Brilliant Gameologists Forum

The Thinktank => Min/Max It! => : Amechra May 28, 2011, 01:58:38 AM

: A bit of an odd question about the Tier System.
: Amechra May 28, 2011, 01:58:38 AM
Alright, my question is:

Is it even possible to make a Tier 3 class that has the versatility of a Wizard?
: Re: A bit of an odd question about the Tier System.
: dark_samuari May 28, 2011, 02:03:58 AM
Alright, my question is:

Is it even possible to make a Tier 3 class that has the versatility of a Wizard?

Isn't a wizard's versatility one of the things that make it a tier one choice?

: Re: A bit of an odd question about the Tier System.
: Amechra May 28, 2011, 02:25:27 AM
Along with power, of course.
: Re: A bit of an odd question about the Tier System.
: dark_samuari May 28, 2011, 02:31:14 AM
So you would be looking for extreme versatility but no incredible power?

I think off the top of my head maybe a Factotum or a Mystic Wildshaping Ranger with SotAO.
: Re: A bit of an odd question about the Tier System.
: kalaskaagathas May 28, 2011, 02:33:27 AM
Alright, my question is:

Is it even possible to make a Tier 3 class that has the versatility of a Wizard?

I don't think so.  There's versatility, like a Factotum or Mystic Wildshaping Sword of the Arcane Order Ranger, but without the world altering (and campaign smashing) power that comes along with a Wizard, their versatility is somewhat incommensurable to that of the Wizard.  The Factotum and Ranger alter things within the world to suit themselves - the Wizard alters the world (or creates a new one) to suit herself.
: Re: A bit of an odd question about the Tier System.
: Daniel678 May 28, 2011, 03:30:53 AM
Factotum 10/Chameleon 10 is at least as versatile as a wizard. However as was stated before, this character can adapt to any circumstance and do well. A wizard can change any circumstance to one that suits them. They are about equal in their versatility though.
: Re: A bit of an odd question about the Tier System.
: Prime32 May 28, 2011, 11:34:53 AM
This (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11701) is pretty versatile, depending on how many domains you have access to.
: Re: A bit of an odd question about the Tier System.
: KellKheraptis May 28, 2011, 09:24:00 PM
Abuse of the capstone of a factotum (ironically gained at 19th level) can get you the same power as a wizard with Sanctum Spell and a nice spellbook :)
: Re: A bit of an odd question about the Tier System.
: JaronK May 29, 2011, 12:23:06 AM
Factotum would do it.  Binder might as well.  Chameleon can often edge into T2 territory.  Of course, you won't have the power of a Wizard, but you'd have lots of versatility.

JaronK
: Re: A bit of an odd question about the Tier System.
: gorfnad May 29, 2011, 12:56:31 AM
Beguiler/ Shadowcraft Mage could get quite scary and has decent versatility.
: Re: A bit of an odd question about the Tier System.
: JaronK May 29, 2011, 02:04:27 AM
Beguiler/ Shadowcraft Mage could get quite scary and has decent versatility.

Shadowcraft Mage would boost that class well above T3, though.

JaronK
: Re: A bit of an odd question about the Tier System.
: KellKheraptis May 29, 2011, 03:04:06 AM
Beguiler/ Shadowcraft Mage could get quite scary and has decent versatility.

Shadowcraft Mage would boost that class well above T3, though.

JaronK

SCM is somewhere in the realm of Incantatrix, Dweomerkeeper, Tainted Sorcerer, Illithid Savant, Planar Shepherd and Beholder Mage.  Consider these the Big Seven PrC's.
: Re: A bit of an odd question about the Tier System.
: JaronK May 29, 2011, 05:36:04 AM
I never understood why people fail to put Runesmith on that list. 

JaronK
: Re: A bit of an odd question about the Tier System.
: KellKheraptis May 29, 2011, 05:37:32 AM
I never understood why people fail to put Runesmith on that list. 

JaronK

Can a Runesmith rape the action economy and cast free greater effect miracles, while chain gating a chained gate?
: Re: A bit of an odd question about the Tier System.
: BrainCandy May 29, 2011, 03:09:40 PM
I never understood why people fail to put Runesmith on that list.  

JaronK

Can a Runesmith rape the action economy and cast free greater effect miracles, while chain gating a chained gate?

Well, a Runesmith CAN make a magic item that lets him cast Time Stop at will for free. Technically he could take infinite actions before anyone else can act.  There are many other really silly things a Runesmith can make. For example, I once made a crossbow that shot gelatinous cubes. Runesmith abuse is costly in price, but nasty.
: Re: A bit of an odd question about the Tier System.
: Nytemare3701 May 29, 2011, 03:17:44 PM
I once made a crossbow that shot gelatinous cubes.

I must know more.
: Re: A bit of an odd question about the Tier System.
: BrainCandy May 29, 2011, 05:34:25 PM
I once made a crossbow that shot gelatinous cubes.

I must know more.

It is really simple. I made a ring that went on the front of the Xbow that had a permanent rune of Polymorph Any Object on it. The rune was set to target xbow bolts that pass through it and turn them into gelatinous cubes.

I don't know if Runecaster is quite on the same level as properly built wizards, but they can do some downright awesome stuff.
: Re: A bit of an odd question about the Tier System.
: JaronK May 29, 2011, 08:07:23 PM
Can a Runesmith rape the action economy and cast free greater effect miracles, while chain gating a chained gate?

No.  However, he's perfectly capable of having any spell as a spell like ability, free of all costs and as a standard action (though it has to be one level lower than his normal spells).  So, True Creation to randomly create whatever materials he wants, such as Obdurium, Diamonds, or other expensive materials?  Sure.  Animate Dread Warrior for an endless army?  Go for it.  Every spell that's balanced by the fact that its component costs or casting time is too great becomes completely broken.

And note that I'm talking about the Races of Stone Runesmith, not the Runecaster.

JaronK
: Re: A bit of an odd question about the Tier System.
: Midnight_v May 29, 2011, 08:11:48 PM
I never understood why people fail to put Runesmith on that list. 

JaronK
What's a (nubian) runesmith? -Chasing Amy
: Re: A bit of an odd question about the Tier System.
: Petruchio May 29, 2011, 09:47:04 PM
In the manner of an Elf, the answer is both yes and no. A base Tier Three class as a base Tier 3 class could not match both the versatility and power of the Wizard. As kalaskaagathas said, Tier Three class has may have great versatility as according to its situation, but lacks the world shattering power of the Wizard. Relatedly, the Tier Two classes have a power comparable to the Wizard, but largely lacks the versatility.

However, a Tier Three class can emulate the powers of a Wizard, or another Tier One class through the appropriate use of PrCs, or as KellKheraptis pointed to, capstone abilities. The examples of  Beguiler/Shadowcraft Mage, and Factotum/Chameleon (given by gorfnad and Daniel) emulate the powers of the Wizard as does the Factotum's capstone ability.

Additionally, a Rainbow Servant on top of a Warmage/Beguiler/DreadNerco would give spontaneous casting of the entire Cleric spell list, matching the Wizard's power and exceeding its versatility. Similarly, the Arcane Disciple Feat taken multiple times on these same base classes would yield a similar expansion of versatility and power.

The use of almost any of the "Big 7" PrCs would also knock a Tier Three class up into Tier One, as would the use of a fast casting progression PrC such as the Ur-Priest or Sublime Cord.

I conjecture also, that the capstone ability of the Dread Necromancer would also, once attained, make said character a match for the Wizard. The ability to consistently not die should be consider a Tier Two if not Tier One capacity.
: Re: A bit of an odd question about the Tier System.
: Akalsaris May 30, 2011, 02:05:56 AM
Factotum would do it.  Binder might as well.  Chameleon can often edge into T2 territory.  Of course, you won't have the power of a Wizard, but you'd have lots of versatility.

JaronK

Well, that settles that :P

I'd say a binder with the SM vestige is probably as close to a wizard's versatility without the power as you're likely to get in the T3/low T2 range.
: Re: A bit of an odd question about the Tier System.
: The_Mad_Linguist May 30, 2011, 02:34:44 AM
The ability to consistently not die should be consider a Tier Two if not Tier One capacity.
Yeah, but that can be picked up by anyone with a three level dip.
: Re: A bit of an odd question about the Tier System.
: JaronK May 30, 2011, 03:07:41 AM
What's a (nubian) runesmith? -Chasing Amy

It's from Races of Stone.  It was printed next to the Shadowcraft Mage, so everyone ignores it because the SCM is so much more obviously broken.  But the class gets the ability to ignore all somatic components (it's a dwarf class designed for casting in heavy armor), the ability to cast spells into runes that can be triggered at any later date by anyone else (so you could cast a personal buff into a rune and give it to your party tank, then three days later they could cast it), and the ability to permanently lose an arcane spell slot to get a spell like ability one level lower twice a day (you have to pay the Xp costs once or the material costs 20 times when you do this, but it's free from then on out).

Between the ability to store unused spells in runes for later use and the ability to play havoc with spell like abilities, this class has all kinds of potential.  You need heavy armor proficiency, but this class is begging for a Binder 1/Wizard 3/Anima Mage 10 entry, binding Sovok to get heavy armor.

JaronK
: Re: A bit of an odd question about the Tier System.
: BrainCandy May 30, 2011, 06:06:46 AM
For the record, I was talking about Runecaster from Forgotten Realms earlier. I got my PRC's jumbled up.
: Re: A bit of an odd question about the Tier System.
: Tshern May 30, 2011, 10:52:14 AM
The ability to wear heavy armour and then using Savnok is hardly worth it. Wizards got better ways of defending themselves anyway.
: Re: A bit of an odd question about the Tier System.
: KellKheraptis May 30, 2011, 11:33:59 AM
What's a (nubian) runesmith? -Chasing Amy

It's from Races of Stone.  It was printed next to the Shadowcraft Mage, so everyone ignores it because the SCM is so much more obviously broken.  But the class gets the ability to ignore all somatic components (it's a dwarf class designed for casting in heavy armor), the ability to cast spells into runes that can be triggered at any later date by anyone else (so you could cast a personal buff into a rune and give it to your party tank, then three days later they could cast it), and the ability to permanently lose an arcane spell slot to get a spell like ability one level lower twice a day (you have to pay the Xp costs once or the material costs 20 times when you do this, but it's free from then on out).

Between the ability to store unused spells in runes for later use and the ability to play havoc with spell like abilities, this class has all kinds of potential.  You need heavy armor proficiency, but this class is begging for a Binder 1/Wizard 3/Anima Mage 10 entry, binding Sovok to get heavy armor.

JaronK

Wasn't there once a way to get a per day SLA turned into an at will?
: Re: A bit of an odd question about the Tier System.
: Midnight_v May 30, 2011, 11:57:49 AM
For the record, I was talking about Runecaster from Forgotten Realms earlier. I got my PRC's jumbled up.
Honestly thats what I thought he meant too.

: Jaronk
It's from Races of Stone...
I'll give it too you it does sound good. Not sure if its one of the big 7 but I can definately see how you
feel the way you do. Party tank, though? I don't really see that much.
Every monster seems to turn and go "Hmm... look that ones wearing robes! I'll attack that one!"
We walk into a room and two giant's stand up hoisting giant rocks, my dm looks and goes "Now which one of you was the mage, again?"
So yeah being a caster in full plate might have its benefits lol.
: Re: A bit of an odd question about the Tier System.
: BrainCandy May 30, 2011, 01:34:40 PM
I've actually played a Runesmith to, they do in fact rock. While they are not quite as campaign smashing as some other PRC's, Runesmith is only 5 levels. You can squeeze it in with other PRC's. Also, if you use something like Dragonslayer you can get into Runesmith with no lost caster levels. As someone else said, the one thing Runesmith does well is make the lower tier classes in your party better. There are a ton of self only spells that other party members covet.

Personally, I only took 3 Runesmith levels with mine because I didn't have enough room to get Dragonslayer in and still get 10 levels of Incantrix.
: Re: A bit of an odd question about the Tier System.
: The_Mad_Linguist May 30, 2011, 02:12:12 PM
Wasn't there once a way to get a per day SLA turned into an at will?
Spellthief (+ bloodlines/LC for higher levels).
: Re: A bit of an odd question about the Tier System.
: WarlockLord May 30, 2011, 03:34:14 PM
Beguiler/ Shadowcraft Mage could get quite scary and has decent versatility.

Shadowcraft Mage would boost that class well above T3, though.

JaronK

SCM is somewhere in the realm of Incantatrix, Dweomerkeeper, Tainted Sorcerer, Illithid Savant, Planar Shepherd and Beholder Mage.  Consider these the Big Seven PrC's.

And Anima Mage.  No CL loss (with the Bind Vestige/Improved Bind Vestige feats, which you can retrain once you hit the PrC), 3 free persists, an extra ninth level slot, summon monster for free every 5 rounds, and every item creation feat ever (including Craft Contingent).  It's way underloved and underrated.
: Re: A bit of an odd question about the Tier System.
: JaronK May 30, 2011, 05:33:00 PM
The ability to wear heavy armour and then using Savnok is hardly worth it. Wizards got better ways of defending themselves anyway.

The armor thing isn't the good part... The nice thing about Savnok is just that you wanted Binder for Anima Mage anyway, and you needed heavy armor proficiency to get into the class.  The two seriously huge things about Runesmith are the ability to store any unused spells you like for later (and let anyone else in the party cast them when the time comes) and the ability to turn your spells into Spell Like Abilities that will then ignore material components and Xp costs and won't take longer than a Standard Action to cast.  That's hugely breakable when you play with it.  The more downtime you have, the stronger the Runesmith gets, as he can essentially turn your entire party into casters (spend a few days casting rune spells of personal buffs, then give them to your tank so when a fight starts he can self buff, for example).  It's like having the ability to make scrolls entirely for free that don't require UMD to use, with the only restrictions being you can make them two levels lower than your highest casting level and you can only make a few (based on con modifier) per day.

The armor bit is just to make you look like a tank and confuse enemies, but it really doesn't matter much.  But hey, free AC is free AC, right?

@KellKheraptis :  Never heard of one, but if such an ability exists that would be awesome, both for Runesmiths and for Factotums.

@WarlockLord:  Yeah, Anima Mages need to be on that list.  Free metamagic and binding is amazing, and if you have access to Zceryll it just goes insane.  Note that you can't get every Item Creation feat ever that way, because some have prerequisites... but you can use all the ones you qualify for, and that's still amazing.  The best part is that Tainted Sorcerer is only one level long, so you can actually do Binder 1/Wizard 3/Anima Mage 10/Tainted Sorcerer 1/Runesmith 5, getting in the full benefits of three insanely good classes.  Free metamagic all day long at no cost, insanely good casting stat, runic casting, free spell likes, and everything else?  Yeah, that's completely nuts.

JaronK
: Re: A bit of an odd question about the Tier System.
: Petruchio May 31, 2011, 12:48:23 AM
The ability to consistently not die should be consider a Tier Two if not Tier One capacity.
Yeah, but that can be picked up by anyone with a three level dip.

Really? What class allows lichdom-esque abilities with a three level dip.

@JaronK: I've discovered the Runesmith some time ago as well, and I'm surprised that it doesn't get much love on these boards. The Runes themselves are invaluable, creation of a permanent Rune SLA, and the removal of all somatic components is alot for a five level class. Even without the Anima Mage, it should be more prominent in wizard builds. This class makes Dwarven wizards > Elven wizards. An archetype destroying PrC I say.
: Re: A bit of an odd question about the Tier System.
: Tshern May 31, 2011, 12:50:42 AM
Ghost's Savage Species progression.
: Re: A bit of an odd question about the Tier System.
: Kajhera May 31, 2011, 12:52:29 AM
Found here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a).
: Re: A bit of an odd question about the Tier System.
: WarlockLord May 31, 2011, 03:57:35 AM
@JaronK: I'm not too sure about the Tainted Sorceror's usage in a build like that, though.  The level-up will save and the difficulty of acquiring initial taint (I've never seen a campaign which used it) would seem to make your build a bit difficult to use in many campaigns.  The will save is easy, finding taint may not be.
: Re: A bit of an odd question about the Tier System.
: JaronK May 31, 2011, 04:13:49 AM
@JaronK: I'm not too sure about the Tainted Sorceror's usage in a build like that, though.  The level-up will save and the difficulty of acquiring initial taint (I've never seen a campaign which used it) would seem to make your build a bit difficult to use in many campaigns.  The will save is easy, finding taint may not be.

Obviously you need to have the taint mechanic available if you're going to do that build, but the will save is no trouble... simply buy a Novice Ring of the Diamond Mind (3kgp) and use it to activate Moment of Perfect Mind when you level up.  No worries at all.  But yes, the PrC is often not available.  If it isn't, dip something else... IIRC, Dragonslayer would give you heavy armor proficiency in one level without loss of spellcasting, so that would allow you to not bind Sovok in that build.  That class should be generally more available.

JaronK
: Re: A bit of an odd question about the Tier System.
: zook1shoe May 31, 2011, 04:56:06 AM
Is there a tier system for prestige classes?
: Re: A bit of an odd question about the Tier System.
: Kajhera May 31, 2011, 11:13:43 AM
@JaronK: I'm not too sure about the Tainted Sorceror's usage in a build like that, though.  The level-up will save and the difficulty of acquiring initial taint (I've never seen a campaign which used it) would seem to make your build a bit difficult to use in many campaigns.  The will save is easy, finding taint may not be.

'A tainted sorcerer accumulates taint for casting her spells. All spells a tainted sorcerer casts are evil spells. She must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + spell level) or increase her taint score by 1.'

Once you're in, it's a one-way journey.
: Re: A bit of an odd question about the Tier System.
: WarlockLord May 31, 2011, 01:50:26 PM
@JaronK: I'm not too sure about the Tainted Sorceror's usage in a build like that, though.  The level-up will save and the difficulty of acquiring initial taint (I've never seen a campaign which used it) would seem to make your build a bit difficult to use in many campaigns.  The will save is easy, finding taint may not be.

'A tainted sorcerer accumulates taint for casting her spells. All spells a tainted sorcerer casts are evil spells. She must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + spell level) or increase her taint score by 1.'

Once you're in, it's a one-way journey.

Well, yeah, I knew that.  I was referring to the 4 points of initial taint you need to get in.
: Re: A bit of an odd question about the Tier System.
: Kajhera May 31, 2011, 02:08:13 PM
@JaronK: I'm not too sure about the Tainted Sorceror's usage in a build like that, though.  The level-up will save and the difficulty of acquiring initial taint (I've never seen a campaign which used it) would seem to make your build a bit difficult to use in many campaigns.  The will save is easy, finding taint may not be.

'A tainted sorcerer accumulates taint for casting her spells. All spells a tainted sorcerer casts are evil spells. She must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + spell level) or increase her taint score by 1.'

Once you're in, it's a one-way journey.

Well, yeah, I knew that.  I was referring to the 4 points of initial taint you need to get in.

Then I'll cite the more relevant part - you're good once you find anything tainted. It doesn't wear out.

'For every 24 hours spent in a tainted place, or spent carrying a tainted object, a character must make a Fortitude saving throw. The base DC is 10, +5 for every consecutive 24 hours of exposure. Multiple simultaneous exposures (such as carrying a tainted weapon in a tainted place) increase the DC by +5 per source of exposure every 24 hours. If the character fails his saving throw, his taint score increases by 1.'

So it's really just the first point.
: Re: A bit of an odd question about the Tier System.
: JaronK May 31, 2011, 03:00:15 PM
Right, but the issue is that the DM must be using taint rules to begin with.  Usually I find they won't unless you specifically ask them to... and even then it's no gaurentee.  Tainted Sorcerer is amazing... if available.

JaronK
: Re: A bit of an odd question about the Tier System.
: Cagemarrow May 31, 2011, 03:20:06 PM
Doesn't consorting with evil outsiders grant taint if the rules are being used? As a Binder once you can bind Zceryll and start summoning fiendish creatures at will I would think that would qualify, and once you get to Summon Monster VI and can start summoning the Artaaglith from Ghostwalk you'll be traveling with an evil outsider cleric of Orcus that can create undead 1/day for free, which you can summon more of once every 5 rounds.

I don't think taint will be a problem.  :smirk
: Re: A bit of an odd question about the Tier System.
: Kajhera May 31, 2011, 03:23:55 PM
I think you'd actually have to summon fiends, not fiendish creatures, since Zceryll makes them all pseudonatural.
: Re: A bit of an odd question about the Tier System.
: Cagemarrow May 31, 2011, 03:28:30 PM
They still retain the fiendish template for those that have it, and the demons/fiends you can summon still have their abilities and alignment, just augmented by the pseudonatural template. Besides, I would think things from the far realm carry taint just as bad as a demon or outsider would, it would just manifest in a different way. Probably more mentally damaging than physically.
: Re: A bit of an odd question about the Tier System.
: JaronK May 31, 2011, 04:13:17 PM
If the taint rules are being used, it's trivially easy to get taint as a spellcaster (Planar Binding).  Since we're talking about a spellcasting PrC, it's really not a problem at all.

The issue is getting the taint rules in play in the first place.

JaronK