Brilliant Gameologists Forum
The Thinktank => Min/Max It! => Handbooks => : Iskajir August 02, 2011, 03:22:04 PM
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As an artificer, you get spells/gp, rather than spells/day. Here are a few ways to stretch your gp and craft reserve. The most obvious way to get a spell at the least cost is by choosing the lowest class level available, which often lowers the minimum caster level of your scroll or wand. This also adds more possibilities for wands, and eternal wands.
Further down, you will find spells that are much improved by using the fast spell progression of Ur-Priest, Divine Crusader, and Beholder Mage. If you need a scroll fairly early in your career, or if CL doesn't matter much, it may be worthwhile to compare costs. Ur-Priest uses the Cleric list. Beholder Mage uses the Sor/Wiz list. Divine Crusader uses domain lists. I am going to, slowly, consolidate a list of high level scrolls useful to 5-7th level casters. Excluded are spells with costly material components, focuses, or large XP expenditures; spells that are very CL dependent; spells that still aren't worthwhile. Be aware that these are not balanced at all in lower-optimization games.
Finally, there is a section of links to sources to further stretch your budget in very high optimization games, and for TO exercises.
~I still consider this Work-In-Progress, and would like to know if I missed anything, misspelled anything, or need to adjust formatting for easy use, let me know.
Books Explored- I won't promise that I didn't miss something good.
[spoiler]
PHB, DMG, UA, PHB2, DMG2
Complete Adventurer/ Arcane/Divine/Warrior/Champion/Scoundrel
Races of Stone/the Wild/Destiny/the Dragon
Frostburn/Stormwrack/Sandstorm/ Cityscape/ Dungeonscape/ Drow otU/ OA
BoED/BoVD, Savage Species, Mini's HB,
Elder Evils, Manual of Planes, Planar HB, Tome of Magic, FC1, FC2, Tome of Battle, Draconomicon, Magic of Incarnum, XPH, Dragon Magic, Drag Mag Comp,
Heroes of Battle/Horror
Lords of Madness, Libris Mortis
Eberron: CS, Faiths, Magic, Sharn, 5 Nations, explorers
FR:CS, UE, Magic, Monsters, Faiths, Waterdeep, PG, Power, Dragons, Races, S. South, Spider Queen, Lords of Darkness, champs of Valor/Ruin, Silver Marches,
DL: CS, Towers of High Sorcery, War of the Lance
[/spoiler]
Level 0 Spell[spoiler]
Deathwatch (Healer, MH)
Silent Image (Gnome Ill, RoS)
Ventriloquism (Gnome Ill, RoS)
[/spoiler]
Level 1 Spells[spoiler]
Animal Messenger (Rgr)
Arcane Lock (Thayan Slaver, FR-UE)
Arcane Sight (Trapsmith, DS)
Barkskin (Nentyar Hunter, FR-UE)
Bear's Endurance (Sand Shaper, SaSt)
Blindness/Deafness (Telflammar Shadowlord, FR-UE)
Bull's Strength (Sand Shaper, SaSt)
Calm emotions (Consecrated Harrier, CD)
Cat's Grace (Sand Shaper, SaSt/ Trapsmith, DS)
Clairvoyance/Clairaudience (Trapsmith, DS)
Cure Light Wounds (Clr)
Cure Moderate Wounds (Runescarred Beserker, FR-UE)
Darkness (Telflammar Shadowlord, FR-UE)
Darkvision (Darkness Domain, BoVD)
Delay Poison (rgr)
Detect Thoughts (Truth Domain, RoE)
Dispel Magic (Trapsmith, DS)
Fox's Cunning (Trapsmith, DS)
Frostburn, Lesser (Disciple of Thrym, FB)
Gaseous Form (Trapsmith, DS)
Haste (Trapsmith, DS)
Identify (Cloi Clr, UA)
Invisibility (Telflammar Shadowlord, FR-UE)
Knock (Trapsmith, DS / Telflammar Shadowlord, FR-UE)
Lay of the Land, SpC (Rgr)
Levitate (Telflammar Shadowlord, FR-UE)
Leomund's Trap (Gnome Ill, RoS)
Magic Mouth (Brd)
Magic Vestment (Artificer, ECS)
Make Whole (Balance Domain, SpC)
Minor Image(Gnome Ill, RoS)
Obscure Object (Brd)
Produce Flame (Drd)
Protection From Energy (Trapsmith, DS)
Remove Paralysis (Healer, MH)
Resist Energy (Rgr)
Restoration, Lesser (paladin)
See Invisibility (Runescarred Beserker, FR-UE)
Silence (Court Herald, FR-PoF)
Shadow Mask -SpC (Telflammar Shadowlord, FR-UE)
Shadow Spray- SpC (Telflammar Shadowlord, FR-UE)
Speak with Animals (drd)
Spider Climb (Prime Underdark guide, FR-UD/ Spider Domain DotU/Slayer of Domiel, BoED)
Tasha's Hideous Laughter (brd)
Undetectable Alignment (Brd)
[/spoiler]
Level 2 Spells[spoiler]
Air Walk (Telflammar Shadowlord, FR-UE)
Animate Dead (Death Master, Dragon Magazine Compendium)
Arcane Eye (Trapsmith, DS)
Bestow Curse (Demonologist, BoVD)
Blacklight- SpC (Telflammar Shadowlord, FR-UE)
Continual Flame (S/W)
Cure Serious Wounds (Runescarred Beserker, FR-UE)
Daylight (Consecrated Harrier, CD)
Dimension Door (Trapsmith, DS)
Displacement (Telflammar Shadowlord, FR-UE)
Fire Trap (Drd)
Gentle Repose (Clr)
Globe of Invulnerability, Lesser (Trapsmith, DS)
Heroism (Brd)
Hold Person (Clr)
Illusory Script (Gnome Ill, RoS/ Assassin)
Improved Invisibility (Telflammar Shadowlord, FR-UE)
Keen Edge (Runescarred Beserker, FR-UE)
Locate Object (S/W)
Magic Circle vs Evil (Demonologist, BoVD/Exorcism Domain ECS)
Magic Circle vs Good (Demonologist, BoVD)
Major Image (Gnome Ill, RoS)
Nondetection (Telflammar Shadowlord, FR-UE)
Otiluke's Resilient Sphere (Trapsmith, DS)
Rage (Brd)
Reduce Animal (Drd)
Remove Blindness/Deafness (Healer, MH)
Remove Disease (Healer, MH)
See Invisibility (S/W)
Snare (rgr)
Speak with Plants (Rgr)
Spike Growth (Rgr)
Stone Shape (Trapsmith, DS)
Stoneskin (Trapsmith, DS)
Suggestion (Brd)
Tongues (Brd)
Tree Shape (Drd)
Vampiric Touch (Corrupt Avenger, HoH / Telflammar Shadowlord, FR-UE)
Wind Wall (Air Domain)
[/spoiler]
Level 3 Spells[spoiler]
Bigby's Interposing Hand (Trapsmith, DS)
Break Enchantment (Trapsmith, DS)
Charm Monster (Brd)
Command, Greater (Thayan Slaver, FR-UE)
Command Plants (Rgr)
Confusion (Brd)
Contagion (Clr)
Control water (Watery Death domain, FR-UD)
Crushing despair (Brd)
Cure Critical Wounds (Runescarred Beserker, FR-UE)
Darkbolt- SpC (Telflammar Shadowlord, FR-UE)
Deathward (Dread Necromancer, HoH)
Detect Scrying (Telflammar Shadowlord, FR-UE)
Discern Lies (Pal)
Dispel Magic, Greater (Trapsmith, DS)
Divination (Oracle Domain, SpC)
Divine Power (Runescarred Beserker, FR-UE)
Dominate Person (Thayan Slaver, FR-UE)
Evard's black Tentacles (Blackwater Domain, StWr)
Fabricate (Trapsmith, DS)
Fear (brd)
Fire Shield (Warmage, Comp Arc)
Freedom of Movement (Nentyar Hunter, FR-UE/Runescarred Beserker, FR-UE)
Geas, Lesser (brd)
Glibness (Brd/ Initiate of Vecna, RoD)
Hold Monster (Thayan Slaver, FR-UE)
Ice Storm (Warmage, Comp Arc)
Illusory Wall (Gnome Ill, RoS)
Invisibility, Mass (Telflammar Shadowlord, FR-UE)
Magic Weapon, Greater (S/W)
Mislead (Telflammar Shadowlord, FR-UE)
Neutralize Poison (Drd)
Planar Binding, Lesser (Demonologist, BoVD)
Poison (Drd)
Remove Curse (Clr)
Repel Vermin (Rgr)
Restoration (Healer, MH)
Scrying (Brd)
Shout (Knight of the Chalice, CW)
Wall of Stone (Trapsmith, DS)
[/spoiler]
Level 4 Spells[spoiler]
Analyze Dweomer (Bardic Sage, UA)
Animal Growth (Rgr)
Atonement (Emissary of Barachiel, BoED)
Baleful Polymorph (Hexblade, CW)
Bestow Curse, Greater (Demonologist, BoVD)
Blight (Drd)
Commune with Nature (Rgr)
Contact Other Plane (Hexblade, CW)
Cure Light Wounds, Mass (Healer, MH)
Dismissal (Clr)
Dispel Chaos/Evil/Law/Good (Pal and UA variants)
Dream (Emissary of Barachiel, BoED)
Flame Strike (Drd)
Insect Plague (Savage Bard, UA)
Legend Lore (brd)
Mark of Justice (Pal)
Mind Fog (Thayan Slaver, FR-UE)
Persistent Image (Gnome Ill, RoS)
Planar Binding (Demonologist, BoVD)
Righteous Might (Runescarred Beserker, FR-UE)
Sending (Clr)
Sequester (Thayan Slaver, FR-UE)
Summon Giants (Disciple of Thrym, FB)
Transmute Mud to Rock/Rock to Mud (Blighter, CD)
Tree Stride (rgr)
True Seeing (Urban Ranger, UA)
Unhallow (Blighter, CD)
Veil (Thayan Slaver, FR-UE)
Wall of Fire (s/W)
[/spoiler]
Level 5 Spells[spoiler]
Antimagic Field (Runescarred Beserker, FR-UE)
Antilife Shell (Blighter, CD)
Bigby's Clenched Fist (Duskblade, PHB2)
Chain Lightning (Duskblade, PHB2)
Create Undead (Blighter, CD)
Cure Moderate Wounds, Mass (Healer, MH)
Disintergrate (Duskblade, PHB2)
Forbiddance (Blighter, CD)
Harm (Blighter CD)
Heal (Adept)
Heroism, Greater (Brd)
Plane Shift (Clr)
Polar Ray (Duskblade, PHB2)
Programmed Image (Gnome Ill, RoS)
Scrying, Greater (Bardic Sage, UA)
Shadow Walk (Brd)
Stone to Flesh (Healer, MH)
Suggestion, Mass (Brd)
Undeath to Death (Dread Necromancer, HoH)
Wall of Iron (Shugenja, CD)
[/spoiler]
Level 6 Spells[spoiler]
Antipathy (Blighter, CD)
Banishment (Clr)
Charm Monster, Mass (brd)
Control Weather (WuJen, Comp Arc)
Creeping Doom (Savage Bard, UA)
Cure Serious Wounds, Mass (Healer, MH)
Finger of Death (Blighter, CD)
Otto's Irristible Dance (Brd)
Project Image (Brd)
Regenerate (Healer, MH)
Repulsion (S/W)
Restoration, Greater (Healer, MH)
Shout, Greater (Brd)
Sunbeam (Summer Domain, SaSt)
Vision (Bardic Sage, UA)
Waves of Exhaustion (Dread Necromancer, HoH)
Wind Walk (Clr)
Word of Recall (Clr)
[/spoiler]
Level 7 Spells[spoiler]
Animal Shapes (Animal Domain)
Cure Critical Wounds, Mass (Healer, MH)
Earthquake (Earth Domain)
Fire Storm (Drd)
Phase Door (S/W)
Refuge (Clr)
Reverse Gravity (S/W)
Screen (Trickery Domain)
[/spoiler]
Level 8 Spells[spoiler]
Heal, Mass (Healer, MH)
Shambler (Blighter, CD)
Symathy (S/W)
[/spoiler]
Beholder Mage List Bargains
[spoiler]
9th level Spells (available at 7th level)
Foresight, Bigby's Crushing Hand, Meteor Swarm, Shades, Weird, Wail of the Banshee, Time Stop, Magic Miasma, Summon Elemental Monolith (+100gp), Transmute Rock to Lava
8th level Spells (available at 6th level)
Mind Blank, Superior Invisibility
[/spoiler]
Ur-Priest/Divine Crusader List Bargains
[spoiler]
9th level Spells (available at 7th level)
8th level Spells (available at 6th level)
Veil of Undeath
4th level Spells (available at 2nd level)
Glibness (Commerce Domain)
[/spoiler]
Links for TO/Very High-Powered Games
[spoiler]
Minimizing Caster Level (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869590/Odd_optimization_project:_minimizing_caster_levels&post_num=6)
[/spoiler]
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Runescarred Berserker gets Cure Moderate Wounds at level 1... In general, delving the lists of prestige classes that add casting to noncasting classes can be REALLY REALLY valuable. Trapsmith from Dungeonscape (Dispel Magic at level 1)! The entire book Unapproachable East, with Teflammar Shadowlord, Runescarred Berserker, Thayan Slayer...
I'd be interested in who else knows some good prestige classes that have level 1 spells that are nice and notable!
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I only have Amazon Preview Book access to UE. It will be slow going, but I should be able to update tonight.
EDIT: Added Runescarred Beserker, Telflammar Shadowlord, and Thayan Slaver.
Those spoilers are getting to be walls of impenetrable text. Maybe I should highlight the ones that are 2 or 3 levels lower than Wiz/Drd/Clr??
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I think BoED has some stuff too. Have you added the stuff from the Archivist list? That Lowest Level Versions of Spells stuff? That would need tweaking, as it doesn't have the arcane list (Wiz/Sorc), but it should give you some ideas at least.
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I took apart BoED and BoVD pretty thoroughly, but could have missed something. I started at the half-dozen archivist/chameleon threads and found them to be unsatisfying or incomplete. This was started for personal edification, and for a PC in an upcoming game, but I figure I'm not the only person who might want the info handy.
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Have you looked at this?
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872558/Lowest_level_versions_of_spells
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TML- It was my dissatisfaction with that link, and a few like it, both for formatting and completeness that led to this neigh obsessive quest, actually.
The author there never added arcane spells for example. This isn't meant as a complete listing of all spells, only the bargains that might be of interest to artificers.
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So ARE there any bargains in Vigilante or Assassin?
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A very few from Assassin, as above. None from Vigilante.
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Wow, I had no idea this existed, but look at the prestige classes that add casting here:
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8664.0
There might be some bargains in that!
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Chameleon Crafting feat in Dr#349
lets you make Psi Items of Spell X
and Magic Items of Psi Powers.
You can at least have Scrolls of all psi powers.
There are small conversion issues.
Caster Levels are not Manifester Levels, and don't augment.
imho - Magic Items of Psi powers only have the lowest ML possible, no augs.
I have no idea if or how Magic Arty can get Psi Arty stuff or vice versa.
Technically Magic Mantle should allow a Cham.Crafting-type effect anyway.
Generally, I've said Magic Mantle + Psi Arty = Magic Arty too.
I wouldn't call any of these "bargains", just hopping the psi/magic divide.
Arch + Wiz + StP Erudite 7+ = everything !
StP Erudite benefits from this list, arcane only.
Discipline Erudite(s) benefit from this list, just with the one magic School picked, but arc + divine.
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Just wish to point out the Whether or not an artificer can or can't craft it it based on CL, not spell level. Spell level just affects price.
Consider that an Ur Priest can cast 9th level spells at CL 9.
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Ur-Priest just uses the cleric list, with min CL=spell level. It may be worthwhile to compare costs, but many of these would still be bargains:
Lesser Restoration- Clr 2*CL3, Pal 1*CL2, or Ur-P2*CL2.... Paladin list still wins on cost. An Ur-Priest scroll of True Resurrection would only be marginally cheaper due to component cost.
It is worth checking though if it is an option in your game.
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Divine Crusader (Complete Divine) gets domain spell access early with spell level = caster level. How'zbout making that teleport scroll at L3?
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Other utility I anticipate from my list:
Superior Wand Action- Who wouldn't want a wand of Summon Giants? Every encounter is ninja, hiding in trees, buffing with blur and mirror image? Add a wand of True Seeing?
Potions of newly-first level spells might become viable. Make other party members spend actions to get their buffs.
@Endarire- you could start the game with a scroll of dimension door that would make the totemist and his blink shirt weep.
I'm super sleepy, but if I find so much happiness in this list, I'm betting some other artificer player might as well.
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Ur-Priest just uses the cleric list, with min CL=spell level. It may be worthwhile to compare costs, but many of these would still be bargains:
Lesser Restoration- Clr 2*CL3, Pal 1*CL2, or Ur-P2*CL2.... Paladin list still wins on cost. An Ur-Priest scroll of True Resurrection would only be marginally cheaper due to component cost.
It is worth checking though if it is an option in your game.
Said trick is more for early access, and cheaper high level spells. 9*CL9 that can be made by a level 7 is pretty good for most 9th level spells.
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It is already on your list, but I have to repeat the 4th level spell summon giants is an awesome bang for your buck.
The wand has a market cost of 750*4*7=21000 or once you craft it with the artisan feats 7875 gp and 630xp for 50 charges. (157.5 gp per charge)
What you get for a single charge is
3 Fiendish Hill Giants whose cr is 7+2 each
2 Fiendish Stone Giants whose cr is 8+2 each
1 Fiendish Frost Giants whose cr is 9+2
1 Fiendish Fire Giants whose cr is 10+2
These summoned creatures last 7 rounds, but with Wand Mastery (9th level feat) they now last 9 rounds
And if you think they are not buffed enough a simple casting of 1st Level Haste thanks to the generosity of trapsmith makes those 3 Hill Giants double the amount of damage they do per round. (1*1*375*.75=281.25 GP and 22.5 XP for wand of Haste, which costs 5.625 GP per charge)
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Actually, it would be a tad more expensive than that. Summon Giants is Cleric 8, Winter Domain 8, Disciple of Thrym 4.
So, it's unwandable from the Ur-Priest or Divine Crusader (Winter) list. A scroll would be Level 8*CL 8.
A wand from the Disciple of Thrym list would be Level 4* CL 7. Still a complete encounter ender at 5th level on a scroll, or at 7th level, as Arty's First Wand. It's unlikely that a mid-level encounter should go past 7 rounds anyway.
A CL1 Trapsmith haste wand, with Wand Mastery (available at 8th level easily), would last 3 rounds on up to 3 critters. That looks like a very strong use of actions/cash/ craft reserve. I doubt there will be much of much left after 3 rounds.
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You should really have Prime move this into the Handbook boards. I know I will be looking up this guide quite a bit in the future (and since this is a method of saving money it will almost definitely be referenced in my handbook). Have a thread moved is as easy as posting in this thread (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10375).
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Done.
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"Caster Level" isn't really a problem, to cast a spell of cheesed level.
There was a thread about this, late at the old TO board.
Minimizing Caster Levels:
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869590/Odd_optimization_project:_minimizing_caster_levels&post_num=6
Of course having a different CL changes some of the stats of a specific spell.
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I was trying to keep this in the realm of practical optimization, for use in actual character building, rather than a TO exercise. I think the tricks in that link go way past the tolerance of even very liberal DM's. If the consensus is that the CL lowering tricks have practical value, I will gladly add them.
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Isakir tell me if you need help for the more obscure PrC listings in my thread.
And this is an index, not a ... nevermind :banghead
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@PlzBreakMyCampaign- I did call it a list for a reason. If the majority think that all lists/resources/handbooks should go in one forum, I'm going to go with the flow. Makes searching easier anyway.
You've started a lot of threads. Want to shoot me a link? Or just point out the classes/spells I've missed? I have a whole folder of bookmarks from this project to useful links.... If I find it, I'll update accordingly.
EDIT: Found it. It was buried deep in the main min-max forum. I'm pretty sure the Diablo2 supplement is a bit too obscure. There are a number of Dragon Lance supplements that I don't have access to. Any help you can offer there would be awesome. I've pillaged the rest of the sources pretty well, I think, but if you catch something I missed, let me know.
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This may be the place to ask a question that has been bothering me.
I noticed you were missing Voice of the Dragon, a nice +10 boost to social skills. However I could have sworn I saw another one from Eberron that was used by the gnomes( I think it was in one of those side bars that aren't covered in the index) and did the same thing a level earlier and was a different type of bonus. If it's not something I imagined then thats a plus 20 to a skill that can turn the parties faceman into hell on wheels. If the artificer can buff him/her like that then you are in for some serious love by that person. :)
Any way since you seem to know a lot about the spells and where to find them I thought I'd give it a go.
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Glibness (SRD) gives a +30 unnamed bonus to bluff. Voice of the Dragon gives, amongst other things, a +10 enhancement bonus. They do therefore stack, but both are personal spells. I couldn't find the gnome-only spell on a quick search. +40 should get Arty anything he wants, even if CHA gets completely dumped.
They weren't listed in the bargain spell list because, to my knowledge, best access is via Bard for Glibness, and Sorc/Wiz/Beholder Mage or Dragon Domain/Divine Crusader which is pretty much right there in the spell description.
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another one from Eberron that was used by the gnomes
You might be thinking of Insidious Insight (Brd 2, Src/Wiz 2; Races of Eberron 187); the bonus type is Insight - helloooooo stacking.
best access is via Bard for Glibness
CL x spell level for Bard is 7x3 (or possibly 8x3, I do not remember off hand how "minimum level" interacts with that "0 unless your Charisma is high enough"). Either is going to be better than taking it from the Commerce Domain (spell level 4; Eberron Campaign Setting 105), but if Initiate feats meet your cheese tolerance - Whispered Secrets (Vecna; Races of Destiny 155) puts it on Cleric 3.
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I'm afraid I cannot condone Ur-Priest + Initiate feats. Having a hard enough time wrapping my mind around Divine Crusader (Commerce). :bigeye I'm going to sleep on this, and figure out how I want to add it in the morning.
"Shop smart, shop S-mart. Listen up you primitive screwheads, this is my boom stick, and you ARE going to get the lowest prices in town!" ???
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Think of the east india trading company's armed warships.
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Added Glibness. And thanks TML, that was a much more useful mental image than my Army of Darkness imagining.
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I was trying to keep this in the realm of practical optimization, for use in actual character building, rather than a TO exercise. I think the tricks in that link go way past the tolerance of even very liberal DM's. If the consensus is that the CL lowering tricks have practical value, I will gladly add them.
Not everyone agrees on the difference between CO and TO. I've actually (ab)used the Ur-Priest's low minimum caster levels, along with using souls and liquid pain, to craft items cheaply in a game...
Of course that stuff won't be usable by most people. So having it in a separate section, or even just linking to those threads, with a warning on either, is probably enough.
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Heh , I mean Bauglir's got the Max CL thread.
I think my point was CL and Spell Level , are different topics.
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Other psi classes can use this.
Make a powerstone of spell X via chameleon crafting.
Then do the standard psicraft/upd shuffle.
Or visit the dude who already has it, and psicraft it out of his mind to yours.
Bend Reality or Reality Revision too.
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another one from Eberron that was used by the gnomes
You might be thinking of Insidious Insight (Brd 2, Src/Wiz 2; Races of Eberron 187); the bonus type is Insight - helloooooo stacking.
best access is via Bard for Glibness
CL x spell level for Bard is 7x3 (or possibly 8x3, I do not remember off hand how "minimum level" interacts with that "0 unless your Charisma is high enough"). Either is going to be better than taking it from the Commerce Domain (spell level 4; Eberron Campaign Setting 105), but if Initiate feats meet your cheese tolerance - Whispered Secrets (Vecna; Races of Destiny 155) puts it on Cleric 3.
Thanks. I looked right past the spell for two days and never once thought to check the divination school.