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Playtime! => Play by Post General => Topic started by: Kaelik on October 29, 2008, 08:56:04 PM

Title: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Kaelik on October 29, 2008, 08:56:04 PM
I intend to run a "Tier 3" Playtest. Obviously, I disagree with JaronK about Dread Necro's and Beguilers, and since one of those results in Shadowcraft Mages, I'm going to use largely Uber's Tiers for this.

The party should be:

Shugenja/Ardent/Warblade/Factotum. By many accounts all of these should be about equal, and all but the Factotum have no access to the vast majority of "TO" material, so it should be fine.

I would like to continue this test at levels 5/10/15, and probably not more then that. At each level I will run the group through a WotC adventure module of that level, or at least part of one if the actual adventure spans several levels. I will also run them through a situation of my own design that might feature in a campaign of my own.

Criticism as regards anything is welcome, and will have no effect on you being chosen to play a class and/or me being a dick as DM.

The following positions require filling:

1) Factotum Player: JaronK?

2) Warblade Player: TheWordSlinger

3) Shugenja Player: emissary666

4) Ardent Player: Uber

5) Supervisor of DM: Tshern

For players, I would like the player of the class to believe that their class can contribute equally or close enough, to this party. So Uber can't play a Factotum, but JaronK can. Same rules for all classes. Point of Note: JaronK has super priority for Factotum if he chooses.

For the Supervisor DM, there is no question of my bias. I expect the Factotum to perform poorly. I would like someone to make sure that I am playing fair, so to speak. Plus, I enjoy running my DM material through someone. Additionally, I will be away from my books quite often, so if I need to check something, I might ask you to break out your copy of ToB or Dungeonscape.

Certainly a discussion of House Rules and "interpretations" is important. The following are my preliminary ones. If you believe something needs addressing or changing, let me know.

1) Polymorph and the Polymorph subschool are allowed.

2) Anyone claiming they can gain the spellcasting of another class for any reason, especially if that reason is polymorph will be immediately beaten to death over the internet.

3) If I as a DM feel at any time that your minions are a more appreciable threat then you yourself are, they will all turn against you as soon as there are no other enemies around. If they kill you oh well. Just keep that in mind before you pull out Diplomacy/Animate Dead/Binding.

4) You will have WBL and the treasure recovered from the encounters, you will not wish for anything or I will break you in half.

5) Assuming I am correct in saying that only the Factotum has access to the Planar Binding line of these characters, it is fully allowed, since Factotums lack the ability to bind demons of CR greater then themselves.

6) Leadership is banned.

7) Font of Inspiration for ungodly nova is a big no no. I don't care how many times you take it in the level 5 test, but you better not have more then 20 base IP at level 10 or 30 at 15.

8) These are tests of the classes in question, a certain amount of dipping is generally normal, but will be discouraged as much as possible. Factotum should be all Factotum, the Ardent should be either all Ardent, or Psionic casting PrCs (yes, slayer is fine). Warblade could dip around quite effectively, but I'm going to ask for full Warblade levels only. Shugenja can take any full caster PrC it qualifies for. Unless it qualifies for Shadowcraft Mage in which case it can't.

9) As per a (currently) 5-0 vote with one abstaining, Item Familiars are banned as well.

32 PB for stats, WBL. Anything else you need to know, just tell me.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Ubernoob on October 29, 2008, 09:06:19 PM
If omen doesn't have dibs on the ardent I'll be tossing a claw ardent.  Otherwise I've got dibs on the shugenja.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: TheWordSlinger on October 29, 2008, 10:26:19 PM
Oh oh oh! Warblade! Unless someone else has priority...
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: JaronK on October 30, 2008, 12:15:30 AM
Obviously, we're going to run into the whole "hostile DMs can always beat the players" issue here.  I mean, it looks like you're trying to prove Factotums are weak, but any DM can prove that any class is weak.

Also, if you think Dread Necromancers are strong, but you're playing by the rule that minions turn against you... how does that make any kind of sense to anyone?  I mean, isn't that one of the major Dread Necromancer abilities, that you can control a ton of undead?  And wouldn't a Dread Necromancer under that rule then be far weaker?

Anyway, I'm not sure if I want to enter this (though the fact that it's actual modules does help) but if it helps anyone, here's a 10th level Factotum (you didn't state if flaws are allowed here, but he's built without them).  If someone else wants to play him, that's fine.

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=89036

JaronK
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Kaelik on October 30, 2008, 12:27:48 AM
1) Of course. That's one reason I am recruiting a DM supervisor.

2) I actually wouldn't mind not DMing to much, but in my experience it's a lot harder to find a DM for a challenge then it is players.

3) Dread Necromancers also have super sweet spells, a full progression, and relatively speaking, some other cool abilities at low levels, and PrCs at higher ones. Yes a Dread Necro could theoretically have an infinite shadow army. Yes without that infinite shadow army he is weaker. But having a couple pet undead that you can heal all day, and some DR. And some nice spells, yeah, that's pretty cool even if the DM doesn't let you Planar Bind a Glabrezu at level 12.

You can have minions, it's only if your minions are obviously superior to you that it becomes a problem. If you Rebuke a Lich Wizard with a higher level of spellcasting then you, then he's fundamentally better then you.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: JaronK on October 30, 2008, 12:39:58 AM
I wasn't even refering to endless Shadow armies.  I just mean that one of the big abilities of a Dread Necromancer is that an 8th level DN with a charisma of 20 (pretty reasonable for a charisma caster I think) can have 72 HD worth of Animate Dead undead, all with +4 Str, +4 Dex, and +2 Hitpoints/HD (probably more than that with Corpse Crafter and Desecrate, plus fast healing abilities from Black Sand and other such stuff).  That's clearly going to be stronger than the Dread Necromancer himself, just by weight of numbers, if you get enough of them.

Or did you mean each individual minion must not be stronger than the player himself?  Like, planar bound effretti bone creatures are bad, but a bunch of skeletal giants are fine?

Also, wouldn't it be more reasonable to throw a Rogue in here?  I mean, Uber thinks they're Tier 3, right?  So his system says they're 1 tier above the Factotum, and mine says they're one tier below.  Since those two classes are a LOT easier to compare than, say a Factotum to a Warblade, wouldn't that make for an easier and more useful comparison? 

And yes, I'd prefer a nuetral DM, but I'm aware of the difficulty in finding one.

JaronK
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Kaelik on October 30, 2008, 03:45:08 AM
1) Yes, I know there are ways besides infinite armies to make your minions stronger then you, I generally consider them all out of line too. But if we were to objectively evaluate that, I think that the minions on their own would have to lose the benefits applied by Corpsecrafter ect. But that gets into fuzzy territory where one questions if desecrate counts as coming from the character or not, and in general is just very confusing. That's why I'd just as soon not use a Dread Necro in comparison.

2) The problem being that Rogue and Factotum generally accomplish largely the same thing in the party, if you want to open it up to 5 memeber party and add the rogue I'm fine with that, it's just that I wanted a generally balanced party.

Honestly, there is just no substitute for a Cleric, Crusader can heal HP, but so can wands and any number of other things, but Clerics do better party buffing then any other class, and they cure other conditions when you need it. I thought Ardent + Shugena would be the best fit, since Shu is probably going to be Water anyway.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Tshern on October 30, 2008, 07:45:32 PM
I can be the DM supervisor if you trust my integrity.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: emissary666 on October 30, 2008, 09:47:35 PM
I'll try my hand at shujenga.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: TheWordSlinger on October 30, 2008, 10:27:22 PM
Just so I create correctly, the first test wll be at level 5, right?
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Kaelik on October 30, 2008, 10:44:44 PM
Indeed, level 5.

Tshern, indeed, I was having difficulty thinking of anyone at BG who is neutralish and who's integrity I trust. Luckily I had forgotten about you.

Well it looks like we might have everyone, assuming JaronK is going to play the Facotutm.

So Tshern, Talk about what Module to run in PM maybe?

Hesitant to discuss it because if JaronK really wants a rogue, and really doesn't want me to run it, I'd be happy to run the rogue, and would you be willing to DM not just Supervise?

I wouldn't want to impose that on you if you aren't willing though.

Oh, JaronK, I hadn't checked your character sheet previously, but level 5 is the level of the first playtest, not level 10. Also, could you please have only the inherent bonuses added on to the right ability score set, and have all enhancements on the left side where it denotes the "Temp" score. And Base attack to +7/+2 instead of just 7.

Crafting: OF course you would. You really kill me inside. And if I asked you to take any kind of XP penalty at all, you complain about gravy train, even that doesn't apply when you take the feat 1 level ago and then spend all your wealth. But I'll leave those aside for now, since we are starting at level 5, where you can't craft.

And Item Familiar? Really? I know I forgot to ban that, but seriously. I don't want to have to calculate XP differently. Any chance you could just drop that? I mean, we all know that most everyone takes it otherwise.

Since of course, as the evil biased DM if you ever lost it, then it's clearly my fault.

You know what, I'm just going to call for a vote on Item Familiar, Everyone gets 1 vote except Tshern's vote is the tie breaker as supervisor DM. If everyone else is fine with it then everyone else will probably just take it anyway.

I of course vote against it.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Tshern on October 30, 2008, 11:04:47 PM
Ah, please send me a PM about it. If needed, I can also DM this, especially if we run an existing module. Creating a new campaign from scratch might cause some troubles though.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: emissary666 on October 30, 2008, 11:28:00 PM
I'm against it.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Ubernoob on October 30, 2008, 11:28:19 PM
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2252.0
First line, second sentence.

Are we sure Tshern is completely impartial?  It looks like he actually helped me make the tiers.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Dictum Mortuum on October 30, 2008, 11:54:50 PM
Hey, just wanted to say --

omg people! give up already. Play the game for fun, stop trying to prove stuff that are not even important. I mean, who cares if factotum is tier 3 or 1 or whatever :p
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Kaelik on October 31, 2008, 12:11:38 AM
Hey, just wanted to say --

omg people! give up already. Play the game for fun, stop trying to prove stuff that are not even important. I mean, who cares if factotum is tier 3 or 1 or whatever :p

Hi dickface. Go away.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: TheWordSlinger on October 31, 2008, 12:19:31 AM
I'm against Item Familiar...
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Tshern on October 31, 2008, 12:42:44 AM
Hey, just wanted to say --

omg people! give up already. Play the game for fun, stop trying to prove stuff that are not even important. I mean, who cares if factotum is tier 3 or 1 or whatever :p

Hi dickface. Go away.
That was uncalled for, he didn't come in insulting or anything.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: emissary666 on October 31, 2008, 12:49:14 AM
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2252.0
First line, second sentence.

Are we sure Tshern is completely impartial?  It looks like he actually helped me make the tiers.

Good point. Was Tshern involved in the placement of the factotum?
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Tshern on October 31, 2008, 12:52:01 AM
Can't actually even recall what I said. I have only seen a single Factotum in gameplay, so I really don't have the expertise to judge it's position and I am fairly sure I mentioned that to ubernoob as well.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Ubernoob on October 31, 2008, 12:52:37 AM
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2252.0
First line, second sentence.

Are we sure Tshern is completely impartial?  It looks like he actually helped me make the tiers.

Good point. Was Tshern involved in the placement of the factotum?
Not directly.  Frank gave the "psssst, look at what it can actually do" that made me go "duh" and switch swordsage, rogue, and factotum around.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Kaelik on October 31, 2008, 12:59:59 AM
1) I pretty much count his post as a perfect example of being a dick. I think informing other people that they aren't having fun is a huge dick move.

2) Well, if JaronK trusts you integrity we are fine, otherwise I consider Omen of Peace a good choice, assuming we can get him. It probably shouldn't be that big a deal either way though. And unlike Omen, you have volunteered.

3) Hey Uber/Tshern, either of you care to state your opinion on Item Familiar? Get this over with. I didn't think I was crazy to find Item Familiar crazy.

4) Tshern, check your PM box for info.

Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Tshern on October 31, 2008, 01:01:56 AM
1. Point taken.
2. Oh yes, JaronK's opinion would be nice.
3. Crazy to me as well...
4. I'll answer tomorrow, just going to bed.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Kaelik on October 31, 2008, 01:05:18 AM
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that unanimous except for JaronK that Item Familiar is bad means Item Familiar not allowed. You can still go ahead and buy a Masterwork sheathe for a little bonus. Further, you forgot this line: "Be usable by the character (if it is a weapon, the character must be proficient with the appropriate category of weapon)." Which would switch around your feat order, and greatly reduce the number of skill ranks you could have invested.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Ubernoob on October 31, 2008, 01:11:07 AM
Item familiars are stupid.  "I spent a feat to get extra XP!" is not a valid mechanic.

Plus, that sheet is illegal.  There's no fucking way he can afford all those skill points AND dumping 39 ranks into three skills for the item familiar.

Really, JaronK.  Learn the rules.  You've got to know the rules to play the game.  Not knowing the rules is why I keep calling you an idiot.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Kaelik on October 31, 2008, 01:16:28 AM
Hey Uber, you know I'm a big fan of calling people on shit, but that post is just wrong.

He's a Human Factotum, he get's a lot of skill points. And while I would have thought (had I thought about Item Familiar at all) that it is total bullshit and no one would actually suggest using it, it is legal, both per the normal rules and the list of houserules at the time. Personal hatred is fine, but this is not the time.

So while you can call bullshit like I did on it, and especially with CWI comboed, it is still legal. He knows the rules, he just has no shame about twisting them as much as possible.

And for the entirety of this game, if he chooses to continue playing in it. I want you both to point out each others problems relating to this challenge like good little Piazoians would, and no namecalling.

And you aren't allowed to have a problem with his skill points until you have personally calculated them yourself.

JaronK, that's one reason I asked you to separate enhancement bonus to scores from others.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Tshern on October 31, 2008, 01:19:01 AM
Should skill points be counted based on the final intelligence score (minus enchantment bonus of course) or should level bumps be taken into account?
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Kaelik on October 31, 2008, 01:23:16 AM
I always go for no retroactive skill points. If I have to calculate that shit every time I do a Wizard, then they have to do the same.

These characters should in general be a progression, so it shouldn't be that big a deal.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: TheWordSlinger on October 31, 2008, 01:24:07 AM
I give you, Barsa Gladia (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=89294)!
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Ubernoob on October 31, 2008, 01:25:01 AM
Hey Uber, you know I'm a big fan of being a mean, but let's keep it out of this game.

He's a Human Factotum, he get's a lot of skill points. And while I would have thought (had I thought about Item Familiar at all) that it is total bullshit and no one would actually suggest using it, it is legal, both per the normal rules and the list of houserules at the time. Personal hatred is fine, but this is not the time.
No, no.  The sheet is illegal.  Let me run it down for you:
9 skills maxed
Various skills spread around to the equivalent of a bit over 2 skills maxed
6 skills maxed out invested in item familiar (that's the equivalent of 18 skills maxed)

That's more than 29 skills maxed effectively.
Now, factotums get 6+int.
Make that human for 7+int.

This means that at some point he had to have at least a +19 int mod that doesn't come from temporary bonuses.



Yes, JaronK was either:
A) Cheating.
B) Not even knowing how the mechanic works.


I don't call bullshit unless it is bullshit and I'm tired of JaronK not knowing what he's talking about.





Sorry for the rant, but knowing the rules is kind of a pet peeve of mine.  I'll keep direct insults out of if here.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Kaelik on October 31, 2008, 01:35:20 AM
1) I realize I never said how to generate HP, take average for everything after level 1. Round up when doing the level 10 character, though that doesn't apply now.

2) TheWordSlinger: I believe Barsa has 2PB unspent that you can add somewhere, and an inherent bonus to a stat. I think you also forgot your human skill point to spend.

3) Uber. You aren't reading the Item Familiar points right. He's saying he invested 6 of his 9 maxxed skills in the Item Familiar, and then used the points to apply bonuses to 2 others.

He only has, assuming your addition of various skills is correct, 11 skills maxxed, which equates to a +4 Int mod, which is correct for starting. So that a bit over on the Various is just level 8-10 where he has a +5 Int.

For someone complaining about not knowing the rules, you should probably read the Item Familiar rules before saying that.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Ubernoob on October 31, 2008, 01:51:38 AM
3) Uber. You aren't reading the Item Familiar points right. He's saying he invested 6 of his 9 maxxed skills in the Item Familiar, and then used the points to apply bonuses to 2 others.

He only has, assuming your addition of various skills is correct, 11 skills maxxed, which equates to a +4 Int mod, which is correct for starting. So that a bit over on the Various is just level 8-10 where he has a +5 Int.

For someone complaining about not knowing the rules, you should probably read the Item Familiar rules before saying that.
That's not what I'm reading at all.  I'll let JaronK explain his notation.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: TheWordSlinger on October 31, 2008, 02:01:55 AM
2) TheWordSlinger: I believe Barsa has 2PB unspent that you can add somewhere, and an inherent bonus to a stat. I think you also forgot your human skill point to spend.
Fixed it.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Kaelik on October 31, 2008, 02:15:05 AM
That's not what I'm reading at all.  I'll let JaronK explain his notation.

I don't need him to explain his notation, because I can see it, understand it, have individually counted each skill point and each bonus, and have determined it is correct.

However, all that is moot, since the character he should have built is level 5, and by a currently unanimous vote Item Familiar has been disbarred.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Ubernoob on October 31, 2008, 03:19:55 AM
That's not what I'm reading at all.  I'll let JaronK explain his notation.

I don't need him to explain his notation, because I can see it, understand it, have individually counted each skill point and each bonus, and have determined it is correct.

However, all that is moot, since the character he should have built is level 5, and by a currently unanimous vote Item Familiar has been disbarred.
Point.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: JaronK on October 31, 2008, 10:04:06 PM
See, this is why I found this concept silly.

Uber, you don't actually know the rules.  Not even a little tiny bit.  In this case, what you don't know is that Item Familiar's invested points still count as ranks for you, the only downside is that loss of the familiar makes you lose those points (which is why it's adamantine and a weapon that can be slieght of handed onto the body to keep it safe).  The Factotum in question has, for his first 7 levels, 11 skill points per level, and then for the last 3 he has 12 skill points per level, because he's human.  Look at the ranks given, and you can see that it's correct.  But at always, you just yell and bawl and argue from ignorance.

Though it amuses me to learn what I suspected all along... the reason you couldn't get how Factotums work is you don't know them, you just heard what Frank told you and repeated it as your own.  Parroting, again?

Meanwhile, we're getting to see a little Rogue vs Factotum thing on the other forums, and what did we get?  A Rogue who was completely illegal and can't even compete.  We'll see if he can fix it up to actually being legal.

And what objections do I get here?  Whining about using Craft Wonderous Item, despite the fact that not only is it legal, it's an example of a feat you can take if you only have spell like abilities (Complete Arcane, page 72).  It's not only RAW, it's actually stated RAI.  And as for the exp used?  Surely you know that if you ever get lower than your party in exp, you get more, which corrects for it... plus the Item Familiar gives me an extra 10% exp since level 3, which pays for the exp used.  And yes, according to the rules of the challenge, Item Familiars are legal.  In the end, it all just looks like a bunch of "hey wait, Rogues can't do that and I want to prove Factotums are weaker than Rogues.  Not allowed!"

But hey, I do love that you decide for democracy to vote in a clearly biased group.  Yeesh.

JaronK
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Ubernoob on October 31, 2008, 10:21:25 PM
Not replying to troll.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: AfterCrescent on October 31, 2008, 10:35:48 PM
This is the kind of shit that's not needed here.

The PbP area, if not all of BG, is meant to be an open and fun place where people come to have fun, not be giant ass-hats.

1) Take your damn arguments elsewhere. If you want to have a combat only challenge, do so, but without being an ass.
2) Stop taking internet arguments so damn seriously that they turn into personal attacks. Not everyone who disagrees with you is an idiot. Not everyone who makes mistakes is an idiot. And not everyone who you don't like is a troll.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: TheWordSlinger on October 31, 2008, 10:50:00 PM
JaronK, I think the problem we're having is that this character has an abundances of various misc bonuses to skills that are getting mashed together into one 'misc bonus' column. From levels 3 to 10 you have 102 skill points to invest in your Item Familiar, which gives you a total of 34 unnamed "+1's" to apply to your skills as you see fit.
This is assuming you put every single rank into your familiar, which may not be such a great call...
Also, you have 146 total ranks possible and have only spent 145, have fun  :D
Looking over it again, and attempting to account for the misc bonuses I see, I notice 102 total bonus points, so it's possible that the problem is that the Item Familiar gives a 3:1 return on invested skills, whereas you think it's 1:1.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Tshern on October 31, 2008, 11:46:21 PM
I do think Item familiars are damn powerful and the +10 XP thing really makes my brain hurt. However, JaronK is mostly using it for Iajitsu focus, which is just extra damage. It doesn't really even do that much more damage than Craven, which is a basic component of sneak attacking Rogues. For the purposes of the test, we might just as well allow it and simply take the effects of Iajitsu focus into account if/when we analyze how much each character contributed.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: JaronK on November 01, 2008, 12:37:39 AM
JaronK, I think the problem we're having is that this character has an abundances of various misc bonuses to skills that are getting mashed together into one 'misc bonus' column.

I'm not sure how to get around that, but the bonuses are as follows (from memory):

+7 to all Dex and Str based skills (I wasn't sure if this applied to Initiative, so I didn't put it in there) due to the Factotum's Brains over Brawn ability with an Int bonus of +7.

+4 to Diplomacy, from Bluff and Sense Motive synergies.

+2 to Intimidate, also from Bluff synergy.

+2 to Disguise, also from Bluff synergy (applies only to disguising self, and only in character)

+10 to Disguise, from Hat of Disguise (Self only, as noted at bottom)

+13 to Hide and Iajuitsu Focus, from Item Familiar

+2 to Move Silently, from the Muffling modification on the Chain Shirt

+2 to Disable Device and Open Lock, from Masterwork Thieve's Tools

+2 to various Craft skills, from Masterwork Artisan's Tools (each specified)

+2 Forgery, from Forger's Kit

+1 Ride, from Masterwork Military Saddle

Unlisted +5 to crafting from Magecraft, used only when crafting various items (noted at the bottom)

Unlisted +2 to Handle Animal Checks to train or rear animals, from Animal Trainer's Kit

I hope that covers everything?

Quote
From levels 3 to 10 you have 102 skill points to invest in your Item Familiar, which gives you a total of 34 unnamed "+1's" to apply to your skills as you see fit.
This is assuming you put every single rank into your familiar, which may not be such a great call...

You're absolutely right, I was assigning old points without realizing I couldn't assign points from before I had the item familiar (but that was just being lazy, it doesn't actually change anything significant).  Making that change now.  However, I was using a total of +26 from my Item Familiar, so I wasn't maxed out... but I do have to change around exactly which points are invested.  Still, as noted on the bottom, I have +13 to Iajuitsu Focus and +13 to Hide, and that's it.

Quote
Also, you have 146 total ranks possible and have only spent 145, have fun  :D

Whoops!  Forgot the level 8 bonus rank.  Thanks.

Quote
Looking over it again, and attempting to account for the misc bonuses I see, I notice 102 total bonus points, so it's possible that the problem is that the Item Familiar gives a 3:1 return on invested skills, whereas you think it's 1:1.

Look over my list, and tell me if you still think I've got any bonus points assigned incorrectly. 

JaronK
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: TheWordSlinger on November 01, 2008, 12:48:49 AM
Everything looks good to me. Thanks JaronK.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Kaelik on November 01, 2008, 01:31:46 AM
1) JaronK, starting level is level 5, so all this is not terribly urgent since you won't be playing that character.

2) JaronK, you have not noticed a very important aspect of Item Familiar: from the SRD: "Be usable by the character (if it is a weapon, the character must be proficient with the appropriate category of weapon)."

So in fact you must rearrange your feat order in order to even have the familiar, and with Item Familiar taken at level 6, you can only invest 53 skill points into it, instead of the 78 you invested.

3) As regards losing the item familiar, actually, investing everything in his familiar is the smartest thing he could do, since if he loses it ever for any reason, then he can throw away the results for the whole test on the grounds of 'evil biased DM'

4) Tshern, the Item familiar is being used to gain the benefits of the Craven feat, and to gain extra XP, and to set up an area to blame the biased DM.

5) JaronK, where is this rogue versus Factotum stuff on some other thread?

6) Every single person but you is against Item Familiar. I don't know how this is a biased group, certainly Uber is, and I am, though I hate Item Familiar for everyone, even Rogues who use it to gain bonuses to Hide and/or Iajitsu and/or MS and/or UMD. I don't konw if emissary or Wordslinger have been against you in the past, because I don't even know them. And if you really think Tshern is biased, well he's the one that is supposed to make sure I'm fair.

7) CWI. This is going to be fun.

a) You took it at level 9 for a level 10 character, that means you spent all that XP while being the same level as everyone else in the party. You don't get more XP then them because they where level 9 and so where you. Everyone in the party for the level 10 challenge has exactly the XP to level to level 10.

b) You had more XP then them for 7 straight levels, so you would have gained less XP then them for all those levels, but I see you didn't mention that.

c) Going from level 9 to level 10 means you gained 9000XP. Because of your additional 10% you gained 9900XP in the time everyone else gained 9000XP. Even assuming you hit level 9 at exactly the same time as everyone else, and that you spent every single XP on crafting your Item Familiar before you reached that level, you still spent 2184XP on CWI alone for that one level. So you would start the game 1284XP short of level 10.

Even assuming that for some reason, with more XP then your party you still managed to gain the exact same amount of XP as them, you would still have only an additional 3600XP more then them from your other 8 levels. After spending that on your CWI and your Item Familiar, you would still have 2000XP more then the rest of the party, assuming the don't take Item Familiar. And in that case, you still gain less XP then everyone else.

Bottomline JaronK, if Factotums can't keep up without breaking WBL and breaking the RNG (or what's left of it) in ways that aren't included in 99% of all games, just say so. Just say, "I need Item Familiar because without it, Factotums can't keep up with Warblades of Ardents of Shugenas. I need it to not suck." But don't sit here and complain about a biased vote.

Go ask any ten people anywhere on the fucking internet if a game running a party through a series of WotC modules should use Item Familiars to pay for crafting and automatically get double WBL, or if they should use Item familiars at all. That vote is always going to be against using them. Because everyone except you. That's right, fucking everyone, knows that Item Familiar is too fucking good. For anyone.

I put it up for a vote because I figured the Shugena would be happy to get his hand on an extra spell, some more XP, ect. But no, everyone voted against it. You can either claim that's because these people who have never once said anything about your Tier system or Ubers hate you as a person, or you can admit that Item Familiar is bullshit because it provides bonuses far in excess of what any other non-Leadership feat does.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Tshern on November 01, 2008, 01:38:50 AM
Omen of Peace might be more up to this task. My services aren't really worth anything if I am not trusted, right? Perhaps JaronK could suggest a user who would follow the DM and double-check his reasoning.

Kaelik: I understand your point there, controversial grounds.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: JaronK on November 01, 2008, 01:45:44 AM
1) JaronK, starting level is level 5, so all this is not terribly urgent since you won't be playing that character.

I was testing the waters.  The instant hostility makes me think this is not a good idea, though Tshern DMing it seems better.

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2) JaronK, you have not noticed a very important aspect of Item Familiar: from the SRD: "Be usable by the character (if it is a weapon, the character must be proficient with the appropriate category of weapon)."

So in fact you must rearrange your feat order in order to even have the familiar, and with Item Familiar taken at level 6, you can only invest 53 skill points into it, instead of the 78 you invested.

Unless I swapped a Font instead, which doesn't change anything.

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3) As regards losing the item familiar, actually, investing everything in his familiar is the smartest thing he could do, since if he loses it ever for any reason, then he can throw away the results for the whole test on the grounds of 'evil biased DM

I don't argue like that.  Instead, I made the Familiar into something as hard to destroy as possible.  Dwarvencraft gives it better saves and hitpoints.  Adamantine gives it plenty of hardness.  And Sleight of Hand means that enemies can't find it.  Plus, in combat it's only out while I'm striking, and it's otherwise not visible, so very few things can target it.

Result:  Yes, it would take a DM dedicated to taking it out to actually lose the thing, usually with an abitrary "all your stuff is gone for no reason" kind of thing.  Right now, the Factotum can hide it so well even a dedicated search wouldn't find it.  Luckily, however, we're talking about pregenerated scenarios, right?  So that's far less likely to occur, and I honestly think the defenses I gave for it are enough to get the job done.  

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4) Tshern, the Item familiar is being used to gain the benefits of the Craven feat, and to gain extra XP, and to set up an area to blame the biased DM.

That last is how you operate, not how I do.  

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5) JaronK, where is this rogue versus Factotum stuff on some other thread?

Classes forum.   It's this same Factotum, made according to Hida's challenge rules (and also the rules of the campaign I'm keeping him as a backup character for... and yes, it's already approved by the DM).  His response was to post an illegal character (way over wealth) that was non functional (tried to take 10 on UMD) while claiming that Craft Wonderous Items shouldn't be legal for characters with spell like abilities (it explicitly is allowed, via a page he himself cited when trying to prove it illegal, as an example of what's allowed).

Feel free to throw in your own.

[qutoe]6) Every single person but you is against Item Familiar. I don't know how this is a biased group, certainly Uber is, and I am, though I hate Item Familiar for everyone, even Rogues who use it to gain bonuses to Hide and/or Iajitsu and/or MS and/or UMD. I don't konw if emissary or Wordslinger have been against you in the past, because I don't even know them. And if you really think Tshern is biased, well he's the one that is supposed to make sure I'm fair.[/quote]

Tshern just said it was okay.  So did my DM, which is why it's there.

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7) CWI. This is going to be fun.

Huh?

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a) You took it at level 9 for a level 10 character, that means you spent all that XP while being the same level as everyone else in the party. You don't get more XP then them because they where level 9 and so where you. Everyone in the party for the level 10 challenge has exactly the XP to level to level 10.

b) You had more XP then them for 7 straight levels, so you would have gained less XP then them for all those levels, but I see you didn't mention that.

Unless I was spending the extra Exp on the Item Familiar (since you can effectively craft it).  In which case your arguement falls apart.

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c) Going from level 9 to level 10 means you gained 9000XP. Because of your additional 10% you gained 9900XP in the time everyone else gained 9000XP. Even assuming you hit level 9 at exactly the same time as everyone else, and that you spent every single XP on crafting your Item Familiar before you reached that level, you still spent 2184XP on CWI alone for that one level. So you would start the game 1284XP short of level 10.

Unless we didn't gain EXACTLY the amount of exp required to hit level 10.  

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Even assuming that for some reason, with more XP then your party you still managed to gain the exact same amount of XP as them, you would still have only an additional 3600XP more then them from your other 8 levels. After spending that on your CWI and your Item Familiar, you would still have 2000XP more then the rest of the party, assuming the don't take Item Familiar. And in that case, you still gain less XP then everyone else.

Okay, do I have more exp or less?  You can't seem to tell.

Look, starting from whenever I gained the Item Familiar, I was both gaining extra exp per encounter and able to spend that exp on something.  You can't assume I always had more exp than the group, or that I always had less, whenever it suits you.

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Bottomline JaronK, if Factotums can't keep up without breaking WBL and breaking the RNG (or what's left of it) in ways that aren't included in 99% of all games, just say so. Just say, "I need Item Familiar because without it, Factotums can't keep up with Warblades of Ardents of Shugenas. I need it to not suck." But don't sit here and complain about a biased vote.

No, I just made the character.  That's it.  I wanted a character that didn't have to depend on getting gear somewhere else, because for the other campaign he was designed for, that's important.

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Go ask any ten people anywhere on the fucking internet if a game running a party through a series of WotC modules should use Item Familiars to pay for crafting and automatically get double WBL, or if they should use Item familiars at all. That vote is always going to be against using them. Because everyone except you. That's right, fucking everyone, knows that Item Familiar is too fucking good. For anyone.

You are not the voice of the entire internet.  And complaining "oh, the Factotum you made was too strong when I was trying to prove how weak they are" isn't impressive.

JaronK
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: JaronK on November 01, 2008, 01:47:10 AM
And Tshern, it's not you DMing that's my issue.  It's that there's right now two VERY hostile people, which means there's no way this is going to be fun.  Kaelik  already seems to be reserving the "it doesn't count because it's too strong" arguement, which means this may be both not fun and pointless.

JaronK
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Tshern on November 01, 2008, 01:53:51 AM
In case I DMed the game, I'd love to have someone looking after my actions so I cannot be blamed without that supervisor backing me up. As such, DMing a ready made adventure (which seems to be our avenue) would be alright, even though having someone with a bit more free time might be better. However, I'll jump in and take the lead if needed, I too want to see these classes in action.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Ubernoob on November 01, 2008, 01:55:13 AM
And Tshern, it's not you DMing that's my issue.  It's that there's right now two VERY hostile people, which means there's no way this is going to be fun.  Kaelik  already seems to be reserving the "it doesn't count because it's too strong" arguement, which means this may be both not fun and pointless.

JaronK
How about this:
Everyone takes item familiar.  Regardless of class they take it.

Sound fair?
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Tshern on November 01, 2008, 01:57:33 AM
Doesn't give all that much to every class though. On the other hand, the idea itself is better than outright banning it.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Ubernoob on November 01, 2008, 02:16:00 AM
Doesn't give all that much to every class though. On the other hand, the idea itself is better than outright banning it.
Bonuses to skills and bonus xp.  For casters it even gives an extra slot.  That's about it.  Rogues, rangers, and casters actually gain more from item familiars than factotums.  In the five man party two gain less than factotum:
Ardent (doesn't allow to invest pp and few skills)
Warblade (not as many skills as rogue)

and two gain more:
Rogue (more ranks)
Shugenja (spell slot!)

Factotum seems to be getting the middle of the road all things considered.  If there was transparency for psionics he'd be close to dead last.

Heck, the warblade even gets an intelligent item free of charge.  Considering how much better the greater powers are for melee characters...


Y'know, it seems to me like Item Familiar can be better used by everyone except the ardent and even the ardent only loses out because there isn't a psionics conversion for spell investing.



So, yeah.  I'm all in favor of item familiar being allowed.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Tshern on November 01, 2008, 02:24:02 AM
Didn't remember the spell slot thing. However, I was discussing other classes as well, not only the ones present in this game: Fighters, Swordsages, Binders...
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: JaronK on November 01, 2008, 02:25:21 AM
Well, obviously if it's allowed for one it should be allowed for the rest.

I did, however, swap the feat order, because that objection was at least correct.  EWP had to be before Item Familiar.

JaronK
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Ubernoob on November 01, 2008, 02:26:30 AM
Didn't remember the spell slot thing. However, I was discussing other classes as well, not only the ones present in this game: Fighters, Swordsages, Binders...
They still get an intelligent weapon.  Have you looked at how good those are for melee types?
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Kaelik on November 01, 2008, 02:30:17 AM
Tshern just said it was okay.  So did my DM, which is why it's there.

1) Tshern voted against it.

2) Honestly, if I'm not DMing, I don't even care. Sure your BS greater then WBL is annoying, but not that annoying. But if I'm not DMing, then I don't have to figure out whatever your bullshit XP total currently is.

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Unless I was spending the extra Exp on the Item Familiar (since you can effectively craft it).  In which case your arguement falls apart.

Actually, since you gain more XP from the Familiar then you could possible spend on it, you would still have been gaining less XP then the rest of the party at every level.

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Unless we didn't gain EXACTLY the amount of exp required to hit level 10.

There has never been a point at which you gained XP while already being level 10.

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Okay, do I have more exp or less?  You can't seem to tell.

That's because you have bullshit Item Familiar. If we started playing at level 3, you would have slightly more XP the everyone else when you reached level 9. About 2% more. After that, they would quickly catch up and pass you buy while you sit around crafting XP away as fast as you get it. Then, when they reached level 10, you would still be level 9. And you would start the level 10 challenge at that level.

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No, I just made the character.  That's it.  I wanted a character that didn't have to depend on getting gear somewhere else, because for the other campaign he was designed for, that's important.

That's great, no one cares that your character that obviously sucked for 9 levels and is now all of a sudden really good at level 10 was designed for some other campaign.

The point is that crafting is banned for every single person except you. Because everyone else's class was chosen for them as a class that cannot craft.

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And complaining "oh, the Factotum you made was too strong when I was trying to prove how weak they are" isn't impressive.

You still aren't actually strong, the only thing you have over anyone else is that you decided you should have double WBL and break the skill RNG (something anyone can do).

And just as a point of note, you can't craft either your boots or your haversack, since you can't cast the spells for those.

So if Tshern is DMing, then I'm playing a rogue? That sounds fine to me. Now to decide how I want to do this.

Oh, some other things about your character:

1) Where did you get the beast from? I asked this about the Roc in a deleted post as well.

2) Your attack bonus is all wrong, you act like you have Weapon Finesse even though you don't.

As for Item Familiar, if we have some clear way of making it fair while still making it easy for XP calculation, seems fine. Heck, I like high powered games so I wouldn't even be upset to see it given as a free bonus feat to everyone.

But if I am going to make a character: 1) Flaws? JaronK made his without, I was waiting to see if anyone actually wanted them.

2) Item Familiar final ruling?

Honestly, if we just ignore the XP factor of it completely and just say everyone has the same XP, I think it's fine. But as a DM I hate what it does to XP calculation, especially since we have to judge it's effects without actually playing through every level.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Ubernoob on November 01, 2008, 02:36:43 AM
Could we not use flaws?  They don't show the typical game and are WAAAAAY too min/max friendly IMO.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Tshern on November 01, 2008, 02:41:11 AM
Didn't remember the spell slot thing. However, I was discussing other classes as well, not only the ones present in this game: Fighters, Swordsages, Binders...
They still get an intelligent weapon.  Have you looked at how good those are for melee types?
Only what I've read from the SRD, but that stuff is good. I personally adore the 120' blindsense.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Kaelik on November 01, 2008, 02:49:19 AM
Well, flaws have been in all my typical games, and I really don't see them as "min max friendly" so much as a correction for the fact that WotC decided to print a bunch of feats that don't do anything but are still pre-reqs for real feats.

But I don't terribly mind playing without them.

Oh, and JaronK, other thing which you probably can't craft (don't have my books anymore tonight) Blindfold of True Darkness.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: JaronK on November 01, 2008, 03:03:12 AM
Tshern just said it was okay.  So did my DM, which is why it's there.

1) Tshern voted against it.

Quote from: Tshern
I do think Item familiars are damn powerful and the +10 XP thing really makes my brain hurt. However, JaronK is mostly using it for Iajitsu focus, which is just extra damage. It doesn't really even do that much more damage than Craven, which is a basic component of sneak attacking Rogues. For the purposes of the test, we might just as well allow it and simply take the effects of Iajitsu focus into account if/when we analyze how much each character contributed.

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2) Honestly, if I'm not DMing, I don't even care. Sure your BS greater then WBL is annoying, but not that annoying. But if I'm not DMing, then I don't have to figure out whatever your bullshit XP total currently is.

Statements like this suggest that even if the Factotum does great, you're just going to say "oh, well, that's only because he was using Craft Wonderous Item and Item Familiar!"  Meanwhile, if I replaced those with Font of Inspiration, you'd be saying "oh, that's only because he was using Font stacking!"  Unless my feats are Skill Focus: Basket Weaving, I'm going to have to deal with this sort of stuff.  And that makes this worthless, unless it's fun... which I'd love, but at the same time seems unlikely if I have to deal with this all the time.

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Unless I was spending the extra Exp on the Item Familiar (since you can effectively craft it).  In which case your arguement falls apart.

Actually, since you gain more XP from the Familiar then you could possible spend on it, you would still have been gaining less XP then the rest of the party at every level.

Ah, so I have more XP than I could possibly spend, but I don't have enough XP to spend.  Right. 

Ooooor... maybe right before I level is when I spend it, ensuring that I'm at the same level as the party.

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Unless we didn't gain EXACTLY the amount of exp required to hit level 10.

There has never been a point at which you gained XP while already being level 10.

Okay, if we needed 500xp to level to 10 from where we were, do you think we would always gain exactly5200xp?  Or is it possible that CR 9ish encounters might throw us over that mark, making it VERY unlikely we'd have that exact amount of exp at any given time?

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Okay, do I have more exp or less?  You can't seem to tell.

That's because you have bullshit Item Familiar. If we started playing at level 3, you would have slightly more XP the everyone else when you reached level 9. About 2% more. After that, they would quickly catch up and pass you buy while you sit around crafting XP away as fast as you get it. Then, when they reached level 10, you would still be level 9. And you would start the level 10 challenge at that level.

Instead of bullshit Fonts of Inspiration, or Bullshit [insert any feat that's actually strong]?

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No, I just made the character.  That's it.  I wanted a character that didn't have to depend on getting gear somewhere else, because for the other campaign he was designed for, that's important.

That's great, no one cares that your character that obviously sucked for 9 levels and is now all of a sudden really good at level 10 was designed for some other campaign.

The point is that crafting is banned for every single person except you. Because everyone else's class was chosen for them as a class that cannot craft.

Ah, so it's not fair that Factotums have an ability that the others don't have?  How sad.  That's clearly an unfair advantage for the Factotum.  How dare he have a class given ability (eligibility to craft) that no one else gets!  Hey, no one else gets inspiration points.  Shall we remove those too, because it's unfair? 

...by the way, psionic classes can't craft?

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And complaining "oh, the Factotum you made was too strong when I was trying to prove how weak they are" isn't impressive.

You still aren't actually strong, the only thing you have over anyone else is that you decided you should have double WBL and break the skill RNG (something anyone can do).

...using class abilities.  So, "Factotums have the ability to have better gear if they focus on it, which is unfair and bullshit, so that shouldn't count, so they're weak."

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And just as a point of note, you can't craft either your boots or your haversack, since you can't cast the spells for those.

I'll check that.

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Oh, some other things about your character:

1) Where did you get the beast from? I asked this about the Roc in a deleted post as well.

Desmoderu Hunting Bats are domesticated animals, something the Factotum would know about (since he can at any time take 10 on the appropriate knowledge check when trying to figure out where to buy a good mount, and add his class level, giving him a 28).  In theory, he would war train it himself since he can and thus it would be cheaper, but I didn't bother since there's no way to be sure on the price of a non war trained bat.

None the less, the bats are indeed domesticated animals.  I picked them because they were thematically appropriate (stealthy and mobile).

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2) Your attack bonus is all wrong, you act like you have Weapon Finesse even though you don't.

Feycraft.  It's correct.

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As for Item Familiar, if we have some clear way of making it fair while still making it easy for XP calculation, seems fine. Heck, I like high powered games so I wouldn't even be upset to see it given as a free bonus feat to everyone.

But if I am going to make a character: 1) Flaws? JaronK made his without, I was waiting to see if anyone actually wanted them.

I thought they weren't allowed, so I left them out.  I can put them in if they are allowed.

I also left out getting Int to initiative, something I wasn't sure about (Brains over brawn may allow that, or not, I wasn't sure).

JaronK
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: JaronK on November 01, 2008, 03:11:57 AM
Oh, and JaronK, other thing which you probably can't craft (don't have my books anymore tonight) Blindfold of True Darkness.

It requires See Invisibility (Sor/Wiz 2).  It's fine.

The Haversack was a problem though, as I can't craft that until 13.  And yes, I missed the Longstrider requirement on the Boots of the Battle Charger.  I missed that and will make appropriate changes (removing the Battle Charger, and paying full price for the sack, for now).

EDIT:  Just noticed two things.  1)  Brains over Brawn does indeed apply to initiative checks, meaning I don't need the armour spikes of Warning at all and B) I think I listed the armour spikes as being too expensive (priced them as a +3 weapon instead of +2).  I'm going to have to recheck my cash, but I might have a lot more than I realized.

JaronK
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: TheWordSlinger on November 01, 2008, 07:58:32 AM
I would like to ask that if Item Familiar gets in, that flaws be allowed as well...
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Kaelik on November 01, 2008, 11:34:34 PM
Well, my reply got eateded twice, so I'll just address the important parts:

1) I don't mean how your Factotum knows about your mount, I mean what book these things are in, because I see no book with a list of buyable mounts other then horse and riding dog in PHB, and they seem to be something useful. This is not a "you can't have that!" phrased as a question, it is: "Hey what's that?"

2) Yes, feats which provide greater benefits then 90% of other feats to every character regardless of class don't show Factotums to be sweet. I don't like that you are willing to abuse anything you can even think of, and yet refuse to admit that you have a level of min-max and optimization that most people don't use in their normal games. If a Factotum can't keep up without Item Familiar, then he sucks. Sorry. Everyone else manages to be just fine without Item Familiar. Stop complaining that if you don't have access to every single obscure bit of cheese you can think of that we are being biased.

3) Crafting: Every character in the game has access to crafting, parties are done where groups have WBL, and where groups have double WBL, but no parties, and no fair comparisons are done where one player has twice the wealth of anyone else.

4) So now to call you on some more bullshit that you will inevitably complain that if you don't have we are cheating you of what every DM allows: You have a gnome weapon that was crafted by a dwarven fey human.

Please explain how that makes any sense to anyone. Just drop the Dwarvencraft, it doesn't even matter because no one is going to target your Item Familiar anyway, and that way you aren't bullshitting us with an item that was crafted by both dwarves and fey.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: JaronK on November 01, 2008, 11:57:05 PM
Well, my reply got eateded twice, so I'll just address the important parts:

1) I don't mean how your Factotum knows about your mount, I mean what book these things are in, because I see no book with a list of buyable mounts other then horse and riding dog in PHB, and they seem to be something useful. This is not a "you can't have that!" phrased as a question, it is: "Hey what's that?"

Ah, sorry, thought you meant something else.

Desmoderu Hunting Bats are found in Monster Manual 2, and note that they were specifically addressed by the 3.5 update of that book (they now have Blindsense, not Blindsight, for example).  MMII also has the Warbeast template, which can be applied to any domesticated creature (which Hunting Bats specifically are) with a DC 20 Handle Animal Check (which the Factotum can easily make using his Cunning Knowledge ability).  The nice thing about this template is that it gives you a set price to purchase such a mount (based on HD), which is a big reason to use it, as the Hunting Bat entry never actually gives a price.

Note also that Eberron has some rules for purchasing mounts... depending on how much money I have, I may or may not apply the Magebreed template, which doubles the cost of the mount but makes it a bit better.

Really, though, I just wanted to have some sort of mount that seemed thematically appropriate, as I didn't think a big heavy warhorse sounded right.

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2) Yes, feats which provide greater benefits then 90% of other feats to every character regardless of class don't show Factotums to be sweet. I don't like that you are willing to abuse anything you can even think of, and yet refuse to admit that you have a level of min-max and optimization that most people don't use in their normal games. If a Factotum can't keep up without Item Familiar, then he sucks. Sorry. Everyone else manages to be just fine without Item Familiar. Stop complaining that if you don't have access to every single obscure bit of cheese you can think of that we are being biased.

It's not that he can't keep up without Item Familiar.  It's that I specifically wanted a concept of a character that didn't have to depend much on found gear.  And at this point, you've complained about Item Familiars (which were in the initial rules given), Font of Inspiration (the only Factotum only feat), and Craft Wonderous Items (because other classes can't do it, it's too powerful, whatever, despite it actually being an example of a feat that classes with spell like abilities could take).  It starts looking like you're just going to whine unless I build something using really weak feats... the only one you haven't complained about is Exotic Weapon Proficiency, a feat that a lot of people consider to be sub par (since you could get around that with the Skillfull enchantment anyway).

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3) Crafting: Every character in the game has access to crafting, parties are done where groups have WBL, and where groups have double WBL, but no parties, and no fair comparisons are done where one player has twice the wealth of anyone else.

See?

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4) So now to call you on some more bullshit that you will inevitably complain that if you don't have we are cheating you of what every DM allows: You have a gnome weapon that was crafted by a dwarven fey human.

Holy crap, you just went after EWP: Quickrazor.  You've now whined about every feat I took.  That's hilarious.  Seriously, that part above where I said the only one you hadn't gone after was EWP?  That was before I got here. 

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Please explain how that makes any sense to anyone. Just drop the Dwarvencraft, it doesn't even matter because no one is going to target your Item Familiar anyway, and that way you aren't bullshitting us with an item that was crafted by both dwarves and fey.

Dwarvencraft is simply an amount of quality... it does not require being made by dwarves, and simply represents one step up from Masterwork (though Dwarves created the techniques.  In fact, my Factotum made it himself.  Likewise, Feycraft simply requires working with the fey when you make it, and again, the Factotum did it himself.  And "Gnome Quickrazor" just means the weapon was invented and/or popularized by gnomes.  The whole weapon was done with the aid of magic telling him how to do it (Magecraft).  In other words, to avoid the names and just use the descriptions, the weapon is a very well crafted weapon that's especially lightweight, based on a design originally created by one culture but using smithing techniques of two other cultures to improve the quality.  Now, does a random person finding one of these things make much sense?  Maybe not.  But does a character whose specific abilities make him great at using all kinds of skills combining skills from various areas to make this weapon make sense?  I think so.

Does that make sense to you?  Or is the idea of combining the smithing and crafting ideas of various cultures completely nonsensical?

Meanwhile, if it doesn't matter, then you shouldn't care right?  I did it mostly to make sure that Adamantine wouldn't ignore the hardness of the weapon if it was attacked (which would happen, since the hardness went below 20 for feycraft), though I'm planning on using Augment Object on it once every 10 days anyway to double the hardness.  After all, the major drawback of Item Familiars is that losing it really sucks, so making sure it's as hard as possible to destroy is a good thing.

JaronK
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Kaelik on November 02, 2008, 01:10:28 AM
It's not that he can't keep up without Item Familiar.  It's that I specifically wanted a concept of a character that didn't have to depend much on found gear.  And at this point, you've complained about Item Familiars (which were in the initial rules given), Font of Inspiration (the only Factotum only feat), and Craft Wonderous Items (because other classes can't do it, it's too powerful, whatever, despite it actually being an example of a feat that classes with spell like abilities could take).  It starts looking like you're just going to whine unless I build something using really weak feats... the only one you haven't complained about is Exotic Weapon Proficiency, a feat that a lot of people consider to be sub par (since you could get around that with the Skillfull enchantment anyway).

And yet, if you used crafting for just getting items instead of getting double WBL, I wouldn't care. I similarly have not complained at all about your use of Font of Inspiration. To beat a dead horse, don't lie about what I have said.

There are thousands of feats, you can bet I won't complain about many of them, so maybe the fact that you choose a disproportionate number of feats that I do complain about is because you choose the cheesiest level of feats possible.

See?

Just answer the following question: Should you Factotum have more wealth in gear then everyone else in the party with no disadvantage except spending a feat?

Holy crap, you just went after EWP: Quickrazor.  You've now whined about every feat I took.  That's hilarious.  Seriously, that part above where I said the only one you hadn't gone after was EWP?  That was before I got here.

Please stop lying about what other people say. It's really annoying. Do I mind that you have a Quickrazor, or course not. I think it's an intelligent choice for anyone intending to build a character devoted to Iajitsu Focus. I complained solely about your use of an item crafted with two contradictory crafting methods.

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Dwarvencraft is simply an amount of quality... it does not require being made by dwarves, and simply represents one step up from Masterwork (though Dwarves created the techniques.  In fact, my Factotum made it himself.  Likewise, Feycraft simply requires working with the fey when you make it, and again, the Factotum did it himself.  And "Gnome Quickrazor" just means the weapon was invented and/or popularized by gnomes.  The whole weapon was done with the aid of magic telling him how to do it (Magecraft).  In other words, to avoid the names and just use the descriptions, the weapon is a very well crafted weapon that's especially lightweight, based on a design originally created by one culture but using smithing techniques of two other cultures to improve the quality.  Now, does a random person finding one of these things make much sense?  Maybe not.  But does a character whose specific abilities make him great at using all kinds of skills combining skills from various areas to make this weapon make sense?  I think so.

Does that make sense to you?  Or is the idea of combining the smithing and crafting ideas of various cultures completely nonsensical?

I have nothing against combining crafting methods with materials with specialty weapons.

I have a problem with an item that is both "lightweight and fragile" because it was constructed so as to be fragile, while simultaneously being constructed to be "stronger ad harder." I think that mutually contradicting crafting methods cannot be employed on the same weapon.

Furthermore, I think it's absolutely retarded that you justify crafting a feycraft item yourself under the assumption you ran into some random fey, had them enchant you, then they told you to do exactly what you wanted to do (craft an item for yourself) and then let you go on your way. All that bullshit just to get around the limitation that "feycraft items can only be made by fey or those under the supernatural influence of fey."

But that's the kind of bullshit that I just have to get used to, since there is not a single aspect of your character that isn't made of cheese.

EDIT: Tshern, can we get a final ruling on Item Familiar/Flaws?

And as regards my rogue, should I build a rogue who does what the factotum does only better? Or should I build him around hurling?
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Kaelik on November 02, 2008, 01:42:23 AM
Looking over some of what I have said, I have been a little more confrontational then is warranted.

I think this comes from the fact that more and more this game has been deviating from the type of game that I had envisioned it as, largely because JaronK finds only those games with the maximum exploitation to be worth playing.

As such, I have some propositions:

1) Item Familiars be at the very least strongly encouraged for everyone, possibly even a bonus feat given to everyone.

2) Flaws allowed, usual two max.

3) We ignore all the crazy dumpster diving and shit that JaronK has done, and we actually group pool similar suggestions for other characters if necessary so that all characters are similarly exploitative of the game.

4) We play through a WotC module of level 6 at least, with some general changes to make it a little harder, like feat changes and maybe smarter tactics.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Straw_Man on November 02, 2008, 01:52:52 AM

Perhaps set an optimisation level? Given the parameters nothing JaronK has done is illegal, and while the feats are powerful a.k.a. cheesy, could any OTHER class get as much from them? Isn't this a valid way of comparing the classes?
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: JaronK on November 02, 2008, 02:02:40 AM
And yet, if you used crafting for just getting items instead of getting double WBL, I wouldn't care. I similarly have not complained at all about your use of Font of Inspiration. To beat a dead horse, don't lie about what I have said.

You've talked plenty about FoI abuse.  It's even in the OP of this thread.  If I dropped all those other feats for FoIs, you'd be whining about that.

Meanwhile, what exactly do you think crafting feats are for?  They're for getting the gear you want and getting it cheaper than normal.  Is that strong?  Yes.  And the Factotum class gives you that.  At character creation, you tend to get the items you want anyway, so what you're actually saying is "if you used crafting for getting absolutely nothing instead of double WBL, I wouldn't care."  Yeah, I know.

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There are thousands of feats, you can bet I won't complain about many of them, so maybe the fact that you choose a disproportionate number of feats that I do complain about is because you choose the cheesiest level of feats possible.

Or maybe, just maybe, you came in here expecting to see the Factotum as a weak class, and not realizing that it was quite strong.  Now that you're seeing a perfectly standard one in action, you're suddenly seeing it being much stronger than you thought, and you're whining about it, which is exactly as expected.

You're like someone saying that Fighters can't beat even CR opponents and then crying cheese when someone pulls out Shock Trooper.  

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Just answer the following question: Should you Factotum have more wealth in gear then everyone else in the party with no disadvantage except spending a feat?

Two feats.  Two feats that anyone else in the party could take too, except that the rest wouldn't get nearly as much advantage out of CWI, because they don't have the incredible spell access of the Factotum.  You think they're so powerful?  Take them on your Rogue.  Except, of course, that one of them doesn't work for you.  Oops.  Gee, it's almost like you're finding a weakness of the class.

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Please stop lying about what other people say. It's really annoying. Do I mind that you have a Quickrazor, or course not. I think it's an intelligent choice for anyone intending to build a character devoted to Iajitsu Focus. I complained solely about your use of an item crafted with two contradictory crafting methods.

They're not contradictory, so yes, you're complaining about the weapon that I spent two feats to use (EWP and Item Familiar).  Complaining about the feat and complaining about what I got from the feat is pretty similar.

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I have nothing against combining crafting methods with materials with specialty weapons.

I have a problem with an item that is both "lightweight and fragile" because it was constructed so as to be fragile, while simultaneously being constructed to be "stronger ad harder." I think that mutually contradicting crafting methods cannot be employed on the same weapon.

Wasn't the whole folding of Katanas thing a way of combining metals that were strong but shatterable with more flexible but softer metal?  Same concept here.  Using techniques for making a weapon lighter weight, while combining them with techniques for making them harder, and getting something really good that removes some of the disadvantages of one of the techniques.

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Furthermore, I think it's absolutely retarded that you justify crafting a feycraft item yourself under the assumption you ran into some random fey, had them enchant you, then they told you to do exactly what you wanted to do (craft an item for yourself) and then let you go on your way. All that bullshit just to get around the limitation that "feycraft items can only be made by fey or those under the supernatural influence of fey."

Hey, you haven't asked about the backstory of the character yet.  I happen to like his backstory, actually, and it explains his eclectic set of abilities and his push for self reliance, in addition to the fey influence.

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But that's the kind of bullshit that I just have to get used to, since there is not a single aspect of your character that isn't made of cheese.

Right.  See, that's exactly what I was expecting coming into this.

"Factotums are weak"

"Here's proof they're not"

"But... that's cheesy!"

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And as regards my rogue, should I build a rogue who does what the factotum does only better? Or should I build him around hurling?

Built what you consider to be a good Rogue.  Not sure how you're doing what this Factotum is doing only better, though.  But isn't that the point?  To see how the classes work?

JaronK
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Kaelik on November 02, 2008, 02:21:53 AM
You've talked plenty about FoI abuse.  It's even in the OP of this thread.  If I dropped all those other feats for FoIs, you'd be whining about that.

I have talked about FoI abuse. I have not at any point decried your usage of FoI.

Meanwhile, what exactly do you think crafting feats are for?  They're for getting the gear you want and getting it cheaper than normal.

So in other words, you refuse to answer the question.

Or maybe, just maybe, you came in here expecting to see the Factotum as a weak class, and not realizing that it was quite strong.  Now that you're seeing a perfectly standard one in action, you're suddenly seeing it being much stronger than you thought, and you're whining about it, which is exactly as expected.

"Perfectly Standard?" Are you smoking crack? Your entire character would be a piece of shit if we took away even one of the three obscure little books that I have never even seen that you absolutely rely on. Hell, you've probably never even seen one of those books.

Your build is so far from "standard" that not even a single aspect of it could be called Standard at all.

You're like someone saying that Fighters can't beat even CR opponents and then crying cheese when someone pulls out Shock Trooper.

A fighter can't beat even CRed opponents even with Shocktrooper, because they will kill him without ever letting him charge them.

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Two feats.  Two feats that anyone else in the party could take too, except that the rest wouldn't get nearly as much advantage out of CWI, because they don't have the incredible spell access of the Factotum.  You think they're so powerful?  Take them on your Rogue.  Except, of course, that one of them doesn't work for you.  Oops.  Gee, it's almost like you're finding a weakness of the class.

It's almost like we choose only classes that can't craft and banned all the classes that can craft. Weird how after banning the normal way that people get crafted items, abnormal ways that aren't often used look better.

Now how about answering the question instead of diverting.

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They're not contradictory, so yes, you're complaining about the weapon that I spent two feats to use (EWP and Item Familiar).  Complaining about the feat and complaining about what I got from the feat is pretty similar.

1) They are contradictory.

2) I am not complaining about you using an Adamatium Feycraft Gome Quickrazor. I am not complaining about you using a Adamtium Dwarvencraft Gnome Quickrazor. Only a Feycraft/Dwarvencraft. How on earth is that complaining about you using a Quickrazor? Oh right, it's not, you just wanted to lie about what I said so that you could (falsely) claim that I objected to all your feats. Stop lying.

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Right.  See, that's exactly what I was expecting coming into this.

"Factotums are weak"

"Here's proof they're not"

"But... that's cheesy!"

"Commoners are weak"

"Here's proof they aren't"
*Candle of Invocation*
"But that's cheesy!"

Yes cheese is cheesy, no matter how many times you explain that any DM that wouldn't allow you to have twice the wealth of the rest of the party is a mean old cheater.

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Built what you consider to be a good Rogue.  Not sure how you're doing what this Factotum is doing only better, though.  But isn't that the point?  To see how the classes work?

I thought the point was to demonstrate the effectiveness of the classes in games that are likely to be played, you have pretty much completely thrown that out the window.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Omen of Peace on November 02, 2008, 02:26:22 AM
I avoided this thread at first because I thought it would just be flames... The flames are there but also some constructive stuff so here a few remarks (but I'm no one for the purpose of this challenge so feel free to ignore me).

- I trust Tshern completely. Go Tshern ! :D
(And good luck with the hornets' nest :smirk)

- JaronK, I generally respect your opinions but the +XP option of Item Familiar is absolutely ridiculous (IF is the second "worst" feat in the game IMO, right after Leadership). If it's taken out, my distaste for the feat goes down to not-quite-unbearable levels.
Have you considered still taking CWI and starting one level below to craft whatever you wanted ?

Or if everybody ends up having it, people should use the PHB2 online article that lets you give your own XP to the crafter. And everyone ends up with the same stupidly inflated WBL.

- on the other hand if I see a Rogue with epic feats...

- Dwarvencraft Feycraft is nonsensical but fine by the rules. Let it be...
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Ubernoob on November 02, 2008, 02:32:48 AM
- on the other hand if I see a Rogue with epic feats...
Should PTWF have been an epic feat in the first place?

TWF = Teh suck.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: JaronK on November 02, 2008, 03:16:43 AM
You've talked plenty about FoI abuse.  It's even in the OP of this thread.  If I dropped all those other feats for FoIs, you'd be whining about that.

I have talked about FoI abuse. I have not at any point decried your usage of FoI.

And yet, you were whining about FoI abuse at the start of this whole thing, before even seeing the characters.

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Meanwhile, what exactly do you think crafting feats are for?  They're for getting the gear you want and getting it cheaper than normal.

So in other words, you refuse to answer the question.

No, I answered it.  I answered it completely, you just left that out because it wasn't the answer you wanted to hear.

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"Perfectly Standard?" Are you smoking crack? Your entire character would be a piece of shit if we took away even one of the three obscure little books that I have never even seen that you absolutely rely on. Hell, you've probably never even seen one of those books.

Your build is so far from "standard" that not even a single aspect of it could be called Standard at all.

You've evidently never seen a Factotum before.  Which books haven't you seen?  Dungeonscape, perhaps?  Races of Stone?  Unearthed Arcana (which is SRD!)? DMG II?  Well, I'll grant you the character sucks without Dungeonscape at least...

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A fighter can't beat even CRed opponents even with Shocktrooper, because they will kill him without ever letting him charge them.

...seriously?  Check out the Commoner I made for the arena.  He can take even CR opponents easily.  Now, make that as a Fighter and it only gets better.

I can't believe you're actually claiming Fighters can't beat even CRed opponents.  That's just dumb.

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It's almost like we choose only classes that can't craft and banned all the classes that can craft. Weird how after banning the normal way that people get crafted items, abnormal ways that aren't often used look better.

Or weird how the class that can make his own gear gets better gear.  Yeah, that's... weird?

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Now how about answering the question instead of diverting.

It's perfectly fair that a class that's a perfectly good crafting class can end up with better gear because he makes his own gear.

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"Commoners are weak"

"Here's proof they aren't"
*Candle of Invocation*
"But that's cheesy!"

Yes cheese is cheesy, no matter how many times you explain that any DM that wouldn't allow you to have twice the wealth of the rest of the party is a mean old cheater.

Actually, the Commoner I made didn't use Candles.  He used Shocktrooper, Spirited Charge, and a high initiative.  And no, it's not cheating to make use of class abilities. 

But yes, now you want to nerf the fact that Factotums can craft gear with Craft Wonderous Items.  And we're back to "Factotums are weak because I would nerf them!"

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I thought the point was to demonstrate the effectiveness of the classes in games that are likely to be played, you have pretty much completely thrown that out the window.

Once again... this is the character as designed for an actual game, whether you like that or not.  I know you can't accept it because it destroys your entire arguement, but this character is well within the defined limits of this challenge.

JaronK
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Tshern on November 02, 2008, 03:43:39 AM
- I trust Tshern completely. Go Tshern ! :D
(And good luck with the hornets' nest :smirk)
Back in the day in the junior officer school we had a training where we were issued three full clips of real ammunition. We were issued a pair and we charged and shot down emerging targets. At one point I had a look at my pair who was around 30 feet away from me. He was crawling with safety off and his barrel was aimed straight at my face. I am feeling more confident about this game...

In general, I am not against Dwarvencraft and Feycraft. If a person who is neither a fey or dwarf crafts a weapon and is able to combine the best of both worlds, why would he not do it? The same way vikings combied German arms to their war techniques and Finns used the best sides of American and Russian weapons for their assault rifles. Only makes sense for a smart character, that a Factotum with a high intelligence score definitely is.

Edit: Sorry about the Finnish example, I did not mean to sound patriotic, but it was the only one I knew for sure without double-checking. Damn alcohol.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Kaelik on November 02, 2008, 04:05:45 AM
No, I answered it.  I answered it completely, you just left that out because it wasn't the answer you wanted to hear.

No you didn't. I would love to see either answer, but you won't give me either one.

You've evidently never seen a Factotum before.  Which books haven't you seen?  Dungeonscape, perhaps?  Races of Stone?  Unearthed Arcana (which is SRD!)? DMG II?  Well, I'll grant you the character sucks without Dungeonscape at least...

How about a 3.0 campaign specific book you never even seen, much less owned. How about yes, Races of Stone and DMG II. I suppose you actually buy a book filled with shit just so that you can save yourself a feat on some weird crafted crap, so what. Normal people don't.

...seriously?  Check out the Commoner I made for the arena.  He can take even CR opponents easily.  Now, make that as a Fighter and it only gets better.

Seriously, you still automatically loose to a CR 16 Planetar who you never see. Or automatically 50% of the time to a Balor at level 20 when you get stunned every round, and with a good chance of losing the rest of the time. You don't even know that most of these characters are there until after they kill you.

I don't know why you think that every fight starts with rolling Init from 10ft away.

Or weird how the class that can make his own gear gets better gear.  Yeah, that's... weird?

Weird how every class can get the same thing.

It's perfectly fair that a class that's a perfectly good crafting class can end up with better gear because he makes his own gear.

When you say "better" do you mean of greater value? Are you stating that you should receive no other disadvantages, like lost XP?

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Actually, the Commoner I made didn't use Candles.  He used Shocktrooper, Spirited Charge, and a high initiative.  And no, it's not cheating to make use of class abilities.

Yes, he wasn't cheesy (okay, the cheese wasn't very bad), he was also weak. My point is simple, you refuse to accept that cheese exists.

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But yes, now you want to nerf the fact that Factotums can craft gear with Craft Wonderous Items.  And we're back to "Factotums are weak because I would nerf them!"

Everyone can get crafted gear. Anyone can get it.

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Once again... this is the character as designed for an actual game, whether you like that or not.  I know you can't accept it because it destroys your entire arguement, but this character is well within the defined limits of this challenge.

1) Can you please spell argument correctly just once.

2) Can be played in one specific game =/= normally playable.

I can link you to a game dedicated to playing characters that use Gate loops, and are invincible. That doesn't mean that those characters are playable in real games.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Omen of Peace on November 02, 2008, 04:11:19 AM
Seriously, you still automatically loose to a CR 16 Planetar who you never see.
[...]
1) Can you please spell argument correctly just once.
(emphasis added)
When you make that horrible, horrible mistake you loose the right to complain about orthograph. ;)

---
Seriously, JaronK, lose the IF. I very much doubt everybody is biased against the Factotum here so respect the vote.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Straw_Man on November 02, 2008, 04:13:41 AM
Kaelik you started this thread, but this is getting increasing confrontational. will either you or Tshern set an optimisation level please? I would like to see the actual 'run' of the classes, instead of debates about cheese.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Tshern on November 02, 2008, 04:15:21 AM
Rather him than me, I am trying to keep my hands out of the rules. When the game kicks off I'll be running it, but that's it. I don't want to be involved in anything that might actually affect the tiers of optimization.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: JaronK on November 02, 2008, 04:45:04 AM
- JaronK, I generally respect your opinions but the +XP option of Item Familiar is absolutely ridiculous (IF is the second "worst" feat in the game IMO, right after Leadership). If it's taken out, my distaste for the feat goes down to not-quite-unbearable levels.
Have you considered still taking CWI and starting one level below to craft whatever you wanted ?

The issue with that one is that we don't know how much exp we have past the exact point of level 10... I mean, do I level up halfway through or something?  Or, since you're rarely at the actual point of the leveling, do I have enough Exp to have shot up anyway?  Plus, there's the whole thing of "if you're lower level, you gain exp faster and thus get it back really fast, and thus might only be behind for short periods."  I wanted the 10% option just to be done with it, you know?  So we can say "whatever, crafting done."  Besides, starting the game right before the adventure hides the other thing about crafting, namely that you don't have to deal with getting random gear and then having to sell it at half price to get the gear you need, and thus actually being below WBL when you have the exact gear you want.

Meanwhile, starting a level lower means not having the same wealth by level, which defeats the purpose entirely.  Now, could I just drop CWI entirely?  Sure.  I'd probably replace it with Darkstalker, which would obviously help, and my Dex and Int would go down by 2, plus I'd probably lose Blurstrike on the Familiar.  It wouldn't be the same character concept (and it wouldn't be the character

And yes, if I were doing this as part of a real party and using the PHBII option, I'd be crafting for my whole party as well, which I could do here... but it would hide how much contribution is coming from whom.  I mean, sure, if people want they can say I crafted their gear and they gave me Exp, and while it'll make things harder as we can't say whether the Rogue's contribution was because he got so much extra gear or not, it'll simply show off one ability.

I mean, the character I made uses nothing dodgy.  There's no weird rules interpretations or even tricks I'd consider broken (like casting Major Creation as a Standard Action and dumping Black Lotus all over the enemy, which is a perfectly valid Factotum trick).  It's just a Factotum that's independant.  Okay, Item Familiar is strong, but I never thought for a moment it would be disallowed for anyone else, and it's totally within the challenge.

But walking into this I was expecting that if I came in with a character that was actually strong in a thread specifically designed to see if Factotums are strong, I'd get a whole bunch of whining that it wasn't fair despite completely being within the rules of the challenge.  And what did I get?  Exactly that.  Which is crap.

JaronK
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: JaronK on November 02, 2008, 04:49:29 AM
Seriously, JaronK, lose the IF. I very much doubt everybody is biased against the Factotum here so respect the vote.

I thought the DM had said it was okay.  If he says no, I'll remove it.  It's conceptually important, but in the end I can always trade it (and the 10kgp spent on it) for a mundane version of the weapon and a ring of +10 Iajuitsu Focus or something, plus Darkstalker.  We need to see about flaws too.

The issue here, however, is that Kaelik has at this point spoken negatively, sometimes in a roundabout way, about every single feat I've taken.  Drop IF, and I'd put good odds he'll keep whining about CWI.  Swap that for Fonts, and he'll cry Font abuse.  Swap out all the feats for Skill Focus: Basketweaving and he'll still be whining that Dwarvencraft Feycraft items are horrible, because using construction techniques from multiple cultures is evidently impossible.  That suggests that this isn't about the Item Familiar at all... it's about him wanting an excuse for why the Factotum he's seeing isn't a weak character at all.

JaronK
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: JaronK on November 02, 2008, 04:55:46 AM
No, I answered it.  I answered it completely, you just left that out because it wasn't the answer you wanted to hear.

No you didn't. I would love to see either answer, but you won't give me either one.

I answered it again in the same post. 

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How about a 3.0 campaign specific book you never even seen, much less owned. How about yes, Races of Stone and DMG II. I suppose you actually buy a book filled with shit just so that you can save yourself a feat on some weird crafted crap, so what. Normal people don't.

Ah right.  "Normal People don't have the books I don't have."  Newsflash: normal people don't have Dungeonscape either.  Nor do they have D&D books.  You're arguing about D&D on the internet: you're not normal.  However, gamers who have Dungeonscape are just as likely to have other random books.

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Seriously, you still automatically loose to a CR 16 Planetar who you never see. Or automatically 50% of the time to a Balor at level 20 when you get stunned every round, and with a good chance of losing the rest of the time. You don't even know that most of these characters are there until after they kill you.

Please explain how the Planetar kills the Commoner I listed.  Note that the Commoner wins initative, and is virtually gaurenteed to kill in one hit (and he WILL hit).  For that matter, please explain how the CR 20 Balor kills the 17th level Commoner, again when he loses initiative most of the time.

Or are you thinking only arena fighting where the Commoner is by himself?  In which case, he knows the enemies are there.  Or is it in a group situation, where someone else can spot, and the Commoner just charges?

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I don't know why you think that every fight starts with rolling Init from 10ft away.

I don't.  Check out the flight speed on the Roc.

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Or weird how the class that can make his own gear gets better gear.  Yeah, that's... weird?

Weird how every class can get the same thing.

...please explain how a Rogue can make his own magical gear.  Note I was talking about Craft Wonderous Items.

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When you say "better" do you mean of greater value? Are you stating that you should receive no other disadvantages, like lost XP?

I accounted for that in the character.

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Yes, he wasn't cheesy (okay, the cheese wasn't very bad), he was also weak. My point is simple, you refuse to accept that cheese exists.

I fully accept that cheese exists.   However, I do NOT claim that everything that opposes my point of view is cheesy, ESPECIALLY in a thread specifically designed to test power levels of characters.  Nor do I claim cheese after I personally set the rules of the challenge.

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Everyone can get crafted gear. Anyone can get it.

You're assuming all parties have someone else in them to do it for them.  Not everyone takes those feats... I know I regularly don't (but with Factotums, I do).  Rogues, for example, can't do it without help.

JaronK
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Omen of Peace on November 02, 2008, 06:15:13 AM
(like casting Major Creation as a Standard Action and dumping Black Lotus all over the enemy, which is a perfectly valid Factotum trick)
I think you mean Minor Creation. Major would require a Greater Shadow Conjuration which you wouldn't get at the levels tested here.

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Okay, Item Familiar is strong, but I never thought for a moment it would be disallowed for anyone else, and it's totally within the challenge.
That's where we disagree. I know you said your DM has allowed it, but honestly no DM I've played with has ever ok'ed it as-is. And I've played in some pretty overpowered games, often online (which implies that people don't care about the other players... and try to sneak IF in).

I realize it's even better for Factotums than their competitors here, but it doesn't mean it's against the Factotum if it's not allowed. Anyway, I've spoken my piece and I'll leave it at that.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: JaronK on November 02, 2008, 06:24:37 AM
I think you mean Minor Creation. Major would require a Greater Shadow Conjuration which you wouldn't get at the levels tested here.

Nope, I mean Major, and I didn't mean the Shadow version.  Spell Like Abilities are always Standard Actions unless otherwise noted, so all Factotum spells are standard actions.  Yehaw!  Of course, that's a negative sometimes (Wraithstrike) but a positive other times (Animate Dead, Major Creation).  And when it's a positive, sometimes it's a REALLY big positive.  But I was avoiding such tricks, and sticking to what I thought was fair.

Quote
That's where we disagree. I know you said your DM has allowed it, but honestly no DM I've played with has ever ok'ed it as-is. And I've played in some pretty overpowered games, often online (which implies that people don't care about the other players... and try to sneak IF in).

I realize it's even better for Factotums than their competitors here, but it doesn't mean it's against the Factotum if it's not allowed. Anyway, I've spoken my piece and I'll leave it at that.

Well, if the DM says no, I'll remove it.  I'd have done so already if I though Kae would be happy with just that, but if he wants me to completely change every feat until the Factotum becomes suitably weak (and considering his shots against every feat I took, even if some were roundabout), I think that might simply not help.  I get the funny feeling that once Item Familiar goes, Craft Wonderous Item will have to go next, and I can't replace them with Fonts, and eventually what I'll get is whatever Kae thought was weak enough that he gets to claim victory.  But what's the point?

JaronK
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Straw_Man on November 02, 2008, 06:47:43 AM


Well, if the DM says no, I'll remove it.  I'd have done so already if I though Kae would be happy with just that, but if he wants me to completely change every feat until the Factotum becomes suitably weak (and considering his shots against every feat I took, even if some were roundabout), I think that might simply not help.  I get the funny feeling that once Item Familiar goes, Craft Wonderous Item will have to go next, and I can't replace them with Fonts, and eventually what I'll get is whatever Kae thought was weak enough that he gets to claim victory.  But what's the point?

JaronK

  Why not try it and see. The majority of posters here seem to have issues with Item Familiar only, thus far I've only seen a single poster take objection at CWI.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Omen of Peace on November 02, 2008, 07:00:54 AM
Nope, I mean Major, and I didn't mean the Shadow version.  Spell Like Abilities are always Standard Actions unless otherwise noted, so all Factotum spells are standard actions.
Oops, my bad. For some reason I thought the Factotum ability had a clause that said the durations were as the spell.
It seems my brainspace is too limited : when I re-learn one part of D&D I forget another !

Still, Minor Creation would serve you just as well.

Even with a few changes I suspect your Factotum will be more rather than less optimized than its competitors, so...
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: JaronK on November 02, 2008, 07:46:15 AM
Oops, my bad. For some reason I thought the Factotum ability had a clause that said the durations were as the spell.
It seems my brainspace is too limited : when I re-learn one part of D&D I forget another !

Still, Minor Creation would serve you just as well.

Even with a few changes I suspect your Factotum will be more rather than less optimized than its competitors, so...

Well, I guess we should just see what everyone comes out with, and I'll adjust up or down on the optimization depending on what they use... though honestly, I'm still up in the air about doing this in the first place, considering some of what's going on.  But again, I wasn't planning to do the Major or Minor creation stunts... sure, they're instant kills for whole encounters, but then I'd be accused of being too cheesy.  After all, Factotums can't do anything impressive with their actions that other people can't do, or it's cheese.

These sorts of challenges are always hard, because you're expected to lose, and if you win, you can't win by too much or it's cheesy.  So you have to win by a very little amount, or else it doesn't count.

Still, if Tshern says no to the familiar, I can drop it... but if that doesn't satisfy Kaelik, what more do I have to do?

JaronK
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Dictum Mortuum on November 02, 2008, 10:12:28 AM
I'm against item familiar, as it is ridiculously good, solely for the +xp thing. However craft wondrous item is not all that bad.
Kaelik, he is not going to be more optimized because of some wealth more. I mean - what, he loses gloves of dexterity and the hunting bat? Maybe some more? Blindfold, too? Big deal. The black lotus extract trick was mentioned earlier, which a factotum can pull off naked.

Hey, just wanted to say --

omg people! give up already. Play the game for fun, stop trying to prove stuff that are not even important. I mean, who cares if factotum is tier 3 or 1 or whatever :p

I hope that after 5 pages of flames (or ~3 to be more accurate) you are still having fun.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: JaronK on November 02, 2008, 10:42:19 AM
Losing the Item Familiar, by the way, would just mean losing Blurstrike and Eager off the weapon, saving nearly 10kgp... the +1 would be dropped, but the weapon is Adamantine anyway.  And of course that money would go right back into a ring of +10 Iajuitsu Focus.  Losing Craft Wonderous Item at that point would actually have very little effect, probably just droping the +1 and Warning off the armour spikes (another 8kgp down), and perhaps dropping some of the bonus on a few items.

So, lowered initiative (but it's still very high), slightly lower stats, and not much else, but it would free up two feats.  It's not actually doing THAT much, other than making the character the way I want it.

If I were actually trying to optimize like crazy, I'd be using Greater Manyshot with Cunning Surge or something, possibly with Master of Poisons to make good use of Minor Creation for 10 hours of any poison from a single dose (which is not nearly as abusive as using Major Creation to dump literally thousands of doses on an entire encounter at long range).  Vaporize encounters left right and center, on anyone not poison immune (and if they are immune, they're often undead... why hello thar, opportunistic piety!).  There's a materials cost of 1 dose per day, but I can craft it which reduces the cost significantly.

So yeah, I consider this to just be a well rounded flexible Factotum, not anything over the top.  But again, I can lose the Item Familiar if the DM says as much... and I don't have to turn into archer of death.

JaronK
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Ubernoob on November 02, 2008, 07:09:56 PM
If I were actually trying to optimize like crazy, I'd be using Greater Manyshot with Cunning Surge or something,
You don't actually have enough feats to make that a viable build decision.  Perhaps you should just buy a bunch of least martial maneuver items instead to use the standard actions?
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Tshern on November 02, 2008, 07:25:18 PM
On the issue of using Major creation:
Quote from: SRD
A spell-like ability takes the same amount of time to complete as the spell that it mimics (usually 1 standard action) unless otherwise stated. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell
Emphasis mine.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Kaelik on November 02, 2008, 08:17:46 PM
Tshern, can we just get a ruling for Item Familiar/Flaws?

I know you want to stay out of making the rules, but JaronK has said several times that he will never take it off unless you say to.

And then can you please tell him that we are playing a level 5 game.

I just need a ruling on Item Familiar/Flaws to build my characters, and then decide which one I want to play.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Tshern on November 02, 2008, 09:04:42 PM
I am allowing the Item familiar and flaws alike. Sure, they are good for Factotums, but as ubernoob elaborated, they are useful, sometimes even moreso, for all characters.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: JaronK on November 02, 2008, 10:56:29 PM
On the issue of using Major creation:
Quote from: SRD
A spell-like ability takes the same amount of time to complete as the spell that it mimics (usually 1 standard action) unless otherwise stated. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell
Emphasis mine.

Whoa, that's changed from the PHB then.  Interesting.

And yes, Ubernoob, I could have gone with Greater Manyshot (and even had room for two Fonts and Master of Poisons, with flaws).  Though honestly, because I don't depend on precision damage, Manyshot alone would have been enough.

JaronK
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Ubernoob on November 02, 2008, 11:02:08 PM
On the issue of using Major creation:
Quote from: SRD
A spell-like ability takes the same amount of time to complete as the spell that it mimics (usually 1 standard action) unless otherwise stated. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell
Emphasis mine.

Whoa, that's changed from the PHB then.  Interesting.

And yes, Ubernoob, I could have gone with Greater Manyshot (and even had room for two Fonts and Master of Poisons, with flaws).  Though honestly, because I don't depend on precision damage, Manyshot alone would have been enough.

JaronK
Manyshot is DAMN feat intensive for a factotum.  Bad for this exercise.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Tshern on November 02, 2008, 11:07:17 PM
I once had to check that for Iron Siege purposes and I was very surprised to see that as well, that's why I figured quoting it here might be in order so we'll avoid the possible misunderstandings.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: JaronK on November 02, 2008, 11:52:42 PM
Good to know... Wraithstrike for me!

Oh, and Tshern... here's an interesting one for you.  To get a Hunting Bat big enough to ride, it had to be advanced by 1 HD, making it Large at 5HD.  Then I War Trained it, which made it 6HD.

So, it's gained two HD and a feat.  Where should the two skill points go, and what feat should it be?  I can chose (putting the points into skills he already has of course, and picking any feat) or you can... it's your call.

Also, if you decide to change your mind on the Item Familiar, I do understand.  I'll go by your ruling either way.  Obviously, for the campaign I designed the character for I prefer it.

@Uber:  It's three feats to get regular Manyshot, which is enough to do the job.  This challenge now has flaws, so I've got 5 feats to work with by level 5!  It's hardly a strain.

JaronK
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Tshern on November 03, 2008, 12:15:23 AM
You pick the feat and invest the skills to ones he already has. And Item familiar can stay, it is not especially incredible for Factotums the way Runestaffs are for Sorcerers...
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Ubernoob on November 03, 2008, 12:34:50 AM
@Uber:  It's three feats to get regular Manyshot, which is enough to do the job.  This challenge now has flaws, so I've got 5 feats to work with by level 5!  It's hardly a strain.

JaronK
Have you ever taken an entry level economics class?
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: JaronK on November 03, 2008, 01:02:15 AM
Yes Uber, I have.  Which is not in fact relevant here.  Spending 3/5 of one of my resources to be quite strong is not a bad thing, nor is it a significant strain.

And Tshern, here's the mount:  http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=89745

I put the two extra points in Hide, mostly to help make up for the -5 to hide he got from changing size, and the bonus feat went into Improved Flight.  I assume that's reasonable.  He does still have Weapon Finesse despite that being useless for a large bat, but it's a standard feat that all Hunting Bats get.

JaronK
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Ubernoob on November 03, 2008, 01:04:46 AM
Yes Uber, I have.  Which is not in fact relevant here.  Spending 3/5 of one of my resources to be quite strong is not a bad thing, nor is it a significant strain.
I'll just assume your perceptions limit you more than mine then.  No point debating with the close minded.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Omen of Peace on November 03, 2008, 01:11:46 AM
On the issue of using Major creation:
Quote from: SRD
A spell-like ability takes the same amount of time to complete as the spell that it mimics (usually 1 standard action) unless otherwise stated. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell
Emphasis mine.
Or maybe that's where I got the rule from.

OoP, soooo confused at times...

edit: ubernoob, you can cut the sniping.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Kaelik on November 03, 2008, 01:21:27 AM
JaronK, I think you might need to make that mount sheet public.

And do you have a level 5 sheet yet?
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: JaronK on November 03, 2008, 03:36:51 AM
Working on level 5.

JaronK
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Kaelik on November 03, 2008, 03:51:17 AM
Sweet.

Anyone have any objections to a Ring that casts Grease on Command at CL 2?

It would also be my Item Familiar, so for the level 10 test I'd theoretically be handing out greases every round.

Just want to know what's too crazy.

Also, it doesn't say anywhere in the item description, but say I have the Shadow Hands, is there any limit to me using Cloak of Deception every round?

It doesn't give any recovery mechanic, nor does it limit itself to 1/round like the scripts.

Anyone know how those work?

EDIT: Okay, so haven't finished, and this is only one of the two I might play. Still waiting to finish off gear based on grease rig and shadow hands.

Shelly. (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=89759)

And mount. (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=89793)
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: JaronK on November 03, 2008, 06:14:39 AM
Anyone have any objections to a Ring that casts Grease on Command at CL 2?

I don't think anyone has said anything about custom items, but that would be Tshern's call.  Personally, I was avoiding them.

Quote
Also, it doesn't say anywhere in the item description, but say I have the Shadow Hands, is there any limit to me using Cloak of Deception every round?

That I can answer.  It just gives you the manuever, exactly as if you'd gained it via a feat or something.  Since you have no recovery mechanic, it would be once per encounter.

Though I have to say... whining about my optimization level and then busting out with a potion thrower Strongheart Halfling Rogue with a Wartrained Fleshraker while asking for a custom item of at will Grease... seriously?  Anyway, it's hard to see where your bonuses are coming from, such as the +10 to UMD that you have.  I'm assuming it's the Item Familiar, but it's hard to tell.

And check your weight limits.  With a strength of 6, you're probably encumbered just wearing the backpack, the armour, and the buckler.

JaronK
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Kaelik on November 03, 2008, 06:34:54 AM
Though I have to say... whining about my optimization level and then busting out with a potion thrower Strongheart Halfling Rogue with a Wartrained Fleshraker while asking for a custom item of at will Grease... seriously?

I direct you to this post (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2460.msg77381#msg77381).
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: JaronK on November 03, 2008, 07:00:06 AM
Yeah... that doesn't actually answer anything.

You've taken everything I've done, and then gone off the deep end with even greater optimization everywhere.  I pick a strong core race... you pick argueably the strongest setting specific rogue race available.  I make a strong version of a somewhat generic Factotum type, you go for a specific type of Rogue that never sees play.  I get a reasonable thematic mount, you go for a Warbeast Fleshraker.  I occasionally use the MIC combining rules to combine existing magic items and an item familiar that gives me skill ranks, you go for a custom item version of an item familiar that spams grease in addition to the skill ranks.  Heck, I use an item familiar to get a few more skill ranks and be less dependant on found gear, you make a character who can't function without it.

Now, that's extreme optimization, well above anything I'd even consider.  And I know that perhaps some people play that way (I don't, but that's fine).  But considering you've been complaining about even things like combining Feycraft and Dwarvencraft, going so far off the deep end of optimization seems strange to say the least.

But none of that answers the questions... can your character even carry the backpack and his armour without going over wieght limit?  See, one of the reasons I call the potion thrower Rogue something that no one plays is because it's only a thought excercise... in actual play it doesn't work.  In this case, you can't carry your gear.  Notice it's a move action to draw anything out of your Haversack, so you can't keep all your potions in it if you plan to use any in combat.  You'll have to keep a few out for throwing... and each one is 1 pound.  Also, where are your Item Familiar stored ranks actually placed, considering you can only invest 3 points of any given skill, and you haven't mentioned which powers it uses?

JaronK
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Straw_Man on November 03, 2008, 08:17:46 AM

Interesting - a farcical response to the perceived cheese by getting cheesier. Well as long as its legal s'all cool. At the end of the day I still want to see how a Factotum compares.

And as an unbiased observer I at least will be looking at the optimisation level on the builds.

When does the show start gents?
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: JaronK on November 03, 2008, 01:38:38 PM
Well, here's my level 5 version so far.  It's... well, it's the 5th level of the earlier 10th level.  Same mount though.  It's clearly a bit more sane than the Rogue, including a mount that's actually a domesticated animal and that the character has some chance of knowing about... and yes, weight limits are respected.

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=89732

JaronK
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Kaelik on November 03, 2008, 03:39:00 PM
Wait, so all that bullcrap about RAW!RAW!RAW! and how depriving you of even a single bit of cheese is cheating in favor of the rogue, and then you all of  sudden switch tracks, drop Item Familiar, and complain about, well, my entire character sheet.

That's entertaining.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Kaelik on November 03, 2008, 04:53:52 PM
...to the perceived cheese by getting cheesier...


And as an unbiased observer I at least will be looking at the optimisation level on the builds.

You don't come off as an unbiased observer to me.

Please explain how what I have is cheesier then his level 10 build (since his level 5 build decided to drop Item Familiar, crafting, ect.)
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Omen of Peace on November 03, 2008, 05:20:14 PM
I sense a symmetry here...

(Oh, and next on the channel: use-activated Wraithstrike for our Warblade ? ;))
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Ubernoob on November 03, 2008, 05:21:29 PM
I sense a symmetry here...

(Oh, and next on the channel: use-activated Wraithstrike for our Warblade ? ;))
Why?  Emerald razor is good enough already.  Warblades need those swift actions.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Omen of Peace on November 03, 2008, 05:42:23 PM
Because Emerald Razor is only one attack... Making all attacks in a full-attack touch attacks is better than most boosts and you know it.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Ubernoob on November 03, 2008, 05:49:45 PM
Because Emerald Razor is only one attack... Making all attacks in a full-attack touch attacks is better than most boosts and you know it.
Eh, it's only damage.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Omen of Peace on November 03, 2008, 06:01:46 PM
Ok, last post since we're veering off-topic. In the "OoP can't think straight" series, I give you my last post.
...
The point of use-activated is that it doesn't take an action. You attack with the sword, Wraithstrike activates.

As for "only damage"...  :shrug
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Ubernoob on November 03, 2008, 06:09:23 PM
Ok, last post since we're veering off-topic. In the "OoP can't think straight" series, I give you my last post.
...
The point of use-activated is that it doesn't take an action. You attack with the sword, Wraithstrike activates.

As for "only damage"...  :shrug
Wouldn't you still need to burn a swift action on it?  For something that activates every time you strike (not costing actions) we'd be going into ad hoc pricing, wouldn't we?
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Omen of Peace on November 03, 2008, 06:17:22 PM
No.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Kaelik on November 03, 2008, 06:45:46 PM
You know Omen, if it weren't for Item Familiar, we wouldn't even be having this discussion about grease (which I'm probably not going to do because it's not worth it at level 5, and I'll be blinking at level 10).

But I'm not the one who insisted that a sentient item that breaks the skill RNG was so absolutely essential to my character that not including it is cheating.

But yes, I think that having an Item Familiar Sword that casts Wrathstrike on it's owner is exactly the type of thing that you allow when you allow Item Familiars.

Or are we nerfing all the parts of Item Familiar that don't benefit Factotums more then other classes?
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: TheWordSlinger on November 03, 2008, 07:44:08 PM
I've updated for flaws. link again (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=89294).
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Ubernoob on November 03, 2008, 08:31:50 PM
I'd like to alert everyone that I have updated my sig.  Act accordingly.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Kaelik on November 03, 2008, 08:33:20 PM
I've updated for flaws. link again (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=89294).

Are you going the Combat Brute + Shocktrooper route?
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: JaronK on November 03, 2008, 09:51:49 PM
Wait, so all that bullcrap about RAW!RAW!RAW! and how depriving you of even a single bit of cheese is cheating in favor of the rogue, and then you all of  sudden switch tracks, drop Item Familiar, and complain about, well, my entire character sheet.

That's entertaining.

No Kaelik.

First of all, note that my other build took the Item Familiar at 6.  I didn't drop it, it simply isn't in the build yet.

Second, your build isn't RAW.  It can't even carry it's own gear without being encumbered, but you seem to have just hand waved weight away... something you shouldn't do on a strength 6 halfling.

Third, I'm not saying it's wrong for you to optimize.   If Tshern says it's kosher, it is.  I'm saying it's hypocritical for you to criticize me for practical optimization, then go off the deep end and optimize like crazy.

JaronK
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Kaelik on November 03, 2008, 10:10:39 PM
First of all, note that my other build took the Item Familiar at 6.  I didn't drop it, it simply isn't in the build yet.

No, you quite clearly had it at level 3, and in fact, you could not have invested as many skill points as you did if you had taken it at level 6. So either Uber was right in that you had too many skill points invested in your familiar, or you had it at level 3.

Quote from: JaronK
Second, your build isn't RAW.  It can't even carry it's own gear without being encumbered, but you seem to have just hand waved weight away... something you shouldn't do on a strength 6 halfling.

Wrong, I quite clearly can carry my armor, my buckler, and my haversack, weighing 6.25, 2.5, and 5 pounds respectively, all at once. It limits the number of flasks I can have actively on my body to 5, but that is why I have my haversack attached to my mount, giving me room for 10 flasks without becoming even lightly encumbered.

Care to try again?

Quote from: JaronK
Third, I'm not saying it's wrong for you to optimize.   If Tshern says it's kosher, it is.  I'm saying it's hypocritical for you to criticize me for practical optimization, then go off the deep end and optimize like crazy.

Please, Please, Someone Please explain to me how what JaronK did was "practical optimization" but what I did was "even more cheese" or "off the deep end."

Please, Was it taking feats that provide nearly no benefit? Was it combining a Halfling with Hurling? Was it Item Familiar? (God knows I can't see how that makes a difference, since JaronK demanded it be allowed.) Was it taking the Halfling Racial sub level with my Halfling?

Please, someone tell me what grievous sin I have committed that makes my build so crazy, so insane, so abnormal, that JaronK, a man who has argued that Polymorph really does give spellcasting and that should totally be taken into account since it is used in most games finds my build so over the top outrageously repulsive that I am decried for it.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Tshern on November 03, 2008, 10:17:00 PM
Now when I seem to be the DM we probably need a new adventure. Unfortunately I have little to no knowledge about read adventures, so if any person not related to this challenge but happens to be reading the thread could point me to one, I'd be happy.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Kaelik on November 03, 2008, 10:23:22 PM
Well I suggest we play one designed for higher level characters since we are apparently optimizing quite a deal.

The one I was going to use was just an altered free one from the WotC website. We could do one for level 6 or 7 from the same place.

If JaronK doesn't have a problem with it, there are lots of non-official WotC modules that you can find just by googling appropriately.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: AfterCrescent on November 03, 2008, 10:33:09 PM
I agree with Kaelik, WotC published adventures should be simple enough.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/oa/20030530b&page=1

Take your pick, Tshern. :D
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Tshern on November 03, 2008, 10:34:50 PM
I'll pick a level 6 or 7 adventure, if everyone agrees with the prospect.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: BowenSilverclaw on November 03, 2008, 10:37:27 PM
Now when I seem to be the DM we probably need a new adventure. Unfortunately I have little to no knowledge about read adventures, so if any person not related to this challenge but happens to be reading the thread could point me to one, I'd be happy.
I've been lurking on this thread since about the beginning...
Seeing as you guys apparantly want to start at around level 5-6, may I suggest The Red Hand of Doom?
It's quite a challenging adventure with different types of enemies and encounters, so it should be able to help you in determing which classes are strong and which are weak and since this is going to be a optimization-savvy party I think a somewhat challenging adventure could be a good thing :)

Back to lurking and seeing how these classes will do in an actual campaign :)


~Bowen
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Tshern on November 03, 2008, 10:39:35 PM
Under consideration, thanks for the tip!
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Kaelik on November 03, 2008, 10:43:51 PM
Well, Red Hand of Doom might be nice, but the problem I see is that the original plan was to play at only a few levels, to increase the likelihood of getting a result soon, rather then playing at level 5 and 6, despite very little change between the too, or 9 and 10, which are much the same.

While the level pattern I had of 5/10/15 might not be the best, it does at least promise little redundancy in testing.

I don't mind doing Red Hand because I'm about 3/4ths treating this as an actual game for fun, and I have heard about Red Hand before and would like to play it, but I also wouldn't say no to skipping several levels.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: JaronK on November 03, 2008, 10:47:26 PM
No, you quite clearly had it at level 3, and in fact, you could not have invested as many skill points as you did if you had taken it at level 6. So either Uber was right in that you had too many skill points invested in your familiar, or you had it at level 3.

You pointed out a while ago that I needed to take EWP first, and I can't take that at level 1 (requires BAB +1).  So I swapped it.  Then I changed the invested points accordingly.  I've been updating.  Uber didn't say anything about levels to take it at... he just didn't know how Item Familiars work.

Quote
Wrong, I quite clearly can carry my armor, my buckler, and my haversack, weighing 6.25, 2.5, and 5 pounds respectively, all at once. It limits the number of flasks I can have actively on my body to 5, but that is why I have my haversack attached to my mount, giving me room for 10 flasks without becoming even lightly encumbered.

Care to try again?

This is going to get hilarious when you can't be on your mount.    Your weight capacity is of course 15 pounds before encumberance, as a Str 6 halfling.  Your armour buckler and haversack put you at 13.75... and you forgot to add clothing to that... the lightest you can do would be the peasant's outfit or monk's outfit at .5 pounds, putting you at 14.25 before you even pull out a weapon.  And of course that's not counting the cloak or any other gear you've got written on your sheet as worn... you're probably already over weight.  Pull out those Thieve's Tools to deal with a lock or trap and you're encumbered.  Same thing happens if you have even a single vial out ready to throw.

Even with the bag on your mount, you can't have many vials ready for combat.  And without your mount, you're screwed.

I think you're the one who needs to try again.  I think you forgot that small creatures have their capacity reduced.

Quote
Please, Please, Someone Please explain to me how what JaronK did was "practical optimization" but what I did was "even more cheese" or "off the deep end."

Please, Was it taking feats that provide nearly no benefit? Was it combining a Halfling with Hurling? Was it Item Familiar? (God knows I can't see how that makes a difference, since JaronK demanded it be allowed.) Was it taking the Halfling Racial sub level with my Halfling?

I'll explain it for you then.  I started with a character concept (independent flexible character who uses stealth, intelligence, and tools he makes to solve his problems).  Then I picked a few good feats that followed that concept.  Maybe you didn't like... well, all of them, but that's what I did.  I didn't go overboard with any of them... you'll notice that the Item Familiar isn't making me higher level than the party, or being used as a crazy custom item.  It's just a magic weapon that gives me extra skill ranks, in the end, and balances out crafting exp (which may not have been necessary anyway).  Then I grabbed a mount that's a domesticated mount already, and the only one I felt could actually go where I wanted my character to be able to go (namely, nearly everywhere).

You, meanwhile, started out with a theoretical build concept (the potion thrower Rogue, which basically no one plays due to the technical difficulties of lugging around all those explosives, which have to be on your body and which you have to buy more of all the time and let's face it, in the end you're just a lame version of a Master Thrower with Weak Spot).  Then you tried to optimize it, but forgot to deal with stuff like weight.  And then you went for a mount type that gets bandied about as the best low level attack critter... but which is NOT a domesticated creature, making the idea of actually having one bizarre.  Now, can this critter do stealth?  No, and since you can't even carry your gear without it, neither can you now.  You've managed to turn a Rogue into a one trick pony that relies on a custom at will casting item (dunno if that's going to be legal), with horrible gear reliance.  

Now, I was willing to drop the Item Familiar, but only if you'd lay off everything else, or if Tshern said I ought to.  But notice what he said about the Item Familiar... that it was okay because I wasn't actually doing anything insane with it.  So what did you do?  Go for a custom at will casting of grease on it.  

Quote
Please, someone tell me what grievous sin I have committed that makes my build so crazy, so insane, so abnormal, that JaronK, a man who has argued that Polymorph really does give spellcasting and that should totally be taken into account since it is used in most games finds my build so over the top outrageously repulsive that I am decried for it.

I said Polymorph's casting thing should be nerfed, but should be counted as a demonstration of the power of a class by RAW because it's at the peak of the graduated power of the class.  That's really different.

Look, fix your build, and try to be less of a hypocrite.  Right now you can't even do stealth at all because you're tied to your dinosaur.  

JaronK
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: AfterCrescent on November 03, 2008, 10:57:25 PM
JaronK, a technical note. The clothing you wear does not count against encumberance, assuming it is one of the basic outfits you get for free. Page 131 of the PHB for reference.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: JaronK on November 03, 2008, 11:00:04 PM
Neat!  Never knew that.  Okay,that's .5 pounds off Kaelik's encumbrance... still a critical issue though if he doesn't want to run around with penalties.

JaronK
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Ubernoob on November 03, 2008, 11:35:47 PM
Now when I seem to be the DM we probably need a new adventure. Unfortunately I have little to no knowledge about read adventures, so if any person not related to this challenge but happens to be reading the thread could point me to one, I'd be happy.
I've been lurking on this thread since about the beginning...
Seeing as you guys apparantly want to start at around level 5-6, may I suggest The Red Hand of Doom?
It's quite a challenging adventure with different types of enemies and encounters, so it should be able to help you in determing which classes are strong and which are weak and since this is going to be a optimization-savvy party I think a somewhat challenging adventure could be a good thing :)

Back to lurking and seeing how these classes will do in an actual campaign :)


~Bowen
I've read RHoD, so we probably shouldn't run RHoD unmodified if I'm running the ardent still.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Tshern on November 04, 2008, 12:34:30 AM
Good to know, I won't have time to modify too much. I'll be optimizing your opponents tough. Probably.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Tshern on November 04, 2008, 01:12:17 AM
Quote from: Kaelik
(The Iajitsu focused Factotum, which basically no one plays due to the  difficulties of finding out about a 3.0 campaign specific skill in a book few people have even heard of outside forums dedicated to min-maxing, and let's face it, in the end you're just a lame version of a Rogue).
Incidentally, a friend of mine has some weird obsession with Oriental Adventures. He has never visited the CO boards and he hyped it even before I went to 339. Just a funny story, I am staying neutral in this argument.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: AfterCrescent on November 04, 2008, 01:41:49 AM
Knock it the fuck off.

You've all been warned. I'm not going to waste more of my time pruning this bullshit. If the pissing contest continues, this thread will be closed.

No one cares how big your e-peen is.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Kaelik on November 04, 2008, 04:56:12 AM
Knock it the fuck off.

You've all been warned. I'm not going to waste more of my time pruning this bullshit. If the pissing contest continues, this thread will be closed.

No one cares how big your e-peen is.

Why do you only "Prune" my statements that are directly equivalent to JaronKs? Why is it okay for him to insult me, but you have to delete my post. Seriously, you demanded that I be objective in everything I say, you could at least have the decency to try it yourself.

Not to mention deleting my entire discussion of weight for no fucking reason.

I think I'll take you up on that offer.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: JaronK on November 04, 2008, 06:16:09 AM
I'm not insulting you.  I'm telling you, the character you're making for this contest is not currently functional, or at least not how you think it is (the weight issue).  Furthermore, it's unclear where your character is getting that +10 to UMD from, among other things.  I stated where all the bonuses for my character come from, and addressed your concerns via the character (including shuffling my feats when you correctly pointed out that I needed EWP to come first)... the least you could do is afford the same courtesy.

I don't know yet whether the grease thing is going to be legal (Tshern's call).  Since he stated Item Familiar was okay with the cavat that he did so because I wasn't being particularly abusive about it (only gaining bonuses to Iajuitsu Focus and a cheaper weapon, really), it's not clear whether he'll be okay with a completely custom thing like that (and obviously, if he is I'd want to go for one that casts Wraithstrike, which matches what you're doing... but I'm not even using an Item Familiar until the character hits level 6).

The fact that I find your tactics in this thread strange is pretty irrelevant, all in all.  The fact that there's some issues with the character, however, is very relevant, and needs to be addressed before we can begin.  So, can you deal with those issues?  Or do you want to start with a character that will indeed be at medium load much of the time, including having serious difficulties when he can't have his mount nearby (something that I see happening a lot in many games)?  I mean, the grease casting thing needs to be addressed no matter what, obviously.

@Tshern: I've found that seems to be very common, actually.  If someone has a few really rare books, OA is usually one of them.  I think it's the general obsession with Japanese fantasy that's so common among gamers.  Heck, UE comes up a good deal too.

I have not read RHoD, by the way.

JaronK
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Kaelik on November 04, 2008, 06:30:17 AM
The fact that there's some issues with the character, however, is very relevant, and needs to be addressed before we can begin.

I did address it. Unfortunately my post was deleted by a moderator.

I promise I will repost it as soon as I have confirmation that I am allowed to tell you that you are wrong without my posts being deleted.

Long story short, my post was deleted for including equivalent statements to your own. Because when you say, it's okay, and when I say it, it's a personal attack.

I personally believe that neither post was a personal attack, but if my deleted post was, then your is as well, since they say nearly the same thing.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Omen of Peace on November 04, 2008, 06:52:09 AM
Deleted posts are moved to the Garbage sub-forum - so no need to retype stuff.
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2512.0
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: JaronK on November 04, 2008, 08:24:57 AM
Hmm, didn't expect that to get deleted.

Okay, well, trying to keep this as civil as possible, the weight problem exists.  I looked at the character, and with your armor, your buckler, and your backpack you're about 1 lb away from encumbrance.  I'm aware of the weight of halfling items, and also aware that a strength 6 halfling can only hold 15 pounds before getting into trouble.  Since you didn't write the weight of your other stuff (the camo cloak for example) I can't be exactly sure of the extent of it, but it none the less is a serious issue.

Look, just raise the strength of the halfling and lower some other stat, and you should mostly be okay... just hope that your mount can always be close, because you're going to have serious troubles if you two are seperated (which I find happens a lot with mounts, especially on stealth oriented characters).

The second issue is that you've got bonuses that are hard to account for, specifically the UMD bonus.  Can you write it out?  I did.

JaronK
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Kaelik on November 04, 2008, 09:18:11 AM
1) Okay, JaronK, when was the last time you looked at my sheet? Because pretty much the day after I posted it while I was still fiddling around with equipment I already did that. I hadn't even finished my equipment list until after I had already changed my Str to 8. I guess that is the source of your comments. Fair enough, but I had already taken that into account as soon as I calculated my weight.

2) Do the ToB items duplicate stances? Would it be possible to for example, give myself Assassin's Stance? Or is it just Maneuvers?

3) Not sure if you saw it in the deleted post, but yeah, not really going to bother with a custom grease item.

4) the UMD is +8 Item familiar, +2 "Masterwork tool" feel free to complain about it, but unless all you masterworks are explicitly listed in books, it seems pretty equivalent. Speaking of which, shouldn't you have something like springs on the release of your quickrazor that give +2 circumstance to IF checks? When I make my IF rogue, I will. I mean, if you are going to go the Masterwork tool route, why not do it for all your skills that matter. Do you want to know all my other bonuses? I'll get to that if you really want to know, but aside from synergy/racial/item familiar/masterwork tools, I don't think I have any others. (I think the other Item Familiars went into MS.)

5) Further weight issues: Clothes don't count for encumbrance, do you seriously want me to make up random weights for items that don't have listed weights anywhere in any book?
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: JaronK on November 04, 2008, 09:26:41 AM
1) Okay, JaronK, when was the last time you looked at my sheet? Because pretty much the day after I posted it while I was still fiddling around with equipment I already did that. I hadn't even finished my equipment list until after I had already changed my Str to 8. I guess that is the source of your comments. Fair enough, but I had already taken that into account as soon as I calculated my weight.

Hmm, I've been checking it over... must have missed that.

Quote
2) Do the ToB items duplicate stances? Would it be possible to for example, give myself Assassin's Stance? Or is it just Maneuvers?

Stances do technically count as manuevers, though you usually need other manuevers as prerequisites.

Quote
3) Not sure if you saw it in the deleted post, but yeah, not really going to bother with a custom grease item.

Good, that makes things a lot more reasonable.

Quote
4) the UMD is +8 Item familiar, +2 "Masterwork tool" feel free to complain about it, but unless all you masterworks are explicitly listed in books, it seems pretty equivalent. Speaking of which, shouldn't you have something like springs on the release of your quickrazor that give +2 circumstance to IF checks? When I make my IF rogue, I will. I mean, if you are going to go the Masterwork tool route, why not do it for all your skills that matter. Do you want to know all my other bonuses? I'll get to that if you really want to know, but aside from synergy/racial/item familiar/masterwork tools, I don't think I have any others. (I think the other Item Familiars went into MS.)

My masterwork items are, in fact, all listed in the books (they're all either Artisan's Tools which boost craft checks, or they're kits that are specifically listed, and if you want I can give explicit sourcing for every one of them).  I was being careful to be as by the books as possible.  That's why I didn't have any kind of masterwork springs for IF or anything... it seemed dodgy, and I was trying for something as reasonable as possible.  I can go back and alter that, including things like masterwork silent shoes to boost Move Silently, and such.  But yeah, since I didn't see any Masterwork UMD tool in the list and I know one doesn't exist normally, I didn't know you were doing that.  I mean, I'm not really sure what a Masterwork UMD tool would be.  But again, I can go back and handle that sort of thing. 

Quote
5) Further weight issues: Clothes don't count for encumbrance, do you seriously want me to make up random weights for items that don't have listed weights anywhere in any book?

Is that Camo cloak actually an item that gives a bonus?  Because Camoflague actually is something you can get.  See, if it's not giving you a bonus, then it doesn't matter as it can be part of your free set, which means the weight doesn't matter.  However, if it's camoflagued clothing (+2 hide checks in appropriate terrain, chosen from a few possibilities) then the weight does count.  That's why I've mentioned it... I assumed your camo cloak was actually a camoflagued item.  If it's not, then the weight does not matter at all, because the first set of free clothes doesn't matter for encumbrance (but everything after that does).

JaronK
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: AfterCrescent on November 04, 2008, 11:36:02 AM
Why do you only "Prune" my statements that are directly equivalent to JaronKs?
I didn't. Both your and JaronK's posts were deleted. If you have a problem with the warnings and actions of a moderator, please bring it to the attention of another moderator.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Kaelik on November 04, 2008, 09:24:39 PM
If you have a problem with the warnings and actions of a moderator, please bring it to the attention of another moderator.

I have already done so.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Kaelik on November 04, 2008, 09:31:52 PM
My masterwork items are, in fact, all listed in the books (they're all either Artisan's Tools which boost craft checks, or they're kits that are specifically listed, and if you want I can give explicit sourcing for every one of them).  I was being careful to be as by the books as possible.  That's why I didn't have any kind of masterwork springs for IF or anything... it seemed dodgy, and I was trying for something as reasonable as possible.  I can go back and alter that, including things like masterwork silent shoes to boost Move Silently, and such.  But yeah, since I didn't see any Masterwork UMD tool in the list and I know one doesn't exist normally, I didn't know you were doing that.  I mean, I'm not really sure what a Masterwork UMD tool would be.  But again, I can go back and handle that sort of thing.

1) I'll take your word on them all being from some book or another. To be honest, just saw a crap ton of masterwork tools I had never heard of and assumed you were using that system so I attempted to match optimization. I'll go through an delete the ones that aren't official. Though IIRC Arms an Equipment has Silk Shoes and tumblers straps. 3.0, but for all I know there is some random web update that changes nothing.

2) Speaking of IF, you said in the other thread that it wasn't clear if it was for the round or just the attack. Did they seriously write that skill with out ever thinking of the quickdraw feat?

Quote
Is that Camo cloak actually an item that gives a bonus?  Because Camoflague actually is something you can get.  See, if it's not giving you a bonus, then it doesn't matter as it can be part of your free set, which means the weight doesn't matter.  However, if it's camoflagued clothing (+2 hide checks in appropriate terrain, chosen from a few possibilities) then the weight does count.  That's why I've mentioned it... I assumed your camo cloak was actually a camoflagued item.  If it's not, then the weight does not matter at all, because the first set of free clothes doesn't matter for encumbrance (but everything after that does).

To be honest, I had no idea that camo cloaks actually exist somewhere in some book.

EDIT: Oh, and since this rogue isn't using IF, and UMD is plenty high, I went ahead and upgraded to 10 Str. -1 to two skill checks doesn't really matter.

EDIT 2: By the way, in your deleted post, you said something about her not being rougelike, I'm sorry, I don't labor under the false impression that Rogues have to be 2e thieves. It may just be my (lack of) age showing, but I consider rogues viable and diverse characters who don't have to sneak around hiding from enemies and performing support functions.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: JaronK on November 05, 2008, 05:45:20 AM
1) I'll take your word on them all being from some book or another. To be honest, just saw a crap ton of masterwork tools I had never heard of and assumed you were using that system so I attempted to match optimization. I'll go through an delete the ones that aren't official. Though IIRC Arms an Equipment has Silk Shoes and tumblers straps. 3.0, but for all I know there is some random web update that changes nothing.

Those were just names of Artisan's Tools, specifying what they gave their bonuses to. 

I was avoiding Arms and Equipment Guide because that book was never actually updated for 3.0 (OA was).  It was Silent Shoes (which only give +1, by the way).  But again, I was avoiding all that.

Quote
2) Speaking of IF, you said in the other thread that it wasn't clear if it was for the round or just the attack. Did they seriously write that skill with out ever thinking of the quickdraw feat?

Of course they expected Quickdraw.  The Iajuitsu Master PrC requires it, in fact.  However, it says "immediately after drawing" so I don't believe that it works for the whole round... hence the use of the Quickrazor, which solves that issue.  And remember, Quickdraw doesn't let you sheath as a free action, so if you want multiple IF strikes, you need to get extra actions, draw weapons and drop them, or use a Quickrazor.

Quote
To be honest, I had no idea that camo cloaks actually exist somewhere in some book.

If nothing else, it could have been intended as a masterwork hide tool. 

Quote
EDIT 2: By the way, in your deleted post, you said something about her not being rougelike, I'm sorry, I don't labor under the false impression that Rogues have to be 2e thieves. It may just be my (lack of) age showing, but I consider rogues viable and diverse characters who don't have to sneak around hiding from enemies and performing support functions.

I was refering to the fact that, as originally created, you weren't functional unless the dinosaur (who has poor stealth skills) was near.  As such, you weren't effective as a stealther... but you were also putting tons of points into stealth, which means the character didn't look like it worked as intended.  I'm fully aware of using Rogues in ways other than stealth.

JaronK
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Kaelik on November 05, 2008, 08:16:13 AM
Of course they expected Quickdraw.  The Iajuitsu Master PrC requires it, in fact.  However, it says "immediately after drawing" so I don't believe that it works for the whole round... hence the use of the Quickrazor, which solves that issue.  And remember, Quickdraw doesn't let you sheath as a free action, so if you want multiple IF strikes, you need to get extra actions, draw weapons and drop them, or use a Quickrazor.

My only point was that you said the wording was ambiguous whether it applied to all attacks in a full attack or just the first. Given what you just quoted, it seems apparent that it should only apply to the first attack (which is what I always assumed it was since I first heard about it) but I can see how someone might decide that it is unclear.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: JaronK on November 05, 2008, 08:58:45 AM
My only point was that you said the wording was ambiguous whether it applied to all attacks in a full attack or just the first. Given what you just quoted, it seems apparent that it should only apply to the first attack (which is what I always assumed it was since I first heard about it) but I can see how someone might decide that it is unclear.

Yeah, well, I've definitely heard people saying that it works for the full round, so I'll say it's unclear because clearly others feel differently.  However, "immediately" to me suggests that it only works right after you draw it, hence my use of the Quickrazor.  But I don't like stating something as a fact unless I'm damn sure.

JaronK
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Ubernoob on November 09, 2008, 12:46:10 AM
Ubernoob: Ardent (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=90532), Pet Rock (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=90750), Mount (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=90736)

Kaelik: Rogue (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=89759), Mount (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=89793)

JaronK: Factotum (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=89732), Mount (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=89745)

TheWordSlinger: Warblade (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=89294)

Still missing the Shugenja
Random Analysis
[spoiler]
Members in order of best offensive action to worst per my estimation: Ardent>Rogue's Pet>Rogue>Warblade>Factotum's Pet>Factotum>Ardent's pet (move this up behind the rogue if you count the poison as a part of the pet rather than the ardent)

Defenses per my estimation: Factotum's Pet>Rogue's Pet>Ardent>Ardent's Pet>Rogue>Warblade>Factotum

Out of Combat per my estimation: Depends on what it is.  Both the rogue and factotum have trapfinding.  The ardent can summon trapmonkies, move doors (time hop), teleport, and create poisons (psionic minor creation).  The factotum can also boost each skill check by 5 1/day, so even if he loses out on individual total, he can win when it matters, so don't take the skill check analysis too heavily if it looks like the factotum is losing.


Who is best at what skills people have invested in (humanoids only):
Rogue: Hide, Move Silently, Spot, Listen, UMD, Balance, Open Lock, Ride, Tumble, 9 total
Ardent: Spot, Listen, Autohypnosis, Craft, Decipher Script(trained only, autowin), Diplomacy, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Heal, Intimidate, Knowledge(psionics), Perform, Sense Motive, Survival, 14 total
Factotum: Slight of Hand, Bluff, Disable Device, Knowledge(anything not local or psionics), Appraise, Climb, Disguise, Escape Artist, Forgery, Search, Spellcraft, Use Rope, Iajitsu Focus, 18 total
Warblade: Knowledge(local), Concentration, Jump, Survival, Swim, 5 total

Seems like the factotum wins out the skills department by sheer number.  He gets 6 powerful skills he is the best at (bluff, disable device, disguise, escape artist, search, Iajitsu focus).  The rogue gets 7 power skills (hide, move silently, spot, listen, UMDm open lock, tumble).  The Ardent gets 8 power skills (spot, listen, autohypnosis, craft:poisonmaking, diplomacy, gather information, intimidate, sense motive).  The warblade alas only gets one power skill (concentration).

So in order of power skills:
Ardent>Rogue>Factotum>Warblade

I'm just looking at who has the highest bonus, not by how much it is.

So far it looks like the ardent and rogue aren't even playing the same game as the factotum and warblade.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Ubernoob on November 09, 2008, 07:29:56 PM
Quote from: FrankTrollman
What the hell is with Jaron's "mount." It's a Warbeast Hunting Bat, which for starters makes as much sense as a War War Horse, because a Desmodu hunting bat is already a warbeast. Secondly, a Hunting Bat is a medium, 4 HD creature. He is seriously getting an "advanced" Hunting Bat even before applying the Warbeast template. Where the fucking hell did he find the cost for that?

Of course, even if we for some reason allowed all that bllshit, JaronK is still purchasing a "mount" that he is personally too large to ride. It's a large flyer with no special carrying capacity powers, so it can't carry a medium character into battle as a mount. And he's a medium character.

But the real kicker I think is the fact that it's an exotic trained fighting beast and he has a Handle Animal mod of +0. He can't take 20 to get it to do anything. What the hell? For all the obvious work into finding all those loopholes, you'd think that he would have kicked off for some kind of loophole that actually fucking worked.

-Frank
Have we addressed this?
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: BowenSilverclaw on November 09, 2008, 07:38:06 PM
[/lurk]
Wait, Large flying mounts can't carry Medium riders?
I never knew flyers had different rules concerning who they can carry in terms of size  ???
[lurk]
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Ubernoob on November 09, 2008, 08:17:07 PM
[/lurk]
Wait, Large flying mounts can't carry Medium riders?
I never knew flyers had different rules concerning who they can carry in terms of size  ???
[lurk]
Anyways, we're still looking for a shugenja player.  Here's a basic layout of spells and shit:
0-All four water, detect magic, ghost sound, mage hand
1-Obscuring Mist, Bless, silent image, shield of faith
2-Lesser restoration, glitterdust

Order-Order of the Spring Zephyr

Buy SF:Knowledge(Religion) via Complete scoundrel, head into divine oracle next level.  Feats are pretty open, so who knows.

That's as much as I've got without actually running it.  Can we PLEASE get a shugenja player?  Your character is half way built already.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: BowenSilverclaw on November 09, 2008, 08:19:58 PM
I'm sorry, Uber, I'm way to busy with uni at the moment.
I'll plug this in both of my PbP's though, least I can do :)

Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: emissary666 on November 09, 2008, 10:10:38 PM
Said i would be the shugenja, but I can't find complete divine! I'm out.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Ubernoob on November 09, 2008, 10:36:03 PM
Said i would be the shugenja, but I can't find complete divine! I'm out.
You do realize that you can download it, right?
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: emissary666 on November 09, 2008, 10:46:12 PM
Where?
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: BowenSilverclaw on November 09, 2008, 10:47:33 PM
Either via torrents or a shareware program.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Ubernoob on November 09, 2008, 10:51:43 PM
Either via torrents or a shareware program.
mIRC is pretty damn quick.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Sunic_Flames on November 09, 2008, 11:49:51 PM
[/lurk]
Wait, Large flying mounts can't carry Medium riders?
I never knew flyers had different rules concerning who they can carry in terms of size  ???
[lurk]

Quote
A creature with a fly speed can move through the air at the indicated speed if carrying no more than a light load. (Note that medium armor does not necessarily constitute a medium load.) All fly speeds include a parenthetical note indicating maneuverability, as follows:

Medium is likely too damn heavy. At least with equipment it is.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Ubernoob on November 09, 2008, 11:52:53 PM
OK, so I just downloaded dungeonscape to check a few things.
1) Factotum casting is even more worthless than I'd originally thought:
A) You have to pay the XP costs and need the components.  This means for instance that major creation for black lotus requires you to actually have black lotus on hand.
B) It's not gish progression (delayed a couple levels).  It's bard progression.  You literally don't get cloudkill until level 13 and get no other level 5 spells if you do that.  The majority of your spells are actually two levels behind sorcerer casting.  That blows chunks.
2) The sneak attack is badly worded.  It implies it only applies to that attack and not the whole round.
3) The healing/turn undead is a fucking joke.
4) Cunning breach doesn't apply to your allies and doesn't last for the whole round, so is a joke.

What we've been overlooking:
1) Cunning Brilliance is fucking amazing, but doesn't come into play until level 19 so really isn't worth discussing.
2) Cunning surge blows without FoI, but is pretty nice with it.  Definitely the cutoff point for the class.  There is no reason to ever go past level 8 in factotum.
3) Brains over Brawn is the best ability in the entire class.  Hands down this ability is amazing.  Why JaronK hasn't been citing it as a central ability just completely awes me.
4) Cunning insight for a competence bonus = int on a save for one IP is fucking hawt.  Second best ability in the entire class.  Why JaronK hasn't been citing this as a central ability in the class just fucking awes me.


So, we have notable class abilities at 3, and if FoI is in play, 1 and 8.


Factotum casting is completely worthless, but brains over brawn, cunning insight, and cunning surge are fucking good.  Not great (aside from brains over brawn), but very good abilities to build around.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Midnight_v on November 10, 2008, 12:35:38 AM
Okay, at bowens plug I'll be a shugenga.

... can someone spare me 8 pages of reading and tell me why I'm building a shugenja?
Or should I start building right now?
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Ubernoob on November 10, 2008, 12:46:36 AM
Okay, at bowens plug I'll be a shugenga.

... can someone spare me 8 pages of reading and tell me why I'm building a shugenja?
Or should I start building right now?
Anyways, we're still looking for a shugenja player.  Here's a basic layout of spells and shit:
0-All four water, detect magic, ghost sound, mage hand
1-Obscuring Mist, Bless, silent image, shield of faith
2-Lesser restoration, glitterdust

Order-Order of the Spring Zephyr

Buy SF:Knowledge(Religion) via Complete scoundrel, head into divine oracle next level.  Feats are pretty open, so who knows.

That's as much as I've got without actually running it.  Can we PLEASE get a shugenja player?  Your character is half way built already.
This is what I've already hardcoded for you so no need to sweat for your spells.  Levl 5 32 PB and you PrC into Divine Oracle and later dip contemplative.  Feats are fairly open and I trust you'll get some good ones for your stats.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Midnight_v on November 10, 2008, 01:58:32 AM
I am not pleased with this class....  :mad


Okay what is my party role supposed to be here? I could go a lot of way with this what with all the Prc dips and the such.
All in all the class leave me feeling uninspired... *sigh*
So yeah...should I be building a "master of the save or die" or a "God-styled controller"?
I was tempted for a second to try to make "Sugenja-zilla" like they do with favored souls.. but seriously what do you guys want as an example to show tier 3.
I mean I could get turning from sacred exorcist and start persisting righteous might soon.
Make something useful is vague. Talk to me.
M_v
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Omen of Peace on November 10, 2008, 02:51:23 AM
- Cunning Breach does last for one round.

- Turning is standard fare. But of course Cha is not a Factotum's priority.

- Cunning Insight wasn't mentioned... because everybody knows it's there, and it's part of the basic Factotum ability, i.e. get Int to whatever ?

- I'm surprised you like BoB so much given that you look down on skills... and it's mostly for physical skills at that. (Don't get me wrong: I love it ! I don't think it's the best ability either - it's tied.)
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Kaelik on November 10, 2008, 04:31:00 AM
Wait a minute? Cunning Breach lasts for one round? The sneak attack one? No wonder people kept trying to tell me the Factotum SA was worth something. Not much, but at least it's not total shit with that.

Oh, and for the Shu:

Save-or-suck die type, with some control thrown in, and the occasional utility. That's why all real Shus are Water, because Fire is balls and Water has all the utility. Domains for extra spells is odd, because they don't necessarily fit in any specific element. So, interesting. But also I guess you could build a zilla maybe?
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: JaronK on November 10, 2008, 05:09:42 AM
Have we addressed this?

Of course.  Frank is wrong. 

First of all, if he'd actually bothered to read this thread instead of rushing to judgement, or had bothered to read the appropriate information he'd notice that I took the Warbeast template specifically because the template gives the costs to purchase the creature (100gp+75gp per HD).  So, that's where the hell I got the price.  Note that I advanced it only enough to make it large, so that I could ride it.

Second of all, Hunting Bats are not war trained already.  War trained creatures are those trained to be ridden into battle... nothing in the Hunting Bat entry even suggests this is.  Thus, they are valid candidates to be war trained.

Third, the weight of the Factotum in question is not too high for the Hunting Bat, which is large, and thus the Factotum can ride it.  I made an entry for the bat already, with links, and you can check that there (remember, a flier can only carry a light load).  The bat can easily carry the rider.  The bat has a light load limit of over 600 pounds (see here:  http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=89745 ).

Fourth, I don't need handle animal ranks, as I purchased the bat pre-trained (I would have trained it myself, but there is no listed price for a Hunting Bat without the Warbeast template, and all Warbeasts are automatically trained in basic combat usage).  You don't need Handle Animal ranks to use a Warhorse either... only to retrain them.  And my Ride skill is easily sufficient for the purpose.  That said, I threw in a rank.

All his points are completely and totally wrong, and he has no idea what he's talking about.  And doesn't Frank always say that debating something somewhere else where the people involved can't respond instead of where the debate is actually occuring is stupid, and that anyone doing it is an idiot?  He should take his own damn advice, and either come here where I can actually answer his concerns directly or stay out.

JaronK
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: JaronK on November 10, 2008, 05:19:33 AM
OK, so I just downloaded dungeonscape to check a few things.
1) Factotum casting is even more worthless than I'd originally thought:
A) You have to pay the XP costs and need the components.  This means for instance that major creation for black lotus requires you to actually have black lotus on hand.

Uber... you still evidently don't know the class.  Factotums can't even cast spells with Xp costs.  Furthermore, EVERY TIME I've mentioned that you need to create a dose of the poison to work off of if using Minor Creation, because yes, you do need material costs.  You do not, however, need a full dose (it says just a little bit of the substance) so one dose should last you a good long time. 

Quote
B) It's not gish progression (delayed a couple levels).  It's bard progression.  You literally don't get cloudkill until level 13 and get no other level 5 spells if you do that.  The majority of your spells are actually two levels behind sorcerer casting.  That blows chunks.

I've never said otherwise.  You mean you've been talking about this the whole time and didn't know how their casting worked?  You've seriously been arguing this whole time without even knowing that?

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2) The sneak attack is badly worded.  It implies it only applies to that attack and not the whole round.

...yes.  Of course.

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3) The healing/turn undead is a fucking joke.

No, it's really not, especially since you can use a Lyre of the Restful Soul and Rod of Defiance.  The healing is useful enough, especially since you can do it without using up actions (due to Cunning Surge).  And of course you can UMD wands of Lesser Vigor better than a Rogue.

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4) Cunning breach doesn't apply to your allies and doesn't last for the whole round, so is a joke.

It works for you, which means a Factotum's Shivering Touch is unstoppable to a dragon. 

Quote
What we've been overlooking:
1) Cunning Brilliance is fucking amazing, but doesn't come into play until level 19 so really isn't worth discussing.

What YOU'VE been overlooking.  I've said it the whole time.

Quote
2) Cunning surge blows without FoI, but is pretty nice with it.  Definitely the cutoff point for the class.  There is no reason to ever go past level 8 in factotum.

It's a clear breakpoint, but there's plenty more useful things to do past that point.

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3) Brains over Brawn is the best ability in the entire class.  Hands down this ability is amazing.  Why JaronK hasn't been citing it as a central ability just completely awes me.

There's a whole thread on the subject that I started.  I've also cited it numerous times as one of the reasons Factotums are such better skillmonkeys.  I thought you'd actually read the class though, so I didn't think I had to mention it that much.

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4) Cunning insight for a competence bonus = int on a save for one IP is fucking hawt.  Second best ability in the entire class.  Why JaronK hasn't been citing this as a central ability in the class just fucking awes me.

Because it's obvious and everyone knows about it?  I was operating under the assumption that you'd read the class and simply hadn't figured out what was strong about it... not that you'd never seen it.  Brains over Brawn is obviously incredible.  Cunning Insight is obvious too.  Citing Cunning Insight for the saves or Brains over Brawn as why Factotums are powerful would be like citing creating undead as a reason Dread Necromancers are powerful... you don't have to because everyone already knows about that.

Uber... you hadn't even read the damn class this whole time?  That's absolutely pathetic.  You've been arguing entirely from ignorance this whole darn time!  No wonder you were so completely off base.

Kaelik:  Cunning breach is the ignore SR/ignore DR ability.  Cunning strike (the sneak attack ability) is for one attack, and thus only comes up for ambushes and situations where you need just a little more damage right now to finish it, or for using sneak attack trigger abilities like the one that raises the DC of poisons.

JaronK
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Kaelik on November 10, 2008, 06:31:50 AM
for using sneak attack trigger abilities like the one that raises the DC of poisons.

Fair enough here, but I don't own DotU so I could not be expected to think of that.

But as for needing a little extra damage, how on earth would you know that before the damage roll? And it would have to be a very little amount (or you would have to be before level 8 I guess).

I mean, mathematically, Cunning Surge destroys Cunning Strike for IP-damage.

3d6 SA averages to 10.5. If your base attack does less then that you are in trouble. Ignoring your build for a moment and assuming we have a Factotum with no IF (since if he has that, he'll always average more then 10.5 a strike, at least when the target is denied Dex AKA when SA is involved) a basic attack with a +1 Longsword two handed and a Str of 14 is 1d8+4 damage, or 8.5, and that's something close to the worst melee combatant ever at level 8+. And even he could spend 4IP and instead of 14 extra damage get 8.5+Int, which at level 8 could easily be +6/+7 damage.

Honestly, I feel like the SA part of the factotum is useless (yes, if you have a not very good feat from a book that came out months later it might be useful sometimes.) And they should have a real class feature at that level instead.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: JaronK on November 10, 2008, 08:06:50 AM
Fair enough here, but I don't own DotU so I could not be expected to think of that.

It's a very good book for poison use, fear, and feinting.  All in all, a very underrated book.  I highly recommend it actually, along with Tome of Magic (but only use the first third!) and Tome of Battle.

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But as for needing a little extra damage, how on earth would you know that before the damage roll? And it would have to be a very little amount (or you would have to be before level 8 I guess).

I mean, mathematically, Cunning Surge destroys Cunning Strike for IP-damage.

Yes, there's a reason I haven't talked much about Cunning Strike... it rarely comes up.  I could see using it to make darn sure a Coup De Gras stuck, but I noticed the same thing you have here... Cunning Surge will usually do the same thing better.  Maybe if you play with Death from Massive Damage it could matter?   Also, if you want to be very aggressive but have only 2 IP left, that might be useful (to finish off the target, as mentioned earlier).

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Honestly, I feel like the SA part of the factotum is useless (yes, if you have a not very good feat from a book that came out months later it might be useful sometimes.) And they should have a real class feature at that level instead.

I don't want to say it's useless, but I agree it's not a very useful ability.  If for some reason you absolutely must make one attack kill the target, it might be good... bypassing DR before level 11, perhaps?  But yeah... it's very situational.  I can think up a few situations where it's good to have it (the afformentioned DotU feat with poison, Coup De Gras, etc) but I don't think it's an ability you'd want to use very often, especially when Cunning Surge seems to be far better.  It does let you qualify for feats and PrCs that require sneak attack though, so that might be handy... Craven, for example. 

JaronK
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Kaelik on November 10, 2008, 08:56:37 AM
I don't want to say it's useless, but I agree it's not a very useful ability.  If for some reason you absolutely must make one attack kill the target, it might be good... bypassing DR before level 11, perhaps?  But yeah... it's very situational.  I can think up a few situations where it's good to have it (the afformentioned DotU feat with poison, Coup De Gras, etc) but I don't think it's an ability you'd want to use very often, especially when Cunning Surge seems to be far better.  It does let you qualify for feats and PrCs that require sneak attack though, so that might be handy... Craven, for example.

I don't know about Craven, but I'm pretty sure that it won't qualify them for 99% of SA related things, since they all specify a specific SA not the ability to do said damage, which is different.
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Kaelik on November 10, 2008, 09:06:50 AM
Cross posted from the Den:
Quote from: ubernoob
Quote from: JaronK
Uber... you still evidently don't know the class.  Factotums can't even cast spells with Xp costs.  Furthermore, EVERY TIME I've mentioned that you need to create a dose of the poison to work off of if using Minor Creation, because yes, you do need material costs.  You do not, however, need a full dose (it says just a little bit of the substance) so one dose should last you a good long time.
This means your DM has to actually let you buy that shit.  That's incredibly limiting in play due to WBL and actually fucking finding the stuff.
Quote from: JaronK
I've never said otherwise.  You mean you've been talking about this the whole time and didn't know how their casting worked?  You've seriously been arguing this whole time without even knowing that?
My brother had a hardcopy, so I had access to the book up until school started.  I read the class, made my analysis, and put it away.  As it turns out, my memory was bad in favor of the factotum casting actually being MORE powerful.  If I had thought it was more powerful than it is and still discounted it as worthless then how useful is it now?
Quote from: JaronK
It works for you, which means a Factotum's Shivering Touch is unstoppable to a dragon. 
Scintillating scales.  Nobody fucking cares about SR.  They care about real defenses that aren't negated by a fourth level spell.
Quote from: JaronK
What YOU'VE been overlooking.  I've said it the whole time.
I agree with you for once and this is how you react?
Quote from: JaronK
It's a clear breakpoint, but there's plenty more useful things to do past that point.
Not until level 19.
Quote from: JaronK
There's a whole thread on the subject that I started.  I've also cited it numerous times as one of the reasons Factotums are such better skillmonkeys.  I thought you'd actually read the class though, so I didn't think I had to mention it that much.
You still don't get it, do you?  Adding a second stat to str and dex checks (not skill checks, because those don't matter) is fucking amazing.  Factotums make incredibly good tripmonkies, grapplers, bullrushers, tripsages, and a variety of other all the time abilities.  The fact that you can't see how incredibly useful this is fucking astounds me with all your fapping for the class.
Quote from: JaronK
Because it's obvious and everyone knows about it?  I was operating under the assumption that you'd read the class and simply hadn't figured out what was strong about it... not that you'd never seen it.  Brains over Brawn is obviously incredible.  Cunning Insight is obvious too.  Citing Cunning Insight for the saves or Brains over Brawn as why Factotums are powerful would be like citing creating undead as a reason Dread Necromancers are powerful... you don't have to because everyone already knows about that.

Uber... you hadn't even read the damn class this whole time?  That's absolutely pathetic.  You've been arguing entirely from ignorance this whole darn time!  No wonder you were so completely off base.
No.  I've been arguing with the faulty memory that factotum casting was actually better than it is and the assumption that you'd eventually figure out how kick ass Brains over Brawn is and raise the point so I could actually respect your analysis.

Stop jumping to conclusions and start analyzing like I did months ago when I wasn't even making Tiers.


It's mostly standard Uber stuff, but a) he's right, you have not even once addressed the trip aspect of Factotums in anything other then a single offhand mention of a Tripsage you were making. b) As the previous victim of your annoying superiority complex, I'm going to have to side with Uber that you should stop with your, "You were wrong about something? All your opinions no longer matter!" crap.

Sorry, not everyone has a huge hard-on for Factotums. I'm sure if we discussed Wizard spells for hours you eventually prove supremely ignorant of something I thought everyone knew. But I'm not going to talk shit about it.

Some people spend all their free time making Factotums and Shadowcraft Mages, other people make crazy prepared Wizards with Incantatrix levels or 12 PrCs (when Incant is banned for being the shit.)
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: JaronK on November 10, 2008, 09:22:16 AM
I don't know about Craven, but I'm pretty sure that it won't qualify them for 99% of SA related things, since they all specify a specific SA not the ability to do said damage, which is different.

Yeah, well, it says you have to have sneak attack as a class ability... which you do.  You just don't have a class ability called "sneak attack" but rather a class ability that lets you sneak attack... the wording is tricky.  That said, I agree overall that Cunning Strike is rather weak.

And of course, Uber is being silly again.  Yes, I assume the DM lets you purchase the supplies to create your own poison... it's mundane gear and doesn't even cost all that much, plus you can easily make any knowledge check or gather information check to know where to find it (and if you find it where Black Lotuses actually grow, it's only 450gp). 

Likewise, we've got these wonderful assumptions that every dragon always has Scintillating Scales up, even when he's surprised (since Factotums are GREAT at sneaking up on them), and even though most dragons have VERY limited casting.  Heck, a Red Dragon can't even cast Scinilating Scales until he's a Mature Adult (CR 18).  Why are we assuming no dragons are fought before that point?  The Factotum has been able to cast Shivering Touch and Spectral Hand in the same round since level 8... meanwhile, an adult red dragon has an SR of 24, which at the level Factotums start being able to use Spectral Hand is VERY significant.  The fact that they hit 11 and can suddenly bypass that SR 24 is important indeed, yet Uber decides that doesn't matter because "Nobody fucking cares about SR."  Why?  The Mature Adult (the first one that can even cast Scintillating Scales) has a SR of 26, and Uber is likes to say that the only real challenges are CRs at least 4 higher than the party, so he's assuming level 14s fighting the CR 18 Mature Adult.  Do you really think an SR of 26 is something no level 14 cares about?  That's going to kill off half his spells!

And he's assuming I didn't know Factotums could be good trippers and all that... I thought that was a given.  And you know darn well I specifically mentioned how Swordsage was a great dip because you could use the trip manuevers (which can be dex based) along with Brains over Brawn to get Dex+Int to trip.  Do you really want me to go find the quote of me doing that a while back, or do you remember it?

The fact is, Uber is ranting about all the really basic stuff that I thought was already painfully clear to everyone.  I thought he didn't get what was strong about the class because he didn't know the advanced stuff, so that's what I focused on.  Yes, getting Int to saves whenever you need it is awesome.  Yes, Int to all strength checks means you can trip shockingly well (and you can cast Enlarge Person).  Yes, the ability to gain virtually any Ex ability from any base class is incredible and yes, it's only incredible if you actually play that high level.  If he presents himself as knowing about the class, I think it was reasonable of me to assume he knew such stuff already and was just missing some of the finer points.

Look, obviously I've got a short fuse with the guy.  He picked a fight with me, is an intentional and proud asshole and troll (his words!), and likes to go off about how smart he is while making tons of newbie mistakes.  So yeah, when he screws up, I point out why, and not as nicely as I would with someone who was acting like a decent person.  I know I should be nicer or something about it but I've been pushed far enough.

JaronK
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: Kaelik on November 10, 2008, 10:05:46 AM
Yeah, well, it says you have to have sneak attack as a class ability... which you do.  You just don't have a class ability called "sneak attack" but rather a class ability that lets you sneak attack... the wording is tricky.  That said, I agree overall that Cunning Strike is rather weak.

No. If you don't have the ability "Sneak Attack" you don't have it. Factotum's can't take Craven, and neither can Ninjas or anyone else but Rogues and Spellthieves.

Heck, a Red Dragon can't even cast Scinilating Scales until he's a Mature Adult (CR 18).  Why are we assuming no dragons are fought before that point?  The Factotum has been able to cast Shivering Touch and Spectral Hand in the same round since level 8... meanwhile, an adult red dragon has an SR of 24, which at the level Factotums start being able to use Spectral Hand is VERY significant.  The fact that they hit 11 and can suddenly bypass that SR 24 is important indeed, yet Uber decides that doesn't matter because "Nobody fucking cares about SR."  Why?  The Mature Adult (the first one that can even cast Scintillating Scales) has a SR of 26, and Uber is likes to say that the only real challenges are CRs at least 4 higher than the party, so he's assuming level 14s fighting the CR 18 Mature Adult.  Do you really think an SR of 26 is something no level 14 cares about?  That's going to kill off half his spells!

Typical, JaronK style. You pick the worst casting progression Dragon as your only example to prove your point, ignoring all the ones that can cast Scintillating Scales, like the Adult Black CR 11. Not to mention typical JaronK assuming that every DM is just going to say, sure bring in a fucking Shivering touch. No problem. Not like that renders all Dragons except White obsolete at level 5. Let me guess? Factotums are allowed to cast every broken spell in existence but as soon as anyone even says the word Wizard suddenly Tier 1! Not comparable!

Just accept that not everyone gets to cast Shivering Touch, and that if you do, a Black Dragon casting Scintillating Scales is right around the corner, along with a White Dragon using a Hat of disguise.

And finally: SR 26 negating half a level 14 character's spells? Really? That's a joke right? See what I said about astounding ignorance. And no, this isn't just the evil Tier 1 Wizards, it's also the Sorcerers/Beguilers/Dread Necros/Wu-Jens/Clerics/Druids/ect.

And you know darn well I specifically mentioned how Swordsage was a great dip because you could use the trip manuevers (which can be dex based) along with Brains over Brawn to get Dex+Int to trip.  Do you really want me to go find the quote of me doing that a while back, or do you remember it?

It's almost like that is exactly what I was referring to in my post or something. The fact is you didn't mention it in this thread, in the WotC thread, or in the original 18 page train wreck here on BG.

Look, obviously I've got a short fuse with the guy.  He picked a fight with me, is an intentional and proud asshole and troll (his words!), and likes to go off about how smart he is while making tons of newbie mistakes.  So yeah, when he screws up, I point out why, and not as nicely as I would with someone who was acting like a decent person.  I know I should be nicer or something about it but I've been pushed far enough.

I'm sorry, who is all this preaching aimed at? Do you see anyone insisting that you should be nicer to Uber?
Title: Re: Factotum Challenge.
Post by: AfterCrescent on November 10, 2008, 11:22:36 AM
If you want to try this challenge, go for it.

Open a new thread, keep the bullshit out of it, recruit 4 players and playtest. Haven fun doing it, too.

But this trash ends here.