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Play Like You Have To! => D&D Deliberations => : Prime32 August 25, 2011, 11:22:38 PM

: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: Prime32 August 25, 2011, 11:22:38 PM
Following on from a similar thread on Forgotten Realms (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=12699).

What things turn people off of Eberron? A few times I've seen someone react in shock to how different it is from most settings, but grow to love it once they started playing. I know a lot of aspects took a while to grow on me. Other things I've seen:

I will try to rebut some of these later (except the psionics one, which I will rebut now (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/18833134/Myth:_The_XPH_is_overpowered)), but first one of my own niggles:
The gods and planes are as bland as heck. Okay, by "the planes" I exclude Xoriat and Dal Quor which have large plot relevance. Likewise by "the gods" I mean mostly the Sovereign Host and the Dark Six, but they're supposed to be the most commonly worshipped. The good guys at least have proper names, but what post-The Gamers writer seriously calls a villain "The Shadow"? :p
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: InnaBinder August 25, 2011, 11:49:09 PM
I'll step up as tending to agree with your 8th bullet-point, about not enough powerful NPCs to deal with the PCs.  Once the PCs reach double-digit levels, you may well have to contrive reasons why they aren't taking over a Dragonmarked house, or usurping the Brelish throne, or destroying the Karnathi armies by wiping out so many undead as to decimate them, etc.  Yes, you could point the PCs toward some other pressing business, but if any of the preceding strikes their fancy, they're pretty likely to succeed, barring Deus Ex Machina or whole-cloth changes to some of the canon.
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: Unbeliever August 25, 2011, 11:58:34 PM
Shifters are kind of dumb.  Why not just make lycanthropes a race? 

I have the opposite feeling about the Steampunk.  If you're going to make a steampunk D&D settting, just fucking make it one (a la Iron Kingdoms).  Eberron falls into an uncanny valley where it's sort of steampunk, but then really not.  And, then some of the steampunk holes get plugged w/ magic.  I'd also make a decision:  either magic is mystical, or it's essentially like technology.  Again, Eberron seems to want it both ways.  If you want 2 different types of magic, then, one practiced by mystical treehugging elves and the other by artificers, then just throw in a simple mechanic (tweak arcane spell failure, etc.) and call them something different. 

I like the pulp approach to Eberron.  And, I like the post-war mentality, too.  But, I don't like how tepidly it seemed to approach the basic idea of a steampunk setting.  Oh, and I like their dragons a lot, actually.  Although I also loved the Dragons of Faerun book, so maybe those products just happened to be well-done. 
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: PhaedrusXY August 26, 2011, 12:28:20 AM
I'll step up as tending to agree with your 8th bullet-point, about not enough powerful NPCs to deal with the PCs.  Once the PCs reach double-digit levels, you may well have to contrive reasons why they aren't taking over a Dragonmarked house, or usurping the Brelish throne, or destroying the Karnathi armies by wiping out so many undead as to decimate them, etc.  Yes, you could point the PCs toward some other pressing business, but if any of the preceding strikes their fancy, they're pretty likely to succeed, barring Deus Ex Machina or whole-cloth changes to some of the canon.
Some people might call that a feature, rather than a flaw.  :p
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: borsniel August 26, 2011, 01:34:27 AM
i love Eberron for 1-8th lv games. as for higher level it dosent really work when pcs can start turning whole armies of undead :lol
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: weenog August 26, 2011, 01:44:22 AM
One thing that really bugs the shit out of me about Eberron is they started to treat goblinoids seriously as people, but then backed off and decided to still have them be beneath everyone else (http://www.goblindefensefund.org/eberron.html).  WotC worships the ground kobolds shit on, but even in the setting where goblinoids were the ancient powerhouse empire, gobbos get little more than a grudging acknowledgment than they're humanoids?  Way to waste an opportunity for awesome, guys.
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: Vaerenth August 26, 2011, 01:45:49 AM
I'll step up as tending to agree with your 8th bullet-point, about not enough powerful NPCs to deal with the PCs.  Once the PCs reach double-digit levels, you may well have to contrive reasons why they aren't taking over a Dragonmarked house, or usurping the Brelish throne, or destroying the Karnathi armies by wiping out so many undead as to decimate them, etc.  Yes, you could point the PCs toward some other pressing business, but if any of the preceding strikes their fancy, they're pretty likely to succeed, barring Deus Ex Machina or whole-cloth changes to some of the canon.
Some people might call that a feature, rather than a flaw.  :p

Don't start that again!
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: StreamOfTheSky August 26, 2011, 02:04:00 AM
I hate Warforged.  They're cheesy, laden with way too many immunities for my liking, required their own new rules "living constructs" and STILL had endless threads of "Can my Warforged...?"

Oh, and the Planar Shepherd, as you mentioned.  Seriously.  What.  The. Hell?
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: veekie August 26, 2011, 03:41:59 AM
Well, key points of contention:
-The planes, as mentioned, are really neglected, despite having a unique and distinct cosmology, as the planes come in and out of conjunction. Dal Quor and Xoriat, as antagonist-planes get some attention, but for all that Sharn is even possible at all due to a planar bleed, the rest are ignored.

-The Dragon Below. Now, you get to explore below the earth, and theres some mentions and sample antagonists down there, but they don't affect the overworld much, if at all. Wouldn't be all that much trouble to flesh out near surface areas and what the surface worlders are doing with it all.

-The Dragon Above. I bemoan the lost opportunity really. You have ways and means to get up to the ring of Siberys, with bound elemental crafts. You'd think some explorers would be going there. For the massive lewt if anything.

-Planar Shepherd. Cool concept, but notable for being one of the few classes that can make Druid better, MUCH better.

-Shifters. Again, cool concept, middling execution. For a people persecuted for shapeshifting abilities and the like, they really don't shift much at all. Wouldn't have hurt to have shifting being something more prevalent.

-Artificers. Concept -> Execution. The class is either mad-awesome(when you abuse the crafting rules, but thats really just the crafting rules fault), or terrible. Ditch the infusions for a Craft-Schematics business and let them make their own array of unstable, but functional contraptions! Traps! Mini and not-so-mini constructs!

-Higher level play. There ARE antagonists available on the planar, dragon or underworld  levels, but none of these are given much fleshing out. How do you go take a whack at these forces when theres no detail on the matter?
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: ImperatorK August 26, 2011, 04:16:43 AM
"Magic isn't rare and mystical enough."
Sometimes, when I need a change of pace or a little break from FRs high-magicness, I can play in Eberron.

"I hate steampunk."
I don't like steampunk. At least not in my fantasy. If I play D&D I want a LotR-esque game. Because of it's steampunkiness Eberron isn't that good for my.

"Changelings/kalashtar/shifters/warforged are dumb."
I love changelings, am indifferent to kalashtars and shifters and don't like warforged because of above points.

"The art is too anime." (WAT)
I didn't notice, but if it is it fails, because it doesn't appeal to me.

"Airships/magic trains remind me of Final Fantasy."
Yeah. Nothing wrong with that, but I don't like it in my fantasy.

"There aren't enough powerful NPCs to scare PCs into line."
I'm with InnaBinder on that one, although it's more "There's not enough published NPCs". Even in my homebrew setting I can create NPCs to keep the PCs in check, but it's just additional work for me. And I'm a lazy bum.

"Why the hell do halflings ride dinosaurs?!"
That's actually hilarious.

Some people might call that a feature, rather than a flaw.
Yes. I even said it in the FR thread.
A flaw would be something that makes the game somehow less playable for everyone. Yet that what you could call a flaw is just something you don't like, but someone else loves it.
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: LordBlades August 26, 2011, 06:40:42 AM
What I don't really like about Eberron:

-The lack of published material regarding some aspects of the world (like the planes, Syberys and Khyber etc)
-The fact that quite a lot of (very nice IMHO) material is so much connected to the lore that it makes a pain in the ass to try to import it in another setting without changing it's feeling radically.
-Past a certain level the world starts to crumble around the PCs, as in there's little in the published material capable to oppose them.




: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: ImperatorK August 26, 2011, 07:24:49 AM
Funny. That's the total opposite of FR. Yet I don't really feel that the two settings are THAT different. They're on different levels (one is low-powered/low-mediocre-magic, the other high-powered/high-magic), yes, but overall...
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: oslecamo August 26, 2011, 09:11:09 AM
Reasons why I only played straight Eberron once:
-Besides the dragons, it really doesn't have any space for high level characters.
-Warforged are suposed to be easily mass produced constructs, yet have no rules whatsoever for creating them.
-The above can actualy be said about a lot of Eberron's steampunk stuff, like the rail train.
-Airship rules suck.
-Hippie orcs. THOSE DAMN HIPPIE ORCS! What happend to bloodthirsty proud warriors?
-Suffers from 40K grimstupidness, where we have massive magic floating cities with mass produced magic tech in one corner wich are suposed to be open to everybody and centers of innovation and trade, and then a mud farm at three hours walk.
-Worst gods and religion ever.
-Arguably even more broken than Forgoten realms. Artificer, Planar Sheperd, those cheap psionic spike thingies that increase ML and stack, you name it.

So I developed my own post-apocalyptic Eberron setting, where most of civilization and organizations colapsed under their own stupidity (artficers and planar sheperds also helped) and new deities raised that do demand proper worship, and all magitech that couldn't be properly justified is simply gone.

-Artificers. Concept -> Execution. The class is either mad-awesome(when you abuse the crafting rules, but thats really just the crafting rules fault)

Thing is, you don't need to abuse the crafting rules. At all. The artficer class already does it for you. So I get everybody else's spells two levels earlier? And free metamagic? And free crafting exp? What else could I ask for?
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: Prime32 August 26, 2011, 09:15:10 AM
I have the opposite feeling about the Steampunk.  If you're going to make a steampunk D&D settting, just fucking make it one (a la Iron Kingdoms).  Eberron falls into an uncanny valley where it's sort of steampunk, but then really not.  And, then some of the steampunk holes get plugged w/ magic.  I'd also make a decision:  either magic is mystical, or it's essentially like technology.  Again, Eberron seems to want it both ways.  If you want 2 different types of magic, then, one practiced by mystical treehugging elves and the other by artificers, then just throw in a simple mechanic (tweak arcane spell failure, etc.) and call them something different.  
Eberron doesn't have any steampunk really, it's Dungeon Punk (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DungeonPunk). Steampunk is where steam power advanced further and became central to society. Eberron does the same thing with magic, examining how such a civilisation would grow from the ground up.


Any sufficiently analysed magic is indistinguishable from technology. Even if some parts are inexplicable, man can and will take advantage of the parts he can understand. (http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2050#comic)
Here's another example: http://everything2.com/title/How%2520mages%2520discovered%2520the%2520scientific%2520method

The more mystical magic is mostly buried in the ruins of lost civilisations. House Cannith relies on black boxes to construct the warforged. It's like in Indiana Jones where the ancient artefacts are implied to be advanced technology, except without that last part. I should also note that Eberron has rules for ancient spells which are so hard to understand that you can only learn and cast them once. Apart from that, most people will never advance far enough to master mid-level spells (apart from maybe the ones related to their dragonmark, which they can control through items), so they're going to seem pretty impressive. And there are plenty of things modern science doesn't understand yet. (How did they make Damascus steel? Why is the Sun inside out?)

Also, Eberron doesn't have treehugging elves. It has treehugging orcs. :p
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: Midnight_v August 26, 2011, 09:20:58 AM
Hey, I just wanted to add that I like ebberon for giving psionics a cannon home.
Thank you, Wizards.

also... I hated it at first. I'll have to elaborate later though. zzzzzzzzzzzzz...........
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: Prime32 August 26, 2011, 09:21:05 AM
-Warforged are suposed to be easily mass produced constructs, yet have no rules whatsoever for creating them.
That's because 1. you need an artefact to create them, 2. it's not legal any more, and 3. how warforged work is one of the great mysteries of the setting.

-The above can actualy be said about a lot of Eberron's steampunk stuff, like the rail train.
There are prices for lightning rails and conductor stones, and the mechanics of how they work are explained. And steampunk (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SteamPunk) requires steam power, which is completely absent from the setting. The lightning rail is pulled by air elementals, like a giant golem but harder to control.

-Suffers from 40K grimstupidness, where we have massive magic floating cities with mass produced magic tech in one corner wich are suposed to be open to everybody and centers of innovation and trade, and then a mud farm at three hours walk.
Did you have a specific place in mind here? The mud farm can still afford magical healing. And someone still has to run the farms.

So I developed my own post-apocalyptic Eberron setting, where most of civilization and organizations colapsed under their own stupidity (artficers and planar sheperds also helped) and new deities raised that do demand proper worship, and all magitech that couldn't be properly justified is simply gone.
What magitech "couldn't be properly justified"?

-Artificers. Concept -> Execution. The class is either mad-awesome(when you abuse the crafting rules, but thats really just the crafting rules fault)

Thing is, you don't need to abuse the crafting rules. At all. The artficer class already does it for you. So I get everybody else's spells two levels earlier? And free metamagic? And free crafting exp? What else could I ask for?
One level earlier</minor nitpick>
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: ImperatorK August 26, 2011, 09:39:56 AM
What magitech "can't be properly justified"?
Isn't it a flaw that you have to justify something?
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: oslecamo August 26, 2011, 09:53:03 AM
-Warforged are suposed to be easily mass produced constructs, yet have no rules whatsoever for creating them.
That's because 1. you need an artefact to create them, 2. it's not legal any more, and 3. how warforged work is one of the great mysteries of the setting.
1-Except they're a very recent creation in the timeline of Eberron, and there's multiple forges. Somebody not very long ago had to build them.
1.a-And heck, even artefacts have rules in D&D! Warforged forges have not.
2-Yeah, because something being illegal always stoped the PCs or some shady organization from wanting to use it. :rollseyes
3-They're one of the most recent developments in the setting. There's multiple forges. They have trillions of warforged-specific upgrades and prcs and variants. They know how warforgeds work better than they know how most other things work!

-The above can actualy be said about a lot of Eberron's steampunk stuff, like the rail train.
There are prices for lightning rails and conductor stones, and the mechanics of how they work are explained. And steampunk (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SteamPunk) requires steam power, which is completely absent from the setting. The lightning rail is pulled by air elementals, like a giant golem but harder to control.
So it requires magic steam. Is still steam.

-Suffers from 40K grimstupidness, where we have massive magic floating cities with mass produced magic tech in one corner wich are suposed to be open to everybody and centers of innovation and trade, and then a mud farm at three hours walk.
Did you have a specific place in mind here? The mud farm can still afford magical healing. And someone still has to run the farms.
Damn hippie orcs made a fortune plucking shiny stones from the mud despite having literally nothing else. Makes one wonder why somebody didn't just go there with an undead/warforged army and plucked the stones themselves.

What magitech "can't be properly justified"?
Warforgeds for one that are at the same time mass produced constructs to wich have been developed tons of upgrades and variants, yet nobody knows how to build them. Yet they're built.

Then why don't those crafter homunculus still haven't taken over living labor.

Plenty of others all along the books.

-Artificers. Concept -> Execution. The class is either mad-awesome(when you abuse the crafting rules, but thats really just the crafting rules fault)

Thing is, you don't need to abuse the crafting rules. At all. The artficer class already does it for you. So I get everybody else's spells two levels earlier? And free metamagic? And free crafting exp? What else could I ask for?
One level earlier</minor nitpick>

A third level artificer can get 3rd level spells, whereas other casters need at least 5th level. The artificer is geting them two character levels earlier.

And let's not speak of what happens when you start to abuse lower level spells from obacure Prcs or combining it with Ur-Priest.
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: Prime32 August 26, 2011, 10:07:20 AM
-Warforged are suposed to be easily mass produced constructs, yet have no rules whatsoever for creating them.
That's because 1. you need an artefact to create them, 2. it's not legal any more, and 3. how warforged work is one of the great mysteries of the setting.
1-Except they're a very recent creation in the timeline of Eberron, and there's multiple forges. Somebody not very long ago had to build them.
1.a-And heck, even artefacts have rules in D&D! Warforged forges have not.
2-Yeah, because something being illegal always stoped the PCs or some shady organization from wanting to use it. :rollseyes
3-They're one of the most recent developments in the setting. There's multiple forges. They have trillions of warforged-specific upgrades and prcs and variants. They know how warforgeds work better than they know how most other things work.
Warforged are not recent. They and many of their upgrades/variants were around as far back as the Age of Giants (the giants and quori used them as minions before the latter started taking over Riedra), and House Cannith just recently figured out how to recreate them. And it still doesn't explain why they're sentient now. Those warforged PrCs were invented by warforged themselves, who don't have to sleep and learn at insane speeds while they're young. All kinds of crazy weapons get invented in the middle of a war, often within insane timeframes - Cannith probably has warehouses filled with rejects like five-headed warforged who talk like Pokémon.

-The above can actualy be said about a lot of Eberron's steampunk stuff, like the rail train.
There are prices for lightning rails and conductor stones, and the mechanics of how they work are explained. And steampunk (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SteamPunk) requires steam power, which is completely absent from the setting. The lightning rail is pulled by air elementals, like a giant golem but harder to control.
So it requires magic steam. Is still steam.
That's like saying a horse-drawn carriage has an internal combustion engine because you need to feed the horse. The "lightning" isn't even from the elemental, it's raw magical energy leaking from the mag-lev rails conductor stones as they're put under pressure. There isn't any heat, let alone steam.

What magitech "can't be properly justified"?
Warforgeds fors one that are at the same time mass produced constructs to wich have been developed tons of upgrades and variants, yet nobody knows how to build them.
They know how to build them, it's just that the process involves an artefact. And you can give a man a prosthetic limb or glasses without understanding how to make a man. It's explicitly stated that warforged bodies are very easy to modify compared to most creatures.

Then why don't those crafter homunculus still haven't taken over living labor.
They're too small for mundane work, they're only good for enchanting items. And they're easily destroyed by vandals. And not everyone has the Craft Construct feat or wants to make something out of their own blood.


-Artificers. Concept -> Execution. The class is either mad-awesome(when you abuse the crafting rules, but thats really just the crafting rules fault)

Thing is, you don't need to abuse the crafting rules. At all. The artficer class already does it for you. So I get everybody else's spells two levels earlier? And free metamagic? And free crafting exp? What else could I ask for?
One level earlier</minor nitpick>

A third level artificer can get 3rd level spells, whereas other casters need at least 5th level. The artificer is geting them two character levels earlier.

And let's not speak of what happens when you start to abuse lower level spells from obacure Prcs or combining it with Ur-Priest.
I'm not arguing with you on this, artificer is silly-powerful.
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: RobbyPants August 26, 2011, 11:17:26 AM
I'll step up as tending to agree with your 8th bullet-point, about not enough powerful NPCs to deal with the PCs.  Once the PCs reach double-digit levels, you may well have to contrive reasons why they aren't taking over a Dragonmarked house, or usurping the Brelish throne, or destroying the Karnathi armies by wiping out so many undead as to decimate them, etc.  Yes, you could point the PCs toward some other pressing business, but if any of the preceding strikes their fancy, they're pretty likely to succeed, barring Deus Ex Machina or whole-cloth changes to some of the canon.
I've heard this about it, too. Mostly that they get too powerful for the world to really contain them. It just wasn't designed for it.
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: ImperatorK August 26, 2011, 11:47:11 AM
I'll step up as tending to agree with your 8th bullet-point, about not enough powerful NPCs to deal with the PCs.  Once the PCs reach double-digit levels, you may well have to contrive reasons why they aren't taking over a Dragonmarked house, or usurping the Brelish throne, or destroying the Karnathi armies by wiping out so many undead as to decimate them, etc.  Yes, you could point the PCs toward some other pressing business, but if any of the preceding strikes their fancy, they're pretty likely to succeed, barring Deus Ex Machina or whole-cloth changes to some of the canon.
I've heard this about it, too. Mostly that they get too powerful for the world to really contain them. It just wasn't designed for it.
Is that a bad thing? I wouldn't say so. The setting isn't for everyone, sure, but not bad because of that. I hope we agree on this.
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: veekie August 26, 2011, 12:29:41 PM
They know how to build them, it's just that the process involves an artefact. And you can give a man a prosthetic limb or glasses without understanding how to make a man. It's explicitly stated that warforged bodies are very easy to modify compared to most creatures.
To clarify, the Creation Forges rely on excavated artifacts that apparently provide them with sentience. Warforged have parts compatible with other excavated materials. Given that Awakening in general is beyond the setting's power level, I figure the Forges incorporated a device to Awaken a construct and give it a soul.
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: RobbyPants August 26, 2011, 12:49:12 PM
Is that a bad thing? I wouldn't say so. The setting isn't for everyone, sure, but not bad because of that. I hope we agree on this.
It depends on the point of view. I don't mind there being powerful influencing forces in the game, but I hate when the DM slaps his dick in people's face in the form of powerful NPCs. So, as a general rule, I consider it a good thing.

Anything beyond that has to be a gentleman's agreement. As long as everyone in the game is okay with X level of setting disruption/modification, then the game is good to go.
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: ImperatorK August 26, 2011, 01:00:01 PM
It depends on the point of view. I don't mind there being powerful influencing forces in the game, but I hate when the DM slaps his dick in people's face in the form of powerful NPCs. So, as a general rule, I consider it a good thing.
And what would you say if your DM would do it and said in his defense "It's canon that NPCs involve themselves in every adventure, so it's the settings fault that I'm forced to do it."?
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: InnaBinder August 26, 2011, 01:20:17 PM
It depends on the point of view. I don't mind there being powerful influencing forces in the game, but I hate when the DM slaps his dick in people's face in the form of powerful NPCs. So, as a general rule, I consider it a good thing.
And what would you say if your DM would do it and said in his defense "It's canon that NPCs involve themselves in every adventure, so it's the settings fault that I'm forced to do it."?
I'd say you're dragging an argument from another thread into this one.   :smirk
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: ImperatorK August 26, 2011, 01:23:21 PM
Did I mention FR somewhere? :smirk
I won't hide that the questioning has something to do with the other thread, but I'm just curious on RobbyPants's opinion.
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: PhaedrusXY August 26, 2011, 01:25:33 PM
It depends on the point of view. I don't mind there being powerful influencing forces in the game, but I hate when the DM slaps his dick in people's face in the form of powerful NPCs. So, as a general rule, I consider it a good thing.
And what would you say if your DM would do it and said in his defense "It's canon that NPCs involve themselves in every adventure, so it's the settings fault that I'm forced to do it."?
Then I'd say that setting sucks by definition.  :lol
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: ImperatorK August 26, 2011, 01:28:53 PM
But what if its not true and the DM is just making excuses?
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: weenog August 26, 2011, 01:30:18 PM
What if it is true and the fanbois will not leave their bickering in the other thread they turned to crap?

Powertripping NPCs with options they arbitrarily have and no PC can ever access are PITA whether it's the DM or the setting author that came up with 'em.
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: ImperatorK August 26, 2011, 01:34:18 PM
What if it is true and the fanbois will not leave their bickering in the other thread they turned to crap?
and what it's really not true and the haters are just ignoring any proof in their willful ignorance?
am I somehow banned from this thread because I'm a fan of some other setting? No? Then STFU. I was trying to not be rude, but you leave me no choice. If you're okay with being hostile then I can be too.
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: InnaBinder August 26, 2011, 01:43:27 PM
What if it is true and the fanbois will not leave their bickering in the other thread they turned to crap?
and what it's really not true and the haters are just ignoring any proof in their willful ignorance?
am I somehow banned from this thread because I'm a fan of some other setting? No? Then STFU. I was trying to not be rude, but you leave me no choice. If you're okay with being hostile then I can be too.
Deliberately dragging baggage from another thread to cross-post an argument is "trying not to be rude"? Really?
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: ImperatorK August 26, 2011, 01:49:49 PM
So I can't bring up points from other threads? Really? What my motivations have to do with anything? At this point you're just antagonizing me for some perceived ulterior motives. I can't even have a friendly discussion with RobbyPants because of your and Weenogs bullying.
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: veekie August 26, 2011, 01:54:58 PM
Actually, depends on the NPC role.
No DM lacks for powerful NPCs if such a role is warranted, adding a powerful NPC is a mid-game addition, depending on the sort. You can have a former adventurer rise to power(such things take under a year), a sealed evil awoken(such things only need someone foolish enough to unseal it or for a seal to unseal), arrive from another part of the world(planar in a low power setting, other continent if theres a Continent of Uberness or badass Underdark) or was created(someone makes a breakthrough that Should Not Be somewhere).
Say a Lord of Dust was awoken when the Mournland was created, and finally broke loose fully in Year -2 Circa Adventurers. Adventurers were involved when, 2 years after his release, he invades Aundaire with a legion of freed minions and takes half the country before they managed to rally a defense.

Removing an interfering NPC requires more work, as each such NPC has interests and territories they impact. The higher level they are, the wider the impact.
Say you need the Lolipope to not be present so that your PCs can wreck the power structure of Thrane. So she goes missing. Thrane is thus greatly weakened, and a theocratic uproar ensues.
This is a bad example mind you, as Jaela cannot leave her place and thus has minor impact.
So lets hypothesize, a ruler of Sharn who raised the city singlehandedly with one spell. His roles are to A) keep the city up by keeping the planar bleed JUST thin enough to allow levitating buildings but not thin enough for planars to rush in B)kick the ass of planars on the other side as they mess with the bleed C) rule Sharn D) annihilate things that threaten the structure of Sharn.
So now your PCs are going to do something like try to conquer the city. This would not work with Hypothetical Wizard Ruler, so hes going to suffer an accident. The angels on the other side has had enough and kidnapped him in force. Now the PCs are free to conquer the city....no wait, the city is about to fall, because the planar bleed is closing, the Houses, now that theres an opening for a leadership position fight for power, enemies of Sharn egg them all on, and drum up the forces to conquer the place, because they couldn't get close enough before said Wizard unleashes Slay Army spells.

See the difference?
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: weenog August 26, 2011, 01:57:32 PM
So I can't bring up points from other threads? Really? What my motivations have to do with anything? At this point you're just antagonizing me for some perceived ulterior motives. I can't even have a friendly discussion with RobbyPants because of your and Weenogs bullying.

You cannot troll incessantly, drag a thread you sent down in flames into another thread, and then play the victim card.  That's more of a tactic for stupid forums, GameFAQs for example.
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: PhaedrusXY August 26, 2011, 01:58:30 PM
So I can't bring up points from other threads? Really? What my motivations have to do with anything? At this point you're just antagonizing me for some perceived ulterior motives. I can't even have a friendly discussion with RobbyPants because of your and Weenogs bullying.

You cannot troll incessantly, drag a thread you sent down in flames into another thread, and then play the victim card.  That's more of a tactic for stupid forums, GameFAQs for example.
Well... you can, but you can't expect not to be called out for it (on here).  :eh
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: InnaBinder August 26, 2011, 02:00:06 PM
So I can't bring up points from other threads? Really? What my motivations have to do with anything? At this point you're just antagonizing me for some perceived ulterior motives. I can't even have a friendly discussion with RobbyPants because of your and Weenogs bullying.
Wow, if my responses in this thread qualify as "bullying", I'd hate to see what you consider some of the other forum regulars' typical responses.
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: ImperatorK August 26, 2011, 02:05:11 PM
Actually, depends on the NPC role.
No DM lacks for powerful NPCs if such a role is warranted, adding a powerful NPC is a mid-game addition, depending on the sort. You can have a former adventurer rise to power(such things take under a year), a sealed evil awoken(such things only need someone foolish enough to unseal it or for a seal to unseal), arrive from another part of the world(planar in a low power setting, other continent if theres a Continent of Uberness or badass Underdark) or was created(someone makes a breakthrough that Should Not Be somewhere).
Say a Lord of Dust was awoken when the Mournland was created, and finally broke loose fully in Year -2 Circa Adventurers. Adventurers were involved when, 2 years after his release, he invades Aundaire with a legion of freed minions and takes half the country before they managed to rally a defense.

Removing an interfering NPC requires more work, as each such NPC has interests and territories they impact. The higher level they are, the wider the impact.
Say you need the Lolipope to not be present so that your PCs can wreck the power structure of Thrane. So she goes missing. Thrane is thus greatly weakened, and a theocratic uproar ensues.
This is a bad example mind you, as Jaela cannot leave her place and thus has minor impact.
So lets hypothesize, a ruler of Sharn who raised the city singlehandedly with one spell. His roles are to A) keep the city up by keeping the planar bleed JUST thin enough to allow levitating buildings but not thin enough for planars to rush in B)kick the ass of planars on the other side as they mess with the bleed C) rule Sharn D) annihilate things that threaten the structure of Sharn.
So now your PCs are going to do something like try to conquer the city. This would not work with Hypothetical Wizard Ruler, so hes going to suffer an accident. The angels on the other side has had enough and kidnapped him in force. Now the PCs are free to conquer the city....no wait, the city is about to fall, because the planar bleed is closing, the Houses, now that theres an opening for a leadership position fight for power, enemies of Sharn egg them all on, and drum up the forces to conquer the place, because they couldn't get close enough before said Wizard unleashes Slay Army spells.

See the difference?
And how do PCs feel not-insignificant in such a setting? O.o

Wow, if my responses in this thread qualify as "bullying", I'd hate to see what you consider some of the other forum regulars' typical responses.
Okay, maybe I'm mistaken in your case. But you can see for yourself that Weenog is.

You cannot troll incessantly, drag a thread you sent down in flames into another thread
Funny how you objectively call me a troll for bringing up arguments that are opposite to your arguments. In a debate.
Sticking your finger in ears, saying "La la la la la" and ignoring other peoples points, and then calling them trolls for bringing them up isn't really a cool strategy.
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: weenog August 26, 2011, 02:07:45 PM
You cannot troll incessantly, drag a thread you sent down in flames into another thread
Funny how you objectively call me a troll for bringing up arguments that are opposite to your arguments. In a debate.

Do you just plain not understand that disagreeing loudly is not the same thing as arguing, and that a person might give up trying after you thoroughly demonstrate that you are completely unwilling to argue?
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: ImperatorK August 26, 2011, 02:10:00 PM
I have been arguing. Maybe not perfectly, but I was. And when I asked for opinion on another board that is more versed in FR lore (and someone from that board registered here and gave much more better arguments, but they where ignored), it was said that it is not cool to ask for help.
Being in majority doesn't mean that you guys are automatically right. This isn't a democracy.
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: RobbyPants August 26, 2011, 02:10:23 PM
It depends on the point of view. I don't mind there being powerful influencing forces in the game, but I hate when the DM slaps his dick in people's face in the form of powerful NPCs. So, as a general rule, I consider it a good thing.
And what would you say if your DM would do it and said in his defense "It's canon that NPCs involve themselves in every adventure, so it's the settings fault that I'm forced to do it."?
but I'm just curious on RobbyPants's opinion.
For me, personally? Since we tend to play solo games, with enough of that, I'd tell him point blank that I don't like it, and if it continued too much, I'd simply retire the character. I've done it in the past back in 2E when we were fledgling DMs/players. He always loved having powerful NPCs bark orders at my PC, and I tended to lose interest in the game shortly thereafter.

Don't get me wrong: I don't mind playing subservient PCs, but that's when the PCs choose to fill that role. I don't like being forced into it when I'm running more of a loner/independent type of character. If the game starts to fuck with my concept of the PC too much, I lose interest quickly.
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: ImperatorK August 26, 2011, 02:12:54 PM
And what setting was that?
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: weenog August 26, 2011, 02:15:32 PM
So, when everyone is telling you the same thing, you're completely unwilling (or unable) to argue with them, and ignoring or denying everything they've said doesn't work, being in the majority doesn't make them right, but when you yourself appeal to the majority taking your troubles to a FR fanboi forum, majority rules?  Interesting.
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: ImperatorK August 26, 2011, 02:18:23 PM
No. The people on Candlekeep have just more knowledge on FR then me, that's why I asked them for opinions.
But even points posted by someone that knows the setting in and out aren't good enough for you. Funny how not even one single argument from Tyrant wasn't refuted, and definitely not by you.
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: veekie August 26, 2011, 02:21:08 PM
Actually, depends on the NPC role.
No DM lacks for powerful NPCs if such a role is warranted, adding a powerful NPC is a mid-game addition, depending on the sort. You can have a former adventurer rise to power(such things take under a year), a sealed evil awoken(such things only need someone foolish enough to unseal it or for a seal to unseal), arrive from another part of the world(planar in a low power setting, other continent if theres a Continent of Uberness or badass Underdark) or was created(someone makes a breakthrough that Should Not Be somewhere).
Say a Lord of Dust was awoken when the Mournland was created, and finally broke loose fully in Year -2 Circa Adventurers. Adventurers were involved when, 2 years after his release, he invades Aundaire with a legion of freed minions and takes half the country before they managed to rally a defense.

Removing an interfering NPC requires more work, as each such NPC has interests and territories they impact. The higher level they are, the wider the impact.
Say you need the Lolipope to not be present so that your PCs can wreck the power structure of Thrane. So she goes missing. Thrane is thus greatly weakened, and a theocratic uproar ensues.
This is a bad example mind you, as Jaela cannot leave her place and thus has minor impact.
So lets hypothesize, a ruler of Sharn who raised the city singlehandedly with one spell. His roles are to A) keep the city up by keeping the planar bleed JUST thin enough to allow levitating buildings but not thin enough for planars to rush in B)kick the ass of planars on the other side as they mess with the bleed C) rule Sharn D) annihilate things that threaten the structure of Sharn.
So now your PCs are going to do something like try to conquer the city. This would not work with Hypothetical Wizard Ruler, so hes going to suffer an accident. The angels on the other side has had enough and kidnapped him in force. Now the PCs are free to conquer the city....no wait, the city is about to fall, because the planar bleed is closing, the Houses, now that theres an opening for a leadership position fight for power, enemies of Sharn egg them all on, and drum up the forces to conquer the place, because they couldn't get close enough before said Wizard unleashes Slay Army spells.

See the difference?
And how do PCs feel not-insignificant in such a setting? O.o
Uh...that was a reskinned Alustriel and Silverymoon.
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: kamikasei August 26, 2011, 02:21:32 PM
And how do PCs feel not-insignificant in such a setting? O.o
Which setting? veekie described two types: one where powerful NPCs aren't described in detail in advance and can be produced from inactivity as needed with some work by the DM to challenge her players appropriately, another where powerful NPCs are already described and active in the world and need to be removed by the DM to give her players freedom to act.

In the former case, why would the PCs feel insignificant? In the latter, where do you get the impression veekie expects them not to?
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: weenog August 26, 2011, 02:23:53 PM
Actually, depends on the NPC role.
No DM lacks for powerful NPCs if such a role is warranted, adding a powerful NPC is a mid-game addition, depending on the sort. You can have a former adventurer rise to power(such things take under a year), a sealed evil awoken(such things only need someone foolish enough to unseal it or for a seal to unseal), arrive from another part of the world(planar in a low power setting, other continent if theres a Continent of Uberness or badass Underdark) or was created(someone makes a breakthrough that Should Not Be somewhere).
Say a Lord of Dust was awoken when the Mournland was created, and finally broke loose fully in Year -2 Circa Adventurers. Adventurers were involved when, 2 years after his release, he invades Aundaire with a legion of freed minions and takes half the country before they managed to rally a defense.

Removing an interfering NPC requires more work, as each such NPC has interests and territories they impact. The higher level they are, the wider the impact.
Say you need the Lolipope to not be present so that your PCs can wreck the power structure of Thrane. So she goes missing. Thrane is thus greatly weakened, and a theocratic uproar ensues.
This is a bad example mind you, as Jaela cannot leave her place and thus has minor impact.
So lets hypothesize, a ruler of Sharn who raised the city singlehandedly with one spell. His roles are to A) keep the city up by keeping the planar bleed JUST thin enough to allow levitating buildings but not thin enough for planars to rush in B)kick the ass of planars on the other side as they mess with the bleed C) rule Sharn D) annihilate things that threaten the structure of Sharn.
So now your PCs are going to do something like try to conquer the city. This would not work with Hypothetical Wizard Ruler, so hes going to suffer an accident. The angels on the other side has had enough and kidnapped him in force. Now the PCs are free to conquer the city....no wait, the city is about to fall, because the planar bleed is closing, the Houses, now that theres an opening for a leadership position fight for power, enemies of Sharn egg them all on, and drum up the forces to conquer the place, because they couldn't get close enough before said Wizard unleashes Slay Army spells.

See the difference?
And how do PCs feel not-insignificant in such a setting? O.o
Uh...that was a reskinned Alustriel and Silverymoon.

I've never seen anyone get it in up to the hip before.  Normally the ankle hangs up on the tonsils.
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: RobbyPants August 26, 2011, 02:28:16 PM
And what setting was that?
Assuming that was aimed at me, it wasn't a published setting.
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: ImperatorK August 26, 2011, 02:29:16 PM
So let me get this straight: If in Eberron some major NPC is removed from the game (Lolipope goes missing) then it's perfectly okay, but in FR it's not allowed, because it won't be FR anymore? O.o

In the former case, why would the PCs feel insignificant?
Why wouldn't they? The players don't know of all the NPCs that roam the setting, but the NPCs "are out there somewhere", so the PCs have every right to feel insignificant.

In the latter, where do you get the impression veekie expects them not to?
Well, he was talking about Eberron and apparently only in FR PCs can feel that way. >.>

Assuming that was aimed at me, it wasn't a published setting.
How peculiar.
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: Sinfire Titan August 26, 2011, 02:38:50 PM
Funny how you objectively call me a troll for bringing up arguments that are opposite to your arguments. In a debate.
Sticking your finger in ears, saying "La la la la la" and ignoring other peoples points, and then calling them trolls for bringing them up isn't really a cool strategy.

A debate involves sound logic, an opinion, and facts to back up both. You have been stating an opinion the whole time, presenting very few facts, and not using sound logic (as I demonstrated in the other thread, you have a tendency to contradict yourself).



I didn't want to post in this thread, as I'm an unabashed Eberron fan. I'm still not going to post my opinion on some points here (other than agreeing that the Artificer is stupid-powerful).


Edit:

So let me get this straight: If in Eberron some major NPC is removed from the game (Lolipope goes missing) then it's perfectly okay, but in FR it's not allowed, because it won't be FR anymore? O.o

[spoiler]No, it's because some of the NPCs in FR are required to be there and maintain some part of the Realms' existence. The Lolipope is easily replaced by her own religion, but there would be turmoil (like when FDR died, or when Lincoln was shot). The repercussions of the Lolipope vanishing are less world-threatening than, say, one of the Chosen of Mystra vanishing (largely because of the Power Vacuum effect: The more powerful something is, the more damage it causes when it stops being there). While the Lolipope leads an entire religion, she is a figurehead and a liaison between the public and the Voice of the Silver Flame. She's easily replaced by the Voice.


Note: The Voice of the Silver Flame is not easily replaced, but is less easy to remove than the Lolipope. Hell, the writers did their best to make the Voice's existence vague (it's entirely possible she's dead and the entire thing is a hoax by the demon sealed in the flame, or if the flame itself is sentient, or other theories).[/spoiler]
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: kamikasei August 26, 2011, 02:40:43 PM
So let me get this straight: If in Eberron some major NPC is removed from the game (Lolipope goes missing) then it's perfectly okay, but in FR it's not allowed, because it won't be FR anymore? O.o
Where was the idea of Jaela going missing brought up? I thought people were saying Eberron has good reasons why its high-level NPCs, such as her, didn't involve themselves in even high-level matters that touch on their interests - in her case, because she's bound to her city. This is in contrast to NPCs who have detailed stats and motivations, who you have to contrive to take out of the picture if you don't want them to show up when the PCs adventures are something it's established they'd want to take a hand in.
In the former case, why would the PCs feel insignificant?
Why wouldn't they? The players don't know of all the NPCs that roam the setting, but the NPCs "are out there somewhere", so the PCs have every right to feel insignificant.
Note that veekie was describing antagonists. Why wouldn't the PCs feel insignificant if, after they've won lands, titles and sweet hats for saving the Five Nations from a Next War and are officially the biggest badasses on the continent, either personal friends or sworn enemies of the faction leaders they haven't personally killed to death, an archdemon awakens and they lead the fight against it? ...I don't know, that seems kind of self-explanatory to me.
In the latter, where do you get the impression veekie expects them not to?
Well, he was talking about Eberron and apparently only in FR PCs can feel that way. >.>
No he wasn't. You may want to read more carefully because at this point it looks as though you're not really parsing the arguments and examples people are making correctly.
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: RobbyPants August 26, 2011, 02:47:21 PM
Assuming that was aimed at me, it wasn't a published setting.
How peculiar.
I'll just be blunt:

I'm not sure I know what you're getting at. I know you're implying something, and I don't know what it is. Nothing I've said is inconsistent with anything I've previously said in this thread. I'm assuming it this something to do with the FR thread which I haven't really read. What are you getting at?
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: ImperatorK August 26, 2011, 03:04:57 PM
Well, I was avoiding brining FR too much because this thread is about Eberron, that's why I was kicking around the bush.
What I'm getting at is this: In the FR thread posters use this kind of arguments as proof that FR is flawed, because it's over-published (in countless novels and splatbooks), yet it happens even in not-published settings. Do you see any logic in that?
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: weenog August 26, 2011, 03:06:46 PM
Non-published settings that annoy and/or disinterest the players.  Published settings aren't above the same rejection for the same problems.
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: Bozwevial August 26, 2011, 03:07:10 PM
You guys do know this is the Eberron thread, right? Argue about the Forgotten Realms elsewhere. :p

My main problem with the setting is that later writers hijacked it and steered it toward more black and white morality instead of Baker's original concept. See Kaius for a decent example.
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: ImperatorK August 26, 2011, 03:17:20 PM
Sorry.

My main problem with the setting is that later writers hijacked it and steered it toward more black and white morality instead of Baker's original concept. See Kaius for a decent example.
Yeah. I wouldn't like that either.
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: veekie August 26, 2011, 03:32:09 PM
Hmm, hadn't been keeping up with the later books. Got a quick summation?
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: Bozwevial August 26, 2011, 03:43:17 PM
Hmm, hadn't been keeping up with the later books. Got a quick summation?
Kaius turns from a tragic, sympathetic figure to a stock bloodthirsty vampire. The writers focus more on the vampire part rather than the fact that his vampirism and bloodlust are forced on him in the first place.
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: RobbyPants August 26, 2011, 03:48:03 PM
Well, I was avoiding brining FR too much because this thread is about Eberron, that's why I was kicking around the bush.
What I'm getting at is this: In the FR thread posters use this kind of arguments as proof that FR is flawed, because it's over-published (in countless novels and splatbooks), yet it happens even in not-published settings. Do you see any logic in that?
I see what you're saying.

Still, if we take the approach that:
Then, it seems rational to conclude that the particular setting is more likely to suffer from this problem. Sure, it's not a given, but it is a knock against the setting.

I mean, I can play Russian Roulette with a gun with one or two bullets in the gun. While I could live or die either way, I'm still going to pick the gun with only one bullet. It's less likely to end badly.
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: Midnight_v August 26, 2011, 03:55:11 PM
Hmm, hadn't been keeping up with the later books. Got a quick summation?
Kaius turns from a tragic, sympathetic figure to a stock bloodthirsty vampire. The writers focus more on the vampire part rather than the fact that his vampirism and bloodlust are forced on him in the first place.
Wow that sucks. I just discovered Ebberon as a story really, just sat down and read the whole thing, not for mechanics, then skim the story, but read it for story.
I really liked kaius, I thought it to be a interesting take to have a vampire king that wasn't a pastiche of dracula (Straud). I loved the whole harem of non-vampires who he drinks without killing, never visiting them more than once every 2 weeks.
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: wotmaniac August 26, 2011, 04:36:21 PM
  • "Why the hell do halflings ride dinosaurs?!"
Actually, this is almost as cool as Athasian halflings.
(well, okay, maybe not; but you get my drift)
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: veekie August 26, 2011, 04:41:03 PM
  • "Why the hell do halflings ride dinosaurs?!"
Actually, this is almost as cool as Athasian halflings.
(well, okay, maybe not; but you get my drift)
Simple reasoning, and one I borrowed. They're Small, they fit on a lot more kinds of mounts.

Hmm...cool mounts...


I know! DINOSAUR HALFLING BATTLEBUS!
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: oslecamo August 27, 2011, 06:25:46 PM
Warforged are not recent. They and many of their upgrades/variants were around as far back as the Age of Giants (the giants and quori used them as minions before the latter started taking over Riedra), and House Cannith just recently figured out how to recreate them. And it still doesn't explain why they're sentient now. Those warforged PrCs were invented by warforged themselves, who don't have to sleep and learn at insane speeds while they're young. All kinds of crazy weapons get invented in the middle of a war, often within insane timeframes - Cannith probably has warehouses filled with rejects like five-headed warforged who talk like Pokémon.
Precisely. There's all kinds of fun stuff being invented and PCs can't get a share of it.

That's like saying a horse-drawn carriage has an internal combustion engine because you need to feed the horse. The "lightning" isn't even from the elemental, it's raw magical energy leaking from the mag-lev rails conductor stones as they're put under pressure. There isn't any heat, let alone steam.
Ok, still a very minor diference from steampunk. The spirit is completely the same.

They know how to build them, it's just that the process involves an artefact. And you can give a man a prosthetic limb or glasses without understanding how to make a man. It's explicitly stated that warforged bodies are very easy to modify compared to most creatures.
How to make a man:
-Get a man and a women togheter.
-Get them drunk and/or hot (optional) or put their stuff togheter inside a lab tube and then back into the women.
-Wait around 9 months to get a baby.
-Rise the baby for 20-30 years.
-Congratulations, you have yourself a man. Any biology book can fill you into the details.

There.

Then why don't those crafter homunculus still haven't taken over living labor.
They're too small for mundane work, they're only good for enchanting items. And they're easily destroyed by vandals. And not everyone has the Craft Construct feat or wants to make something out of their own blood.
You've got those bigger warforgeds for heavier work and you get combat homunculus for protection.
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: Unbeliever August 27, 2011, 11:06:51 PM
@Steampunk
Steampunk is, in my humble opinion, clearly an aesthetic.  It's funky, clunky tech that does fantastical things.  I think lightning rails, just like fantastic airships, are right in steampunk's wheelhouse.  This is regardless of whether they are powered by steam.  Like, I think relatively little steampunk is actually steam-powered.  Jules Verne is one of the spiritual fathers of steampunk, and I think the Nautilus is nuclear-powered.  Maybe it's electric?  I'm almost positive it's not steam.  Escaflowne is another example -- steampunk mecha -- although I think they are powered by dragon-based phlebotinum rather than steam.  But, they have the kind of retro, weird lack of tech that evokes the aeshetic. 

Likewise, lightning rails are pretty iconically steampunk, whatever their pseudo-explanation. 

Whatever it is, I find Eberron a little too much of a hybrid in this way.  I appreciate its pulp sensibility.  But, I'd appreciate it if they better calibrated the tone.  I think it would make it more appealing, at least to those people who will find it appealing, and a bit more different from the standard D&D fare. 

This is actually my biggest issue w/ 4E settings.  By trying to make everything mechanically identical (even though they introduce 50 new powers, feats, etc. in every issue of Dragon ...), they have ended up whitewashing all the settings to make them feel too similar. 

I prefer many elements of the Iron Kingdoms to Eberron, but I find it too over the top and childishly grimdark for my tastes (and this is setting aside its awful rules).

I do like the astrological take on the planes.  I actually stole that for one of my games. 
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: Prime32 August 28, 2011, 12:14:59 AM
Warforged are not recent. They and many of their upgrades/variants were around as far back as the Age of Giants (the giants and quori used them as minions before the latter started taking over Riedra), and House Cannith just recently figured out how to recreate them. And it still doesn't explain why they're sentient now. Those warforged PrCs were invented by warforged themselves, who don't have to sleep and learn at insane speeds while they're young. All kinds of crazy weapons get invented in the middle of a war, often within insane timeframes - Cannith probably has warehouses filled with rejects like five-headed warforged who talk like Pokémon.
Precisely. There's all kinds of fun stuff being invented and PCs can't get a share of it.
Eh? I'm not sure what you mean. PCs can't get a share of warforged raptors (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070618a&page=5)?

Then why don't those crafter homunculus still haven't taken over living labor.
They're too small for mundane work, they're only good for enchanting items. And they're easily destroyed by vandals. And not everyone has the Craft Construct feat or wants to make something out of their own blood.
You've got those bigger warforgeds for heavier work and you get combat homunculus for protection.

That doesn't happen because the human laborers riot whenever anyone tries (there's even a picture of it in one of the books). Being really efficient workers is one of the biggest reasons warforged are discriminated against.
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: oslecamo August 29, 2011, 08:41:39 AM
You know, I just realized why there aren't any high level PCs or NPCs in Eberron.

Artificer 15 and druid 5/planar sheperd 10 prevent anyone else from ever geting that high. Dragons claim they're studying the prophecy, but they're actually just banding all togheter in an island for mutual protection against the terror provided by them. That's also why Daelkyrs prefer to sit comfly inside their prisons instead of breaking free.

Eh? I'm not sure what you mean. PCs can't get a share of warforged raptors (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070618a&page=5)?
That and warforged titans and that underwater thingy and good luck actualy geting an airship whitout some money cheese that would better be invested in equipment.

That doesn't happen because the human laborers riot whenever anyone tries (there's even a picture of it in one of the books). Being really efficient workers is one of the biggest reasons warforged are discriminated against.
Image source please.

That would also fall under grimstupidness, where the pitchfork human laborers are somehow a threat to the artificers and their construct armies and airships and whatnot.

: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: Prime32 August 29, 2011, 08:50:12 AM
Eh? I'm not sure what you mean. PCs can't get a share of warforged raptors (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070618a&page=5)?
That and warforged titans and that underwater thingy and good luck actualy geting an airship whitout some money cheese that would better be invested in equipment.
Vehicles and buildings have always been expensive. If you want one, you can use the stronghold rules.

That doesn't happen because the human laborers riot whenever anyone tries (there's even a picture of it in one of the books). Being really efficient workers is one of the biggest reasons warforged are discriminated against.
Image source please.

That would also fall under grimstupidness, where the pitchfork human laborers are somehow a threat to the artificers and their construct armies and airships and whatnot.
I tried to find it before posting, but couldn't. It's probably in Five Nations or The Forge of War.

And no, warforged aren't property any more and artificers can't build any more warforged (except Merrix d'Cannith, but don't tell anyone). They have the same rights as people, and look for work in the same way. A gang of laborers can easily get rid of a single warforged; if not directly, they can put pressure on their employer. If they do attack him directly, then the warforged is probably aware that if he defends himself his trial will be about as fair as To Kill A Mockingbird.

Why would the existence of aircraft reduce racism? ???
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: oslecamo August 29, 2011, 09:05:53 AM
Because it's much harder to mob up the dudes in the air.
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: skydragonknight August 29, 2011, 09:34:04 AM
The good guys at least have proper names, but what post-The Gamers writer seriously calls a villain "The Shadow"? :p

Well, when considering a corrupting force in a campaign setting, you have to ask yourself: Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men?
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: Prime32 August 29, 2011, 06:30:38 PM
Because it's much harder to mob up the dudes in the air.
Why would artificers want warforged unrelated to them to find jobs, to the point of stealing military vehicles and using them to attack commoners? Especially when they're competing with some of those warforged for their own jobs.

Also, found the pic:
(http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/sharn_gallery/84575.jpg)

EDIT: On high-level threats, apart from the epic dragons and rakshasa rajahs, the CR20 daelkyr, and the CR18 ascendant councellors, it's implied that there are things far worse lying in Xoriat and Dal Quor that have not yet made themselves known. Xoriat is Eberron's equivalent of the Far Realm, so they presumably have things like Brain Collectors. And the quori are remarkably similar to Dream Larvae in both appearance and origin. Then there's Il'Lashtavar, the Dreaming Dark itself. Who is basically Kaiser Ephes (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmuqIFZ5Z3s).
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: Littha August 30, 2011, 01:05:48 AM
I like how that attack only took off 1/5 of his lifebar...
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: Prime32 August 30, 2011, 08:36:12 AM
I like how that attack only took off 1/5 of his lifebar...
Boosts are really powerful in that game.
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: Infected August 30, 2011, 10:21:06 AM
Iron Wall and Gunbuster being quite sturdy helps a lot. Don't remember if that attack had a morale requirement, but if not, then Keiser Ephes could also be debuffed. Whether an attack is coming of 70 or 130 Morale makes a big difference.
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: oslecamo August 30, 2011, 09:48:32 PM
Because it's much harder to mob up the dudes in the air.
Why would artificers want warforged unrelated to them to find jobs, to the point of stealing military vehicles and using them to attack commoners? Especially when they're competing with some of those warforged for their own jobs.
For the very same reason powerfull filthy rich companies win processes over small workers and groups like greenpeace. Money is power. Warforged and artficers are more productive than mud farmers. The only logic conclusion is thus warforged and artificers geting on top of mud farmers. The common people may make all the riots they want, the governments will just call the anti-riot forces and hire the warforged and artficers anyway.

EDIT: On high-level threats, apart from the epic dragons and rakshasa rajahs, the CR20 daelkyr, and the CR18 ascendant councellors, it's implied that there are things far worse lying in Xoriat and Dal Quor that have not yet made themselves known. Xoriat is Eberron's equivalent of the Far Realm, so they presumably have things like Brain Collectors. And the quori are remarkably similar to Dream Larvae in both appearance and origin.
No, they don't.

Xoriat is a watered down version of the far realm.
Quori are watered down versions of dream larvae.

That's half the point of Eberron. Remove almost the high-power monsters from existence and just leave a few to serve as leaders of factions (and dragons because this is still Dungeons and Dragons, but they're all stuck in a island being philosophical, nice riddance). That's it. There's nothing else stronger hiding in the darkness, or it would've simply came out by now.  Heck if you somehow get above CR 15, you basically get your own cult!

Then there's Il'Lashtavar, the Dreaming Dark itself...
Based on what again? Last time I checked, when the balmarian attacked they had freaking war moons and planet-absorbing replicator machines. As their damn scouts. The quori have just a bunch of organic bugs with minor psionic powers that get a footnote in Eberron's history compared to all the other main factions.
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: Infected August 30, 2011, 10:07:08 PM
Based on what again? Last time I checked, when the balmarian attacked they had freaking war moons and planet-absorbing replicator machines. As their damn scouts. The quori have just a bunch of organic bugs with minor psionic powers that get a footnote in Eberron's history compared to all the other main factions.

Last I checked(That is to say 3.5 material) they managed to conquer pretty much a complete continent on the surface of Eberron through subterfuge. That sounds more then "a footnote"

Then again what am I to expect from the guy with the avatar of the single most horrible OG char created. And concerning your comments about the Balmar Empire, the Septuagint is a last ditch weapon when things have gone terribly, terribly wrong and in the whole of the Balmar Empire there are exactly 7 Zehiruts.
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: oslecamo August 30, 2011, 10:19:33 PM
Then again what am I to expect from the guy with the avatar of the single most horrible OG char created.
That's just envy because you know Kyosuke is the only OG character manly enough to bitch-slap Sanger Zonvolt. :smirk

And concerning your comments about the Balmar Empire, the Septuagint is a last ditch weapon when things have gone terribly, terribly wrong and in the whole of the Balmar Empire there are exactly 7 Zehiruts.

Funny that for a "last ditch" weapon, the Inspectors that came after it was defeated were pretty relaxed. :p
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: Infected August 30, 2011, 10:39:39 PM
Then again what am I to expect from the guy with the avatar of the single most horrible OG char created.
That's just envy because you know Kyosuke is the only OG character manly enough to bitch-slap Sanger Zonvolt. :smirk

And concerning your comments about the Balmar Empire, the Septuagint is a last ditch weapon when things have gone terribly, terribly wrong and in the whole of the Balmar Empire there are exactly 7 Zehiruts.

Funny that for a "last ditch" weapon, the Inspectors that came after it was defeated were pretty relaxed. :p

Actually he isn't, in fact I don't even think that he does any kind of "bitch-slapping" to Zengar. Though Zengar certainly gets slapped around by other characters.

And when we are talking about Neviim now, you should have made that clear, it's not really moon sized, it's a big battle station, but in comparison to the earth's moon it's tiny. And again not many of them around since they are pretty much meant as a 1 per fleet deal.
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: Prime32 August 30, 2011, 11:14:00 PM
The Inspired build insanely huge psychic monoliths all over the place, and no one knows what they do. Who's to say they aren't a fleet of ships equipped with "Mourning Cannons"? :p

You could argue that there's no evidence for that, but a big part of Eberron is that certain parts are deliberately left ambiguous so that you can use something suitable for your campaign. I recall one WotC thread on Cardinal Krozen where Keith Baker explained the guy's history but refused to state whether he was a good guy with extreme methods or a power-mad bully. He said he'd prefer having to figure it out each time he played an Eberron game. Likewise, the cause of the Mourning will never be explained.

As for "there may be even more dangerous things in Xoriat/Dal Quor", it says that in the ECS itself. Heck, most people don't even know they invaded - how much info do you think exists?

And concerning your comments about the Balmar Empire, the Septuagint is a last ditch weapon when things have gone terribly, terribly wrong and in the whole of the Balmar Empire there are exactly 7 Zehiruts.

Funny that for a "last ditch" weapon, the Inspectors that came after it was defeated were pretty relaxed. :p
The Inspectors are always relaxed - they're idiots. The entire reason they came was because humanity had become too dangerous. Also, the Inspectors weren't Balmarians, they were the Balmarians' enemies.
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: archangel.arcanis August 31, 2011, 11:29:13 AM
Why is it that everyone is complaining about Eberron having a distinct lack of high level enemies?
: ECG
10 things you need to know about Eberron...
1) If it exists in D&D it has a place in Eberron...
That seems quite definative that if it is stated up in D&D then it is in Eberron it is just up to the DM to define exactly where and what the hell it is doing.  :P
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: oslecamo August 31, 2011, 10:49:24 PM
The Inspired build insanely huge psychic monoliths all over the place, and no one knows what they do. Who's to say they aren't a fleet of ships equipped with "Mourning Cannons"? :p

You could argue that there's no evidence for that, but a big part of Eberron is that certain parts are deliberately left ambiguous so that you can use something suitable for your campaign. I recall one WotC thread on Cardinal Krozen where Keith Baker explained the guy's history but refused to state whether he was a good guy with extreme methods or a power-mad bully. He said he'd prefer having to figure it out each time he played an Eberron game. Likewise, the cause of the Mourning will never be explained.
I'm perfectly aware of the amiguity. And I loathe it. If I'm paying for a specific campaign setting, I expect specific details.

So yes, the ships equiped with whatever cannons only exist in your homebrewed campaign setting, and the actual Eberron campaign is a mess of black holes that threaten to consume everything around them. That's why I killed them all with fire on my own personal version.

As for "there may be even more dangerous things in Xoriat/Dal Quor", it says that in the ECS itself. Heck, most people don't even know they invaded - how much info do you think exists?
Like you just mentioned, not much, just like most of the rest of Eberron. Almost nobody knows how to make warforged, almost nobody knows what the monoliths are for, almost nobody, of course, knows anything about the quori. Yet at the end of the day warforged are being built everywhere, the monoliths are doing nothing, and the strongest quori ever recorded is a measly CR 8 (thus a more dangerous quori would be at best a somewhat respectable CR 12).

The Inspectors are always relaxed - they're idiots. The entire reason they came was because humanity had become too dangerous. Also, the Inspectors weren't Balmarians, they were the Balmarians' enemies.

False. The Inspectors all panic when cornered and are facing their iminent doom. Their boss even tries to make a run for it.

Yet the inspectors were initially unphased by the fact that the heroes beat the balmarian force. As their enemies, the Inspectors would surely know the power of the white star. They even take control of it.

If they really believed the balmarians had thrown their best and still lost, then the Inspectors would've simply glassed the Earth and called it a day. They take Earth's heroes lightly and try to simply contain them because they beat "just" the septuagim.
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: veekie September 01, 2011, 04:27:00 AM
Like you just mentioned, not much, just like most of the rest of Eberron. Almost nobody knows how to make warforged, almost nobody knows what the monoliths are for, almost nobody, of course, knows anything about the quori. Yet at the end of the day warforged are being built everywhere, the monoliths are doing nothing, and the strongest quori ever recorded is a measly CR 8 (thus a more dangerous quori would be at best a somewhat respectable CR 12).
Clarification on the quori:
Kalaraq Quori - Secrets of Sarlona, CR 20

The warforged, as mentioned, rely on lost technology to create. Thats the big secret, that the Creation Forges are powered by lost tech.

The Monoliths are intentionally black boxes, but they do this much at least
: Secrets of Sarlona
In Khorvaire, magic is part of everyday life; adepts and
magewright s are found in most villages . In Riedra,
both magic and psionic power are tightly controlled
and largely confined to the Inspired and the Chosen.
However, a few psionic effects have an impact on daily
life. These are essentially wondrous locations (ECS 272)
created and controlled by the quori. For the people of
Riedra, such wonders are proof of the miraculous power
of their benevolent overlords.

All of these functions draw power from the hanbalani
altas, the massive monoliths spread across the nation. If a
monolith is shut down or destroyed, any community tied
to it loses access to these functions.

These are the most common effects , but the
Inspired can develop new techniques , and you should
feel free to invent effects unique to a specific bastion or
village. A bastion might have an inner sanctum shielded
by an impenetrable wal l of ectoplasm; the only way to get
past this field is to shut down the local monolith.

Climate Control: Inspired architects have devel­
oped crystal plating that, through kinetic manipulation,
can be heated or cooled and can even draw moisture out
of the air. Thi s effect uses considerable power, and it's
rarely seen outside the palaces of the Inspired or the
Chosen. Nonetheless, in the tropical climate of Cor-
vagura, entering a cool, dry palace can have a consider­
able impact on a traveler.

Crystal Illumination: Riedran architecture often
incorporates a form of crysteel. When properly treated
and charged with energy from a monolith, a structure
containing that material sheds colorful light. A bastion
city can be a remarkably beautiful sight at night. In a vil­
lage, buildings are not actually constructed of crysteel,
but beacons are set at key points to provide illumination.
Riedran communities have two grids of light—key regions
remain lit at all times, but other areas (such as living
quarters) are shut off after curfew. Light is a gift of the
Inspired; they provide it, and they take it away.

Dreamshaping: One of the primary purposes
of the hanbalani is to shape the dreams of the Riedrans,
projecting soothing dreams across the nation. Thi s is
a delicate art; unlike charm or dominate, a dream does not
force the target to take any action. It simply plants an
idea; if the subject acts, he does so of his own free will.
In limited circumstances, nocturnal manipulation
involves targeted dreams, visions crafted for a particular
subject. By this means, the quori sparked the Sundering
and continue to undermine their enemies.

A far more insidious dream conditioning occurs
over a wide area. Effectively, the network of monoliths
projects a constant, low-level dream effect across Riedra.
Anyone who falls asleep must attempt a DC 17 Will save.
Those who fail have the dream that is currently being
projected. The typical Riedran dream is soothing and
vague, blending images to project the wonder of Riedra,
the joys of being part of a greater whole, and the celes­
tial benevolence of the Inspired. Every so often, these
soothing visions are interspersed with flashes of the dark
horrors that lurk outside the borders of Riedra. Although
insufficient to change the views of a PC over a short time,
the dreams serve to constantly reinforce a Riedrans
indoctrination. Although a saving throw is allowed, Rie­
drans voluntarily fail it. A Riedran takes comfort in her
stable dreams and looks forward to resting and bathing
in the love of the Inspired. The widespread knowledge
that Riedrans suffer from chaotic, unpredictable dreams
when in foreign lands is one more reason they hate to
leave their homeland.

Monolith dreamshaping is a background effect,
and targeted use of dream, nightmare, or a similar ability
takes precedence over the broadcasts . Furthermore,
anyone who has the Dream Scion feat is immune to
dreamshaping.

The content of dreams is controlled from Dal
Quor, and it can be made more specific (for example,
broadcasting the image of a wanted criminal) . A par­
ticular dream can be targeted at a village, a sphere, or
the entire nation. The quori can also choose to use the
dreamshapers to project nightmares across a region.
In thi s case, any sleeper who fails the saving throw is
fatigued, and the disturbed sleep is insufficient for
regaining infusions , power points , and spells . These
nightmare attacks are usually blamed on kalashtar,
dromites, or altavars.

Scry Shielding: The Inspired have long shielded
their realm from prying eyes. Although the monoliths
are not as powerful as the Shroud of Adar, each one proj­
ects a nondetection effect (DC 31) that blocks all attempts to
scry into Riedra. The Riedran shield blocks scrying only
from outside sources; once someone penetrates the bor­
ders, all powers and spells function normally. Disrupting
this field would require the destruction of a substantial
number of monoliths, and even doing this would only
drop a segment of the shield.

Teleportation: The larges t bastion cities and
kintams (fortresses) are linked by a network of perma­
nent psionic teleportation circles. While these are created by
the most powerful Inspired nomads , they draw on the
hanbalani for power. Shutting down a monolith could
prevent the Inspired from summoning reinforcements
or escaping.

The Soothing Voice: The hanbalani network allows
the quori to broadcast telepathic messages across wide
areas. Thi s form of communication is similar to mass
missive (EPH 121), but no limit is placed on the number of
words that can be broadcast. The effect can be narrowed
to a single village or linked to broadcast across an entire
sphere, but it cannot pinpoint individuals . The Voice
addresses the populace throughout the day, providing
news, encouragement , and instruction to the people.

This system is controlled and monitored from Dal Quor.
Those who want to do so can cut off a village from the
Soothing Voice by deactivating a nearby monolith, but
they cannot transmit messages of their own without going
to Dal Quor.
Of course, theres also the undefined way that Monoliths do something Plot for the quori.
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: glassgnawer September 01, 2011, 06:15:04 AM
Following on from a similar thread on Forgotten Realms (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=12699).

What things turn people off of Eberron? A few times I've seen someone react in shock to how different it is from most settings, but grow to love it once they started playing. I know a lot of aspects took a while to grow on me. Other things I've seen:
  • "Magic isn't rare and mystical enough."
  • "I hate steampunk."
  • "Changelings/kalashtar/shifters/warforged are dumb."
  • "The art is too anime." (WAT)
  • "Airships/magic trains remind me of Final Fantasy."
  • "It gives psionics a place."
  • "I prefer having good and evil as objective forces."
  • "There aren't enough powerful NPCs to scare PCs into line."
  • "Why the hell do halflings ride dinosaurs?!"
  • "The Planar Shepherd PrC was in an Eberron book."

Basically, Eberron and similiar dungeon punk (not steampunk - at least according to the smart guys and gals at TVTropes) works are deconstruction/subversion of the fantasy genre. Let's face it - society/culture never progressing above medieval level in thousands years, and using only high-end magic (instead of cheaper, more accesible and easier to manufacture low magic) is, frankly, pretty dumb - or at least requires some willing suspension of disbelief. Especially if there are no external factors hampering developement of technology - like, global conspiracies, or even asspullish "we have magic, technology don't work".

And, simply becouse of that, Eberron doesn't appeal to everyone - players new to RPG (and fantasy in general) DO expect wise and powerful wizards, benevolent and beautiful elves etc. - it's the most common fantasy portrayal nowadays, and most prelevant by far as well. People that are fantasy geeks since the age of six (cheers, folks) may be at times a bit sick of these stereotypes, copypasted since the times Tolkien became popular (with some tropes even older, like wizard archetype), but less experineced and cynical players, faced with mongolian horde-like elves are in for a nasty shock.

Same goes with "objective good/evil" - less experienced players expect fantasy to be purely escapistic, without good guys screwing you for the greater good, or bad guys being right sometimes (or not always batshit insane, at least). I do NOT say that high fantasy settings (like FR) are for kids and noobs - hell, i kinda like high fantasy, despite layers of dirt and cynism i have accumulated since childhood. I do say though that without deep knowledge of fantasy tropes you won't enjoy Eberron, that is subverting many fantasy stereotypes. While most people can swallow fantasy culture becouse of its relative familiarity, Eberron and such are just too alien for them.

Oh yeah, that, and the fact that kalashtar are dumb ;)
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: Prime32 September 01, 2011, 07:28:27 AM
First, +1 to glassgnawer for putting things into words better than I could.

The Inspired build insanely huge psychic monoliths all over the place, and no one knows what they do. Who's to say they aren't a fleet of ships equipped with "Mourning Cannons"? :p

You could argue that there's no evidence for that, but a big part of Eberron is that certain parts are deliberately left ambiguous so that you can use something suitable for your campaign. I recall one WotC thread on Cardinal Krozen where Keith Baker explained the guy's history but refused to state whether he was a good guy with extreme methods or a power-mad bully. He said he'd prefer having to figure it out each time he played an Eberron game. Likewise, the cause of the Mourning will never be explained.
I'm perfectly aware of the amiguity. And I loathe it. If I'm paying for a specific campaign setting, I expect specific details.
Even when the setting is based on the Cold War but with more factions, and thus a major theme is not knowing what's going on and who you can trust? The moral relativism, the shapeshifters and possession, the lack of gods, all of them are to reinforce this theme.

And hell, how is that different from the Touhou fandom where canon information contradicts itself, people write stories about one-shot characters with no names, no dialog, and blurry low-resolution sprites, and personalities and backstories vary wildly between works? Sakuya is a serial killer or a vampire hunter or an alien or the daughter of a magician or...

Yet the inspectors were initially unphased by the fact that the heroes beat the balmarian force. As their enemies, the Inspectors would surely know the power of the white star. They even take control of it.

If they really believed the balmarians had thrown their best and still lost, then the Inspectors would've simply glassed the Earth and called it a day. They take Earth's heroes lightly and try to simply contain them because they beat "just" the septuagim.
Again, this is because they're idiots. They spend half the time arguing over petty things instead of doing their job, and probably expected Earth to surrender pretty quickly after they saw how awesome they were.
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: Unbeliever September 01, 2011, 12:10:32 PM
Just to be clear, or to make a point that is totally irrelevant, I would consider Dungeon Punk at most a sub-genre of Steampunk.  That is, it's Steampunk w/ magic elements, or magic fueling the steam.  I think someone would look at you strange if you said "Full Metal Alchemist" wasn't Steampunk, or hell, "Castle Falkenstein" -- the iconic Steampunk game -- has a lot of magical elements.  Dungeon Punk is also really really specific, which also indicates that it's really a division or variation on something else.  

NB:  that I don't mind the Punk aesthetic in any of its flavors.  If I were to criticize Eberron, though, it'd be the execution of them, namely that I don't think they went far enough w/ it.  I would have preferred something 30% further along the Steam/Dungeon Punk continuum.

EDIT:  Eberron also doesn't have the Cyberpunk style dystopianism to it.  If anything, it evokes post-World War I Europe.  Although the tropers seem to have gotten confused by the varying usages of the term "punk" since Steampunk is not typically dystopian at all, or at least it's not a defining feature of the (sub- sub-) genre.
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: Kajhera September 01, 2011, 02:12:38 PM
Steampunk used to be dystopian, but has, like cyberpunk, become adopted in many cases for its interesting aspects and aesthetics in many cases separately from that origin.

I read the introduction to the collection of steampunk short stories I'm reading.  :D

Edit: Also, some of the precursors of Steampunk weren't dystopian in the least, and demonstrated an impressive amount of ignorance, nationalism, optimism, imperialism, and brilliant young inventors who took over strange new lands with their steam-robot servants. Also involved much relatively clean violence. Steampunk was ... kind of a reaction to that possibly, albeit after it died out, but I didn't bring the book so I don't actually remember.
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: glassgnawer September 01, 2011, 06:27:09 PM
Just to be clear, or to make a point that is totally irrelevant, I would consider Dungeon Punk at most a sub-genre of Steampunk.  That is, it's Steampunk w/ magic elements, or magic fueling the steam.  I think someone would look at you strange if you said "Full Metal Alchemist" wasn't Steampunk, or hell, "Castle Falkenstein" -- the iconic Steampunk game -- has a lot of magical elements.  Dungeon Punk is also really really specific, which also indicates that it's really a division or variation on something else.  

NB:  that I don't mind the Punk aesthetic in any of its flavors.  If I were to criticize Eberron, though, it'd be the execution of them, namely that I don't think they went far enough w/ it.  I would have preferred something 30% further along the Steam/Dungeon Punk continuum.

EDIT:  Eberron also doesn't have the Cyberpunk style dystopianism to it.  If anything, it evokes post-World War I Europe.  Although the tropers seem to have gotten confused by the varying usages of the term "punk" since Steampunk is not typically dystopian at all, or at least it's not a defining feature of the (sub- sub-) genre.

Hmm, can't quite agree here. Dungeon punk is where 'technology' is achieved purely through magical means - that is, say, a ship powered by a bound elemental. Steampunk pretends it follows laws of physics - like Warmachine jacks being powered by steam (usually at least) and only controlled by magical gizmos. Also, FMA had more dieselpunk aestethics with its quasi WWI technology and style. But that was just me being anal ;)

I agree that Eberron would be more fun with more faux-technology in it (regardless of nomenclature) - but i always felt that authors haven't exactly known how far they can go with the whateverpunkish flavour without upsetting the fanbase - compared to the later books Eberron CS was rather tame with its machinery - it seemed more like a background then a feature. In that regard i prefer already mentioned Warmachine, though frankly Eberron was better written (imo at least - Keith Baker ftw).  

And yay, my first +1 here ;)
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: Sinfire Titan September 01, 2011, 07:42:08 PM
And hell, how is that different from the Touhou fandom where canon information contradicts itself, people write stories about one-shot characters with no names, no dialog, and blurry low-resolution sprites, and personalities and backstories vary wildly between works? Sakuya is a serial killer or a vampire hunter or an alien or the daughter of a magician or...


You and I both know the answer to that question: We're batshit crazy.
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: SorO_Lost September 02, 2011, 06:10:18 AM
I just wanted to chime in and say the reason I dislike it is the steampunk element.

It's not powerful to me, it's not me making another joke about psionics, I'm fine with ripping Eberron stuff out and reflavoring it. It's just steampunk, I don't get it and really don't care to. The entire steampunk setting is based on wtf stupidity to me and makes less sense than gravity or love. Eberron has applied the concept of magic to everything, magic powered air ships, magically generated electricity for trains, magically programmed cyborgs, magic this and magic that then ignore all of the ramifications. You can magically program highly advanced robots but you can't code a bug to open their CD tray? You can pick up and hurl several thousand tons of machine for public transport but where are the rail guns (or at least warforged shooting guns). Let's load up on the concept everyone has low level magic, then claim the 13th moon is invisible like no one has cast See Invisible. Hell, they have the ability to ignore gravity and you would think they know if there is a 13th moon or not by visiting the damn thing. But you can't! Steampunk isn't cyberpunk, the moment you start applying the knowledge presented you break the concept and drift into another fictional theme. The entire 4th wall is based on everyone being too retarded to use the stuff they made.

Sadly, this concept of ignorance applies else where as Eberron's theme is steampunk. You also have Din, Faore and Nayru, eer. Eberron, Khyber and Sibery whom created the world, but even double checking wikipedia sure enough one one of them is worshiped. Um... If most of the religions admit to three of them, why are the other two just plain ignored in favor of a bunch of lowlife quasi-deities? And did you ever stop to think about the Quori? They are effectively the BBEG race and they are focused on stopping the world, metaphorically freezing it so nothing can change. Thats right, your BBEG is literally Steampunk's line of discrimination made real. Got a creative thought? Some Quori dude appears and says stop that shit. Only instead of encouraging thousands of rebellious teenagers to do it behind their backs everyone grows up with the idea to just kill them. Them, the dream givers born from the psionic-elemental-plane-thing of dreams, because killing your dreams is the best way to avoid stagnation.

It all just comes off as a poor joke for a world and where asking what if you use this in a different manner prompts a mob armed with torches into chasing you. I'm sure there is people here that swear steampunk is awesome but just refuse to play cyber games, or hate anima for the drawing style and a couple of well known protagonists yelling a lot, or what ever. I'm just the inverse and the simplest way to fix Eberron's gaping concept hole isn't a hand wave while saying it's magic, it's simply not reading the flavor entires or world building. Like FF9's mistpunk problems are really the result of left over science from an advanced alien race trying to keep the world at war to harvest the planet or Bioshock's boiled water has allegiances and big daddy confusion are really Soldier G65434-2's nightmare as a result of being in the warp time/space drive while it's software, Shodan, was getting hit with rockets.
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: Prime32 September 02, 2011, 09:15:25 AM
It's not powerful to me, it's not me making another joke about psionics, I'm fine with ripping Eberron stuff out and reflavoring it. It's just steampunk, I don't get it and really don't care to. The entire steampunk setting is based on wtf stupidity to me and makes less sense than gravity or love. Eberron has applied the concept of magic to everything, magic powered air ships, magically generated electricity for trains, magically programmed cyborgs, magic this and magic that then ignore all of the ramifications. You can magically program highly advanced robots but you can't code a bug to open their CD tray? You can pick up and hurl several thousand tons of machine for public transport but where are the rail guns (or at least warforged shooting guns). Let's load up on the concept everyone has low level magic, then claim the 13th moon is invisible like no one has cast See Invisible. Hell, they have the ability to ignore gravity and you would think they know if there is a 13th moon or not by visiting the damn thing. But you can't! Steampunk isn't cyberpunk, the moment you start applying the knowledge presented you break the concept and drift into another fictional theme. The entire 4th wall is based on everyone being too retarded to use the stuff they made.
IIRC, flying too high in Eberron causes you to travel to another plane. And there are forms of invisibility which can't be pierced by lv2 spells.

Warforged can't be magically programmed - they have to train them the old-fashioned way. As for railguns, it's possible they just haven't thought of them. The best design I could come up with for one involved walls of force, a ton of conductor stones, a custom magic trap, an antimagic field and magically generated winds, which would probably be too expensive to be practical. Easier just to use +1 catapults or launch bolt spells.

Sadly, this concept of ignorance applies else where as Eberron's theme is steampunk. You also have Din, Faore and Nayru, eer. Eberron, Khyber and Sibery whom created the world, but even double checking wikipedia sure enough one one of them is worshiped. Um... If most of the religions admit to three of them, why are the other two just plain ignored in favor of a bunch of lowlife quasi-deities?
In polytheistic religions, worshipping creator deities is rare since they don't do anything any more. Khyber is doing something, in trying to escape and kill everyone, hence he's more attractive as a patron.

And did you ever stop to think about the Quori? They are effectively the BBEG race and they are focused on stopping the world, metaphorically freezing it so nothing can change. Thats right, your BBEG is literally Steampunk's line of discrimination made real. Got a creative thought? Some Quori dude appears and says stop that shit. Only instead of encouraging thousands of rebellious teenagers to do it behind their backs everyone grows up with the idea to just kill them. Them, the dream givers born from the psionic-elemental-plane-thing of dreams, because killing your dreams is the best way to avoid stagnation.
I don't understand what you're saying. ???
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: oslecamo September 02, 2011, 09:47:05 AM
Even when the setting is based on the Cold War but with more factions, and thus a major theme is not knowing what's going on and who you can trust? The moral relativism, the shapeshifters and possession, the lack of gods, all of them are to reinforce this theme.
Cold War demans the threat of mutual anihilation. Considering that nobody has any claims  of weapons of mass destruction, and you don't even have high level characters, it's really just your average post-war medieval situation with each nation rebuilding their forces because they just got out of an all-out war, which you just can't maintain forever. They'll all go back to butchering each other again when they catch their breath again.

And hell, how is that different from the Touhou fandom where canon information contradicts itself, people write stories about one-shot characters with no names, no dialog, and blurry low-resolution sprites, and personalities and backstories vary wildly between works? Sakuya is a serial killer or a vampire hunter or an alien or the daughter of a magician or...
1-At least Zun gives hints of what is happening. Sakuya is an alien/serial killer/vampire hunter (they're not really mutually exclusive BTW :smirk) because Zun on his holy drunkness hands out big hints in little words.

Eberron on the other hand goes "Yeah, there was this big explosion, and it was really big and explodey, and did I mention how big and explodey it was, and that's it, I'm too lazy to even give hints on why it happened. Thanks for your money suckers!"

2-It has catchy music and challenging gameplay where even no-name enemies and minor bosses will make you sweat and enjoy it.

3-It's called character development. Reimu goes from innocent shrine maiden of paradise to fantasy gangster because she grows bolder with each game as she stomps over the gods themselves.
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: SorO_Lost September 02, 2011, 04:08:25 PM
IIRC, flying too high in Eberron causes you to travel to another plane. And there are forms of invisibility which can't be pierced by lv2 spells.
lol.

Flying to the moon takes you to another plane eh? 13-1 planes, 13-1 moons, any questions? Certainly explains why the Quori are trying to move their plane closer...

As for railguns, it's possible they just haven't thought of them. The best design I could come up with was really complicated and just shooting stuff with magic was better.
But that is just the point now isn't it? Binding a couple elementals for antigravity flying sheets of metal called a "trailer" that is lead though the air by a small seat called "a truck" is a heck of a lot easier and more mobile than magically charged bullet trains or sailing ships with flight. Nothing that was invented was invented out of necessity and nothing that has been invented is applied in such a way to work better than it is now. It's steampunk's mainstay.


I don't understand what you're saying. ???
The Quori race are from Dal Quor, the plane of dreams, and yes they enter your dreams and have been doing so since you were born. Their goal is "establishing a static world, in which nothing ever changes and there is no light to threaten the darkness." (keith baker). Currently some are pretending to be allies (inspired), others are just out to kill you (dreaming dark), but they all are on the same team and all share the same goal of preventing anything from changing and the factions are just there as an excuse to be aggressive (like if the CIA were to get caught).

Keith is aware of how horrible steampunk is and decided to rationalize why things are so screwed up by creating an entire plane's worth of beings whose only goal in life is to prevent the world from changing. But he didn't do it with just anyone. He could have used some Amish parody or some ice elementals wanting to literally freeze the world but instead he does it in a way to create pun about you killing your dreams. Oh and then apparently squeezed in space travel by shoving the word plane shift in there. Kudos to Keith for trying to validate the world but it isn't going to change my views on steampunk.
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: Prime32 September 02, 2011, 04:49:06 PM
IIRC, flying too high in Eberron causes you to travel to another plane. And there are forms of invisibility which can't be pierced by lv2 spells.
lol.

Flying to the moon takes you to another plane eh? 13-1 planes, 13-1 moons, any questions? Certainly explains why the Quori are trying to move their plane closer...
Actually, there's a sky-elemental plane...

As for railguns, it's possible they just haven't thought of them. The best design I could come up with was really complicated and just shooting stuff with magic was better.
But that is just the point now isn't it? Binding a couple elementals for antigravity flying sheets of metal called a "trailer" that is lead though the air by a small seat called "a truck" is a heck of a lot easier and more mobile than magically charged bullet trains or sailing ships with flight. Nothing that was invented was invented out of necessity and nothing that has been invented is applied in such a way to work better than it is now. It's steampunk's mainstay.
There is no form of elemental binding which grants "antigravity" without propulsion. And besides, elemental vessels need someone to keep the elemental from going out of control, so an object with multiple elementals bound into it would require an extremely skilled driver. Also, airships need large quantities of soarwood in their construction to achieve flight.

Lightning rails are an extremely fast and efficient method of travel, and smaller versions tend to fly off the tracks.

As for "sailing ships with flight", early cars looked like horse-drawn carriages minus the horse. It's partly the designers having preset ideas on what an airship should look like, and partly a safety feature in case the airship malfunctions over water.

I don't understand what you're saying. ???
The Quori race are from Dal Quor, the plane of dreams, and yes they enter your dreams and have been doing so since you were born. Their goal is "establishing a static world, in which nothing ever changes and there is no light to threaten the darkness." (keith baker). Currently some are pretending to be allies (inspired), others are just out to kill you (dreaming dark), but they all are on the same team and all share the same goal of preventing anything from changing and the factions are just there as an excuse to be aggressive (like if the CIA were to get caught).

Keith is aware of how horrible steampunk is and decided to rationalize why things are so screwed up by creating an entire plane's worth of beings whose only goal in life is to prevent the world from changing. But he didn't do it with just anyone. He could have used some Amish parody or some ice elementals wanting to literally freeze the world but instead he does it in a way to create pun about you killing your dreams. Oh and then apparently squeezed in space travel by shoving the word plane shift in there. Kudos to Keith for trying to validate the world but it isn't going to change my views on steampunk.
Part of this is to prevent rebellion, but another part is that il'Lashtavar is basically "the spirit of the era" and if the world entered a new era (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Aquarius) he would reboot and take the quori with him.
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: Midnight_v September 02, 2011, 04:54:19 PM
but instead he does it in a way to create pun about you killing your dreams.
I haven't studied eberron at that level, but it certainly sounds interesting, is there a link to what SorO_lost is saying?
Is there a "secrets of" book that covers all this?

What else... so... at root most of the dislike of Eberron is based on not liking its "Steampunk~esqe" elements?
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: veekie September 02, 2011, 05:44:39 PM
^^
Pretty much. Its fairly fine as far as the actual gameplay element goes. Its a stylistic dislike, more than what you can or cannot do in the game(though again, if you're intent on rocking a late teens level PC you'd be treading largely unexplored grounds)
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: SorO_Lost September 05, 2011, 06:31:00 AM
but instead he does it in a way to create pun about you killing your dreams.
I haven't studied eberron at that level, but it certainly sounds interesting, is there a link to what SorO_lost is saying?
Is there a "secrets of" book that covers all this?
You can snag some of the information from Wikipedia it's self, it's where I got their goal from as ECS kinda just says their evil evil evil. Anyway, you can crack open your ECS book and find things like.
1. The Quori entry flat out states they are living embodiments of dream and nightmare.
2. Planar description for Dal notes: "When mortals dream, they psychically project their minds to Dal Quor, the plane where dreams play out.".
3. Beyond Khorvaire talks about the Inspired controlled nation of Riedra. Under Organizations you can read about Dreaming Dark agents are ranked higher than the Riedra agents too.

I have no clue where the fly to other planes stuff is at, you'll have to ask Prime about that. I can say the following is within the Planar description: "In the process, Dal Quor itself was thrown off its orbit.". That's no moon... ;)

What else... so... at root most of the dislike of Eberron is based on not liking its "Steampunk~esqe" elements?
Yeah it is style dislike on my end entirely. Steampunk is iffy'er than hell. It sports technology superior to our current stuff and very much on par with scifi stuff hundreds of years in the future despite being focused on a 1970s version of technology. For instance computers, if any exist, must use those old transistor things, even though microchip processors were invented in the mid 60s, and yet Steampunk can have robots and drones far more advanced than we can code now.

A major rule of Steampunk is Thou shalt show external gears and boiled water like porn. Trains, airships, robo limbs, even your gun must be enhanced by steam and moving gears or you failed. People in tux/dresses or anything with leather and brass and it must present a certain look with no regard to functionality. You wear leather caps for helmets, lead aprons with leather gloves and boots over copper decorated clothing while using metal tools to with capacitors because energy arcs are not only harmless but are a proven source of making you a bad ass. Plates protecting intricate clockwork designs are a hells no like a bra at a nudest beach. Some of the biggest WTFs stem from this. Recall how people went nuts over Twilight's undead are cold rather than room temperature or vampires have 26 chromosome and humans don't so how the hell can they mate and other stuff? Yeah, Steampunk is full of little inconsistencies like that and fans overlook them as if they don't exist.

Ever notice how the central plot is always about the role of technology within society? Like Bioshock's a man chooses vs commies, Boneshaker/Wild Wild West/The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen is copyright infringement makes you an evil overlord, Eberron has Quori whom hate magic-based-steampunk to a point they banned it from Riedra and seek to create a stagnate world free from it. Hellboy 2 mixed things up I guess, it was an elf wanting to control robots for revenge but Steampunk is mixed in there and not the central theme.
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: veekie September 05, 2011, 07:51:32 AM
Yeah, I think we can agree to disagree on the stylistic elements. The Quori mind, are as much embodiments of dreams and nightmares as fiends are embodiments of all the evils of the world. They're made of the stuff but then you're made of meat.
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: borsniel September 10, 2011, 11:58:37 PM
just chipping in here, as a DM i much prefer the fact eberrons lack of details about the great mystery of the world, i find it allows me to run many different adventures with different flavor. one time the great explosion was the result of arcane experimentation and the pcs had top stop it. another time it was the cause of an intersecting plane. just gives me a ton of room to move and unlike when i run FR games i dont have PCs going "but thats not the way that works"
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: PhaedrusXY September 11, 2011, 12:48:05 AM
and unlike when i run FR games i dont have PCs going "but thats not the way that works"
This. 1 word sums it up: midichlorians.
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: Sinfire Titan September 11, 2011, 12:51:15 AM
This. 1 word sums it up: midichlorians.

What are those?

FUCKING YEARS OF RAGE THERAPY WASTED BECAUSE OF GEORGE LUCAS!
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: PhaedrusXY September 11, 2011, 12:58:52 AM
This. 1 word sums it up: midichlorians.

What are those?

FUCKING YEARS OF RAGE THERAPY WASTED BECAUSE OF GEORGE LUCAS!
:lol
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: borsniel September 11, 2011, 01:31:31 AM
nice one  :D
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: Amechra September 11, 2011, 01:46:51 AM
I have to say, when I think of Steampunk, I think of it in terms of the old White Wolf Mage: the Ascension, wherein science works because everyone thinks it does.

Steampunk goes: "If it looks like this, it works", and everyone in that world goes along with it, so...

It works.
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: Libertad October 16, 2011, 08:01:38 PM
I overall like Eberron's unorthodox nature, but there's some parts I don't like.

Eberron is played up as a pulp/noir setting.  It's got quite a bit of the pulp covered, but noir elements don't seem to fit in as well especially in higher-level games.

The characters of noir fiction are ruthless gangsters, jaded detectives, and crooked cops.  You can run an adventure around PCs tracking down a depraved serial killer in the grimy alleys of the city of Sharn, but noir tropes don't fit as well into D&D as pulp does.  In Pulp, the characters are larger-than-life adventurers, two-fisted explorers, and other "adventuring" archetypes.

By mid-high level the PCs get cool stuff, can afford to live in nice areas of town, and display superhuman levels of skill.  A mad scientist Artificer and his Warforged companion are assaulting a crazed baron's airship fortress which laying siege to a city: this idea fits perfectly with Pulp and D&D.  A noir game feels more "small-time," limited, and seems inappropriate for higher-level games.  It's hard to see a powerful wizard ex-cop as a "down-on-his-luck detective trying to get by."
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: Agita October 16, 2011, 08:25:56 PM
I overall like Eberron's unorthodox nature, but there's some parts I don't like.

Eberron is played up as a pulp/noir setting.  It's got quite a bit of the pulp covered, but noir elements don't seem to fit in as well especially in higher-level games.

The characters of noir fiction are ruthless gangsters, jaded detectives, and crooked cops.  You can run an adventure around PCs tracking down a depraved serial killer in the grimy alleys of the city of Sharn, but noir tropes don't fit as well into D&D as pulp does.  In Pulp, the characters are larger-than-life adventurers, two-fisted explorers, and other "adventuring" archetypes.

By mid-high level the PCs get cool stuff, can afford to live in nice areas of town, and display superhuman levels of skill.  A mad scientist Artificer and his Warforged companion are assaulting a crazed baron's airship fortress which laying siege to a city: this idea fits perfectly with Pulp and D&D.  A noir game feels more "small-time," limited, and seems inappropriate for higher-level games.  It's hard to see a powerful wizard ex-cop as a "down-on-his-luck detective trying to get by."
That's more a function of the system than of the setting. D&D is simply unsuited to gritty, low-power play even at relatively low-ish (5-6) levels.
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: oslecamo October 16, 2011, 08:44:18 PM
Because there aren't 4 whole levels before that? And they aren't any faster to level up than the others.
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: Agita October 16, 2011, 08:56:03 PM
Four whole levels also known as all of one fifth of 20 levels. Woo hoo.
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: Libertad October 16, 2011, 09:30:42 PM
That's more a function of the system than of the setting. D&D is simply unsuited to gritty, low-power play even at relatively low-ish (5-6) levels.

That's why I don't think the noir aspect should be considered a major focus of the setting.  Fluffwise, the setting feels more suited to pulp with all the unexplored continents, secret cabals of demons plotting to rule the world, and the fantastic techno-magic locations of sublime power.
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: oslecamo October 16, 2011, 09:37:09 PM
U mad that I pointed out the option is there? If all of D&D was gritty based, then you would be whining that D&D can't make high fantasy(5-8), super-heroes(9-12), high-powered (13-16) and godlike (17-20) wasn't there. PCs becoming more powerful and significant as they level up, what heresy were the designers thinking?
: Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
: Agita October 16, 2011, 10:50:57 PM
U mad that I pointed out the option is there?
No, I mad that you're completely missing the point. The point is that Eberron claims one of its themes to be "noir", which just isn't possible in any kind of extended D&D campaign. Levels 1-4 are over in a jiffy, either because you die to an unlucky crit or because you level to 5 (it doesn't take very long, especially with Eberron's predilection towards cinematic combat meaning you'll have fewer and more challenging fights on average, and so have somewhat fewer than the assumed 13.3 repeating encounters a level). Now if you'd be so kind, stop derailing.

That's more a function of the system than of the setting. D&D is simply unsuited to gritty, low-power play even at relatively low-ish (5-6) levels.

That's why I don't think the noir aspect should be considered a major focus of the setting.  Fluffwise, the setting feels more suited to pulp with all the unexplored continents, secret cabals of demons plotting to rule the world, and the fantastic techno-magic locations of sublime power.
Agreed, yes. It can be done if you play with other systems (such as DFRPG) and just use the setting, but that's sort of outside the scope of the thread.