean if the attack kills the originator of the attack, the attack never occurs, or just the damage never happens.  I believe the answer is yes, but I just want clarification.
The attack never occurs because Frost Backlash happens first, and if the attacker is dead then they can't attack.
But the power would still be expended. (I believe, it never explains well what happens when your action is interrupted)
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: X-Codes on August 31, 2008, 09:30:39 PM
But the power would still be expended. (I believe, it never explains well what happens when your action is interrupted)
Doesn't matter what happens when you kill an NPC if their power was expended or not, they're dead!

As for whether or not your power was expended when doing so, of course it is!

If YOU trigger an Immediate Interrupt by using a power and get killed by the Interrupt... then I don't know, I'd think it wouldn't get expended.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: DemonLord57 on September 01, 2008, 02:47:33 AM
But the power would still be expended. (I believe, it never explains well what happens when your action is interrupted)
Doesn't matter what happens when you kill an NPC if their power was expended or not, they're dead!

As for whether or not your power was expended when doing so, of course it is!

If YOU trigger an Immediate Interrupt by using a power and get killed by the Interrupt... then I don't know, I'd think it wouldn't get expended.
As I said, there's insufficiently clear text on this topic, so I can't really argue that that view is incorrect. I just think (my view) that you would lose it.
The unclear relevant text:
Quote from: PHB, 268, about immediate actions
- Interrupt: An immediate interrupt lets you jump in when a certain trigger condition arises, acting before the trigger resolves. If an interrupt invalidates a triggering action, that action is lost. For example, an enemy makes a melee attack against you, but you use a power that lets you shift away as an immediate interrupt. If your enemy can no longer reach you, the enemy’s attack action is lost.
The 'action' or 'attack action' is lost. Now, what does that mean? ...... ??? Would you simply lose the standard action you used to attack, or would the power continue to expend itself? When does expending happen? <insert host of other strange things not mentioned in the PHB that make this more confusing>? Since nothing about losing actions is mentioned at all elsewhere, or what an 'attack action' even is, let alone answering these relevant questions... yeah, slightly confusing.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Kuroimaken on September 01, 2008, 03:55:06 AM
Quote
A49: One. Magic enhancements are now all per weapon, and they made throwing weapons return to you. No more abuse using magic enhancements that aren't related to the weapon's effectiveness/longevity in use on ammunition.

Yeah, that's the thing. That's what I figured as well, but I can't find any specific rules text on this - and shuriken are, effectively, ammunition-only weapons. Every other piece of ammo in the PHB has a "propelling system" (slings--> bullets, crossbow--> bolts, bows--> arrows). Shuriken don't.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: DemonLord57 on September 01, 2008, 05:02:52 AM
Quote
A49: One. Magic enhancements are now all per weapon, and they made throwing weapons return to you. No more abuse using magic enhancements that aren't related to the weapon's effectiveness/longevity in use on ammunition.

Yeah, that's the thing. That's what I figured as well, but I can't find any specific rules text on this - and shuriken are, effectively, ammunition-only weapons. Every other piece of ammo in the PHB has a "propelling system" (slings--> bullets, crossbow--> bolts, bows--> arrows). Shuriken don't.
You are using 3e logic to cloud your judgment. It's clearly not 1/5 the price to do magically enhance ammunition as you can't magically enhance ammunition.
Quote from: PHB, 232
Ammunition: Ranged weapons such as bows, crossbows, and slings impart their magic to appropriate ammunition fired from them. Ammunition (such as arrows, bolts, or sling stones) doesn’t come in magical versions. You can’t craft (or find) a +1 flameburst arrow or a +3 sling stone.
Besides that, there is a separate category for what a shuriken is: a thrown weapon.
Quote from: PHB, 232
Thrown Weapons: Any magic light thrown or heavy thrown weapon, from the lowly +1 shuriken to a +6 perfect hunter’s spear, automatically returns to its wielder’s hand after a ranged attack with the weapon is resolved.

Catching a returning thrown weapon is a free action; if you do not wish (or are unable) to catch the weapon, it falls at your feet in your space.
Shuriken are weapons, whereas all ammunition are... ammunition. Shuriken are listed on the weapon table, ammunition is not. You can enhance shuriken, you cannot with ammunition. There is nothing at all that remotely suggests that you enhance shurikens in groups of 5. You are using 3e concepts/ideas to extrapolate that the stats for the mundane ones could mean that they are enhanced in groups of 5, but the leap is unwarranted.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Kuroimaken on September 01, 2008, 09:27:08 PM
Quote
You are using allowing 3e logic to cloud your judgment. It's clearly not 1/5 the price to do magically enhance ammunition as you can't magically enhance ammunition.

Because it makes no sense for me to use something to impair MY judgement.  ;)

Quote
Shuriken are weapons, whereas all ammunition are... ammunition. Shuriken are listed on the weapon table, ammunition is not. You can enhance shuriken, you cannot with ammunition. There is nothing at all that remotely suggests that you enhance shurikens in groups of 5. You are using 3e concepts/ideas to extrapolate that the stats for the mundane ones could mean that they are enhanced in groups of 5, but the leap is unwarranted.

Except every other thrown weapon is also listed as a melee weapon, with costs for a single unit. Hence my confusion.

Besides, what's the big deal with that anyway? It's not as if you can make multiple attacks without using a power. Heck, the only use I see for that would be to use Blinding Barrage, and it's a daily.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Agita on September 07, 2008, 07:14:21 PM
Q 52

Can you still voluntarily fail on rolls/attack rolls? Specifically, can you choose to fail your roll against yourself if you target Sleep centered on you (because you're, say, surrounded by enemies)?
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Kuroimaken on September 07, 2008, 08:47:58 PM
A52: I can't find any mention of being able to exclude/voluntarily fail rolls versus yourself on any part of the book. However, the Arcane Accuracy epic feat allows you to exclude a number of squares from any power you use equal to your Wisdom modifier.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Agita on September 18, 2008, 07:54:46 AM
Q 53

By Flame Sphere's wording, it could be sustained for the whole encounter with a single Minor action, is that correct?

Quote
Sustain Minor: You can sustain this power until the end of the encounter.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: X-Codes on September 18, 2008, 10:07:21 AM
A53 When sustaining a power, you must use the sustain action every turn.  A sustainable power pops at the end of the first turn you don't cast or sustain it.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Maximiano on October 22, 2008, 04:44:09 AM
Q54

Where can i find, if there is one, a list of defense scores averages for each monster.

Scenario:
My wizard is buffed in all knowledges, i auto-know name and keywords of monsters.
Being a human i can target all defenses of the beasts, so i need to know the lowest of each kind (brute,lurker, etc)

Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Banor on October 22, 2008, 07:09:44 AM
Brute tend to have a high Fortitude due to high CON/STR scores and low AC
Lurker/Skirmisher tend to have high Reflex
Controller tend to have good Will Saves
Artillery tend to have low AC
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Kuroimaken on October 22, 2008, 04:58:40 PM
Q55:

Has a good book for 4e been out lately? We get them later than everyone else, so I figured I'd look around.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Banor on October 23, 2008, 06:12:44 AM
Adventurer Vault got some really items. I love it.

Forgotten Realm Player Guide is ok. Some Paragon are Decent, some suck totally. I love Dark Pact Warlock it put Striker back into Warlock.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Oshi on November 01, 2008, 01:46:16 PM
Q56: Rangers Archers Quarry, Do your opponents turn's count as different rounds for the extra damage. lets say you designate something as your quarry, hit it with something, do the extra damage. And then during their turn, do something like Disruptive Strike, an immidiate interupt; would that attack be elidgable for Quarry damage?

Q57: Battlefield archers ability to mark multiple enemies as their quarries. Are you still limited to doing quarry damage once per turn OR just once per quarry per turn?
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: highbulp on November 01, 2008, 04:07:37 PM
Q56: Rangers Archers Quarry, Do your opponents turn's count as different rounds for the extra damage. lets say you designate something as your quarry, hit it with something, do the extra damage. And then during their turn, do something like Disruptive Strike, an immidiate interupt; would that attack be elidgable for Quarry damage?

Q57: Battlefield archers ability to mark multiple enemies as their quarries. Are you still limited to doing quarry damage once per turn OR just once per quarry per turn?

A56: No. A round is once through the initiative. A round involves each person taking a turn.
A57: You're limited to doing damage once per round, no matter how many quarries you have. The same way a Warlock's curse damage can only be applied once per round, even if they have cursed multiple people.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Agita on February 06, 2009, 10:09:19 PM
Ninja bumb, necromancy style!

Q 58

What bonuses apply to the secondary attack (and the damage from it) from All Bets Are Off (Pit Fighter 11 Encounter Attack), exactly? Everything that would also apply to the weapon the primary attack was done with (i.e., proficiency and enhancement bonuses, Weapon Focus...)? Seems odd, since you're pretty much pimp-slapping them, not attacking with your weapon. What about the extra damage from Two-Weapon Fighting, if you attacked with your main weapon?
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: BowenSilverclaw on July 15, 2009, 10:11:40 AM
Nevermind, found it :)
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Agita on July 18, 2009, 12:05:06 PM
Q 60

I remember reading about the interaction between resistance and vulnerability, specifically how resistances to different types react to attacks with more than one keyword and what happens when a creature gains vulnerable X to a damage type it has resistance to, but I can't seem to find the passage. Could alyone point me in its general direction?

Q 61

Alternatively, what happens if a creature with resistance to cold gains vulnerability to cold by being hit by a character with the Lasting Frost feat?

Q 62

What ways are there to break the 1/encounter Action Point limit for a ranger, preferably not tied to a specific source (Violet solitaire and Punisher of the Gods, for example, break the cap only for APs granted by their specific power/feature)? I'm aware of Warmaster, but is there anything which a) comes sooner, or b) does not require a multiclass?
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: AlterFrom on July 18, 2009, 05:08:14 PM
A 60
According to the errata (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/UpdatePH.pdf), resistances to damage that is multi-typed is limited by your smallest value of resistance against all types present. The example given is resist 10 lightning and 5 thunder reducing 15 lightning and thunder damage to 10 damage, being limited by the 5 resist thunder.

A 61
In general, having resistance and vulnerability to the same damage type works as you might expect. Since resistance decreases by X damage adn vulnerability increases by Y damage, you can effectively make a net modifier of X-Y. The only corner case is when the resistance might reduce damage to 0 if applied before vulnerability, which, IIRC, has not been covered in errata. Ask your DM on this one.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: PhoenixInferno on July 18, 2009, 05:32:40 PM
Q 62

What ways are there to break the 1/encounter Action Point limit for a ranger, preferably not tied to a specific source (Violet solitaire and Punisher of the Gods, for example, break the cap only for APs granted by their specific power/feature)? I'm aware of Warmaster, but is there anything which a) comes sooner, or b) does not require a multiclass?
A 62 None that I'm aware of.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: BowenSilverclaw on July 18, 2009, 05:34:48 PM
A 61
In general, having resistance and vulnerability to the same damage type works as you might expect. Since resistance decreases by X damage adn vulnerability increases by Y damage, you can effectively make a net modifier of X-Y. The only corner case is when the resistance might reduce damage to 0 if applied before vulnerability, which, IIRC, has not been covered in errata. Ask your DM on this one.

I believe I read somewhere, I think it was the FAQ, that you're suppossed to apply resistance and vulnerability simultaneously, not one before the other.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: BowenSilverclaw on July 21, 2009, 11:24:55 AM
Q63: Can I use the powers from Bloodclaw and Reckless weapons to gain a damage boost with another weapon?

For example, say I'm wielding a Frost Bastard Sword and a Reckless Bastard Sword, does the Reckless ability give me extra damage on all my attacks, or only on those made with the Reckless weapon itself?

Same question for the Bloodclaw ability, does it only work on the Bloodclaw weapon itself, or do I get the bonus damage on all attacks with all weapons?


Thanks,
Bowen
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Agita on July 21, 2009, 12:20:01 PM
Q63: Can I use the powers from Bloodclaw and Reckless weapons to gain a damage boost with another weapon?

For example, say I'm wielding a Frost Bastard Sword and a Reckless Bastard Sword, does the Reckless ability give me extra damage on all my attacks, or only on those made with the Reckless weapon itself?

Same question for the Bloodclaw ability, does it only work on the Bloodclaw weapon itself, or do I get the bonus damage on all attacks with all weapons?


Thanks,
Bowen
A 63

AFAIK yes. Remember good old Bloodclaw Gauntlets cheese?
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: BowenSilverclaw on July 21, 2009, 01:55:39 PM
Thanks :)

Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Vinom on July 28, 2009, 11:05:15 PM
Q64:Druids gain trackless step at level 3... is there a quickerway to get this class feature?
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Agita on July 28, 2009, 11:36:50 PM
Q64:Druids gain trackless step at level 3... is there a quickerway to get this class feature?
A 64

I don't think so. And you might want to post this in the corresponding 3e thread. ;)
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Vinom on July 28, 2009, 11:39:43 PM
Q64:Druids gain trackless step at level 3... is there a quickerway to get this class feature?
A 64

I don't think so. And you might want to post this in the corresponding 3e thread. ;)
:lol I thought this was the fourth edition of the question thread... not the fourth edition question thread
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: PhoenixInferno on July 28, 2009, 11:42:08 PM
A 62 Actually, I think a Human Ranger can use the Adroit Explorer PP.  I'd have to double check that, though.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: lotofsnow on July 30, 2009, 02:33:55 PM
Q65: When critting with an attack power through a magic implement, does one roll the critical bonus damage if the power wouldn't normally do damage at all?
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: PhoenixInferno on July 30, 2009, 05:50:48 PM
Q65: When critting with an attack power through a magic implement, does one roll the critical bonus damage if the power wouldn't normally do damage at all?
A65 Doubt it, but since there weren't a lot of "no-damage" powers in the first PHB, I wonder if they never thought about it.  It's worth asking WotC directly.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: lotofsnow on July 30, 2009, 06:06:26 PM
Q65: When critting with an attack power through a magic implement, does one roll the critical bonus damage if the power wouldn't normally do damage at all?
A65 Doubt it, but since there weren't a lot of "no-damage" powers in the first PHB, I wonder if they never thought about it.  It's worth asking WotC directly.

Yeah, I'm blind. Right above the Extra Damage entry in the PHB, the text states:

Maximum Damage: Rather than roll damage,
determine the maximum damage you can roll with
your attack. This is your critical damage. (Attacks
that don’t deal damage still don’t deal damage on a
critical hit.)


Bolded for emphasis.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Silent Wayfarer on August 31, 2009, 06:15:03 AM
Q66: If I hold a staff of ruin in my offhand while I have Dual Implement Spellcaster, do I get the staff's property / bonus damage to my spells?
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Kuroimaken on November 17, 2009, 07:04:17 PM
RISE FROM YOUR GRAVE!!

Q66:

Situation: character is bloodied next to a bullywug. If he spends a healing surge next to the monster, he'll be weakened until the end of his next turn (or save ends, I can't recall). Since 4e states that every character is always aware of what will happen at any given time, he knows this.

A Warlord spends an use of Inspiring Word on his colleague. Now, he knows that spending that healing surge will make him weakened, so he refuses.

The question is: does the additional HP granted by Inspiring Word apply regardless of the HS expenditure, or is it conditional on it? The way I see it, he gets the additional benefit regardless, but the text seems ambiguous enough to allow for either interpretation.

Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: awaken DM golem on November 18, 2009, 12:23:11 AM
Perhaps a custom immediate interrupt is in store, as in
Free Action say "I'm weakened !!"

Your party mates don't Know your condition, but you do, so you tell them before they do the next action.
I'd houserule that a Readied action still happens, unless the Actor ~chokes the action.

I'm sure there are some more semi-fluff statements buried in the various books, that could apply here.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Kuroimaken on November 18, 2009, 12:33:29 AM

I was more worried about it rules-wise. Fluff in 4e is something you make up, not something that comes with the packaging.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: AlterFrom on November 19, 2009, 01:10:22 AM
A66 The additional healing is called out as "additional," yes? You can't have "additional" something unless you have some of it first. The ally has to spend the HS to gain the additional healing; I think any other X-Word power would work the same way.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Kuroimaken on November 19, 2009, 01:47:23 AM
A66 The additional healing is called out as "additional," yes? You can't have "additional" something unless you have some of it first. The ally has to spend the HS to gain the additional healing; I think any other X-Word power would work the same way.

I actually managed to solve this one on my own. I reached the same conclusion you did, but not on that basis (which I find shaky, by the way).

As it turns out, the wording on any X-Word power is "can spend... and regain". Due to the absence of an s at the end of "regain", the structure conditions "regain" to the possibility of spending a healing surge (otherwise we'd have the verb in the present tense rather than the base form, which would break the condition clause).

Foiled by the lack of an S!
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: AlterFrom on November 19, 2009, 06:10:52 AM
A66 The additional healing is called out as "additional," yes? You can't have "additional" something unless you have some of it first. The ally has to spend the HS to gain the additional healing; I think any other X-Word power would work the same way.

I actually managed to solve this one on my own. I reached the same conclusion you did, but not on that basis (which I find shaky, by the way).

As it turns out, the wording on any X-Word power is "can spend... and regain". Due to the absence of an s at the end of "regain", the structure conditions "regain" to the possibility of spending a healing surge (otherwise we'd have the verb in the present tense rather than the base form, which would break the condition clause).

Foiled by the lack of an S!

I had a feeling the problem could be solved with a over-analysis of English grammar constructions!  :D
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Kuroimaken on November 19, 2009, 11:43:21 AM
A66 The additional healing is called out as "additional," yes? You can't have "additional" something unless you have some of it first. The ally has to spend the HS to gain the additional healing; I think any other X-Word power would work the same way.

I actually managed to solve this one on my own. I reached the same conclusion you did, but not on that basis (which I find shaky, by the way).

As it turns out, the wording on any X-Word power is "can spend... and regain". Due to the absence of an s at the end of "regain", the structure conditions "regain" to the possibility of spending a healing surge (otherwise we'd have the verb in the present tense rather than the base form, which would break the condition clause).

Foiled by the lack of an S!

I had a feeling the problem could be solved with a over-analysis of English grammar constructions!  :D

Aye, the hard part was to convince my DM he was right, strangely enough.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Glasscannon on December 27, 2009, 08:26:20 PM
Q 67
When using Footwork Lure, if you can shift 2 squares with Fluttering Leaf Style and/or Mark Of Passage, does "the space you left" refer to "the last space out of which you shifted" or "the space you occupied when you hit"?

M=me, T=target

# # #
# T #
# M # The attack hits.

# # #
# T M
# # # I shift one square.

# # M
# T #
# # # I use Fluttering Leaf Style to shift again, ending my movement adjacent to the target.

# # M
# # T
# # # I slide the target one square into the square I just left. I slide the target one square, so don't mention the November errata.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: AlterFrom on December 28, 2009, 02:36:11 AM
A 67

I suspect the intent was for you to slide the target into the square you hit in, as evidenced by the power's "default" resolution with only Shift 1.

However, strictly RAW, a case could be made for sliding the target into any square you left, so long as the slide does not exceed 1 square (per the December errata, which you mentioned being aware of). I hate to say it as an answer, but you probably need to ask your DM about how s/he will rule it.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: BowenSilverclaw on March 19, 2010, 03:31:10 PM
Q68: If I have a character that has both a weapon with which I have Weapon Expertise and a Ki Focus implement (note that the Ki Focus is not a weapon), and I attack with a Weapon power while using the Enhancement bonus and property of the Ki Focus, not those of the weapon, do I still benefit from the Weapon Expertise feat?

Thanks,
Bowen
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Agita on March 19, 2010, 04:09:22 PM
A 68

Unless I'm missing something, you wouldn't be able to use the Ki Focus's enhancements and properties in the first place if it's not a weapon.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: BowenSilverclaw on March 19, 2010, 04:17:26 PM
A 68

Unless I'm missing something, you wouldn't be able to use the Ki Focus's enhancements and properties in the first place if it's not a weapon.
It's kinda what they do...

Anywho, problem solved, just take Versatile Expertise :)
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Agita on March 19, 2010, 04:23:43 PM
A 68

Unless I'm missing something, you wouldn't be able to use the Ki Focus's enhancements and properties in the first place if it's not a weapon.
It's kinda what they do...
Sorry, I haven't looked that well through my PHB 3 yet. :P If that's what they do, then yes, take Versatile Expertise.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: BowenSilverclaw on April 08, 2010, 08:43:55 PM
Q69: Is there any way for a spellcaster to use an implement that they can't normally use?
In particular, I'm wondering if there's a way for a Swordmage to use a Staff as an implement.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Agita on April 08, 2010, 08:49:11 PM
A 69

Arcane Implement Proficiency, Arcane Power.
But why would you want to use a staff on a Swordmage? Staffs suck ass as weapons.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: BowenSilverclaw on April 08, 2010, 08:58:49 PM
A 69

Arcane Implement Proficiency, Arcane Power.
But why would you want to use a staff on a Swordmage? Staffs suck ass as weapons.
Just fiddling with some ideas, mostly Staff of Ruin, assuming I can use the Staff as both a Weapon and an Implement at the same time ofcourse...
Can I? I really wouldn't know...


EDIT: And I just noticed Arcane Implement Proficiency won't let me add the Staff's proficiency bonus when used as a weapon.
I guess I can kiss that idea goodbye...
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Agita on April 08, 2010, 09:21:31 PM
EDIT: And I just noticed Arcane Implement Proficiency won't let me add the Staff's proficiency bonus when used as a weapon.
I guess I can kiss that idea goodbye...
That means you don't get its proficiency bonus on Implement powers (every single other ability or feat that lets you use a weapon as an implement has the exact same clause). So the trick works, but it's not worth it IMO.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: BowenSilverclaw on April 09, 2010, 10:47:08 AM
EDIT: And I just noticed Arcane Implement Proficiency won't let me add the Staff's proficiency bonus when used as a weapon.
I guess I can kiss that idea goodbye...
That means you don't get its proficiency bonus on Implement powers (every single other ability or feat that lets you use a weapon as an implement has the exact same clause). So the trick works, but it's not worth it IMO.
But don't you only get a Weapon's proficiency bonus on Weapon powers?

The way I read Arcane Implement Proficiency I thought that if I were to use a Staff as both the weapon and implement with a Swordmage power (those have both the Weapon and Implement keyword most of the time, right? Been AFB for a long while...) I won't get the proficiency bonus on the attack roll.

Sorry for the noobishness :embarrassed
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Agita on April 09, 2010, 02:14:25 PM
EDIT: And I just noticed Arcane Implement Proficiency won't let me add the Staff's proficiency bonus when used as a weapon.
I guess I can kiss that idea goodbye...
That means you don't get its proficiency bonus on Implement powers (every single other ability or feat that lets you use a weapon as an implement has the exact same clause). So the trick works, but it's not worth it IMO.
But don't you only get a Weapon's proficiency bonus on Weapon powers?
Exactly, hence why every single ability that lets you use a weapon as an implement reminds you that the proficiency bonus doesn't apply to Implement powers.

The way I read Arcane Implement Proficiency I thought that if I were to use a Staff as both the weapon and implement with a Swordmage power (those have both the Weapon and Implement keyword most of the time, right? Been AFB for a long while...) I won't get the proficiency bonus on the attack roll.

Sorry for the noobishness :embarrassed
Next to no powers have both the Implement and the Weapon keyword, it's usually either one or the other. The only one I can think of that does something similar is Prayer of Two Paths, a Paladin 5 Daily, and that still doesn't have both keywords. Instead, it's a weapon power with a secodary attack that uses an implement. I assume no powers have both keywords precisely because of wonkyness such as what you pointed out.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Glasscannon on April 24, 2010, 03:41:01 PM
Q 70
Can a distinction be made between "you can add 1 square to the distance of forced movement" and "you can move the target 1 additional square"?
(Yes, this one is also about the Footwork Lure nerf.)
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: X-Codes on June 18, 2010, 01:47:31 AM
Q71

Does anyone bother with guides on this forum?
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Agita on June 18, 2010, 01:58:06 AM
A 71

Not really. There's just too little traffic, I think.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Nox_Noctis on July 17, 2010, 11:12:41 PM
Q72: What options exist for gaining immunity to the dazed condition?
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: archangel.arcanis on July 29, 2010, 09:34:05 PM
Q73 Can powers that state Melee Weapon be used with a thrown weapon at range? For example can a Fighter use Reaping Strike with a Javelin when not in Melee with someone?
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Agita on July 29, 2010, 09:52:00 PM
Q73 Can powers that state Melee Weapon be used with a thrown weapon at range? For example can a Fighter use Reaping Strike with a Javelin when not in Melee with someone?
A 73

No. 'Melee' or 'Ranged' states the power's range, not the kind of weapon it has to be used with. Similarly, a Ranged power can be used with a thrown weapon, but it can't be used with such a weapon in melee and ignore OAs. The specification "Melee weapon" as opposed to, for instance, "Melee 1" or "Melee 2", as found on some powers, states that it uses the weapon's normal reach - 1 for most weapons, 2 for polearms.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Epimetheus on August 06, 2010, 07:54:35 AM
Q 74

Does Twist of Space let you teleport the enemy 3 spaces into the air? People say they get a save for it (Catching Yourself PH pg 284), but if the enemy succeeds, they still fall prone (and are slowed), right? If that's the case, this power becomes awesome as a 7th lvl Wizard encounter.

d6 + INT dmg, + 1d10 (falling 15') + prone + slow (for 1 turn) should it hit enemies in an area burst 1. (Awesome for enlarging and it'd usually waste the coming turn of any melee enemies.)
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Agita on August 06, 2010, 12:55:19 PM
A 74

Yes. This was confirmed in a recent errata (May or July, I think), which said that a creature forced to teleport upwards gets the regular save to catch itself. I don't remember if they still fall prone or not, though. It also reduced the range of a power that previously allowed you to teleport a target up to 20 squares.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Epimetheus on August 06, 2010, 09:26:50 PM
Thanks. (Actually, it seems to be January 2010)

Q75

If I use a pushing power to push someone off a cliff, they get a save to end the forced movement right at the edge of the cliff (and fall prone). If I have subsequent powers that either force them to move away from me at full speed, or allow me to slide them 1 square, what happens?

I think it's one of these:
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: Agita on August 06, 2010, 09:47:59 PM
They would get an additional save for every time you try to force them off the cliff.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: awaken DM golem on August 07, 2010, 08:45:08 PM
half-@ss'd A75 ... this is quite close to a simple tactic Orcus and his minions can use, to prove he's not a Cupcake.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: kevin_video on August 16, 2011, 08:34:34 AM
Q 76 Looking at the Scales of War adventure, and was wondering what the bitumen torch was that goblins have, where it was located in the books to read up on, and if there was a 3.5 equivalent (for a better understanding)?
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: veekie on August 16, 2011, 09:13:07 AM
A 76

While this isn't 4E specific...Bitumen (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Bitumen) Torches are just torches dipped in pitch. Its just a normal torch.
Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: awaken DM golem on August 17, 2011, 12:11:26 AM
The Goblins succeeded on a skill challenge to get the Torch lit ...  ;)


Maybe the Knowledge Dungeoneering skill "contains" Bitumen.
Although in greek mythos, fire is a gift from Prometheus,
so that'd be a Knowledge Divine check.

Title: Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
Post by: kevin_video on September 09, 2011, 05:40:02 AM
Q 77 What exactly are black pudding spawns? I just read over the black puddings themselves, and I seem to be missing the standard write up that should say "when a character gets killed, they rise up as an ooze spawn".