Brilliant Gameologists Forum
Play Like You Have To! => GM Gameology => : DrHorrible October 05, 2011, 09:43:34 PM
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I am running a 13 ECL evil campaign and I'm having a couple of problems handling the Warlock (13 levels of Warlock).
Everytime he gets grappled he escapes with dimensional door, he sees invisible enemies and has no problem seeing in the darkess.
They recently fought a Wizard that tried Solid Fog + Cloudkill and that couldn't hold him more than the starting round, then I used Manyjaws but with dimensional door he escaped and, has he always does, he teleports on the enemy caster (in the space above him), falling on top of him and trying to grapple him or at least make him fall.
I don't want to kill him, but I'd like to challenge him a bit more.
I won't use the polymorph, alter self etc, etc because to me, they're broken.
What is your advice?
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Re-read the Concentration rules as well as the rules on grappling (hint: warlock invocations have somatic components). Also, try to expand the options you're using. It's level 13, invisible enemies and dark fighting conditions are not the trickiest things the PCs should ever be facing, nor should all your tough encounters hinge on them. Grow up a little.
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I am running a 13 ECL evil campaign and I'm having a couple of problems handling the Warlock (13 levels of Warlock).
Everytime he gets grappled he escapes with dimensional door, he sees invisible enemies and has no problem seeing in the darkess.
They recently fought a Wizard that tried Solid Fog + Cloudkill and that couldn't hold him more than the starting round, then I used Manyjaws but with dimensional door he escaped and, has he always does, he teleports on the enemy caster (in the space above him), falling on top of him and trying to grapple him or at least make him fall.
I don't want to kill him, but I'd like to challenge him a bit more.
I won't use the polymorph, alter self etc, etc because to me, they're broken.
What is your advice?
Use a Freeze Ray.
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Re-read the Concentration rules as well as the rules on grappling (hint: warlock invocations have somatic components). Also, try to expand the options you're using. It's level 13, invisible enemies and dark fighting conditions are not the trickiest things the PCs should ever be facing, nor should all your tough encounters hinge on them. Grow up a little.
I read them but maybe I'm still missing something, so I apologize in advance.
In the Complete Arcane says that Warlock Invocations are spell-like-abilities and spell-like-abilities:
A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus or have an XP cost. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability’s use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component.
I couldn't find where in the Complete Arcane that is stated differently.
EDIT: Found it. I'm an idiot. Also, he always used the normal Dimensional Door where the Warlock has a shortened version.
Also, on concentration the DC when you're pinned is 20, pretty easy for a 13th level Warlock.
What tactics would you use against a 13 ECL party?
I am running a 13 ECL evil campaign and I'm having a couple of problems handling the Warlock (13 levels of Warlock).
Everytime he gets grappled he escapes with dimensional door, he sees invisible enemies and has no problem seeing in the darkess.
They recently fought a Wizard that tried Solid Fog + Cloudkill and that couldn't hold him more than the starting round, then I used Manyjaws but with dimensional door he escaped and, has he always does, he teleports on the enemy caster (in the space above him), falling on top of him and trying to grapple him or at least make him fall.
I don't want to kill him, but I'd like to challenge him a bit more.
I won't use the polymorph, alter self etc, etc because to me, they're broken.
What is your advice?
Use a Freeze Ray.
Where do I find the Freeze Ray spell?
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Ray of Stunning, SpC?
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Those Concentration DCs aren't flat, they're those figures plus the level of the spell (or in this case the spell level equivalent) you're trying to cast. Might want to re-read the details on the warlock's invocations.
Regarding different kinds of challenges from what you're using...
There's an (allegedly) encounter level 15 one I rather like. Get 4 harpy archers working together. All stay airborne and no more than 2 are singing at any given time (no use getting the party immune to all the harpies' songs right away). Depending on who latches onto which harpy and who manages to ignore the songs, they maneuver themselves to pull the party apart and minimize cooperation possibilities, while all harpies focus longbow fire on the most dangerous-seeming uncaptivated character until it's taken out of the fight. You can adjust the CR up or down easily enough by using different numbers of class levels, and presumably optimize it at the same CR by using different feats and/or different class levels entirely.
If you want to play the hidden menace game, and darkness and invisibility aren't doing it for you anymore, try 2 dread wraiths and an illusionist 11 (not necessarily an illusionist, just anyone who can cast them effectively). Encounter level is 14. The undead spring attack out of and back into a wall, the ground, or both. The spellcaster throws debuffs at the party and control the wraiths can ignore (wall of ice for example). After stirring up some lingering chaos he starts coming at the party with decoy illusory dread wraiths to waste their readied actions and create a good healthy sense of paranoia. If you're worried that the party might smear the illusionist quickly, taking out the wraiths' support, hide him, and I mean actually hide. Seeing through invisibility won't break a genuine Hide skill check, and if you start with a Small race, give it the Darkstalker feat, and make it something like a rogue 1/illusionist 5/unseen seer 5, it can be surprisingly difficult to figure out where the illusions are coming from.
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Those Concentration DCs aren't flat, they're those figures plus the level of the spell (or in this case the spell level equivalent) you're trying to cast. Might want to re-read the details on the warlock's invocations.
Regarding different kinds of challenges from what you're using...
There's an (allegedly) encounter level 15 one I rather like. Get 4 harpy archers working together. All stay airborne and no more than 2 are singing at any given time (no use getting the party immune to all the harpies' songs right away). Depending on who latches onto which harpy and who manages to ignore the songs, they maneuver themselves to pull the party apart and minimize cooperation possibilities, while all harpies focus longbow fire on the most dangerous-seeming uncaptivated character until it's taken out of the fight. You can adjust the CR up or down easily enough by using different numbers of class levels, and presumably optimize it at the same CR by using different feats and/or different class levels entirely.
If you want to play the hidden menace game, and darkness and invisibility aren't doing it for you anymore, try 2 dread wraiths and an illusionist 11 (not necessarily an illusionist, just anyone who can cast them effectively). Encounter level is 14. The undead spring attack out of and back into a wall, the ground, or both. The spellcaster throws debuffs at the party and control the wraiths can ignore (wall of ice for example). After stirring up some lingering chaos he starts coming at the party with decoy illusory dread wraiths to waste their readied actions and create a good healthy sense of paranoia. If you're worried that the party might smear the illusionist quickly, taking out the wraiths' support, hide him, and I mean actually hide. Seeing through invisibility won't break a genuine Hide skill check, and if you start with a Small race, give it the Darkstalker feat, and make it something like a rogue 1/illusionist 5/unseen seer 5, it can be surprisingly difficult to figure out where the illusions are coming from.
Thanks, I'll put to use a couple of your pointers. Now they have to fight an Omnielemental, after that maybe I'll throw the Harpies their way.
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You don't have to copy 'em completely. The harpies in particular are best used against a party with poor Will saves, mainly warrior and skill types. I just put those forward as a couple of examples of encounters that are still combat encounters, but aren't straightforward damage trading combat, and are tricky without relying on invisibility and darkness which your party seems to have outgrown. Just to get you thinking, you know. Though the harpies encounter might make your players cry if instead of fighters, they were bard/sirens (siren is in Savage Species) with different flavors of dragonfire inspiration, or perhaps two bard/sirens and two Swift Hunter ranger/scouts.
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You don't have to copy 'em completely. The harpies in particular are best used against a party with poor Will saves, mainly warrior and skill types. I just put those forward as a couple of examples of encounters that are still combat encounters, but aren't straightforward damage trading combat, and are tricky without relying on invisibility and darkness which your party seems to have outgrown. Just to get you thinking, you know. Though the harpies encounter might make your players cry if instead of fighters, they were bard/sirens (siren is in Savage Species) with different flavors of dragonfire inspiration, or perhaps two bard/sirens and two Swift Hunter ranger/scouts.
Yeah, I didn't mean to copy 'em that much, I'll just try using that kind of tactic mixing it up with other monsters with class levels and stuff like that.
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I forgot: is the Dimension Door a move action or standard action?
If it's standard, he's basically chewing up his whole round escaping. If so, include a fight with multiple lower level monsters, so even if he escapes from one, there are still several others out there he has to watch out for. They should either have good mobility or ranged attacks, so if he tries to run, they can still engage him. It doesn't have to be a slaughter-fest, but it throw a wrench in his usual plan.
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I forgot: is the Dimension Door a move action or standard action?
If it's standard, he's basically chewing up his whole round escaping. If so, include a fight with multiple lower level monsters, so even if he escapes from one, there are still several others out there he has to watch out for. They should either have good mobility or ranged attacks, so if he tries to run, they can still engage him. It doesn't have to be a slaughter-fest, but it throw a wrench in his usual plan.
Well, the problem he gave me with Dimensional Door was due to the fact that he was using the regular Dimensional Door from PHB, where the Warlock uses one that only grants him 25ft + 5ft level/2 of movement.
Using the other version at will he could cover the whole battlefield in one turn and land on the caster every time he tried to back out.
More on that: how would this tactic work?
If put up against a caster he used to use dimensional door to appear over him, trying to damage/trip him with the fall.
Every time he did this, I made both fall prone, taking 1d6 nonlethal damage, but I'm sure rules would dictate a different result.
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How far was he falling from? They'd both take 1d6 damage per 10 feet for normal falling damage.
Still, as you noted, the range is only close, so he can only go 55 feet. You'll have to apply the Pythagorean Theorem to figure out just how far he can go. For instance, if he wants to appear 20 feet in the air, he can only travel 50 feet horizontally.
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Anticipate Teleport will stop this. It delays him 1 round every time he tries to DD within a certain radius of the caster. If you really want to be nasty Use divert teleport (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/divertTeleport.htm) to send his ass elsewhere. I personally like verticle so they take falling damage, at this level enough to make him stop but not enough to likely kill him.
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Anticipate Teleport will stop this. It delays him 1 round every time he tries to DD within a certain radius of the caster. If you really want to be nasty Use divert teleport (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/divertTeleport.htm) to send his ass elsewhere. I personally like verticle so they take falling damage, at this level enough to make him stop but not enough to likely kill him.
One of my all-time favourite spells. I just forgot to have the BBEG cast it. Yeah, I'm an idiot.
:lmao
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If put up against a caster he used to use dimensional door to appear over him, trying to damage/trip him with the fall.
Have your caster wear a world war 1 German helmet - you know, the one with the spike on top :lmao
Hide it under a wizard's pointy hat, and the warlock will never see it coming :)
Seriously though, doesn't this put the warlock right there with the caster where all of the caster's melee minions can whomp on the warlock?
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If put up against a caster he used to use dimensional door to appear over him, trying to damage/trip him with the fall.
Have your caster wear a world war 1 German helmet - you know, the one with the spike on top :lmao
Hide it under a wizard's pointy hat, and the warlock will never see it coming :)
Seriously though, doesn't this put the warlock right there with the caster where all of the caster's melee minions can whomp on the warlock?
The Caster had only one minion: a Feral Elasmosaurus of the Legend (CR 12). That's when I screwed up big time. I didn't realize that a full attack from this thing could tear apart any one of 'em ( Bite + 2 Claws, 4d6+21 and 4d6+15 respectively ) so I made him do only his bite attack, didn't use his Cleric spells and made the Wiz wait around.
From here on, things got worse.
The Dinosaur didn't last very long with the Rogue dishing out 130 damage on his first turn and the others chipping in for the remaining of his HP, so he went down before he got the chance do act his third turn.
Yeah, I know, I screwed up big time and it doesn't end here.
The Wizard was in his Ice Tower(a modified Ice Castle spell) protected by his Mage Private Sanctum on top of it, and Forbiddance. When they killed the minion I used a magical wind to throw them back and repeated this action a number of times, to make 'em understand that they couldn't handle the situation as it was at that moment but they kept going against him so I reduced the hp of the tower from 200 to 80 so that the Druid with two Crumble could take it down and I had them fight the Wizard on land, without his previous protections.
So it's mainly my fault in the end, I highly underestimated the Dinosaur and the advantage the Wizard would have had if he had stayed on top of his tower casting BC spells and buffing his minion.
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Dimensional anchor his ass. Spell resistance is something I know one of my player's didnt consider when he played a warlock :devil Throw random antimagic fields, enemies who ready actions to shoot when he prepares to teleport, dragons :rollseyes. Throw a warlock against him who uses the same tactics, illusions etc. Every strategy a PC wants to use has a counter, as long as your willing to use it (and while TPK is always an option, usually don't choose it :P)
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At your level, full casters can and should be throwing 7th, even 8th level spells around. A mere Warlock shouldn't really be an issue, since so many powerful, long-lasting self buffs for casters are available: Anticipate Teleportation has been mentioned. How about Heart of Water for instant Freedom of Movement, Overland Flight for not standing on the frickin' ground like an idiot, Antimagic Field with extraordinary spell aim for general immunity to fuck-you-over, True Seeing of course, Mind Blank naturally, Statue for DR 8/-, and a bunch of Contingencie'd escape spells? Think: if you were to play a 13th level Wizard, would you be leaving home without those?
Not to speak of the otherworldly nasties a high-level caster will normally have bound/allied with, if there was any downtime available at all...
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Personally I prefer Elemental Body (SC) for not standing on the ground. Or Phantom Steed if your party isn't smart enough to shoot the steed...
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I'm just happy to see a warlock being effective (if a re-read of the concentration rules will make him less so). Usually its the mages who make all the headaches.
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I know you said you don't want to kill anyone, but why not? At level 13 they aught to be able to scrape together the 5k for a resurrection, and getting full-attacked by an Elasmosaurus should teach him not to TP behind enemy lines with a Warlock.
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I know you said you don't want to kill anyone, but why not? At level 13 they aught to be able to scrape together the 5k for a resurrection, and getting full-attacked by an Elasmosaurus should teach him not to TP behind enemy lines with a Warlock.
It might be that he wants to teach the lesson with a less harsh penalty than making the warlock's player sit out of the session until he rolls up a new guy or gets resurrected.
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Slight nitpick: Doesn't fighting in Forbiddance prevent the DimDoor tactic from working altogether?
And if they put themselves into danger, you are allowed to kill them. As mentioned, resurrections are cheap.
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WTF... so really the problem is that you overnerfed your encounter to allow your gimpy party to survive, because otherwise you would have easily TPKd them.
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WTF... so really the problem is that you overnerfed your encounter to allow your gimpy party to survive, because otherwise you would have easily TPKd them.
Well, yeah... But it must be said that even if that dinosaur was a CR12, offensively was a beast. That said now I understand I should have played it at his fullest, killing a PC and seriously wounding a couple others. In the end a resurrection at their level is pretty easy.
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WTF... so really the problem is that you overnerfed your encounter to allow your gimpy party to survive, because otherwise you would have easily TPKd them.
Solution for this kind of crap: Never ever ever pull any punches, and then don't get all bitchy when your players start looking at options and characters that are far more powerful and flexible than you're used to. Selection pressure will tend to encourage non-gimpy characters, for the convenience of not having to make a new one every single session if naught else, but only if the DM clearly knows that it's okay for the PCs not to suck.
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I would amend the above to say: Know your party. You are there to provide entertainment to them and yourself. Some parties box above their weight, some below. If you devise a scenario that takes out the warlock, can the rest of them manage the encounter? Is it just that the warlock is the only power gamer, and the rest of them are still kinda clueless?
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Well yeah, I'm mainly thinking in terms of what I, and (most) of the people I play with find enjoyable. As players, we don't like DM pity handouts, we want to earn what we get (or fail) through our own abilities. To encourage that, you need a DM who is willing to let characters die if they get into situations that will kill them, but also, a DM who is willing to accept new characters that have a good chance of not dying in situations like those that eliminated the previous characters. One without the other, either you're a killer DM or a pushover, and either way you probably shouldn't be DMing.
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+1 to Phaedrus and Weeong, also to any crowd control, possibly with Fort or Ref saves...
but most of all, I will give you the advice I'm convinced it's the basis of DM'ing: "Know your party and troll 'em hard."
He uses Dimension Door?
Have a mage somewhere with Anticipate Teleportation: it's a 24h buff that delays teleports by one turn, so the lock will:
1. lose one turn every time he teleports
2. EVERYONE will know when and where he'll appear and can ready action and traps for him.
He can see invisible creatures? Use burrowing ones, just as invisible with no fear of see invisibility. Or boost hide and add the dark template to some of your monsters (bonuses to hide AND Hide in plain sight), so he can't see them anyway, even if they're right in front of him.
He's flying?
Dispell him and enjoy falling damage.
Basically just turn his strengths against him and SMILE. (don't do it too often tho, players NEED to feel strong and special and all, just keep them grounded)
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This is DnD. Intelligent enemies should expect teleportation.
That said, you're compounding your mistakes hilariously. 1. You made an encounter too hard for the party. 2. You overnerfed it. 3. You decided that because you overnerfed the encounter, the warlock is OP and you can't make an encounter to challenge him (without killing him/the party).
Here's an idea. On a bluff overlooking the fight, the hobgoblin sorcerer is shooting spells at people from inside his Globe of Invulnerability. Two hobgoblin Guarda are standing in front of him with prepared actions to use Tower Shields to block LoS. Behind the Sorcerer, troop of Hobgoblin infantry are underneath camo cloaks (+10 hide) with 1/10 of their bodies showing from a pre-constructed blind (+10 hide). If anyone gets on top of the ridge and starts attacking the sorcerer, they use a barrage of nets, tanglefoot bombs, and hobgoblin linebackers with touch attacks to either grapple or bullrush, depending if the foe is flying or not.
Have the sorcerer have a contingent Draconic Polymorph (War Troll) + Tenser's Transformation + Flame Blade + False Life spell-chain readied.
Have the sorcerer be a disguised Wight with pimped out grapple (check out frank's Grapple Wizard for how) who starts grappling the warlock to death if the warlock gets close. Keep in mind the warlock can't DDoor out of a grapple.
But yeah, the warlock really isn't the problem. You need to hit the right encounter level. Currently you're aiming way too low.