Brilliant Gameologists Forum
The Thinktank => Min/Max It! => : VennDygrem May 12, 2009, 03:22:33 AM
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So I, too, am playing in the Fall of Sharn PbP game being DM'd by Sinfire Titan. As a refresher, here are the houserules:
- Limited Gestalt: Gestalt is allowed, but by tier. (For reference, JaronK's 'Tier System for Classes' Thread (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0))
Tier 1's are on their own. Tier 2 can gestalt with NPC classes only. Tier 3 can gestalt with Tier 4 and lower, Tier 4 with 3 and lower, etc. Beguiler, however, is considered Tier 2; Totemist is tier 3, Incarnate between 2 and 4 depending on optimization, soulborn is obviously tier 5.
One side is primary, and one side is secondary. This means that one class must be used all the way through; For instance, Warblade 20//Barbarian 2/Totemist 8/Totem Rager 10 - 43 PB, starting level is 7 (XP is halfway between 7 and 8 ); Action points are allowed
- 2 Flaws (however, achievable between 1st and 4th level); No traits
- Standard WBL (19000 for ECL 7)
- All characters get Heroic Spirit as a bonus feat, and another open bonus feat at level 10.
- Non-Eberron campaign settings are banned material, with the exception of Oriental Adventures (effectively Sarlona, with some modifications). Specifically out is FR and DL content.
- And more on a case-by-case basis (For instance, Supernatural Transformation can be applied to Eldritch Blast).
----Old Stuff----
[spoiler]
So I decided I wanted to try making something that's usually not very versatile to be more-so. For instance, Barbarians are always melee brutes, great chargers, usually terrible if things get primarily ranged. Warlocks are good at range, and except for a well-optimized Glaivelock, are terrible in melee. However, when you get chocolate in my peanut butter...
Well, this isn't quite that simple. However, I've been looking at using RobbyPants' Rebalanced Barbarian as a Tier 3 class (and have wanted to try it since I first saw it), which means tier 4 and below is good for Gestalting. I've also wanted to try a Warlock for the longest time, but usually it's not worth it. Gestalted, however, I could choose between being a Barbarian with some nice buffs and some nice abilities, or a Warlock with d12 hit dice and full BAB. It also makes for a great glaivelock opportunity.
Wall-o-Text hidden for logical reasons.
[spoiler]Sinfire has stated that he is allowing Supernatural Transformation to apply to invocations (taken separately for each power), including eldritch blast. This means, among other things, I can use it while raging, as it no longer is a power ruled by concentration, and does not provoke AoO's. At first I thought like everyone new to Warlock does, "Hey, that would be great for Hideous Blow!" However, I woke up from that dream and remembered it's still only one attack per round, though admittedly since it no longer provokes AoOs and can be used for much more damage than the standard warlock, it could be... ok, used by a barbarian. Still not sure if it's as good as a regular barbarian with multiple attacks using power attack and a two-handed weapon. At level 7 with a greatsword, that's... 2d6 (7) + 4d6 (14) + 9 str (assuming 18 str and raging for 22 str) + 14 PA = 44 damage vs. (2d6 (7) + 9 str + 14 PA)x2 = 60 total damage, though that's assuming both attacks hit. Better single hit, worse potential damage. That is, until I add haste into the mix, making Attack 1 = Hideous Blow = 44 dmg, + Attack 2 = regular attack = 30 dmg = 74 dmg. ---Edit--- But then again that's only until I get 3 attacks per round. But I digress.
Anyway, the class combination, if fully developed to both sides, is feat starved and MAD. So, I figure there are some things I can trim the fat on. I'll keep an ok Cha score in case I want any invocations with saves, and if I need to be the party face (and I might), and of course for UMD. STR will be decent, but rage will help keep it from being quite as vital. Dex will be ok for skills, bonus to AC, and for the odd time I need to use EB as a ranged attack. Con will obviously be high to absorb hits. The party I'm apparently on has a Shifter Totemist//Barbarian/fighter/weretouched master (eventually bear warrior and warshaper too), a Psion (egoist)//Samurai, some sort of dragon-themed character, and me. I'm not as worried about not having a healer since I'll have good hit points, thp, the egoist's empathic transfer, and my UMD for wands of vigor and such. Hopefully I won't die too often, we'll see. :rollseyes
Anyway, so I'm having trouble truly optimizing this. If my idea works out, doing something along the lines of RP's Barbarian 20//Warlock 16/Binder 1/Hellfire Warlock 3 and using Eldritch Glaive or something should yield some good old-fashioned damage. (Now that I think about it, was it ever ruled whether you can power attack with EG?)
But that's just the thing. The idea is only half-formed. I've got no idea on race, whether or not to bother with a template like Feral for goodies (but at the cost of levels), what weapon combo to attack with, etc. I know DfA synergizes better, but it has fewer invocations and no eldritch glaive.
So far, with 43 PB, level 7, and no racial or template adjustments, I can have stats at:
Str 18, Dex 14, con 18, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 14
As for feats, Power Attack is a given, Supernatural Transformation will be required at least once for Eldritch Blast (and more if there are any good in-combat invocations, but most of them won't be necessary). Other than that, it's mostly up in the air.
[/spoiler]
My question is: Can this be viable? Can I optimize this? Or should I give up and seek some other avenue?[/spoiler]
----New Stuff----
New concept on page 3.
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I wonder if Legacy Champion would be allowed... :D
Or this (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3053.msg94899#msg94899).
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I wonder if Legacy Champion would be allowed... :D
Or this (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3053.msg94899#msg94899).
Class Fixes are usually Tier 3. If he uses that, then his Barbarian side has to be the PHB version. If he uses the fixed Barbarian, then he has to use the unmodified Warlock.
@Venn: Keep in mind that some spell effects still stop your Glaive and EB, despite it being a SUA. Spells like Globe of Invulnerability still consider it a spell (due to the text of the EB class feature itself).
To be honest, you'd be better off not using Rage+Glaive, as Glaive makes no mention of your Str modifier (or Power Attack). This is a touchy subject; even though I'm fully capable of ruling one way or the other, doing so is a tough descision for me (one side likes to see my players succeed, but the other side feels the Glaive shouldn't apply a Str modifier for a few reasons).
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I guess, Rage Mage wouldn't work for your Gestalt Barb/Warlock?
I'd suggest using Dragonfire Adept instead of Warlock.
Entangle Foes with your Breath(already Su, so saves a Feat) and than PA them to death with a Reach Weapon.
Other Idea would require you to somehow gain a Breath Weapon which allows for Metabreath Feats:
Quicken Breath + Fullattack = Win
Ways to get this working:
- Be a Dragonborn with the Heart Aspect
- Be a Halfdragon, that took Dragon Breath(RoD)
- Be a real Dragon on one side of your Gestalt(either advance Dragon HD, or top off with some Gish PrC. Use a Sovereign Archetype, if you can)
- Be a Totemist and use some soulmeld that gives Breath Weapon(IIRC Winter Mask has 1d4 recharge, not sure about Lammasu Mantle)
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I guess, Rage Mage wouldn't work for your Gestalt Barb/Warlock?
I'd suggest using Dragonfire Adept instead of Warlock.
Entangle Foes with your Breath(already Su, so saves a Feat) and than PA them to death with a Reach Weapon.
Other Idea would require you to somehow gain a Breath Weapon which allows for Metabreath Feats:
Quicken Breath + Fullattack = Win
Ways to get this working:
- Be a Dragonborn with the Heart Aspect
- Be a Halfdragon, that took Dragon Breath(RoD)
- Be a real Dragon on one side of your Gestalt(either advance Dragon HD, or top off with some Gish PrC. Use a Sovereign Archetype, if you can)
- Be a Totemist and use some soulmeld that gives Breath Weapon(IIRC Winter Mask has 1d4 recharge, not sure about Lammasu Mantle)
Lammasu Mantle and Winter Mask both have the 1d4 Recharge time. But he can't be a full-dragon on one side of his Gestalt (I made this clear to everyone who joined that campaign that such a thing isn't allowed).
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The best substitute for Rage off the top of my head is the Whirling Frenzy variant from UA(in the SRD). Ferocity from the Cityscape Web Enhancement might work as well(I forget what else it gets, but +4 Dex is part of the deal).
Eldritch Glaive is technically not a Full Attack-it's a full round action. So melees' favorite option(Pounce) becomes impossible without a very specific houserule.
Somebody had to point that out sooner or later with that particular combination of classes.
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Lammasu Mantle and Winter Mask both have the 1d4 Recharge time. But he can't be a full-dragon on one side of his Gestalt (I made this clear to everyone who joined that campaign that such a thing isn't allowed).
He didn't mention it, but that still leaves 3 out of 4 ways to get a Supernatural Attack, that rivals the Eldritch Blast for Damage
and could potentially be used as a free action. Even if he breathes(with entangling Exhalation) and afterwards retreats to
pepper his enemies with ranged Attacks, that would be one scary Barbarian to meet.
Damn, now I want to try this myself. Must make do without Gestalt, tough(has never been used by any DM I play with :()
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Perhaps consider Factotum/Barbarian? Seems like a very flexible barb right there. :)
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The more I try to make this work, the less it does. I did mention DfA in the OP, but as I mentioned it's got access to far fewer invocations, no access to Hellfire Warlock, and works with few if any PrC's; And while it still does get UMD, it doesn't get the very valuable Deceive Item ability to take 10, meaning my Cha would still need to be pretty decent. It's still a good option to keep the general idea of the original concept alive, so I can tinker with it (would be nice if I had access to Warlock invocations, too).
If I can't make this work, I'll just have to go with something else. I'd like to keep either rebalanced barbarian or rebalanced warlock if possible, though just having access to UMD might be enough.
By the way, it looks like the player with the "Something dragon-themed" character is instead looking at either prepared caster or psion, so I'll change that in the OP.
-------------------------Pseudo-Edit-----------------------
Perhaps consider Factotum/Barbarian? Seems like a very flexible barb right there. :)
Factotum is tier 3, and the rebalanced barbarian is also tier 3. Plus, I still couldn't cast spells while in a rage, though choosing buffs for out of combat could still be viable.
Still, Factotum would mesh better with something focusing on intelligence, something not really a barbarian's forté. :D
------------Real-Edit-------------------
Still, the idea still stands that the warlock on one side would give a few options unavailable to a normal barbarian, so I could certainly still go with it, but with a less aggressive pursuit of making them synergize for melee combat. Plus, having hellfire warlock abilities could still be useful.
As for legacy champion, that's something Sinfire suggested for a gestalt DfA//Warlock, though I'm not sure if he was approving the application of LC toward Hellfire warlock's hellfire blast progression or what.
Any ideas on race? I don't want to wrack up too many penalties, and the less LA the better since there is no buyback. Human is obviously always good, especially with a feat-starved combo, though maybe feral would be a nice template on something for the nat armor, fast healing, and pounce. Hmm...
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I do approve of using Legacy Champion to increase the Hellfire Blast ability's damage output.
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So, 'Barbarian 20//Warlock 10/Binder 1/Hellfire Warlock 3/Legacy Champion 6' would mean that at level 20, anyone attacking me will regret it, and anyone not attacking me will regret it. :D
I would benefit most from avoiding LA like a plague to make sure I get enough levels in these classes.
Also, Invoking is a class feature of Hellfire Warlock. Does this get advanced by Legacy Champion as well? I can see the arguments for and against it, as RAW it would get advanced, thus advancing warlock eldritch blast and invocations. Just want to be clear on the implications and interpretation.
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So, 'Barbarian 20//Warlock 10/Binder 1/Hellfire Warlock 3/Legacy Champion 6' would mean that at level 20, anyone attacking me will regret it, and anyone not attacking me will regret it. :D
I would benefit most from avoiding LA like a plague to make sure I get enough levels in these classes.
Also, Invoking is a class feature of Hellfire Warlock. Does this get advanced by Legacy Champion as well? I can see the arguments for and against it, as RAW it would get advanced, thus advancing warlock eldritch blast and invocations. Just want to be clear on the implications and interpretation.
Yes it would. It advances Invoking the same way Hellfire Warlock does (seeing as HFW has that as a class feature).
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Damn, another touch-attacker.
I'm going to have to watch out for your character, Venn :P
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Damn, another touch-attacker.
I'm going to have to watch out for your character, Venn :P
You may have to deal with a Martial Adept too, if Team Good turns out to be short a player (and I'll be using the PsiWar fix I made to test play it's unique style out).
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Just making sure.
Ok then, now to fill in the details. Race, feats, equipment. Just enough will be devoted to assuring access to classes on the warlock side, but little in the way of worrying about some things that normal warlocks do. Precise shot could be useful due to a low dex score, but I'll only worry about it if there's room for it.
I'll also need to procure a legacy item at some point, something I assume is either something I own that seems relatively mundane, or something I will find along the way.
Also wondering if Dragonborn still need to be non-evil since there is no Bahamut to swear loyalty to, and alignment isn't black and white in Eberron. >_>
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Damn, another touch-attacker.
I'm going to have to watch out for your character, Venn :P
Hey, Sinfire said our teams could help or hurt eachother. Given my penchant for swearing off parts of my soul for parcels of power, if the rest of my team gets ganked I'm sure I wouldn't feel too bad joining up with you guys. :lmao
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Just making sure.
Ok then, now to fill in the details. Race, feats, equipment. Just enough will be devoted to assuring access to classes on the warlock side, but little in the way of worrying about some things that normal warlocks do. Precise shot could be useful due to a low dex score, but I'll only worry about it if there's room for it.
I'll also need to procure a legacy item at some point, something I assume is either something I own that seems relatively mundane, or something I will find along the way.
Also wondering if Dragonborn still need to be non-evil since there is no Bahamut to swear loyalty to, and alignment isn't black and white in Eberron. >_>
Bahamut still exists. He's in the Eberron Campaign Setting. In fact, most of the dragon Gods are still in Eberron (Tiamat is the daughter of Khyber, for example). Dragonborn are instead devoted to the great dragon Eberron (not the plane, but the myth). They still need to be non-Evil.
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In that case I won't be getting my Con up to ridiculous potential, but there are other benefits beyond that.
I think going with Warforged is a good call, in case I need to end my rage prematurely during combat, I won't have fatigue penalties and can use a wand of Rage to get a bit of the benefits back after doing what needs to be done, if need-be.
I'll drop Dragonborn for now just in case I need to make some judgement calls that Eberron may not smile upon. :D
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Also, anything to avoid giving anyone any reason to call our group 'Team Dragonstrike' :P
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Buy a Sky Lance. :smirk
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Har Har :P
Anyway, my stats feel abysmal with just warforged. I need LA 0 to get all the class levels I need, but the MAD is killing me. I need ample skill points for PrC requirements, and now having a penalty to cha means fewer points to spread around just to keep an ok score in UMD. Should I just drop the UMD thing altogether? Or go with a different race?
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Har Har :P
Anyway, my stats feel abysmal with just warforged. I need LA 0 to get all the class levels I need, but the MAD is killing me. I need ample skill points for PrC requirements, and now having a penalty to cha means fewer points to spread around just to keep an ok score in UMD. Should I just drop the UMD thing altogether? Or go with a different race?
Just buy a skill booster. The cheaper, the better. It makes up for the penalty.
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I guess I had forgotten about that. I'll definitely be including that in my equipment.
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So, I was just reading over the warforged traits, and noticed that not only do healing spells and effects work at 1/2 capacity, so do spells and supernatural abilities that heal ability damage. Should I assume that applies to Naberius's faster ability healing? If so, I'll have to go with another race...
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Fast Healing is extraordinary, but I'm not sure if that is overruled by binding Naberius.
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@ Negative Zero:
IIRC all powers you get via Soulbinding are Supernatural.
@ Venn:
Shifter might have some merits:
- Shifting + Rage stacks
- some of the Shifter Feats could be useful to you(I know, already to few Feats for your build :rollseyes)
- +2 Dex & one temporary unnamed Bonus from Shifter Trait for a hit in Int & Cha(Warforged wasn't much better, tough)
I'd prefer Con to extend Rage & Shifting by 1 round, as Beasthide also buffs your AC just enough to counter the loss from raging.
If you want another Shifter trait, you could always get it later for a Feat.
You could always go human for Feat and Skillpoints, I guess.
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So, I was just reading over the warforged traits, and noticed that not only do healing spells and effects work at 1/2 capacity, so do spells and supernatural abilities that heal ability damage. Should I assume that applies to Naberius's faster ability healing? If so, I'll have to go with another race...
Faster Ability Healing isn't HP healing. It functions normally (had they taken the ToM into account with Warforged, it would be different).
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Faster ability healing technically isn't even healing. It's just basically increased benefits from rest... every round.
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So you're basically saying it's functionally (Ex) for purposes of determining its viability with Warforged? Rather, since boosts natural ability healing speed rather than directly, the point is moot.
Still, the fact that I can't heal normally means I'll be keeping plenty of wands of repair on-hand.
Unless there's some miracle race with LA 0, good con, and awesome abilities that I'm unaware of. Or if a custom item of tirelessness was viable.
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You want Con?
Dragonborn Mongrelfolk nets you a total +6.
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But also -4 to Cha, hurting UMD. The skill bonus item helps offset this, of course.
Really, the only reason to have a huge Con is for more hit points. Rage already lasts a good amount of time, so I'm not worried about that.
The Living Construct immunities are very nice, but knowing how a DM thinks, the vulnerabilities are going to come into play at some point.
Also, Dragonborn doesn't really work thematically with the build, as, ostensibly, the power a hellfire warlock gets is from fiends, and Dragonborn are committed to battling the fiends. It could work in that sense of "I'm going to use their own power against them!" kind of way, but if my character ever turns evil, it's going to be left without all that dragon-y goodness.
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But also -4 to Cha, hurting UMD. The skill bonus item helps offset this, of course.
Really, the only reason to have a huge Con is for more hit points. Rage already lasts a good amount of time, so I'm not worried about that.
The Living Construct immunities are very nice, but knowing how a DM thinks, the vulnerabilities are going to come into play at some point.
Also, Dragonborn doesn't really work thematically with the build, as, ostensibly, the power a hellfire warlock gets is from fiends, and Dragonborn are committed to battling the fiends. It could work in that sense of "I'm going to use their own power against them!" kind of way, but if my character ever turns evil, it's going to be left without all that dragon-y goodness.
And 2d6 points of damage per character level when it happens.
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Unless there's some miracle race with LA 0, good con, and awesome abilities that I'm unaware of.
Gold dwarf (as PHB but +2 Con, -2 Dex), earth dwarf, water halfling, water orc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm).
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Again, it's not just about the con, but it helps. I know what races get con boosts, but Warforged have several unique properties, and despite the fact that I'm going to be on the lookout for rust monsters at every turn, the immunities are usually pretty worthwhile.
Now, if you were to specifically recommend those races over warforged, that's another matter.
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Rage Casting (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Rage_Casting,all) :)
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While that would help me in using wands and such in combat, everything else pertains to spells, and would require one feat which is only semi-useful, another which doesn't work for me at all, and 5 skill ranks in concentration, which I can't afford unless I can get more points in Int or take Open Minded, which I already had to take once so far to qualify for PrC's and Leap Attack (not enough skill points for Intimidate, Spellcraft, UMD, Kn: the Planes, AND Jump). I could, of course, nix Leap Attack, though it will somewhat limit my damage-dealing. Was going to use it in conjunction with Combat Brute/Shock Trooper as usual.
Hmm... also, Fell Flight is useful for many situations, but not as good as wings since it doesn't also give that +10 bonus on jump checks. Flight would be limited to occasional mobility, avoiding the need to make most balance checks, etc. No matter what, one of my Lesser invocations needs to be either Brimstone Blast or Hellrime Blast, to qualify for hellfire warlock. No word on whether trading it out later (after getting into the PrC) as usual for Warlock invocations would nullify the PrC access, though.
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You might be able to use eldritch blast with that feat through one of those... boosting... rod things.
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Quicken Spell-Like Ability might work if SiFir allows that instead of Quicken Spell, but that's still only 3/day so not really worth it.
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Also, my EB is considered Su thanks to Supernatural Transformation, cleared by Sinfire. So Meta-SLA feats won't apply to it anymore, and I really don't have any other powers yet that I need to use in combat or that need metamagic-type effects. Not yet.
It's definitely good to consider if I ever get to do a Gestalt Barbarian/spellcaster, but for now there are too many pre-reqs to be viable in the build.
So far, for feats, I've got:
b) Heroic Spirit
f) Mithral Body
f) Power Attack
1) Supernatural Transformation
3) Open Minded
6) Leap Attack
And all 5 points from Open Minded had to be put into Jump for Leap Attack. I'm still not sure it's the best way to go (afterall, jumping is a moot point when you can fly), as I could just nix those and put in Improved Bullrush/Sunder and Shock Trooper/Combat Brute. Not to mention, while it's not generally the greatest feat expenditure, Instantaneous Rage could help keep me from getting caught with my robo-pants down, since so many of my barbarian abilities activate or improve while raging. :D
Also, with limited pretzel-moneys, is a wand sheath worthwhile? What wand would be best to put in there? I will not have nearly enough money to buy wands for all the spells I could want. :D
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Well, if you buy wands, a wand of repair might be nice, since natural healing is only half effective. potentially put in buffs like haste, or debuffs like slow...
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Wands are going to have to mainly be out of combat buffs and utility spells. Can't cast while in a rage, which is why that Rage Casting feat could be nice, but I can't afford the prereqs in the build.
I might be able to use a wand hidden in a wand sheath, as the entry under warforged components says it can be activated "simply by pointing a finger and thinking about activating it" allowing a character to activate it while silenced or in a grapple, but before that it also says "the character can activate a sheathed wand (assuming the character could activate the wand normally)" which could have two reasonings. One is that since rage makes a character unable to cast spells, it couldn't normally activate it under these circumstances (as though it were holding it rather than using it in the sheath component). The other is that it is simply referring a character's ability to activate wands, whether by being a spellcaster or by using UMD.
To be on the safe side, I'd assume the former, but I'd still secretly hope a DM would rule for the latter. :)
The wand sheath could still be useful, even if it can't be used as desired. If I were to, say, get knocked out and imprisoned, the wand embedded in the sheath has a good chance of not being discovered. Then again, given the tone of the campaign, I'm not sure if that's a concern. Hmm, I'm also going to need to find a way to boost my Int a bit so I don't need to worry about making UMD checks to emulate it. :/
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To be honest, you'd be better off not using Rage+Glaive, as Glaive makes no mention of your Str modifier (or Power Attack). This is a touchy subject; even though I'm fully capable of ruling one way or the other, doing so is a tough descision for me (one side likes to see my players succeed, but the other side feels the Glaive shouldn't apply a Str modifier for a few reasons).
Regarding the use of Strength:
As a Full-round action, you can make a single melee touch attack as if wielding a weapon.
Your attack bonus with a melee weapon is:
Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + size modifier
Strength Bonus
When you hit with a melee or thrown weapon, including a sling, add your Strength modifier to the damage result. A Strength penalty, but not a bonus, applies on attacks made with a bow that is not a composite bow.
So now that we have a pretty good argument that Strength is important, I'll go ahead and recommend the use of Goliath both for the Strength bonus and Racial Sub level which not only gives an additional +2 Str when raging, but also gives you reach, giving you effectively double the reach with your Eldritch Glaive while raging.
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It seems Sinfire has spoken about the lack of str applying to eldritch glaive, though I don't see how it affects the invocation that much except in my case. Usually a Warlock isn't going to have a huge strength, even for a glaivelock. However, there are also few stats or rules given for the eldritch glaive, even if you consider it as being the same as a normal glaive for all intents and purposes. Does it have weight? Can you use feats like Short Haft with it? Is the damage worth it versus using a normal weapon? I suppose the main benefit would be that as a touch attack, you could afford to trade almost all of your attack bonus with it for power attack and still generally be able to hit. Again, normal warlocks have Average BAB, so they need a decent attack bonus if they're going to bother with Power Attack anyway.
The only issue with Goliath is the level adjustment. It's definitely something I've been considering, though.
The down side is there's no LA-buyback, so if I went with Goliath, I'd be stuck without the capability to get to 20th. Unless I can work out something with Sinfire to reduce Goliath to LA 0.
Any more thoughts on if Leap Attack is worth bothering with Open Minded for?
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To be honest, you'd be better off not using Rage+Glaive, as Glaive makes no mention of your Str modifier (or Power Attack). This is a touchy subject; even though I'm fully capable of ruling one way or the other, doing so is a tough descision for me (one side likes to see my players succeed, but the other side feels the Glaive shouldn't apply a Str modifier for a few reasons).
Regarding the use of Strength:
As a Full-round action, you can make a single melee touch attack as if wielding a weapon.
Your attack bonus with a melee weapon is:
Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + size modifier
Strength Bonus
When you hit with a melee or thrown weapon, including a sling, add your Strength modifier to the damage result. A Strength penalty, but not a bonus, applies on attacks made with a bow that is not a composite bow.
So now that we have a pretty good argument that Strength is important, I'll go ahead and recommend the use of Goliath both for the Strength bonus and Racial Sub level which not only gives an additional +2 Str when raging, but also gives you reach, giving you effectively double the reach with your Eldritch Glaive while raging.
The counter-argument:
If you hit, your target is affected as if struck by your eldritch blast
(including any eldritch essence applied to the blast). Unlike
hideous blow (Complete Arcane 134), you cannot combine your
eldritch glaive with damage from a held weapon.
Technically, your EB doesn't apply your Str modifier, and you are holding a glaive when you use this invocation.
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Anyway, my stats feel abysmal with just warforged.
Dragonborn of Bahamut Lolth-Touched Incarnate Construct Warforged Mineral Warrior
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Anyway, my stats feel abysmal with just warforged.
Dragonborn of Bahamut Lolth-Touched Incarnate Construct Warforged Mineral Warrior
I'd shoot first, ask questions later.
In other words, no.
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Well, in reality, my stats are awesome, it's just for this level of power, comparing to other players' stats. Anyway, I'm wondering at this point if it's worth trying to be viable at such differing roles. As it stands, the party in total has changed fairly drastically.
We currently have two Psions, one an egoist and the other still a mystery, a Totemist//Barbarian/etc. natural attack-monster, a Warmage fix//fighter (thug)/paladin/marshal/silverwood-outrider/sandshaper/whoknowswhatelse (basically from what I gather, a blaster who flies around on his flying animal cohort).
So, we've got a blaster, a close-combat melee-er, and I'm not entirely sure what roles the two psions fill, exactly. And, at some point in the future, this group and the 'evil' group will meet up, either to wage battle or to join together. I suppose that depends on the characters and plot at the time. My character was originally conceived of as being on the evil team, but as that filled up I had to fit my character on the good team. So, he's pretty much just barely not evil. ;)
I still really like the idea of barbarian//warlock/hellfire warlock (really good blasting, UMD, nifty SLA's), but should I be trying to fill some other role?
This barbarian fix makes it a pretty good melee class, with great tanking abilities. Having Warlock helps fill in some blank areas, power-wise, such as the typical barbarian's inability to fly, or be effective at range. But are there other things I should be worrying about? So far, it seems like at lower and mid-levels, I'll be focusing on melee, but at higher levels when I start in with hellfire warlock and legacy champion, I'd be stupid not to use hellfire blast more often. At this point, the build switches focuses from a Barbarian with arcane powers to an arcanist brick ...house. Nowhere near as versatile in power selection as a wizard, of course, but more naturally able to take a hit.
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Well, it is an interesting niche. similar to an eldritch knight, but... not as bad. I would stick with it, but Barb/Warlock isn't the most synergetical. Maybe find a way to reduce MAD, so you don't need to focus on Con, Str, Cha, Dex a lil' bit. Maybe Sinfire knows of a Cha based Fighter class? (Battle Dancer, from the Dragon Compendium, gets Cha to AC at 2nd level... I dunno other specifics, but that don't look too bad.
The problem with your stats is that with 43 point buy, a 32 buys 2 18's. for any caster, that is a primary casting stat+con. for you, your casting stat is CHA, but how much more important is it? you have more MAD than probably any other character. Mine is Str/Con, maybe Dex. it ain't bad.
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Well, with the way my character is currently set up, his stats are Str 18, Dex 14, Con 20, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 10. Charisma for Warlocks is only useful if using abilities against other creatures, since it affects their save DCs, and couple powers' abilities (like Dark One's Own Luck, which gives a bonus to saves = Cha mod). So, my MAD gets reduced to Str/Con and Dex-minor. Still, Cha would help me be party face (I'm currently configured to partially fill this, taking Beguiling Influence, and of course this fits thematically with Naberius as my one essential vestige).
I've gone with other race and template combos which loosen my PB a bit. Obviously Dragonborn + any con-boosting race is great, but again, Dragonborn requires being non-evil. Hellbred might be thematically pretty cool, but they're also essentially anti-evil. Goliath, or any template, adds level adjustment.
Warforged has a boost to con, and a bunch of immunities (which are relatively balanced out by vulnerabilities and half-healing), is what I'm currently going with, but I'm not stuck on it.
Right now, the character's abilities and projected abilities make him fit reduced melee and ranged niches, but primarily it works out to be an odd sort of tank. It's got ridiculously low AC when raging, but its major abilities require him to be the center of attention. He gets a bunch of temporary hit points which refresh by round, damage reduction to slightly reduce that on melee attacks, and eventually Hellfire Shield, which hit anyone who directs an attack against me with massive auto-damage. If someone hits me, I barely feel it, and they get to regret it. If they don't hit me, I'll just keep wailing on them, and they'll still regret it. The only thing is the build isn't nearly as effective against what a caster can do to it. Energy/area/etc effects like breath weapons and spells bypass damage reduction, and aren't melee so they don't take a backlash on the hellfire shield.
On the plus side, I get mettle while I rage, immunity to fear and confusion effects while raging, plus a boost to will saves, which thanks to gestalt is a good save. I'm vulnerable to reflex saves, though my Dex is mediocre as opposed to bad, so it's not so terrible (just not good). Warlock 10 gives energy resistance 5 to two types, and hellfire warlock gives fire resist 10, so that's 3 energy types to have limited resistance to.
If I stay with Warforged, I'll be immune to poison, sleep, paralysis, disease, nausea, fatigue, exhaustion, the sickened condition, and energy drain, all for free without worrying about needing spells or items to grant these immunities. That covers several non-damage effects of spells, though clearly not all of them. Almost everything else gets helped by mettle and later, improved mettle. The downsides, however, have already been mentioned (not to mention the penalty to wis and cha).
Again, I know Barbarian//DfA synergizes better, but that's a combo you essentially take all the way to 20 on both sides. It has fewer options for invocations, though several of them are similar to warlock's only better, such as Draconic Knowledge versus Otherwordly Whispers (+6 to all knowledge, not just Arcana/Religion/ThePlanes, and make them untrained to boot). However, no access to hellfire warlock means no hellfire blast, hellfire shield. Not a terrible waste, as I could always go Barbarian 20//DfA 6/Warshaper 4/something-something 10, but that fills a bit of a different niche altogether, and loses access to Rage while Humanoid Shaped. Certainly interesting in its own right, but I don't want to step on the Totemist's natural-attacking role, and losing rage means losing almost all of my main class features while changed.
I think some of my hesitance will be solved by making a final decision on Race, feats, and equipment.
For feats, there's only one I absolutely need, which is Supernatural Transformation for the Warlock's Eldritch Blast.
Equipement, I've definitely got a UMD-boosting item. 2500gp for a +5 bonus. 2000 for heward's handy haversack, potentially. 4000 for each stat boosting item I decide to take. Still wondering if a wandsheath is a good investment for a warforged, but I'm not set on Warforged still. Which of course brings me to wands. :/
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Totemist's natural-attacking role,
I wouldn't worry about that. My natural attacking monster won't be too worried about it.
Good job on reducing MAD, although i like a couple of the invocations with saves...
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I'd say I'm RAD- having Reduced Attribute Dependency, but the 80s and early 90s are over. :D
I still can't just dump any score except wis. Dex still needs to be moderate in case I ever need to use my eldritch blast, and in the higher levels, I'll be using it much more. Cha needs to at least have no penalty, since I plan on using UMD, or being able to. I need at least 10 int to be able to get enough skill ranks for PrC pre-reqs, the more the better.
More on Cha, I won't be selecting any eldritch essences except for either brimstone or hellrime blast, because selecting one is necessary for entry into Hellfire Warlock. I'd just as soon not waste a lesser invocation on either of those, though I suppose they have their occasional uses. I still need to ask Sinfire directly if I can swap that invocation out after entering Hellfire warlock, as warlocks can do so at certain levels naturally. I'd hate to think entering Hellfire warlock binds you to having Brimstone blast when your Hellfire blast already burns hotter than any flame. :lmao
Since my Cha is still relatively low, should I bother with Beguiling Influence? I don't think any of the party members has a good Cha either, nor really any ranks in social skills. It also works well thematically with Naberius's focus on diplomacy and deception, though I really don't have the stats to back it up. It'd be our only choice, really, unless someone else has a good Cha and the skills to back it up.
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Hmm, I was just able to shift some points around, and get some more skills points and a tiny bit of charisma. No more need for Open Minded, and with Beguiling Influence I could be a passable party face, though not nearly as good as a full warlock. I'd still rather not have to use the invocation on Beguiling Influence if I can otherwise avoid it, but it's doable.
The other two least invo's I've got right now are See the Unseen and Baleful Utterance. Can't use baleful utterance while raging right now, unless I take another feat, so I'm not set in stone on it. It just seems really fun, especially out of combat.
"I'm sorry sir, I can't let you in. Good day." *shuts door*
*Baleful Utterance, door shatters*
"Why yes sir, come right on in, can I get you some tea, sir?"
Still, it has limits, especially the Rage thing, so I could swap it out.
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I think I'll quickly note that Stand Still (EPH/SRD) is an excellent defensive/control option for a Glaivelock.
Least Invocations
Baleful Utterance - Endlessly amusing with unexpected utility.
Earthen Grasp - A "screw the caster" option for early/early middle levels. Use the Spell Compendium version, which does not provoke AoOs.
Eldritch Glaive - Duh.
Entropic Warding - Dead average. Don't settle for anything less than this. It's nice, but it's also passive so it's not an "option button".
See the Unseen - I have yet to play a Warlock without this invocation. Things you can't see CAN hurt you, and you don't want that.
Summon Swarm - Stupidly good at very low levels thanks to wounding from one of the swarms, plus Distraction. This is usually the invocation swapped at level 6.
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So, with the changes I've made, I can actually prove to be a rather effective party face, with Bluff +16, Diplomacy +12, Intimidate +15, thanks to some bonus skill points, skill synergies, and of course our good friend "Beguiling Influence" :)
I've also got Instantaneous Rage in the build currently, partially as a placeholder, but it would be nice to include it in the build if there's room. As I mentioned before, having the chance to react immediately should I get surprised could be a life-saver. (What's that? Surprise fear effect? *Rage!* Immune to Fear now, sorry. :D)
Right now I'm trying to concentrate on equipment. I know I don't really need the bonus to UMD item as much anymore, and won't at higher levels, thanks to Deceive Item, but it's nice to have. For 2500 gp to gain +5, it's not insanely expensive either. To make my current build work the way I need it to, an Amulet of Health (or similar item, regardless of body slot) is integral. And in order to insure my saving throws are decent, I've got a vest of Resistance +2. If I go with these items, my total wealth spent comes to 10500/19000. I could scratch the +2 vest for a +1 and not lose too much sleep, though, since two of my saves get boosts while raging.
I should probably also enchant my armor plating, and a weapon would be nice. Wow, this money isn't stretching very far. :D
Regarding weapon, I could technically use Eldritch Glaive, as I have pounce and thus could use it in a charge. The issue at hand seems to be that I can't use my strength bonus on it (though I could still apply power attack bonus and multiply that with feats like Leap Attack and Combat Brute). I'm likely going to want one or two other weapons anyway, though I'm not sure. At this level, I've got an eldritch blast of 3d6 damage, which applied with glaive and unmodified by power attack would yield an average of about 10-11 damage. A metal glaive is 1d10, plus 1.5xstr while raging (9), yielding 14-15 damage on average. There is a difference of about 4 points right now, which isn't much. One more level of warlock will make my eldritch blast 4d6, or 14 average damage. The discrepancy disappears (or, just about, since this doesn't take into account magic weapon enhancements, or alternate weapons such as greatsword- A +2 Greatsword with a weapon augment crystal for energy could deal an average of 21-22 damage, still higher than that 4d6 eldritch blast next level). And of course, once I get Hellfire blast, the possibilities of my strength bonus making much of a dent in the difference between a normal glaive and a Hellfire Glaive are unlikely. Though, at that level it may make more sense to use a chain or cone Hellfire blast, to hit more enemies at once.
The downside, it seems, would be the lack of other enhancements to weaponry. You can't apply ghost-touch to an eldritch blast, for instance, so it's still likely to only deal half damage to incorporeal creatures.
I like my current selection of least invocations-Beguiling Influence, Baleful Utterance, and See the Unseen. I'm not sure which one I could really part with to get Eldritch Glaive, so I'd probably be taking Extra invocation at some point to get it. Could do so now, even, giving up Instantaneous Rage... Hmm...
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Seeing as how EG doesn't begin overtaking a Greatsword in damage potential for a couple of levels, I think I'll go with a regular weapon for now, and either trade out one of my least invocations at a later level, pick up Extra Invocation, or something. Sinfire said he may reward my character with extra invocations in-game depending on circumstances, so hopefully that may help mitigate the low amount of invocations normal warlocks get. RobbyPants's warlock fix gives one per level, but that would mean swapping my tier 3 barbarian for a tier 3 warlock, and I can't really do that. So this is the best way right now.
There is, of course, the Codex Advocare, but that is crazy expensive at this level and, I'm sure, difficult to obtain.
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Hmm, also, I don't really need to bind Naberius until I get into Hellfire warlock. Wonder if there are any 1st level vestiges that are worth binding in the mean-time. >_>
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So, given that I'll be starting out with regular weaponry, how in-depth should I be in purchasing it? I figure I should at least get a +1 Greatsword, but should I bother with any enchantments or weapon augment crystals? I may also want to keep a bludgeoning weapon around just in case as well; my slam attack counts, but doesn't pack much of a punch. Should I consider a battlefist, or not bother? Also, I figure adding Blueshine to my mithral plating helps alleviate the worry of coming up against, say, a rust monster, since techincally all my metal parts are now immune to acid and rust effects (though I, as a whole creature, am not immune to acid).
Spending well on weapons is good, being a barbarian, but leaves less room for protective gear and out-of-combat-useful wands/scrolls.
Speaking of spell-completion/trigger items, anyone know off-hand any low level long-lasting buffs? Low levels aren't well-known for long-lasting anything, I know, but wands don't always have high caster levels to compensate (and if they do, they're much more expensive). Maybe I should rather look for utility over buffs (and of course, a couple Repair Damage wands/scrolls).
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Hmm, also, I don't really need to bind Naberius until I get into Hellfire warlock. Wonder if there are any 1st level vestiges that are worth binding in the mean-time. >_>
Did you take Improved Binding? If so, Malphas is incredible, just for the bird.
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RobbyPants's warlock fix gives one per level, but that would mean swapping my tier 3 barbarian for a tier 3 warlock, and I can't really do that...
Actually, RobbyPants's Warlock also has 1d6 EB per level and it even has more DR. The DR is 2 at 2nd + 2 per 4 levels giving you DR 4/Cold Iron at 6th and 6d6 EB at 6th too...EB 7d6 at 7th... (Avg EB damage at 6th is 21, then avg 24-25 at 7th)
So, while I freely admit that I haven't read this entire thread, using the better warlock may be the way to go...sort of cake+eaty bits. What exactly is it that you're getting better from the tier 3 Barbarian that the tier 4 wouldn't give to offset 1d6 EB per level?
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Hmm, also, I don't really need to bind Naberius until I get into Hellfire warlock. Wonder if there are any 1st level vestiges that are worth binding in the mean-time. >_>
Did you take Improved Binding? If so, Malphas is incredible, just for the bird.
I didn't, but I've technically got room for it. The issue is that I'd only be using it for a couple of levels until I hit hellfire warlock, then it's Naberius 24/7 unless I want to take con damage (I don't). Don't think I didn't consider Binder 20//Warlock 11/Hellfire Warlock 3/Legacy Champion 6 and similar builds, because I did. :D
RobbyPants's warlock fix gives one per level, but that would mean swapping my tier 3 barbarian for a tier 3 warlock, and I can't really do that...
Actually, RobbyPants's Warlock also has 1d6 EB per level and it even has more DR. The DR is 2 at 2nd + 2 per 4 levels giving you DR 4/Cold Iron at 6th and 6d6 EB at 6th too...EB 7d6 at 7th... (Avg EB damage at 6th is 21, then avg 24-25 at 7th)
So, while I freely admit that I haven't read this entire thread, using the better warlock may be the way to go...sort of cake+eaty bits. What exactly is it that you're getting better from the tier 3 Barbarian that the tier 4 wouldn't give to offset 1d6 EB per level?
1) We've already got a blaster-type spellcaster (Prime32 using his Warmage Fix)
2) The Barbarian gets THP = 2x class level renewing each round, which can help offset a huge amount of damage. This increases to 3x class level at 9th level, and 4x class level at 18th.
3) The damage reduction provided by barbarian levels is doubled during a range, so at 7th level the 1/- is actually 2/- in a rage, etc. (I could actually exploit this with feats which improve existing DR, adding to the barb DR, but that's more feats).
4) Free pounce ability at level 6 without giving up fast movement
5) Rage 1/encounter (rather than x/day)
6) Mettle and Fear Immunity while Raging, eventually Improved Mettle (like Improved Evasion)
etc.
For reference, while raging at the beginning of this campaign, my character is not only immune to fear effects (a significant portion of will save effects), he reduces melee damage by 2, shrugs off 14 damage each round, and can generally wreak bloody havoc.
Now, a warlock can use wands and such to gain THP from some sources, but not generally anywhere as much, and can't function as a tank in any situation. Even when my barbarian hits the transitionary point and has EB/HfB damage far outweighing his melee potential, he still has the THP and immunities/resistances and can shrug almost anything off. He may be more vulnerable to attacks than he should be, but it seems like focusing on his AC would just be avoiding the inevitable.
Now, the other argument is that going with RP's warlock means more SLA's, and far, far better blasting (34d6 damage at 20th level instead of my build's 24d6). And since Sinfire's willing to work with me to create new Invocations, that means several interesting uses for those.
However, I still wouldn't get all that DR, since that's a class feature and the Hellfire Warlock and Legacy Champion stuff would have to be on the Warlock side in order to be effective. They would still work, but parts would be redundant and thus not much better. I wouldn't get double invocations in a level I had Warlock//Hellfire Warlock, nor would Hellfire warlock advance Eldritch Blast at that level. All I'd get, essentially, would be the 2d6 of hellfire blast, which isn't anything to sneeze at, sure, but not as awesome as the alternative.
I'd definitely be willing to explore the potential of making a warlock-primary build, but I don't want to unbalance the party in favor of blasters.
Hmm... If only Binder were tier 4... :lmao
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I didn't, but I've technically got room for it. The issue is that I'd only be using it for a couple of levels until I hit hellfire warlock, then it's Naberius 24/7 unless I want to take con damage (I don't). Don't think I didn't consider Binder 20//Warlock 11/Hellfire Warlock 3/Legacy Champion 6 and similar builds, because I did. :D
Buy a Vestige Phylactery. You can use it to swap out your vestige. Bind Malphus for scouting, and then swap in Naberius when the fit hits the shan.
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I had forgotten about that. Thanks! :D (edit: Hmm, can't afford it yet, but maybe will find it among treasure later or be able to afford it then; Though, can't simply swap between two vestiges at will, only one switch per day, so it's got to count, but still a nice find nonetheless).
Anyway, as for my build it's still worthwhile to make sure I have full BAB, or near it, for using with eldritch glaive. A normal, optimized, pouncing barbarian could output more damage in a charging round than a regular hellfire warlock with one 34d6 blast, assuming all attacks managed to hit (the damage would be about the same if you assume half the attacks hit, or less if you assume only one hit). Four hellfire blasts in a round, though, are always better than one, and 34d6 is always better than 24d6. :)
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Though, there's something to be said for a blaster that simply can't be hit. Like a gnat you can't get rid of. :P
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So, I'm heavily considering another avenue, based on Robby's Warlock fix, rather than basing it off of the Barbarian fix. We've already got a melee combatant in the Totem Rager, as it is. Besides, if the build is going to figure heavily on blasting and eldritch glaive later in levels anyway, I may as well embrace it.
The Hf Warlock, Binder, and Legacy Champion levels are pretty much set. No need to change them, really.
(Blurg, Wall of Text)
[spoiler]Now, if I keep the Warlock fix on the multiclassing side of the gestalt, I'll still get 18/20 levels of eldritch blast and invocations. This will bring the total blast to 34d6 at 20th level. If, on the other hand, I make it the secondary class, going Warlock 20, the Hf blast will be 36d6, I'll get two more invocations, and up to the full 10/cold iron DR, not to mention the very nice Imbue Item feature. Then there's 11 levels open on the other side, but advancing Hellfire Warlock as normal and through LC has slightly less pay-off, since Warlock levels would already be at full progression. I wouldn't, for instance, get at a particular level double the eldritch blast and invocations, but it would still advance the hellfire blast damage, which is really the main point to begin with, so not a complete waste. However, that does mess with BAB progression, or at least make it messier, among other things.
On the other side, I originally considered going with Rogue, for a few semi-decent class features and Sneak Attack. It makes for a very nice skillmonkey, too, but ends up being squishy and spreading those delicious skill points out among everything I need made things less than amazing.
Hexblade seemed like a pretty synergistic class, as it's heavily based on Charisma as well. But the class as it is just isn't worth it, and doesn't get me the skill points I want; any fixes to the class would bump it up a tier and make the whole point moot.
Scout is nice, though, as it gets a good amount of skills, skirmish damage, a couple bonus feats, fast movement, etc. Save this idea.
Ranger is also nice, getting the same HD as scout, though fewer skills. It does, however, get spellcasting, but I can't afford to put the points in Wisdom without getting MAD. I could at least get an item to boost Wis, if need-be, and just focus on buffs that don't rely on wis mod. The combat style trees don't help me at all (Improved Precise Shot at combat mastery is nice, but everything else in the archery line is worthless toward Eldritch Blast; Two-Weapon Fighting won't help, unless I wanted to qualify for the Dual Wand Wielder feat.) Too bad there's only one option for switching out the combat style for something else, and it's banned from this game, besides being a tier higher (shapeshift variant ranger). The options for getting rid of spellcasting aren't really worth being less MAD, since Spell-less ranger from CW is pretty gimpy, and the one from CC would be decent, as there are a couple ok feat I might want anyway, but doesn't really size up to spellcasting, plus I'd still have to use UMD to cast spells from the list (not a problem, but still an annoyance).
Still, full BAB, d8 HD, decent skill points, gestalting means all good saves, favored enemy is nice (Arcanists and Humans/Undead/Constructs might be good in Sharn), and then there's the animal companion. I think the Urban Companion is not only more flavorful for my character, but also less of a headache to keep track of. I'm still seeing if I can apply Improved Familiar to it to make the feature really shine, and if so, how I can boost my effective caster level to determine how good a creature I can get. Depending on how I construct the build, and if Warlock caster level works and can stack with the Ranger, even gestalt-wise, an Imp Urban Companion could do wonders. The other lower level ones aren't too shabby either, and even the benefits of a normal Urban Companion aren't too bad, either (don't have to worry about it dying and losing XP!). Bind Malphas, and have two Raven familiars fly around for me? Fun times.[/spoiler]
I'm also pretty sure I want to go with Whisper Gnome on this one. Definitely works with the stealthy infiltrator idea. Moving away from warforged means no more 'free' armor, but I'm not too worried about that.
Any thoughts on if it's worth making (fixed) Warlock the full-level side or the multiclass side? Are 2d6 and two extra invocations (on a class already getting more than the normal warlock) worth it? Is Imbue Item worth it? It would mean using several of my feats on item creation feats, so I'm thinking no, though maybe in another campaign.
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Hexblade seemed like a pretty synergistic class, as it's heavily based on Charisma as well. But the class as it is just isn't worth it, and doesn't get me the skill points I want; any fixes to the class would bump it up a tier and make the whole point moot.
One idea would be to use my Hexblade fix (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1972.0) beside the unmodified Warlock, as then you get a number of useful tricks to work with (the auras, more invocations, and even actual spells). This has the advantage of opening up PrCs that wouldn't normally advance your invocations without losing out. The Hexblade's invocations can be forgone easily, as you can just restrict them to personal buffs.
Warlock 20//Crusader 2/Hexblade 5/JPM (or Darkwyrm invoker, if I finish the capstone soon enough) 5/Abjurant Champion 5/Hexblade +3= Massive amounts of usefulness.
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Hmm, I'll look into this (though, the more options I'm presented with, the longer it takes to finalize a build :p)
As a side note, would it be worth more to have the crusader's better hit points at first level, or the option of somewhat higher maneuver choices by going Hexblade 5/Crusader 2/etc.? Maybe a slightly different comination, depending. Oh, and also I'd hate to decide to be either Chaotic Good or Chaotic Evil, given alignment restrictions. I was hoping to maintain the morally ambiguous nature at the least, but there is room for change (or continuous nondetection effects, if necessary :devil)
Regardless, I'll take a look and see how this fits together, where it fits into the party and the campaign in general, and otherwise how it looks to play.
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Hmm, I'll look into this (though, the more options I'm presented with, the longer it takes to finalize a build :p)
As a side note, would it be worth more to have the crusader's better hit points at first level, or the option of somewhat higher maneuver choices by going Hexblade 5/Crusader 2/etc.? Maybe a slightly different comination, depending. Oh, and also I'd hate to decide to be either Chaotic Good or Chaotic Evil, given alignment restrictions. I was hoping to maintain the morally ambiguous nature at the least, but there is room for change (or continuous nondetection effects, if necessary :devil)
Regardless, I'll take a look and see how this fits together, where it fits into the party and the campaign in general, and otherwise how it looks to play.
Well, the Warlock has no actual alignment restrictions, and my Hexblade only recommends the non-Good alignments for flavor reasons.
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Well, if you go by the book, the Warlock has alignment restrictions of "Any evil or any chaotic" but if you're waiving that, then obviously there are none.
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Also, just for the record, what was your ruling on that last PM I sent you, about the urban companion?
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So, taking a fairly thorough look at what is presented, it looks like that combo is a rather good partial-gestalt Gish, with a handful of low to mid level maneuvers, some decent invocations, and just barely getting 5th level spells by 20th level. Still, despite this, I'm not sure it's what I'm looking for.
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Also, just for the record, what was your ruling on that last PM I sent you, about the urban companion?
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I said I would be willing to work on a variant of the Ranger's animal companion that was similar to a familiar/AC hybrid.
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Also, just for the record, what was your ruling on that last PM I sent you, about the urban companion?
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I said I would be willing to work on a variant of the Ranger's animal companion that was similar to a familiar/AC hybrid.
Sorry, I didn't get any reply.
Anyway, the Urban Companion is already a hybrid of the two. You essentially get an animal off the familiar list, using the wiz/sorc advancement list, except the urban companion gets HP = 3/4 the druid/ranger's instead of half a wiz/sorc, can speak with others of its kind at 1st instead of 7th level, the druid/ranger can speak with animals of the uc's type at 7th, and if it dies, the master doesn't lose XP. It's a smarter creature, rather than a strong one, which serves me a bit better anyway.
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So, I seem to be settled on the nice synergy of fixed Warlock and Spellthief, thanks to Sinfire's suggestions.
What I'm not sure of is if it's worth taking Point Blank and Precise Shot as feats. The warlock handbook offers two varying opinions on this. On the one hand, it should be just as useful to a warlock as to a ranger. On the other, the warlock's attacks are ranged touch attacks, so is the penalty for shooting into combat going to matter as much? The feats will only get less useful as I increase in level, as most creatures are still going to have lower touch ACs (though not all will).
So is it worth giving up two feats?
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Bump. Don't want to leave the game hanging on me, and I was hoping for a little insight on the whole Point blank shot/precise shot thing.
Also, I'm thinking of taking Obtain/Improved Familiar, probably for an imp, so I can have it help with scouting, utilize UMD in combat for me, etc. It won't be able to take 10 on UMD checks like I can, but it can still be useful for freeing up actions.
I'm somewhat saddened to lose the fantastic save bonuses and hitpoints from the ranger gestalting, and the potential for an urban companion instead of animal companion/familiar, but this combo will be more synergistic and gives some nice abilities. Plus, Sinfire's allowing it to work with psionics in a way, so I'll be able to share powers/spells with the one or two psions and the warmage, sometimes.
Maybe he'll still let me obtain an urban companion, given both the feats Obtain Familiar/Wild Cohort, though it seems as though it would be more powerful than Obtain Familiar, and thus not necessarily a good candidate for becoming a feat.
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I decided I liked the idea of the familiar, so I'm going to have a Quasit (since I can't get an imp due to my alignment). Any suggestions for the Alternate form ability? For reference, it gets Alternate Form as supernatural ability usable at will as a standard action, which functions as polymorph cast on itself (CL 12) except it doesn't regain HP and can only assume one or two forms of up to medium size.
The size limitation, I'd say, keeps it from being completely broken, but there are a lot of forms that could be useful. Obviously it doesn't get Su or Sp abilities of its assumed forms, but it does keep its own. It's already a tiny creature, so I probably don't need anything smaller than its normal size for stealth/scouting. Obvious choices would be something I could ride as a mount, or a combat form, though since it won't have many hit points I don't think sending it into combat is a smart move. Maybe a defensive form, or humanoid?
Also, Alternate Form (and polymorph, for that matter) stipulates that you lose your old natural armor bonus in exchange for the new one. However, you keep qualities gained from class levels, so am I right in assuming the natural armor improvement from being a familiar is retained?
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Wouldn't it be limited to 3 HD forms, because Polymorph uses CL or HD, whichever is less?
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I'm not entirely sure what the limitations are, but technically the familiar's HD are equal to my Character Level for purposes of spells and effects dependent on HD. So, that technically limits it to 6 or 7 HD, though it may still be 3 depending on the interpretation. Can it choose one or two new forms when it gains HD, replacing the old ones? I'm not sure.
Otherwise, that's still 3HD, and there are still several creatures to choose from.
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Could you improve that with Practiced Spellcaster?
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My caster level is already 7 (or more? from a convo with Sinfire) thanks to a special houseruled Master Spellthief feat. Practiced spellcaster doesn't improve it above your own HD. I said 6 or 7 because I'm not sure what level would count as the one I got the familiar at, and if that has any bearing on the limit of HD it can assume, or if it's based on its base abilities pre-familiarization.
If it is 3HD, I could see if a variant of natural bond could increase it, but really, what are the big differences here?
If its Alternate Form ability worked exactly like polymorph, it wouldn't matter, but it specifically states it can only assume one or two forms. This means one or two forms, and that's it, probably forever. The exact specifics are kind of fuzzy.
I guess I might need to ask Sinfire for a ruling on what to base AF's HD cap on before I figure out what I can select. In the mean-time, any suggestions of 1-7HD forms? Quasits are outsiders, so that gets opened up as well. \o/
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Instead of spending two feats on an Improved familiar, which may or may not have alternative alternate forms open to it (based on PM to Sinfire), should I just go with Leadership and have a spellcaster cohort? XD
I could steal spells from them freely, and I don't lose XP if they die. Or, I could try to get a monstrous cohort if need-be. :D
Still, quasit has flight and invisibility at will and can scout for me. Decisions, decisions. >_>
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So, I'm going to go with Leadership, effectively giving me a spell-battery so I have a dedicated source of spell-stealing, when we're going up against non-spellcasters anyway. The Cohort could be anything, and if I've got things right, I should have a 5th level cohort and 5 1st level followers. I'm thinking three Buomman Adepts with Nonverbal Spell, and two Gray Elf Magewrights with Precocious Apprentice. Ability scores won't be amazing, assuming elite array for the cohort and non-elite array for followers, as per this page (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#abilityScoreArrays) (creatures with PC classes are suggested to have the elite array, while creatures with NPC classes are suggested to have the nonelite array), but should be passable. Alternatively, I could have them all be Experts and have an army of skill-monkeys. :D
As for the cohort, the most likely choices are Wizard, Cleric, or Druid (which would be like having a spell-battery AND an animal companion! :D). The party is likely to have an artificer now, so I don't need to have one following me around. Alternatively, I could have a monstrous cohort with hit dice and LA if there's anything worthwhile with good SLA's or other abilities.
Are there any dedicated threads about Leadership/Cohorts/followers? I've done a little digging, but I'm not coming up with much.
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So, I'm going to go with Leadership, effectively giving me a spell-battery so I have a dedicated source of spell-stealing, when we're going up against non-spellcasters anyway. The Cohort could be anything, and if I've got things right, I should have a 5th level cohort and 5 1st level followers. I'm thinking three Buomman Adepts with Nonverbal Spell, and two Gray Elf Magewrights with Precocious Apprentice. Ability scores won't be amazing, assuming elite array for the cohort and non-elite array for followers, as per this page (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#abilityScoreArrays) (creatures with PC classes are suggested to have the elite array, while creatures with NPC classes are suggested to have the nonelite array), but should be passable. Alternatively, I could have them all be Experts and have an army of skill-monkeys. :D
As for the cohort, the most likely choices are Wizard, Cleric, or Druid (which would be like having a spell-battery AND an animal companion! :D). The party is likely to have an artificer now, so I don't need to have one following me around. Alternatively, I could have a monstrous cohort with hit dice and LA if there's anything worthwhile with good SLA's or other abilities.
Are there any dedicated threads about Leadership/Cohorts/followers? I've done a little digging, but I'm not coming up with much.
I do have one request for you: Don't chain Leadership. It gets a bit ridiculous, and I may have to collapse the rest of Sharn if you do.
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No worries, even I think chaining Leadership is a bad idea (not to mention a bad investment overall- Sure you get a ton of people following you around, but they're more than a little squishy.) I could go with all those tips on maximizing Leadership to get higher level followers, but honestly it's not a good investment of resources.
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If you're still taking advice, sprinkle on the Unseelie Fey template.
It's like Parmesan: a cheese that goes on anything.
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Is this advice for the warlock//spellthief, or for the cohort?
Also, not sure how stuff from Dragon magazine/compendium is handled in the game.
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Is this advice for the warlock//spellthief, or for the cohort?
Also, not sure how stuff from Dragon magazine/compendium is handled in the game.
Either. Both. It's the finest of +0 templates, and good rolls can really help a warlock. Spellthief casting is, IIRC, cha based, so you'll be wanting that.
Fey type, -2 str +2 dex -2 con +2cha, vastly improved DR compared to a warlock's, and a massive debuffing of anyone who stands next to you (-cha morale penalty to all saves, 5' radius), chance of wings/vision.
Basically no downside.
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I like the idea of stealing Divine Metamagic Persistant Extended Divine Powers from your cohort on a daily basis via Steal Spell Effect. The spell level is low enough that it should work by the time it becomes viable.
Might as well get Bite of the Werebear, Owl's Insight, Righteous Might... Lower level cohorts could provide Persistant Shields, Wraithstrikes (not that you need it), Heart of X spells, Greater Mage Armor spells... All from the lower level followers, making them worth something. Really dig the idea. Excluding Ocular Spell cheese, might be the only way that works to get Persistant Spells on someone else (RAI and RAW).
Also, Permancied effects could be stolen, too.
I know FR material is out, but would the Godsblood Spelltheft feat be a no-go? (Same source as Font of Inspiration.)
Also, there's a Dragon mag variant that trades in lots of a Spellthief's trapfinding abilities and skills for casting advancement as a Bard (plus, gets to pick Bard spells or normal Spellthief spells). It might be closer to what you are looking for in the character.
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Is this advice for the warlock//spellthief, or for the cohort?
Also, not sure how stuff from Dragon magazine/compendium is handled in the game.
Either. Both. It's the finest of +0 templates, and good rolls can really help a warlock. Spellthief casting is, IIRC, cha based, so you'll be wanting that.
Fey type, -2 str +2 dex -2 con +2cha, vastly improved DR compared to a warlock's, and a massive debuffing of anyone who stands next to you (-cha morale penalty to all saves, 5' radius), chance of wings/vision.
Basically no downside.
Well, except that there's no chance Sinfire'd allow it as a 0LA template. :P
Regardless, added onto Whisper Gnome, that comes to a net -4 Str, +4 Dex adjustment to stats. Fey type makes sense with Gnomes, though I'd have to be Chaotic Evil, if I remember correctly. Not that I can't work within that, though I'd probably need to have Nondetection on constantly. :)
I like the idea of stealing Divine Metamagic Persistant Extended Divine Powers from your cohort on a daily basis via Steal Spell Effect. The spell level is low enough that it should work by the time it becomes viable.
Might as well get Bite of the Werebear, Owl's Insight, Righteous Might... Lower level cohorts could provide Persistant Shields, Wraithstrikes (not that you need it), Heart of X spells, Greater Mage Armor spells... All from the lower level followers, making them worth something. Really dig the idea. Excluding Ocular Spell cheese, might be the only way that works to get Persistant Spells on someone else (RAI and RAW).
Also, Permancied effects could be stolen, too.
I know FR material is out, but would the Godsblood Spelltheft feat be a no-go? (Same source as Font of Inspiration.)
Also, there's a Dragon mag variant that trades in lots of a Spellthief's trapfinding abilities and skills for casting advancement as a Bard (plus, gets to pick Bard spells or normal Spellthief spells). It might be closer to what you are looking for in the character.
Any idea on what issue the spellthief variant abilities are from?
Also, I can try to swing Godsblood by Sinfire by justifying it as the fact that it technically is only applyin to the domains offered by those gods, but it's not likely to happen.
I can steal spell effect on a permanencied spell, but it would only last I think a number of rounds/minutes equal to my spellthief level.
Better to have persisted spells cast on me or stolen from a cohort.
So would it be best, for the Cohort, to go Cleric, as opposed to druid or wizard (or even archivist)? Domain access (mmm, anyspell) plus DMM (though I'm positive any related cheese, aka nightstick abuse etc., is out of the question).
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It says always evil, but as everyone knows, in a world with succubus paladins (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20050824a), that always has the caveat of "in groups of three or more, when played by the GM, some restrictions apply, please report to your nearest alignment flamewar for more details".
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Regardless of the alignment thing (which wasn't the issue), it's still a template meant more for creatures, isn't really balanced for what you get (0? Why doesn't everyone take it?), and comes from Dragon Magazine, which may or may not be allowed.
That last bit applies to the Spellthief alternate features (I managed to find the issue, 353, and read the features) as well. Though, I'm not sure if it's worth bothering with losing the skills and trapfinding if I have a ready supply of good spells to take on. It's tempting, surely, and would save yet another feat as well (Master Spellthief would become obsolete).
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Technically, it's not directly from the magazine.
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The Dragon Compendium is still a compilation of material from Dragon Magazine, and counts as a third party source, even with contributions from frequent content developers to WotC. I'm sure Sinfire would be willing to work out a way to make the template workable, as he is with certain level adjusted races, but it's still a bit of a stretch.
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Dragon Compendium is, IIRC, considered to be a 'real' book, rather than part of the magazine.
As for the template, well, the con penalty hurts, and if you don't have a charisma bonus the supernatural abilities aren't useful at all. At low levels you're far more susceptibility to melee damage (extra d6 damage from any iron or steel = ow!) Later on your DR will apply to it (explicitly mentioned), but at low levels you're ridiculously squishy. Since I'd imagine that cold iron weapons count as iron or steel, the weapons that can hurt you will hurt you more, so...
Having the fey type is a bit of a tossup, but for many characters it's a disadvantage.
The most powerful season ability, winter's chill, can't be turned off, so if you have any living nonfey in your party, don't expect them to stand next to you.
And the wings/eyes are, practically speaking, going to be decided on by the DM. And the decision will be "no".
So it's unbalanced, but not quite as bad as it looks. One alteration that makes it more palatable is the DR being changed back from "cold iron" to "iron or steel", which reduces its usefulness considerably. Winter's Chill should be capped at half your level, and the vision/wing upgrades are rolled into some sorta savage progression.
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Is this advice for the warlock//spellthief, or for the cohort?
Also, not sure how stuff from Dragon magazine/compendium is handled in the game.
Dragon Mag needs specific approval to be allowed. I do have the Dragon Compendium, but the Unseelie is just a bit unbalanced (I know I've allowed previously, but I realized since then that it was a mistake to do so). The template just has too many advantages for an LA 0 template. Its something I can work on, but would rather not touch with a Collapsible Pole.
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Unseelie Fey does not list an LA.
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Unseelie Fey does not list an LA.
It actually does, just in a funny place. Check the page before it with the example character.
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Regardless of LA listings and advantages vs. disadvantages and such, the fact remains that it's not worth trying to make work in the game.
Are there any more suggestions for the cohort, such as recommendations on class/race? I can obviously research handbooks for specific classes and such, but again, there aren't a lot of resources on the Leadership feat and optimizing cohorts, since they're mostly just less powerful versions of regular characters.
Also, pertinent equipment? I've factored in a +con item to help boost my HP and avoid being too squishy. I also figured my best armor bet is going to be a mithral chain shirt +1 since it has no ACP and is technically cheaper than a regular Mithral Breastplate. I'd probably eventually move on to the latter, though.
I probably don't need the UMD skill boost item anymore, either, though maybe something minor will be fine. I'll probably also want a backup weapon too, though that's a last resort so I don't need anything fancy.
It would be best to note that my character is small with a poor str, so carrying capacity isn't very high (Heward's handy haversack is probably a good bet to help with that), so I won't be carrying terribly much. However, my cohort and/or followers could, though I'd trust my cohort since he has less of a glaring giant bullseye painted on him. :)
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I like the idea of stealing Divine Metamagic Persistant Extended Divine Powers from your cohort on a daily basis via Steal Spell Effect. The spell level is low enough that it should work by the time it becomes viable.
Looking things over, how exactly is DMM applied? The text provides for two possibilities: Either that you can expend the turn checks to prepare your spells in its normal spell level slot, or that you spend the turn checks upon casting to reduce the spell level adjustment.
The former provides for the fact that prepared casters, such as a cleric, must prepare spells with metamagic to begin with. The latter goes with the example given for DMM, where it says "For example, Jozan the cleric could sacrifice three turn attempts to empower a holy smite he's casting." My emphasis, indicates the sacrifice occurs upon casting, as opposed to upon preparing. However, unless you prepare a metamagic spell in a certain spell-level-slot and end up casting it at its regular slot, it doesn't make sense.
So, does DMM apply at casting or upon preparing? This obviously has a big impact on the usefulness of my cohort for Steal Spell. :O
I'm also currently fussing over what race to go with. I'm thinking a Changeling cloistered cleric with Planning and Transformation domains, with spontaneous domain casting for transformation. Goes well with my sneaky gnome to make up a roguish duo, but lack of stat adjustments is both a blessing and bane (leaving Cha unoptimized and further limiting turn attempts for fueling DMM). Avoiding LA is also good to keep an already low CL from sinking too far, so templates and LA'd races are probably not the best choices. A Petal cleric cohort could have amazing adjustments to the elite array, but I'd only just have access to 2nd level spells to steal, which is kind of limiting at 7th level, though not terrible if it means I can DMM Persist one more spell/day.
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Hey, DMMed persist isn't heighten, so since it doesn't change the spell level, it shouldn't matter, right?
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What I mean is, spells with metamagic applied take up higher level spell slots, and if you're a prepared caster they're prepared in those slots. What I want to know is if DMM applies when you prepare the spell or if it is supposed to be at casting, as indicated in the feat example. For instance, instead of preparing a Persistent Divine Favor in a 7th level slot (1st level spell, +6 effective levels for Persist Spell), one would assume it still gets prepared in the 1st level slot, with the DMM making it Persistent Divine Favor in a 1st level slot, rather than regular Divine Favor. Otherwise you'd be spontaneously applying metamagic, which gets confusing when dealing with prepared spells.
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What I mean is, spells with metamagic applied take up higher level spell slots, and if you're a prepared caster they're prepared in those slots. What I want to know is if DMM applies when you prepare the spell or if it is supposed to be at casting, as indicated in the feat example. For instance, instead of preparing a Persistent Divine Favor in a 7th level slot (1st level spell, +6 effective levels for Persist Spell), one would assume it still gets prepared in the 1st level slot, with the DMM making it Persistent Divine Favor in a 1st level slot, rather than regular Divine Favor. Otherwise you'd be spontaneously applying metamagic, which gets confusing when dealing with prepared spells.
DMM is preped when you prepare the spell, you have to choose to apply DMM Persist while preparing. You spend the turn attempts then, and the feat's cost is reduced to the point that it can be applied. It then remains that way until you cast it, at which point the effects of DMM are lost and the spell is cast (but still only takes up the normal slot).
If you recover the spell through a Pearl of Power or Echo Spell, the effects of DMM do not return and the spell's level becomes what it should have been without DMM. This may put it beyond your ability to cast (especially for spells like Divine Power, which is a 10th level spell when Persisted). You do not recover the lower level spell slot, and spell slots gained above your normal allotment of spells/day fade the next time you are due to prepare spells (in other words, you don't get to keep that 10th level spell slot even if you could cast spells of that level).
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Honestly I was just trying to clear up wording; I hadn't even thought of how it would interact with pearls of power and the like.
I was mainly concerned with the fact that if it was spontaneous and such, my spellthief couldn't steal a persisted spell affected by DMM.
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Honestly I was just trying to clear up wording; I hadn't even thought of how it would interact with pearls of power and the like.
I was mainly concerned with the fact that if it was spontaneous and such, my spellthief couldn't steal a persisted spell affected by DMM.
You can, but the casting time is increased as though you were applying the feat spontaneously.
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So I'm wondering: Was it worthwhile making my cohort a Cloistered Cleric instead of a normal one? As a cohort, it's using the Elite Array, but that still doesn't leave it with terrific ability scores; I figured due to this I'd devote the cohort to being a spell-battery and buffer for my warlock, with some buffs applicable to the party in general. It doesn't have the ability points to devote to constitution or strength, so I figured it couldn't hurt to go Cloistered for the sake of getting some more skill points and all knowledge skills. However, now its even squishier, since it can't wear heavy armor, and if it runs out of spells, which is likely to happen very fast once even one encounter is underway, it can't really survive in combat.
Would I be better off not focusing on Persistent buffs and instead try to make it more generally self-sufficient? Besides the persistent buffs, there's little reason to siphon off most spells from the cleric. I'm wondering if I'd be better off going for a regular cleric, using Shifter (to maintain the Transformation domain). By putting the 12 or 13 into Strength instead of Intelligence, and choosing a Shiter trait with a bonus to Str, the cohort could be a passable battle cleric, especially being able to spontaneously cast Alter Self to gain a good natural armor bonus and such.
I might not even ask, but I'm not really making use of those knowledge skills since I'm not trading the Knowledge domain for Knowledge Devotion, particularly to keep the knowledges as class skills and because it just isn't viable to enter combat or even attack with a ranged weapon yet. It seems I'm trading survivability for rather little, when it comes to a cohort.
Otherwise I'll probably just try my best to keep it alive until next level when it can at least take zen archery. :O
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DMM is preped when you prepare the spell, you have to choose to apply DMM Persist while preparing. You spend the turn attempts then, and the feat's cost is reduced to the point that it can be applied. It then remains that way until you cast it, at which point the effects of DMM are lost and the spell is cast (but still only takes up the normal slot).
If you recover the spell through a Pearl of Power or Echo Spell, the effects of DMM do not return and the spell's level becomes what it should have been without DMM. This may put it beyond your ability to cast (especially for spells like Divine Power, which is a 10th level spell when Persisted). You do not recover the lower level spell slot, and spell slots gained above your normal allotment of spells/day fade the next time you are due to prepare spells (in other words, you don't get to keep that 10th level spell slot even if you could cast spells of that level).
Minor nitpick: RAW, DMM is applied at casting time (which is fantastic when you use DMM with metamagics other than Persist). The text of the feat has Jozan using it when casting Holy Smite.
That solves the problem with PoPs as well, since it clearly doesn't come back metamagicked.
(Then again, maybe you were saying you're handling it differently in your campaign.)
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If this is the case, and Sinfire changes his stance, then it means the concept I had in mind isn't quite going to work (The cleric can still persist fixed range spells, like Blessed Aim, but it won't allow my spellthief to steal, for instance, a Persistent Lesser Visage of the Deity). If that's the case, then I might be better off going with the shifter after all and making it a little more durable at the expense of more turns/day. I'll probably still work my way toward persisting buff spells, but it'll be a little longer until I can reliably apply it to more spells. One instead of two at this level won't be too terrible a trade off (and in applying Extend, I can still have two persistent, alternating buffs at a time, at least). At this point, I may want to switch the Planning Domain to something else with better domain spells, or maybe I could go for Strength devotion and get the slam attack in addition to the shifting natural attack.
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Minor nitpick: RAW, DMM is applied at casting time (which is fantastic when you use DMM with metamagics other than Persist). The text of the feat has Jozan using it when casting Holy Smite.
That solves the problem with PoPs as well, since it clearly doesn't come back metamagicked.
(Then again, maybe you were saying you're handling it differently in your campaign.)
Didn't know that. The way I posted is how I always interpreted the feat's ability (I only read it a few times, and usually on Crystal Keep or a similar site).
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Minor nitpick: RAW, DMM is applied at casting time (which is fantastic when you use DMM with metamagics other than Persist). The text of the feat has Jozan using it when casting Holy Smite.
That solves the problem with PoPs as well, since it clearly doesn't come back metamagicked.
(Then again, maybe you were saying you're handling it differently in your campaign.)
Didn't know that. The way I posted is how I always interpreted the feat's ability (I only read it a few times, and usually on Crystal Keep or a similar site).
The problem is that the way the feat is written is confusing, as I stated before:
The text provides for two possibilities: Either that you can expend the turn checks to prepare your spells in its normal spell level slot, or that you spend the turn checks upon casting to reduce the spell level adjustment.
The former provides for the fact that prepared casters, such as a cleric, must prepare spells with metamagic to begin with. The latter goes with the example given for DMM, where it says "For example, Jozan the cleric could sacrifice three turn attempts to empower a holy smite he's casting." My emphasis, indicates the sacrifice occurs upon casting, as opposed to upon preparing. However, unless you prepare a metamagic spell in a certain spell-level-slot and end up casting it at its regular slot, it doesn't make sense.
So, does DMM apply at casting or upon preparing? This obviously has a big impact on the usefulness of my cohort for Steal Spell. :O
Technically, since you're applying Persist spontaneously, that ought to bump up the casting time to a full round action as normal, though using the Turn attempts might circumvent this. In any case, it interacts very strangely with divine casters. Of course, the fact that the casting time would be longer has little to no impact, since you're casting it at the beginning of the day, in most cases, anyway.
Regardless, I'm still questioning where to take the cohort now, given this development.