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The Thinktank => Talespinning => : bihlbo September 17, 2011, 01:17:35 AM

: Need help collapsing a D&D empire
: bihlbo September 17, 2011, 01:17:35 AM
My gaming group is going to be playing a game using Pathfinder, but my intent is to use the setting to illustrate how PF's crunchy bits, when taken to an extreme, can cause an empire to fall apart.

In the setting, long ago casters were a very rare breed and magic was more limited. The mundanes of the world were the only ones who mattered, and your clerics and wizards didn't survive without patronage by people with political and military might. One of your little city-states had good luck with their cloistered mages giving them battlefield advantages, so they got more folk trained to do the same. They start taking over everything and building up more magical might. All these efforts eventually lead to the magic of the world being used exactly as you see it used in Pathfinder (no longer limited, rare, and weak).

A century or two later the Empire has conquered or absorbed all neighbors and spread out over a huge area. Virtually no one has to worry anymore about crazy dangers like rampaging manticores, orcs, dragons, unhinged necromancers, or plagues. Lots of problems are solved by magic, and the empire is full of plenty of high-level spellcasters to get things done.

The question and thing with which I need help is this:
In what way is the magic system in Pathfinder the sole cause of the Empire's collapse?


Only read the following if you're especially curious.
Not that it affects the question, but my intent is to play a few game sessions in this setting to illustrate the decay of the Empire. They players will realize or later discover through investigation that if the classes, spells, and system in Pathfinder had not been used, the Empire certainly would not have fallen the way it did. Then, we're going to fast-forward a very long time and use a different system (one with different strengths and weaknesses) in the same setting. References to things like summoned iron walls and planar binding will pop up from time to time as elements of a past civilization whose learning and advances were lost to the sands of time. Sort of like the idea that the Atlanteans had gravity-control technology that we can't reproduce today. Think of it like playing a few game sessions using Exalted, then zooming forward in time and using Vampire, claiming that it's the same setting.
: Re: Need help collapsing a D&D empire
: bihlbo September 17, 2011, 01:33:13 AM
Ideas that don't work, and why

Invading Monsters - This has no tie to D&D magic. Call the monsters dragons, ghouls, fey, or Mongols and the story plays out the same way.

Casters Just Leave - While it doesn't make sense that your level 14 wizard or druid would stick around the prime material plane when there's a non-finite array of planes that are more exciting and easier to control, this concept relies on the cosmology of D&D more than the system of classes and magic it uses. If the conclusion is "If only they had closed off access to the planes this never would have happened" then it doesn't accomplish the goal.

Casters just like, totally fight a lot - This is a very likely scenario, but only because we attribute human characteristics to humanoid characters in our RPGs. Yeah, they're totally going to fight, because we expect people with even a little bit of power to be total jerks most of the time. But, this scenario attributes the collapse of the Empire to the personalities and moral failings of the casters of the Empire, not on the system the casters use.

Metagame Reasons - While the DMG lays out a scenario in which it can take a crap-covered farmer a whole summer to become a level 20 druid, that's only because of the way XP and game session/encounter pacing works. The people of the world aren't cognizant of "experience points", but they totally know that last month some wizards learned they could gain access to unlimited, free wishes and "holy crap, that tower made of human flesh that appeared last night sure is disturbing." Also, "Someone should do something about it... too bad I'm a monk and completely irrelevant in this crazy new world."
: Re: Need help collapsing a D&D empire
: Solo September 17, 2011, 03:15:28 AM
In what way is the magic system in Pathfinder the sole cause of the Empire's collapse?
Save or die spells?
: Re: Need help collapsing a D&D empire
: bihlbo September 17, 2011, 03:51:15 AM
In what way is the magic system in Pathfinder the sole cause of the Empire's collapse?
Save or die spells?
Haha. You're just trolling, right?  :clap
: Re: Need help collapsing a D&D empire
: veekie September 17, 2011, 06:25:19 PM
I can't actually think of any way a PF magic system would break an empire any more than regular 3.5 magic system. Its all down the people in the end.

However, you can work with the crafting system. Crafters can make a lot of items with hidden defects for lack of skill, and the cursed aspect isn't obvious. Crafting also no longer takes XP, so you can have a right full industry.
: Re: Need help collapsing a D&D empire
: oslecamo September 17, 2011, 10:39:25 PM
I can't actually think of any way a PF magic system would break an empire any more than regular 3.5 magic system. Its all down the people in the end.

However, you can work with the crafting system. Crafters can make a lot of items with hidden defects for lack of skill, and the cursed aspect isn't obvious. Crafting also no longer takes XP, so you can have a right full industry.

Screw industry, you can have a right full cyborg revolution with PFs rules for easily making animated objects with brains. Get them building others of their kind whitout rest and you have empires colapasing under mecha armies!
: Re: Need help collapsing a D&D empire
: bihlbo September 19, 2011, 11:56:51 PM
I can't actually think of any way a PF magic system would break an empire any more than regular 3.5 magic system.
This is true enough that I haven't been quibbling between the two when researching stuff. When enough good stuff sticks to the wall I can go back and make sure PF didn't change the fulcrums.

One of the ways things might fall apart is because of the 15-minute work day. The power imbalance is going to result in a lot of tension, tension which could be released through blood. Spellcasters are to an extent unkillable by a mundane, but only if they are prepared. As soon as they lose that preparation or have to prepare for something other than defeating an assassin, they are pretty much just low-level commoners with too many trinkets. Magic items can be used extensively to shore up this weakness, but how far does that get you?

In the end, spellcasters may become all potential, no execution - all because of the constant threat of death. All that pressure building up... when the top blows and the ones with magic finally put an end to things, they either have to win completely or they lose everything. Because even if the monk is a terrible class, it is still tremendously powerful against a sorcerer who's out of spell slots and magic items.
: Re: Need help collapsing a D&D empire
: Hansie September 20, 2011, 01:03:32 PM
Seems very meta-gamey to me, no matter how you do it.

Essentially, you are telling the players that the rules of the game are what destroyed the game world.   This seems like it is designed to draw attention to the inconsistencies and gaps in the rules, rather than to in-game story.  Of course, there is nothing wrong with meta-gaming, and this could end up being pretty fun.

If you were looking for fluffy explanations (not directly tied to the mechanics), there would be plenty of directions to go. 

I've always liked the idea that arcane casting is, in some way, blasphemous, no matter how good the intentions of the caster, like a little tear in the fabric of reality.  Add enough rips to that fabric, and who knows what happens... or how the mundanes/divine casters would react.

Perhaps the Gods have something to do with it.  Some caster gets to powerful, pisses them off, and they go on a mage-hunt, ripping every shred of arcane knowledge from the world.
: Re: Need help collapsing a D&D empire
: veekie September 20, 2011, 06:07:13 PM
I'm thinking its less a case of stasis than mutually assured destruction.

Any given spellcaster only requires a handful of slots to protect himself.
Any given spellcaster will be far worse at protecting himself than slaying others.
Any given mid level spellcaster only requires a small investment to completely alter the conditions of living with Fabricate, Planar Bindings and permanent magic items.

Therefore, its far more likely that the casters took over manufacturing, and food production after ganking their rivals and organizing into allied bands(sorta like the Cold War blocs). The economy became magically powered. At some point the infrastructure fails, and it all goes to hell.

So Eras:
Ascent to power - Magic becomes more commonplace.
Power grab - Rise to power. Establish power bases and kill immediate rivals
The Apprentice - Training the next generation of magi
Tippyverse - Magic proliferation as talents are put to use in changing society. Societies with great improvements in quality of life enjoy population boom, which breeds more magi to support them with. However, rise of substandard magi also means defective and cursed magic items infiltrate society.
And Man Grew Proud - Society grows decadent and impractical. People living where its scenic instead of where its easy to grow food, because magic produces all food to desired tastes. Architecture likewise transforms, as fortifications are impractical defenses against magic users of any power, they do not bother.
The Fall - Whatever resource magic draws upon is overtapped. Most spells are weakened and a majority of magic items cut out entirely.
The Crash - The aftermath of magical failure. Society is entirely dependent on magic for everything in life. Knowledge was stored in Silent Image projectors, most farmers know nothing about crops, but rather decorative plants, structures fail without maintenance. Mass starvation, and most wealth is rendered moot.
: Re: Need help collapsing a D&D empire
: bihlbo September 20, 2011, 11:07:05 PM
Seems very meta-gamey to me, no matter how you do it.

Essentially, you are telling the players that the rules of the game are what destroyed the game world.   This seems like it is designed to draw attention to the inconsistencies and gaps in the rules, rather than to in-game story.  Of course, there is nothing wrong with meta-gaming, and this could end up being pretty fun.

Perhaps the Gods have something to do with it.  Some caster gets to powerful, pisses them off, and they go on a mage-hunt, ripping every shred of arcane knowledge from the world.

It sounds like you understand exactly what I'm going for. Sure, it's going to be a little meta in that the big bad guys of the world don't have super powers described as "GM fiat". They have the spells in the book. You don't get to tell a story that involves a scary necromancer who launches a plan to control all the undead in the world with the power of a beholder's corpse - because that can't be explained in the core rules. But you can tell a story about a cleric who went crazy, discovered a horde of treasure, then used it to create a massive amount of powerful, uncontrolled undead who eventually killed him while his eyes were shut praying for spells.

Pissing a god off is easy. Doing it specifically with D&D magic is the trick. Chain-binding efreeti is bound to piss off the efreeti, who have, let's say, some pull with the lord of the plane of fire. The fluff is super-easy to come up with. I need help coming up with mechanic explanations that lend themselves well to inspired fluff.
: Re: Need help collapsing a D&D empire
: bihlbo September 20, 2011, 11:24:38 PM
I'm thinking its less a case of stasis than mutually assured destruction. [snip]
That's awesome stuff veekie! Some if it dovetails on my preliminary ideas, which were partially based on how many believe the Mayan empire fell. Run out of what makes the world go round and you go back to wearing leaves and eating people.

The only problem with this type of plan is that magic has no defined resource. Make one up? Sure, that's cool, and easy to do, but how do you make it a resource that is so intrinsic to D&D that after the players learn of it they have a hard time imagining D&D magic functioning any other way? Also, when the world runs out of oil, how do the cars keep going? I plan on running the game long in the future of this collapsed empire, and I want magic to be an option for players. What resource replaces the one that killed the empire once it was tapped?
: Re: Need help collapsing a D&D empire
: veekie September 21, 2011, 01:52:16 AM
The usual method is to have some sort of ambient source of power that naturally regenerates, and normally does so at such a rate that there would be no problems keeping it going despite large numbers of magi. However, overdrawing simply causes it to run out, and while all those magic items exist, it simply couldn't regenerate, since they were draining faster than its rate of recovery.
So you'd need time to pass, time for those devices to fail and break down. Then magic can heal.

Perhaps magic itself is literally powered by imagination and dreams, which the decadent society is not particularly rich in(or at least, not compared to the consumption rate required to power it). So while people live, it WILL recover(accretion of motes of fantasy over a century) , but you just need to take the drain off first.
: Re: Need help collapsing a D&D empire
: PhaedrusXY September 21, 2011, 06:38:10 PM
You don't really need the whole thing to be based on the "resource" of magic running out.

Widespread knowledge of magical power results in more people with power. Magic can be used for mass destruction. So you're literally talking about a world in which lots of people are walking around with weapons of mass destruction. While more powerful "good" mages could be doing their best to prevent others from just using these resources to inflict wanton mass destruction on large populations, it only takes one guy getting of a "locate city bomb" to destroy a populous (or even most of the world, if it is optimized enough). So there is one doomsday scenario, wholly within the RAW.

Another one is "massive spawning undead takover the world". In most D&D campaigns, I don't see how this hasn't already happened, in fact... It only takes one exponential spawn explosion in a metropolis to generate enough of these to doom everyone...
: Re: Need help collapsing a D&D empire
: Hansie September 21, 2011, 10:00:40 PM
A simple solution: the world reacts to the use of magic by building a tolerance to it.  This can happen in a couple of ways.

First, by design.  If wars are fought with magic, it only makes sense that people will turn to anti-magic, whether it's in the form of anti-magic fields, spell resistance, or crazy saving throw bonuses.  As these proliferate, wars go back to being won by the guy who commands the most burly men with big sharp sticks.  Mages return to their ivory towers and their lives of pointlessly arguing over how many homunculi they can fit on the end of a pin.  The magical economy crashes, and everyone returns to the dark ages.  Future generations listen to stories about what the old mages could do and laugh.  Occasionally someone dredges up some old knowledge and tries to use it for nefarious purposes, but they are easily defeated by peasants with their old anti-magic charms, which their grandmothers told them never to leave home without.

Second, by evolution. This is a bit fluffier.  Life will find a way.  If magic is everywhere, eventually everything will be right soaked with it, and will develop the same tolerance as above, only naturally.  Peasants of the future have built in spell resistance, or super-high saving throws, and laugh at the silly parlor tricks of the old mages. D&D wizards still exist, but no one cares.  The world itself could develop the same immunity as sentient beings.
: Re: Need help collapsing a D&D empire
: veekie September 22, 2011, 05:50:43 AM
Magic resistance won't crash a civilisation.
Spellcasters have two aspects:
Weapon of Mass Destruction
Utopia Enabler

Magic resistance only tempers the destructive aspect, resulting in a world gone tippyverse.
Widespread knowledge of magical power results in more people with power. Magic can be used for mass destruction. So you're literally talking about a world in which lots of people are walking around with weapons of mass destruction.
Fixed.

Yeah but he mentioned he didn't want it to be about "people are jerks", which is what it boils down to. I figured I could turn it into more, the world would be split in utopian/dystopian portions, depending on who the local strongman is, magic as a tool for conquest is fast and immediate, but its not so hot for holding territories so much as mutually assured destruction, whereas, without the XP nor spells known component for crafting(because PF allows crafting of wondrous items without the prereqs, it just takes a skill check at a higher DC), the more utopian concepts can be realized with large numbers of weak casters.

So you advance the whole shebang a few centuries and magic does everything in the civilized bastions, while in darklordpolis all non magi are crushed under the bootheels of their superiors. When you turn the magic OFF, the utopians crash and burn, nobody knows how to do anything without magic. The dark lords are overthrown, but their peasants are likely ignorant of just about anything as a control measure.
So you have a society with:
A) dispossessed mages, the ones making the world turn can no longer do it.
B) falling crowns, the darklords will face their revolts
C) failing facilities. Just imagine a modern city without electricity or oil.
D) lost knowledge. The peasants will have concepts of how to eke out a living from dirt, but no technology whatsoever. The utopians will have a lot of art, philosophy and magic theory, but the intermediate, PRACTICAL arts are for the most part lost.

Besides, the Locate City Bomb doesn't exist in pure PF(rather than PF/3.5 hybrid) yet. The components aren't present, so you'd have to settle for spawnpocalypse.
: Re: Need help collapsing a D&D empire
: glassgnawer September 22, 2011, 06:46:52 AM
Hmm, honestly i don't know how to solve the problem without some kind of "people are jerks" scenario (a magocracy, war, dystopia, revolt, whatever). You can try "vain mages summoned an entity from beyond, and world came to and end" (or "magic is really a living thing") but IMO it falls under wandering monsters (kinda). You can try to justify mages infigthing/creating a reign of terror with warhammerish "magic immanently corrupts" (instead of "people are jerks") but that's a) smells of homebrew and b) isn't much different from the "jerks" thingy. Alternatively, you can try a society with growing dependency of magic - then even a relatively minor magic mishap would become a pretty big deal - but again, it's a different take on "jerks" scenario.  

Oh, and sorry guys for going AWOL suddenly, RL got better of me.
: Re: Need help collapsing a D&D empire
: skydragonknight September 22, 2011, 07:14:25 AM
Along with what Veekie says, perhaps the overuse of magic is creating dead magic zones? Or, perhaps, overuse of conjuration magic weakens the planar barriers and the Blood War finds its way onto the Plane...
: Re: Need help collapsing a D&D empire
: veekie September 22, 2011, 07:49:16 AM
Its mostly because mages, other than the ability to edit physics at their word, are basically people in every sense of the word. They are not compelled to be magical or to use magic, and thus its just another tool. The only way around the people using the tool being at fault is the tool itself being inherently corrupt, misunderstood, misused or failing.
: Re: Need help collapsing a D&D empire
: skydragonknight September 22, 2011, 09:34:40 AM
Well, I assume that the society advances as new spells are developed. But what happens when magical experiments go horribly wrong?
: Re: Need help collapsing a D&D empire
: veekie September 22, 2011, 10:45:04 AM
Depends on how horribly, we talking Resident Evil wrong or LHC theory wrong?
: Re: Need help collapsing a D&D empire
: weenog September 22, 2011, 11:17:38 AM
Depends on how horribly, we talking Resident Evil wrong or LHC theory wrong?

What about a zombie so heavy it collapses under its own weight and takes the planet with it?
: Re: Need help collapsing a D&D empire
: Littha September 22, 2011, 11:56:55 AM
Depends on how horribly, we talking Resident Evil wrong or LHC theory wrong?

What about a zombie so heavy it collapses under its own weight and takes the planet with it?

don't be silly... what would you animate to do that?
 :p :lol
: Re: Need help collapsing a D&D empire
: Hansie September 22, 2011, 12:07:38 PM
Magic resistance won't crash a civilisation.
Spellcasters have two aspects:
Weapon of Mass Destruction
Utopia Enabler

Magic resistance may crash a civilization if that civilization is a magic-enabled Utopia.

Magic is the oil of a high-magic civilizations.  What happens when the oil runs out? 
: Re: Need help collapsing a D&D empire
: PhaedrusXY September 22, 2011, 12:13:39 PM
Magic resistance won't crash a civilisation.
Spellcasters have two aspects:
Weapon of Mass Destruction
Utopia Enabler

Magic resistance may crash a civilization if that civilization is a magic-enabled Utopia.

Magic is the oil of a high-magic civilizations.  What happens when the oil runs out? 
I don't buy it. Most of the spells used to enable a high-magic civilization don't target people at all.
: Re: Need help collapsing a D&D empire
: veekie September 22, 2011, 04:29:35 PM
Besides, running out isn't resistance. Its outright magic failure.
: Re: Need help collapsing a D&D empire
: Hansie September 22, 2011, 07:20:58 PM
Sure, my idea would require an expanded definition of "resistance," either in the form of proliferating fields of anti-magic or an increased "resistance" to magic from the world itself.  Also, if only non-targeted spells work anymore, mages become vulnerable to radical anti-magic sects, out to bring down the machine.  Luddites!

It's basically just a flipped version of magic being a resource that gets used up.  Magic is a gap in reality, and if it's used too much, reality closes that gap in one way or another.

But hey, if you don't like it, you don't like it.  The main reason I like it is that it could enable present-day adventurers to look back on magic in a similar way to how we look back on it.  People's ideas of what is real and possible change, and history becomes myth.  Ancient texts describe powerful Wish spells, but everyone knows that if Wishes were horses, we'd all be eating steak.
: Re: Need help collapsing a D&D empire
: PhaedrusXY September 23, 2011, 12:35:28 AM
Some of what's being discussed here reminds me of this game I was in for a while on here... (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?board=100.0)
: Re: Need help collapsing a D&D empire
: archangel.arcanis September 23, 2011, 06:24:27 PM
No one has had the simple epic spell development gone wrong? You get enough people doing research someone is going to screw up horribly. Add to that that any research worth doing is being pushed to higher levels of raw power and you are going from "oops I blew up my tower" to "the planet just lost weight due to vaporizing a lot of it"
: Re: Need help collapsing a D&D empire
: bihlbo September 28, 2011, 11:49:02 PM
Along with what Veekie says, perhaps the overuse of magic is creating dead magic zones? Or, perhaps, overuse of conjuration magic weakens the planar barriers and the Blood War finds its way onto the Plane...
The problem with that is that it's hard to find anything in the rules that say overusing magic creates dead magic zones. If I were to add it in, then I might as well just hand-wave the whole thing or blame it on zombies.

Its mostly because mages, other than the ability to edit physics at their word, are basically people in every sense of the word. They are not compelled to be magical or to use magic, and thus its just another tool. The only way around the people using the tool being at fault is the tool itself being inherently corrupt, misunderstood, misused or failing.
I don't think this last statement is true. Some spells either do too much, are too dangerous, or are too poorly-defined and are therefore Highly Problematic. Take storm of vengeance (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/storm-of-vengeance). If clerics started going to war with each other by using this spell in a town, one casting is going to kill all of the smaller animals and most of the big ones, kill all plants that aren't tree trunks, destroy most roofs, and kill anyone without at least 3 character levels. It stands to reason therefore, that clerics are going to treat this spell with kid gloves... until someone gets mind-controlled / makes a scroll that ends up in the hands of an anarchist rogue / decides his side is losing, so no one gets to live there anymore / is just really dumb. It doesn't have to be corrupting or failing for this spell to be problematic.

And that's why it's a useful spell for this exercise, because the only way to prevent it from ever being a huge problem is by removing it. Therefore it will certainly be a problem.

No one has had the simple epic spell development gone wrong? You get enough people doing research someone is going to screw up horribly. Add to that that any research worth doing is being pushed to higher levels of raw power and you are going from "oops I blew up my tower" to "the planet just lost weight due to vaporizing a lot of it"
There's a lot of potential with that route, but PF doesn't have epic-level stuff out (yet?) so I'm a little weary of letting this play center stage.
: Re: Need help collapsing a D&D empire
: bihlbo September 29, 2011, 12:59:04 AM
Unintended and mostly unavoidable consequences are mainly what I'm looking for here. Some RL examples:

: Re: Need help collapsing a D&D empire
: veekie September 29, 2011, 03:39:56 AM
Its mostly because mages, other than the ability to edit physics at their word, are basically people in every sense of the word. They are not compelled to be magical or to use magic, and thus its just another tool. The only way around the people using the tool being at fault is the tool itself being inherently corrupt, misunderstood, misused or failing.
I don't think this last statement is true. Some spells either do too much, are too dangerous, or are too poorly-defined and are therefore Highly Problematic. Take storm of vengeance (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/storm-of-vengeance). If clerics started going to war with each other by using this spell in a town, one casting is going to kill all of the smaller animals and most of the big ones, kill all plants that aren't tree trunks, destroy most roofs, and kill anyone without at least 3 character levels. It stands to reason therefore, that clerics are going to treat this spell with kid gloves... until someone gets mind-controlled / makes a scroll that ends up in the hands of an anarchist rogue / decides his side is losing, so no one gets to live there anymore / is just really dumb. It doesn't have to be corrupting or failing for this spell to be problematic.
Nuclear power analogy. AND, while that spell looks impressive on paper, its LESS harmful than a RL cruise missile. Given the damage, most stone and brick structures remain standing, civilians have plenty of time to get out of the way too(though a 16th level caster coming to eat their ass is a different problem), since they have a whole round to run before anything damaging happens, and then the second round is mildly damaging acid. It kills crops maybe but you can do that with less effort with a torch and some oil.

For the most part, you can disregard war spells. Damage and destruction won't matter, we have those and they destroy far more effectively than magic does. If you're looking at destructive or harmful magic, it boils down to "People are jerks". Mind control spells do not go the distance, most of them are single target, and you have to renew them, so a thought control society is out.

Maybe someone started up a zombie economy.
Maybe someone made use of a Bound outsiders economy.
Maybe someone itemized <insert spell that was not meant to be at will here> and it changed everything.
: Re: Need help collapsing a D&D empire
: oslecamo September 29, 2011, 04:34:20 AM
Nuclear power analogy. AND, while that spell looks impressive on paper, its LESS harmful than a RL cruise missile. Given the damage, most stone and brick structures remain standing, civilians have plenty of time to get out of the way too(though a 16th level caster coming to eat their ass is a different problem), since they have a whole round to run before anything damaging happens, and then the second round is mildly damaging acid. It kills crops maybe but you can do that with less effort with a torch and some oil.

For the most part, you can disregard war spells. Damage and destruction won't matter, we have those and they destroy far more effectively than magic does.

O'rrly?

First allow me to point you to Apocalypse from the sky from BoVD, that deals "just" 10d6 acid, fire, sonic or sonic damage, with a Fort negates. The spell description then continues on how "This damage typically levels forests, sends mountains tumbling, and wipes out entire populations of living creatures".

Now can you carry a cruise missile inside your pocket? Can you carry a full battery of cruise missiles inside your pocket?
Can you fully replenish your stock of cruise missiles in 24 hours with little material cost? Because those things aren't cheap at all.

What you may lose in nova capacity, you more than make up for it with the consinstency of a single psycho being able to level down cities again and again whitout any need of pesky infrastructure or logistic support.
: Re: Need help collapsing a D&D empire
: veekie September 29, 2011, 08:08:16 AM
Apocalypse from the Sky isn't exactly cheap to cast either without screwing with the component and Eschew Materials. Its extremely high level(and thus rare), a society with large numbers of people with the necessary bang to have a psycho survive to the level necessary, also has a larger population of similarly powerful people who can survive it, fix it or the like.

Look more to Control Weather for your 'wreck city' needs.
Don't forget you only need a mid level caster to start off a wightpocalypse or start binding outsiders.
You only need low level casters in bulk to flood the market with magic items in PF, since they only cost gold to make and you get that back by selling that shit.
: Re: Need help collapsing a D&D empire
: skydragonknight September 29, 2011, 09:45:01 AM
Look more to Control Weather for your 'wreck city' needs.
Don't forget you only need a mid level caster to start off a wightpocalypse or start binding outsiders.
You only need low level casters in bulk to flood the market with magic items in PF, since they only cost gold to make and you get that back by selling that shit.

I love it that the term I coined has proliferated so well.  The exact level to be fearful of is level 7, which is when the Enervation spell comes online as well as when Holy/Unholy weapons can be made (instantly slaying a 1 HD character of the wrong alignment who holds it via a negative level).

An Artificer can make Holy/Unholy arrows at 5th level, so that would likely be the best benchmark for this.
: Re: Need help collapsing a D&D empire
: oslecamo September 29, 2011, 11:19:24 AM
Apocalypse from the Sky isn't exactly cheap to cast either without screwing with the component and Eschew Materials. Its extremely high level(and thus rare), a society with large numbers of people with the necessary bang to have a psycho survive to the level necessary, also has a larger population of similarly powerful people who can survive it, fix it or the like.
Bad news for you, as you get exp for killing stuff, murdering psychos have a much higher chance of being the first ones to reach high level, in contrast to altruist people.

Look more to Control Weather for your 'wreck city' needs.
Why not simply look at fireball? At CL 10, it deals just as much damage as AFTS, just in a smaller area. Thus by the usual extrapolations used in this kind of D&D discussions, fireball spam can cause all the devastation of AFTS.

Don't forget you only need a mid level caster to start off a wightpocalypse or start binding outsiders.
Screw wights and calling effects. I rise you a master of shrouds that can summon shadows at 5th level, much faster, cleaner, and considerably harder to stop.

You only need low level casters in bulk to flood the market with magic items in PF, since they only cost gold to make and you get that back by selling that shit.
How does that colapses anything again? All the piles of magic treasure on the land had to come from some place. Shit gets sundered, disintregated and disjoined.  And we have multiple monsters out there that actualy have magic items as their primary diet.
: Re: Need help collapsing a D&D empire
: veekie September 29, 2011, 12:01:30 PM
^^
You generate huge stacks of Holy/Unholy weapons. Make Create Water devices etc etc etc. Come on you don't even have to think that hard to screw up a world with those unintentionally.

I'm trying to focus on the ways you can unintentionally, or even with the world's best interest, screw up the world badly.
Everything else boils down to: People are jerks. Like nuclear power, magic does nothing on its own, but must be wielded.
: Re: Need help collapsing a D&D empire
: oslecamo September 29, 2011, 02:36:26 PM
You generate huge stacks of Holy/Unholy weapons. Make Create Water devices etc etc etc. Come on you don't even have to think that hard to screw up a world with those unintentionally.

I'm trying to focus on the ways you can unintentionally, or even with the world's best interest, screw up the world badly.
You can look at our own world. We could easily feed everybody out there and give them medicine with our current technology. But we don't, because it wouldn't be profitable.

We know how to make artificial diamonds, but we still send people down to the mines and get "natural" diamonds that are much more expensive, and guess what, people still buy them for the extra price!

Meanwhile trillions of dollars are spent developing new and more sophisticated ways of killing ourselves, and the only reason we didn't glass our own planet is, ironically again, it wouldn't be profitable (a glassed region is a region where you can't set up shops).

To add to the crazyness, all of this is be done for pieces of paper and virtual numbers. We have atomic bombs and bombers and whatnot, yet we don't trade them in some kind of rare substance that is impossible to duplicate, but in mass-produced pieces of paper and floating numbers in computers.

So no, simple mass production of magic items won't be enough to colapse the world just like mass production of technology didn't colapse ours.

Now what colapses the world, is if a serial murderer can grow nukes out of his pockets if the police doesn't catch him soon enough (aka murdering psycho geting to enough level to start casting the big spells by himself).

Like nuclear power, magic does nothing on its own, but must be wielded.

Those are both blatant lies and you should feel ashamed of yourself for saying those.

The sun? It works on nuclear fusion. The Earth?  Natural fission of elements heats up the interior and slows down the cooling. Whitout either, our planet would be a frozen ball and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

D&D magic? It animates by itself. Not all monsters are the result of bored wizards, far from it. Plenty of monsters are basically magic gone wild and developing a will of its own.
: Re: Need help collapsing a D&D empire
: Lycanthromancer September 29, 2011, 07:07:14 PM
One word: wightocalypse.