Brilliant Gameologists Forum
The Thinktank => Min/Max It! => : Saeomon March 16, 2011, 03:38:41 AM
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Here's the situation:
We're many sessions into a long-running campaign.
The party is about to reach level 7.
My character is the only Psionic character in the party.
This is my DM's first time running a campaign with a Psionic character.
I approached my DM with questions about how Psychic Reformation would work in this campaign.
My tone in approaching my DM was to say that Psychic Reformation is a power which can be abused, and that I'd like to work out a way in which to prevent abuse.
I suggested that usage of the power be limited to one time per level.
My DM responded by completely banning the power because of its potential to be abused.
I asked what potential abuses my DM saw.
My DM responded by saying that swapping out feats and skills is abuse.
I replied that this could not be abuse because such things were clearly spelled out in the ability of a power designed by the creators of the game, itself.
My DM said that if I was given a power which had the potential to be abused then I would abuse it, and made it clear that this accusation had to do with my specific style of play, adding that I was already skirting the line of abusing the system by making a character who didn't have any discernible weaknesses.
I responded that part of the fun to me is picking powers which are versatile, which does tend to minimize weakness, but which is a completely legitimate style of play.
My DM proceeded to list examples of when I had done "abusive" things, all of which had to do with my use of the Time Hop power to try to remove obstacles such as doors or prevent fellow PCs from reaching -10 HP in the middle of battle, saying these things stole the thunder of other players.
I replied that in case of the uses of Time Hop in battle, the uses made tactical sense, and that in the cases of using the power on doors I had always let the other players take the first crack at things.
My DM said that PR was nevertheless banned and that Psions would follow the Sorcerer system for trading powers (but not feats and skill points) and that I should be happy because I was getting something for free.
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I'm quite pissed off by this whole exchange. My DM is a long-time friend and I thought I would be treated with more respect. This is the first complaint I've ever heard, and I feel like my DM attacked the essence of how I like to game, painting it as illegitimate. Yes, I like to make strong characters. I also like to figure out problems as a part of the group. I don't believe I, as a player, should have to intentionally gimp my character just so there's an obvious weakness for the DM to exploit. I also don't believe it's wrong that my character CAN solve numerous problems, even problems that other party members can solve, so long as I allow the other party members a shot at each problem.
I feel as if I'm being punished for playing smart and making smart choices with my character build. I also feel like my DM is singling me out. I ALSO feel like my DM, by shoehorning the Sorcerer system onto my character class this far into the campaign and calling it a freebie, is pissing on my leg and telling me that it's raining.
That is, in a nutshell, where things stand. Am I being too sensitive, here? I realize that Rule Zero is always in effect. I've abided by all of my DM's rulings up to this point, but this the latest in many rulings which have come out against me, and it's starting to put a damper on my enjoyment of the game. Like I said, I feel like I'm being singled out for special negative treatment, which I believe is especially unfair since in all instances I have approached my DM in the spirit of compromise.
Anyway, if you've read up to this point, thank you for reading my rant. Even if you don't reply, I appreciate it. I needed to vent. The only other gamers I know in real life are all involved in this game so I have nobody else to talk to who understands what I'm talking about.
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Two things.
1. Your DM is a long standing acquaintance, not a friend.
2. Given that there are retraining feats in the PHB2 which allow for the exact same end result as Psychic Reformation (the former taking more time and gold, the latter taking less time but precious XP), you could make the argument that the basic concept of swapping about abilities is not broken. At all.
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2. Given that there are retraining feats in the PHB2 which allow for the exact same end result as Psychic Reformation (the former taking more time and gold, the latter taking less time but precious XP), you could make the argument that the basic concept of swapping about abilities is not broken. At all.
Just say that it's an alternative to killing off your character and coming in with a new one. You can't change as much about your character, but on the other hand instead of dropping you a whole level it only takes up some of your XP.
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Two things.
1. Your DM is a long standing acquaintance, not a friend.
2. Given that there are retraining feats in the PHB2 which allow for the exact same end result as Psychic Reformation (the former taking more time and gold, the latter taking less time but precious XP), you could make the argument that the basic concept of swapping about abilities is not broken. At all.
Regarding number one, yeah I'm starting to see that.
Regarding number two, I agree 100%.
IMO, my DM's being an authoritarian for the sake of being an authoritarian.
It's the disrespect that gets me. I feel very, very insulted.
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2. Given that there are retraining feats in the PHB2 which allow for the exact same end result as Psychic Reformation (the former taking more time and gold, the latter taking less time but precious XP), you could make the argument that the basic concept of swapping about abilities is not broken. At all.
Just say that it's an alternative to killing off your character and coming in with a new one. You can't change as much about your character, but on the other hand instead of dropping you a whole level it only takes up some of your XP.
I've offered to do just that, or to retcon my character as a Wizard. At this point, though, I don't know if that'd make a difference. This seems like more of a fundamental belief on the part of my DM that I'm playing the game wrong.
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Yeah, stuff like that happens. I've had DMs who refused to let new characters (to be precise, old players whose characters had died) buy magic items with their WBL because they "[didn't] want to reward dying." It was odd.
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Yeah, stuff like that happens. I've had DMs who refused to let new characters (to be precise, old players whose characters had died) buy magic items with their WBL because they "[didn't] want to reward dying." It was odd.
To be fair, it does make a bit of sense if you've got players who are using new characters as frei itenz plx.
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Yeah, stuff like that happens. I've had DMs who refused to let new characters (to be precise, old players whose characters had died) buy magic items with their WBL because they "[didn't] want to reward dying." It was odd.
To be fair, it does make a bit of sense if you've got players who are using new characters as frei itenz plx.
True, but less so if the other party members had already stripped the dead character of his gear, none of which would have benefited the new character anyway. I could understand a reduced WBL which they could spend as they saw fit, but saying that someone's reached some arbitrary level without ever finding or buying magic items when the party trips over them every day...
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Regarding number one, yeah I'm starting to see that.
Regarding number two, I agree 100%.
IMO, my DM's being an authoritarian for the sake of being an authoritarian.
It's the disrespect that gets me. I feel very, very insulted.
Suggest you politely withdraw.
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I actually have had similar complaints from one of my own players who felt that he had been unfairly targeted. In my own case, it was largely coincidental, as well as the player coming from a very different gaming background from the rest of the group, where the relationship between PC and DM was more adversarial than at my table.
Like you, the PC felt he had been unfairly targeted by some rulings, and that those rulings were undeserved, since he didn't see himself as the strongest PC. He asked if he could change classes to something that was more powerful, and pointed out the uber-charger, the near-undetectable warlock, and the fiend of possession, who all had the potential to kill his character easily. I pointed out PC-vs-PC battles weren't relevant, that his character had been the primary PC to defeat the last 3 encounters, and that if party balance was important, than his crusader/wiz gish was still stronger than the party's fighter or swordsage. The conversation ended with the PC deciding to stick with the character, but it was a reminder to me that PCs and DMs often view issues from a very different viewpoint.
My advice is to try to see this from the DM's perspective - what you see as trying to reach a non-broken compromise, he probably sees as another attempt to increase your power for little cost, or he might simply not realize that the last several DM's calls have all been to your detriment, because he made those calls on the spot, probably with the intention of improving the overall balance of the game. It also sounds like he doesn't know psionics well, and is suspicious of them, like most DMs =P
So yeah - I'd say take a step back and remember that you're playing for fun, and so is he. If Time Hop is bothering him so much (and sometimes people get hung up over something they really shouldn't...), then I'd just swap it out next level - there have to be other good powers for that level besides Time Hop.
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My advice is to try to see this from the DM's perspective
I'd take that a step further and suggest that you offer to DM a game with the current group. Let the current DM make a PC and run a random encounter or 4 without your character being there. Get a feel for the hotseat.
I replied that this could not be abuse because such things were clearly spelled out in the ability of a power designed by the creators of the game, itself.
translation: I told my dm that 3.5 cannot be broken with anything written by Wotc.
Then the bastard killed me with a level 1 kobold! :P
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Sounds like your playstyles are incompatible. And I agree, sounds more like an acquintance, a friend should not disrespect you in such a manner.
If you can't enjoy the game by nerfing your playstyle, I'd suggest you withdraw. Your GM and the other players may have grievances over being overshadowed :rollseyes
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Psychic Reformation I can understand giving a headache. Time Hopping doors I suppose I can understand giving a headache, though there are certainly doors weighing more than 300 pounds and Knock is a level lower.
I ... I can't see how anyone could think the use of Time Hop to give party members from reaching -10 could give a headache. ??? That's like ... less broken than Cure Minor Wounds.
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Thank you for the input everyone. I've been leaning toward politely withdrawing and your responses show that my instincts were correct. It'll suck, but suck less than continuing to pursue a course that has resulted in primarily frustration.
I'll also take into consideration the suggestion that I take over DMing for awhile. That's a good idea. I just think a cooling off period is in order.
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It really hard when he's someone reaches the point where they don't "trust" you. Especially, if they've sighted things that are "abuse" and you realize that his definition is different from your definition.
Further... this:
It also sounds like he doesn't know psionics well, and is suspicious of them, like most DMs =P
Reminds me of the origin of CoDzilla, but seriously... the psionics handbook came out. . what like 7 years ago. What the dm said and what your saying there don't connect exactly.
This Dm's complaints of abuse indicates, a person who probabbly isn't exactly spun up on mechanics "in general" and doesn't get that the players are "supposed" to win at least for the sake of the narrative. Casting time hop to save someones life? Or as a Knock spell? Really?
No thats on a certain level just anti-innovation. Further, he's put a spotlight on how he really feels
"If there's a way to abuse something. Then you'll abuse it"... :eh
Which is really something people who don't have a grasp of the system mechanics accuse those who do understand them of doing. Lastly... I imgine he's had these conversations about your abuse with the group sans you, so I'd really consider leaving. Why play with someone who doesn't trust you?
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Bust out DCFS. Spells are more balanced, right? :lmao
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Wish chain+Thought Bottle+energy drain+DCFS for full reformat into (tm) Red Wizard from Hell and then break your Staff of the Seven Part Power Magus off in his ass. And when he whines, tell him to be glad it wasn't Kell he insulted, because then he'd also be missing teeth.
:shakefist
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It really hard when he's someone reaches the point where they don't "trust" you.
Boy did you ever hit the nail on the head! It's the lack of trust that stings. I've known my DM for over 10 years. We went to college together. We've been in many, many gaming sessions together. You'd think that after such a long time I'd at least get the benefit of the doubt. Evidently not.
For the record, here's my build and the group composition:
Me:
Class Levels: Gnome Shaper 5/Anarchic Initiate 1
Stats: Str 10, Dex 14, Con 20, Int 19, Wis 14, Cha 14 (the DM chose to be generous with the stats)
Feats: Overchannel (1), Psicrystal Affinity (1B), Talented (3), Boost Construct (5B), Psionic Meditation (6)
Powers:
1 - Astral Construct, Entangling Ectoplasm, Matter Agitation, Minor Creation, Vigor
2 - Concussion Blast, Control Sound, Crystalstorm, Levitate
3 - Ectoplasmic Cocoon, Energy Wall, Time Hop, Touchsight
Noteworthy Skills: Ranks in Alchemy; unlocked all Knowledge skills, Autohypnosis, Decipher Script
The Rest of the Party:
Half-Orc Fighter 7
- Two-Handed Power Attack focused
- Tends to be the first to go down in a fight
Human Druid 7
- Has a "dire coyote" animal companion (seems to use the dire wolf stats)
- Mainly buffs himself and his animal companion then sends the companion into the fight, only wading in when needed
- Secondarily, will stand back and blast with Call Lightning
- Has only used Wild Shape as a scouting and disguise tool
- Played by the DM's significant other
Gnome Cleric 3/Rogue 3
- The party face; Diplomacy-focused
- In combat, primarily a ranged attacker, and thus rarely gets in sneak attack damage
- Secondarily a healer
- Very rarely casts buffs
Half-Elf Ranger 4/Sorcerer 2
- Archery-focused
- Planning to go into Arcane Archer
- Has a hawk as an animal companion; the hawk usually isn't around
Human Paladin 6
- New to the campaign
- Seems to be a stereotypical sword-and-board melee-type character
Elf Fighter 2/Wizard 4
- New to the campaign
- Archery-focused
- So far, spells used have been blasting first, with a smattering of utility such as Identify
My Role(s)
In combat, my focus has been on Astral Construct summoning and battlefield control, the latter primarily through Energy Wall. BFC is important, as the DM really, really likes to have monsters surround us and/or surprise us. My character, as a result, tends to take out the majority of the low-level mooks. I also tend to stick to the "back row" and therefore don't take as much damage.
Out of combat, I have attempted to be the party "toolbox," a role which I informed the DM I intended to pursue even before character creation began. Thus I've selected powers with a lot of utility: Astral Constructs for odd jobs, Minor Creation for all of its myriad uses, Control Sound for the sheer joy of confusing the hell out of NPCs, Levitate for movement on the Y-axis, Energy Wall for its masonry-crumbling Sonic version, Time Hop for the bajillion-and-one things it can do, etc. Therefore, yeah, there's a lot that I can do. I made that clear to the DM from the get-go. But just because I CAN do something doesn't mean that I always do it. You only get a certain number of PP per day. It's much more resource-efficient to spread around the tasks.
Nevertheless, I'm the only full "caster" that plays like a full caster. The only other full caster in the group is a Druid and doesn't play that way, but Druids don't have to play like full casters in order to still be full of win.
The Roles of the Rest of the Party
The Half-Orc Fighter is the classic BDF. He runs in and hacks stuff up until he drops from HP damage. Alas, he rarely gets buffed appropriately. I can't buff him because none of my buffs work on anyone other than me. The Druid refuses to buff him because the two don't get along in-character. The Cleric doesn't buff him often enough because the Cleric is spread thin due to multiclassing. The Sorcerer doesn't buff him because the Sorcerer has no buffs. The Wizard is new. Maybe the poor guy will finally get some buffs from the Wizard. Out of combat, this character really struggles to make meaningful contributions. He pulls it off, though, because of creative thinking.
In combat, the Druid primarily buffs his animal companion and himself and then has the companion do all the work. Early on he did some BFC with Entangle, but not so much lately. His favorite tactic is the aforementioned companion buff followed by either setting himself up as flanker or stepping back and using Call Lightning. The Druid's animal companion takes out the vast majority of those mobs which have a respectable amount of HP (meaning enough to survive one round of contact with an Energy Wall). Out of combat, the Druid's primarily a healer. There are a ton of things which he COULD do, but he's portrayed as a recalcitrant type. I'll add that this character is played by the DM's significant other. Therefore there will be no complaints from the DM about anything the Druid does.
The Cleric/Rogue suffers from the affliction affecting most multiclass characters with equal levels in two or more classes: spreading himself too thin. He's a ranged attacker, so he had to drop a lot of feats into the style to be able to hit. As a consequence of the party being the ones typically ambushed as opposed to the ambushers, he rarely gets off a Sneak Attack. I can count on one hand the number of times he's gotten that extra damage in this entire campaign. Therefore, he's finding himself relegated to the role of doing 1d6 damage per round or tumbling across the battlefield to drop a cure spell. Out of combat he's a little better. He gets to play scout and act as the party face. The DM hasn't thrown many traps our way and tends to roleplay out social encounters without Diplomacy checks, though.
The Ranger/Sorcerer/Soon-To-Be Arcane Archer is (and I really hate to say this) the Waste of Space. But, when looked at in those famous Being GOD terms, that's his role. He plunks out a few HP of damage and soaks up a few hits in combat. Out of combat, he's...well, I can't actually say what he does because I can't recall him really doing anything outside of combat. He really doesn't bring anything new to the table.
The Paladin is new to the group. I predict he'll be just like the Ranger/Sorcerer. I.e. a Waste of Space. Maybe a little more useful because he can actually wear armor without penalty.
The Fighter/Wizard is also new, but has already proven to be what the Ranger/Sorcerer should have been. He's filled the party role of arcanist. Sure, he may only have acted as a blaster in combat, but outside of combat he's actually been useful. If nothing else, he can identify items.
Campaign-Specific Features
These are a few noteworthy things about the campaign:
- The party's WAYYYYY behind on the wealth-by-level chart. To the tune of around 15K per character. The party had more treasure, but the DM ambushed the party with an encounter there was no way we could overcome and took 90% of our stuff. My character was the only one who wasn't knocked into the negatives, so I was able to bargain my way out. Thus I got to keep a few of my things.
- As I believe I've mentioned, the DM likes to ambush the party, particularly while we're sleeping. I'm talking like 9 nights out of 10.
- The DM has evaded all of my attempts to discern whether Psionics-Magic Transparency is in effect, both in and out of character. By observation alone, I've determined that it is, to a certain extent. Nevertheless, I avoided taking key powers like Dispel Psionics out of fear that I'd wind up with a worthless power. We have, so far, encountered zero psionics-using enemies.
Other Ways In Which I've Been Shot Down
I'll conclude with a short list of other things I've asked about or indicated a desire to do and to which my DM has responded negatively.
- At character creation, I asked if I could play a Warforged, due to its well-known synergy with Shaper. I was told no. As for why I couldn't, the DM said they were overpowered because they were Eberron-specific.
- I asked if I could play a Duergar from the XPH, for the poison immunity. I was told no, that's overpowered.
- I asked if I could play an Elan. I was told no, they're overpowered because they're immortal.
- I asked if I could play a Synad from CPsi. I was told no, because their racial origin made no sense. I suggested adapting the origin but was told no.
- I asked if I could play any of the Psionic races. I was told no, because the DM didn't like any of their flavor.
- I asked if I could play a Jungle Halfling, for the weapon proficiencies and poison use. I was told no, because Jungle Halflings are stupid.
- I asked if I could play a Gray Elf and was told yes. The DM subsequently reneged on this, and told me to stick to the PHB races, and heavily indicated a preference that I play a Gnome.
- When I indicated a desire to take buffs which were usable as Immediate Actions, the DM balked, saying this was unfair to the rest of the party as it introduced a new kind of action nobody else could use.
- My DM said that Psychoportive Shelter is the kind of power which was more likely to increase sudden ambushes.
- When planning for Prestige Classes, I was told that Crystal Master would not be available because all the immunities it offered made it overpowered. I was also told that I shouldn't take Constructor because it would make the party Fighter irrelevant. I was told that none of the PrCs from Hyperconscious were available because all of them are overpowered. However, I was told that Anarchic Initiate and Thrallherd were perfectly okay. So I went with AI. I'm starting to wish I'd gone with Thrallherd, just out of spite.
- I've been told that the DM plans to narrowly interpret what counts as an "object" or a "creature" for the purposes of the Time Hop power. This may include, i.e., terming a chandelier and a chain a single object and terming a horse and rider a single creature.
- My DM has indicated a belief that seeking poison immunity, a permanent light source, and the ability to not eat, breathe, or sleep in a single character is "abusive." All of the above are attainable with low- to mid-level magic items.
And one final note: my DM really seems to think that making a character without a glaringly obvious weakness for the DM to exploit is "abusive." My DM does not seem to believe that it is 100% the responsibility of the DM to present a challenge to the PCs. My DM, in this campaign, has not put us into direct combat with equal-leveled spellcasters. Were my DM to do so, there would be plenty of options for weakening my powers, such as Globe of Invulnerability, AMF, Spell/Power Resistance, etc. Instead, my DM insists on, e.g., tossing upwards of fifty troglodytes at the party and sending a Phantom Fungus over to target me specifically. There was genuine surprise on my DM's face when I manifested Touchsight and could suddenly SEE the thing. But, again, the DM's failure to understand what a player's powers can and can't do is never the fault of the player.
Ugh...just ugh.
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Ovveh, how'd you miss all those warning signs dude? I'm a fairly conservative GM myself and like a Tier 2 to 3 game, but the only one I might ask a player not to do might be the immediate actions, if the rest of the party were optimisation-weak.
Unless this guy runs amazing games, who the hell wants to fight 50+ trogs? Sounds like you have GM with poor GM'ing skills if he'd rather nerf PC capability rather than step up his game.
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Ovveh, how'd you miss all those warning signs dude?
That's a fair question. Honestly, I saw the red flags but chose to ignore them. This was the first opportunity I'd had to play in years. I spent the last several in law school in another state and just recently returned. So when I reconnected with this friend/acquaintance I jumped at the chance, not only because of the gaming jones but because I saw it as an opportunity to get reacquainted with the DM and another mutual friend/acquaintance, and also to meet some new people with a shared interest. I also tend to be a very patient, tolerant person and usually it pays off. Sometimes it bites me in the ass. This is one of those times.
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Ah... a featless warforged with an Everburning Torch is abusive. :( But s/he's fine with Minor Creation making poison? As long as you don't buy an everburning torch?
It sounds like s/he has much to learn despite years of gaming. :) It took me a long time (years, yes) to learn to really use numerous enemies, so it was the high-HP-damage stealthy melee characters shining. The context of my campaign made that character archetype seem overpowered when it really isn't. Likewise s/he keeps catering to your BFC abilities and therefore they seem overpowered. :p
If you had, say, more encounters with big critters with high-HD high-saves, your Walls of Energy would have lessened use, the fighter could show off his stuff better, the druid should do fine whatever, the cleric might have more opportunity to get in a flanking position, the ranger could shoot at it or something, and the paladin would have a relatively definite target to focus his Smite Evil powers on. Throw in some Frightful Presence and other fear abilities too. :p
Summary: You do have a glaringly obvious weakness for him/her to exploit. It's called Dragons. (Well...if anyone else could fly. Let them ride an Astral construct or something or fight more sensible opponents fitting these guidelines.)
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If you had, say, more encounters with big critters with high-HD high-saves, your Walls of Energy would have lessened use, the fighter could show off his stuff better, the druid should do fine whatever, the cleric might have more opportunity to get in a flanking position, the ranger could shoot at it or something, and the paladin would have a relatively definite target to focus his Smite Evil powers on. Throw in some Frightful Presence and other fear abilities too. :p
Exactly! I mean, I'm never going to be useless in a fight so long as I have PP. I've made sure of that. It sucks to feel, much less be, useless. But there are definitely many, many scenarios in which I won't be as effective.
Personally, I think it's the out-of-combat uses of my powers which tick off my DM, with a particular hang-up being my attempts to use of Time Hop on doors. I think my DM views Rogues as living, breathing lockpicks and that only Rogues should ever be allowed to open locks. I'm sorry, but if I played a Rogue and the only challenge the DM ever threw my way was opening a door then I'd be more than a little miffed. I should tell my DM that by this logic, Knock should be banned, too.
I also think my DM has bought into the mindset that each player must have a specific role and that there can never be any overlap. Fighters swing swords. Rogues open chests. Clerics heal. Wizards cast Fireball. Anything that doesn't fit into that narrow paradigm gets beat down.
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Your DM is uncreative and overly antagonistic. I've just started to DM, and I haven't had to tell my players "no" yet even with a Wizard and a Planar Shepherd around. I was under the impression it's a DM's job to facilitate the fun of the other players, not to try to beat them into the ground.
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If you had, say, more encounters with big critters with high-HD high-saves, your Walls of Energy would have lessened use, the fighter could show off his stuff better, the druid should do fine whatever, the cleric might have more opportunity to get in a flanking position, the ranger could shoot at it or something, and the paladin would have a relatively definite target to focus his Smite Evil powers on. Throw in some Frightful Presence and other fear abilities too. :p
Exactly! I mean, I'm never going to be useless in a fight so long as I have PP. I've made sure of that. It sucks to feel, much less be, useless. But there are definitely many, many scenarios in which I won't be as effective.
Personally, I think it's the out-of-combat uses of my powers which tick of my DM, with a particular hang-up being my attempts to use of Time Hop on doors. I think my DM views Rogues as living, breathing lockpicks and that only Rogues should ever be allowed to open. I'm sorry, but if I played a Rogue and the only challenge the DM ever threw my way was opening a door then I'd be more than a little miffed.
Were I getting annoyed at that, I would personally probably make the lock pieces separate objects from the door, clatter to the ground, and generally set the door all out of whack when it came back.
While letting the rogue keep the door usable.
Doors are loot. :p
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Were I getting annoyed at that, I would personally probably make the lock pieces separate objects from the door, clatter to the ground, and generally set the door all out of whack when it came back.
While letting the rogue keep the door usable.
Doors are loot. :p
This makes me wish I had the Control Object power. Go go Attack Door!
Alas, not a Kineticist, and my DM (again despite the clear wording of the text) said that using independent research to gain Discipline-specific powers is "abuse" because it avoids the feat cost. Forgot to mention that in my earlier rantings.
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Were I getting annoyed at that, I would personally probably make the lock pieces separate objects from the door, clatter to the ground, and generally set the door all out of whack when it came back.
While letting the rogue keep the door usable.
Doors are loot. :p
This makes me wish I had the Control Object power. Go go Attack Door!
Alas, not a Kineticist, and my DM (again despite the clear wording of the text) said that using independent research to gain Discipline-specific powers is "abuse" because it avoids the feat cost. Forgot to mention that in my earlier rantings.
To be fair, getting discipline-specific powers so easily does kind of invalidate that feat.
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Were I getting annoyed at that, I would personally probably make the lock pieces separate objects from the door, clatter to the ground, and generally set the door all out of whack when it came back.
While letting the rogue keep the door usable.
Doors are loot. :p
This makes me wish I had the Control Object power. Go go Attack Door!
Alas, not a Kineticist, and my DM (again despite the clear wording of the text) said that using independent research to gain Discipline-specific powers is "abuse" because it avoids the feat cost. Forgot to mention that in my earlier rantings.
To be fair, getting discipline-specific powers so easily does kind of invalidate that feat.
I agree with you somewhat. I think the XP cost and the fact that you have to spend a general slot to pick up the researched power mostly makes up for it. But that's my opinion. Your mileage may vary.
But it's a moot point in the context of the campaign I'm in. I wasn't planning to do it anyway. I only brought it up to my DM for the sake of argument, and the "that's abuse" response is what I got.
It's stunning, frankly, how much "abuse" there is written into the system...
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I've got another negative DM response to add. There's been so many that I've forgotten them and now they're flooding back.
So my DM's shoehorned onto Psions the Sorcerer spell swap method. To add insult to injury I don't get a retroactive swap for level 4 "because there are no zero-level Psion powers."
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- My DM said that Psychoportive Shelter is the kind of power which was more likely to increase sudden ambushes.
And here I thought Psychoportive Shelter (also known as "rope trick, psionic") was the kind of power that decreased ambushes.
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- My DM said that Psychoportive Shelter is the kind of power which was more likely to increase sudden ambushes.
And here I thought Psychoportive Shelter (also known as "rope trick, psionic") was the kind of power that decreased ambushes.
What I think my DM was implying was this: that if I took away the "fun" of inflicting upon us random encounters on a nightly basis then those random encounters would instead occur during the 10 minutes required to manifest the power.
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To be fair, and maybe go a bit against the current in the thread, I dont really agree that its all the DMs fault and that he isnt your friend because he doesnt allow you to do whatever you want.
Yes, he seems to like for the games to go his way. And its understandable that you dont like it. But truth be told, by what you wrote down, your character is by far the strongest in the party. Only the druid might compare, and by what you've said, she (btw, that comment about her was really unnecessary) doesnt really do much except send her pet to kill stuff. And you obviously are trying to make your character shine even more. Nothing wrong with that in a regular game, but does it really come as a shock to you that he denied psychic reformation? Sure, phb2 gives the option to retrain, but its an alternate ruling (personally I allow it, but most people I talked to actually dont, but then again I allow most things and just ask that my players dont try to break the campaign).
The DM obviously isnt a CO regular, but there's no reason to bash on his friendship just because he doesnt share the same view about a game like you do.
Personally, if I was faced with a campaign like that, I'd probably try to pull of something weird like a no loops attached fochluran lyrist, black flame zealot (although your rogue/cleric seems to be going that way :P) or anything silly like that. But if you already chose a system unfamiliar to a conservative DM while being the most powerful player on the table (borderline overpowered from your DMs point of view) ... You really cant be surprised he takes some candy away from you.
You could just adapt to the situation and fling a few psionic fireballs around :).
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To be fair, and maybe go a bit against the current in the thread, I dont really agree that its all the DMs fault and that he isnt your friend because he doesnt allow you to do whatever you want.
Yes, he seems to like for the games to go his way. And its understandable that you dont like it. But truth be told, by what you wrote down, your character is by far the strongest in the party. Only the druid might compare, and by what you've said, she (btw, that comment about her was really unnecessary) doesnt really do much except send her pet to kill stuff. And you obviously are trying to make your character shine even more. Nothing wrong with that in a regular game, but does it really come as a shock to you that he denied psychic reformation? Sure, phb2 gives the option to retrain, but its an alternate ruling (personally I allow it, but most people I talked to actually dont, but then again I allow most things and just ask that my players dont try to break the campaign).
The DM obviously isnt a CO regular, but there's no reason to bash on his friendship just because he doesnt share the same view about a game like you do.
Personally, if I was faced with a campaign like that, I'd probably try to pull of something weird like a no loops attached fochluran lyrist, black flame zealot (although your rogue/cleric seems to be going that way :P) or anything silly like that. But if you already chose a system unfamiliar to a conservative DM while being the most powerful player on the table (borderline overpowered from your DMs point of view) ... You really cant be surprised he takes some candy away from you.
You could just adapt to the situation and fling a few psionic fireballs around :).
Drull, dealing with an anal retentive DM and dealing with another gamer hurling obvious and pointed insults (to the extent of bringing in past exploits no less, making it a blatantly calculated slap in the face) are two TOTALLY different ballgames. As I said before, he's lucky it's Saemon and not me, as Saeomon seems to be a bit more level about it than my fire-headed ass would be :P
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My DM said that if I was given a power which had the potential to be abused then I would abuse it, and made it clear that this accusation had to do with my specific style of play, adding that I was already skirting the line of abusing the system by making a character who didn't have any discernible weaknesses.
I responded that part of the fun to me is picking powers which are versatile, which does tend to minimize weakness, but which is a completely legitimate style of play.
My DM proceeded to list examples of when I had done "abusive" things, all of which had to do with my use of the Time Hop power to try to remove obstacles such as doors or prevent fellow PCs from reaching -10 HP in the middle of battle, saying these things stole the thunder of other players.
I replied that in case of the uses of Time Hop in battle, the uses made tactical sense, and that in the cases of using the power on doors I had always let the other players take the first crack at things.
:banghead at the underlined portion. So eliminating your weaknesses is frowned upon? I didn't know "heroes" are supposed to strive for mediocrity.
Your uses of Time Hop are perfectly acceptable (obviously). Perhaps you should ask him just how, in his mind, you are supposed to use Time Hop if not how you have been.
Anyways, it just seems like this DM is not ready for even the simplest of optimization and you should probably find another group.
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So does this DM like to jump from one tactical encounter to the next? As in, downplaying/minimizing events and time between encounters because he likes to focus on the tactical encounters?
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My DM said that if I was given a power which had the potential to be abused then I would abuse it, and made it clear that this accusation had to do with my specific style of play, adding that I was already skirting the line of abusing the system by making a character who didn't have any discernible weaknesses.
I responded that part of the fun to me is picking powers which are versatile, which does tend to minimize weakness, but which is a completely legitimate style of play.
My DM proceeded to list examples of when I had done "abusive" things, all of which had to do with my use of the Time Hop power to try to remove obstacles such as doors or prevent fellow PCs from reaching -10 HP in the middle of battle, saying these things stole the thunder of other players.
I replied that in case of the uses of Time Hop in battle, the uses made tactical sense, and that in the cases of using the power on doors I had always let the other players take the first crack at things.
:banghead at the underlined portion. So eliminating your weaknesses is frowned upon? I didn't know "heroes" are supposed to strive for mediocrity.
Your uses of Time Hop are perfectly acceptable (obviously). Perhaps you should ask him just how, in his mind, you are supposed to use Time Hop if not how you have been.
Anyways, it just seems like this DM is not ready for even the simplest of optimization and you should probably find another group.
Do not do as bananaphone suggests. This DM has shown that any time you ask for her input she bans whatever you're asking about. Just continue on the line you're on of useful, unbroken character design and let your DM learn along the way.
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Drull, dealing with an anal retentive DM and dealing with another gamer hurling obvious and pointed insults (to the extent of bringing in past exploits no less, making it a blatantly calculated slap in the face) are two TOTALLY different ballgames. As I said before, he's lucky it's Saemon and not me, as Saeomon seems to be a bit more level about it than my fire-headed ass would be :P
Dont get me wrong, I agree that the DM is weird, but I'm just pointing out that maybe you're overreacting a bit (by you I mean comments in general :p)
As you say, he's dealing with a anal retentive DM, who believes that not dying of old age (Elan) is overpowered, and doesnt see the abuse a thrallherd is capable of, but the point is that the DM IS like that. And when you push his boundaries (as silly as they may be) he will push back. Just a very stupid example now, I know, but if you came into a "normal" game, and tried to pull of some of the monstrosities we can see on these boards (just for example since the pour divine guy is mentioned so much presume pun pun) the DM no matter how liberal would be pissed as well. Thats (by my reading anyway) how it is for this DM and strong characters.
I'm not saying Saeomon is wrong, far from it, but if you look at it from the DMs perspective, you can see where the conflict came from.
Btw, where is that line about the DM insulting Seamon, only thing I read was
My DM proceeded to list examples of when I had done "abusive" things, all of which had to do with my use of the Time Hop power to try to remove obstacles such as doors or prevent fellow PCs from reaching -10 HP in the middle of battle, saying these things stole the thunder of other players.
while annoying as hell, arent really insults, just (again) a difference of a play style.
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To be fair, and maybe go a bit against the current in the thread, I dont really agree that its all the DMs fault and that he isnt your friend because he doesnt allow you to do whatever you want.
Yes, he seems to like for the games to go his way. And its understandable that you dont like it. But truth be told, by what you wrote down, your character is by far the strongest in the party. Only the druid might compare, and by what you've said, she (btw, that comment about her was really unnecessary) doesnt really do much except send her pet to kill stuff. And you obviously are trying to make your character shine even more. Nothing wrong with that in a regular game, but does it really come as a shock to you that he denied psychic reformation? Sure, phb2 gives the option to retrain, but its an alternate ruling (personally I allow it, but most people I talked to actually dont, but then again I allow most things and just ask that my players dont try to break the campaign).
The DM obviously isnt a CO regular, but there's no reason to bash on his friendship just because he doesnt share the same view about a game like you do.
Personally, if I was faced with a campaign like that, I'd probably try to pull of something weird like a no loops attached fochluran lyrist, black flame zealot (although your rogue/cleric seems to be going that way :P) or anything silly like that. But if you already chose a system unfamiliar to a conservative DM while being the most powerful player on the table (borderline overpowered from your DMs point of view) ... You really cant be surprised he takes some candy away from you.
You could just adapt to the situation and fling a few psionic fireballs around :).
Drull, dealing with an anal retentive DM and dealing with another gamer hurling obvious and pointed insults (to the extent of bringing in past exploits no less, making it a blatantly calculated slap in the face) are two TOTALLY different ballgames. As I said before, he's lucky it's Saemon and not me, as Saeomon seems to be a bit more level about it than my fire-headed ass would be :P
Drull, before I respond to what you wrote, I want to say that I'm not upset at what you said. I think it takes guts to go against the current of a thread. I can respect that.
I've put myself in my DM's shoes and I actually can see things from the perspective of one running the game. Objectively speaking, yes, my character is powerful. Perhaps equal to the Druid, and arguably leaps and bounds ahead of other characters in the group. I won't dispute that.
I'm also willing to modify how I play the game in order to accommodate others, including the DM. I feel I've been reasonable all along.
What upsets me isn't what my DM has done but HOW my DM has done it. The manner in which my DM has responded to my inquiries, requests, and playstyle has been uniformly disrespectful. Like I said, this is somebody whom I've known for a long time, and I'm playing in a game with others both my DM and I have known for quite awhile. With all of my requests and inquiries, I approached my DM in the spirit of collaboration. My DM responded with an authoritarian hand.
To be treated like that by somebody I've known for years, gamed with in the past, and to whose authority as DM I was respectful was a shock and an insult.
To be blunt, I feel I'm being treated as a powergamer/munchkin/whatever-you-wanna-call-it that's out to break the game and ruin everybody else's fun. In light of my history with my DM and the circumstances I believe this treatment is wholly unfair.
So I'm left with two sad choices: I either soldier on, change my play style to accommodate my DM, and hope that things change; or I leave the group in as dignified a manner as possible.
My DM's made clear that there will be no compromises. From what my DM's said to me, I doubt there's much I can do to change their perception of me as a powergamer. Therefore, I'm leaning towards leaving.
As for anything I've said which can be interpreted as a slight upon the character of my DM's significant other, the other players, or even about my DM outside of the context of how this game is being run, I'm sorry. I don't intend to breed more ill will by making this about more than it is. Unfortunately, I'm feeling quite deeply wounded. Since my feelings are hurt I'm more likely to err and hurt others. For that I apologize.
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So does this DM like to jump from one tactical encounter to the next? As in, downplaying/minimizing events and time between encounters because he likes to focus on the tactical encounters?
Nope. Quite a lot of downtime between encounters, mostly due to ad nauseum debates between the PCs about what to do next. We've got tons of different leads to follow and been given carte blanche about which leads we want to pursue and how to pursue them. My fellow players have actually commented on the need to cut down on the endless debating and, in the words of Monty Python, get on with it.
Gotta admit that sometimes I have my character act just to keep the action moving forward. I haven't been the only one to do so.
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Just pointing out that I agree that you were mistreated in the whole situation, I just gave the other side of the coin.
That said, even though you're hurt (and that really is obvious by the tone of your.....posts?) maybe you're limiting your options. You dont have to like the DM (although it does seem like you're actually hurt because you do like him and the comments were harsh and somewhat unexpected?), the more important question is... Are you having fun while gaming? If the answer is yes, then screw the DM, adapt to his whining (thats not being a little soldier, consider it a compromise) and keep having fun with your fellow gamers!
If not, well maybe leaving is really the best course of action because , in the end, we all group together to have fun :D.
Btw, if it helps, i'm pretty sure that most of the people on these boards are considered powergamers in their groups :lol, the 2nd DM in my group made it clear i'm forbidden to ever again play a druid in his campaigns :P. And all it really took was an animal growthed bite of the werebeared dire tortoise....
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Btw, if it helps, i'm pretty sure that most of the people on these boards are considered powergamers in their groups :lol, the 2nd DM in my group made it clear i'm forbidden to ever again play a druid in his campaigns :P. And all it really took was an animal growthed bite of the werebeared dire tortoise....
Entertainingly, I'm probably the person in my group that is the most knowledgable of optomization, but my character is the weakest. This isn't to say I'm not contributing (Goliath Warblade 6 Bloodstorm Blade 4 with Knockback and Shock Trooper makes for rather interesting battlefield control), but I just don't really compare with the Master of Many Forms, Sorcerer, or Incarnate. I'm fine with this. If I wanted to powergame, I would go with a Wizard, not a Psion. Psions just have a couple of unique abilities (find a single wizard spell that lets you time travel, even if it's only in one direction/one round).
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Psions just have a couple of unique abilities (find a single wizard spell that lets you time travel, even if it's only in one direction/one round).
Teleport through Time. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pg/20030409b) :p
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Psions just have a couple of unique abilities (find a single wizard spell that lets you time travel, even if it's only in one direction/one round).
Teleport through Time. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pg/20030409b) :p
I stand corrected. Psions have no unique abilities :p
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Just pointing out that I agree that you were mistreated in the whole situation, I just gave the other side of the coin.
That said, even though you're hurt (and that really is obvious by the tone of your.....posts?) maybe you're limiting your options. You dont have to like the DM (although it does seem like you're actually hurt because you do like him and the comments were harsh and somewhat unexpected?), the more important question is... Are you having fun while gaming? If the answer is yes, then screw the DM, adapt to his whining (thats not being a little soldier, consider it a compromise) and keep having fun with your fellow gamers!
If not, well maybe leaving is really the best course of action because , in the end, we all group together to have fun :D.
Btw, if it helps, i'm pretty sure that most of the people on these boards are considered powergamers in their groups :lol, the 2nd DM in my group made it clear i'm forbidden to ever again play a druid in his campaigns :P. And all it really took was an animal growthed bite of the werebeared dire tortoise....
Agree, agree, agree.
There may be another option.
Try filling the DM's chair yourself for a campaign or two. Demonstrate that the DM role is one of a facilitator and not an adversarial one. Lend assistance to your fellow players in building their characters. When the players are having fun, they will remember. When it's their turn to sit in the DM's chair, they will be more likely to be open-minded.
I did this exact thing, and when it came around for someone else to DM they kept a lot of the same rules I had in place and overall were more player-friendly.
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Just pointing out that I agree that you were mistreated in the whole situation, I just gave the other side of the coin.
Fair enough. :) I'll attend the next few sessions, take more of a back-seat role, and see how things go. My character's Chaotic Neutral so I can play it off by saying she's enjoying the view, contemplating the uncontemplatable, or admiring the drapery. Still contribute, but tone it down even further. If I get a positive response, or no response at all, I'll take it as an indication that my DM is appeased.
Agree, agree, agree.
There may be another option.
Try filling the DM's chair yourself for a campaign or two. Demonstrate that the DM role is one of a facilitator and not an adversarial one. Lend assistance to your fellow players in building their characters. When the players are having fun, they will remember. When it's their turn to sit in the DM's chair, they will be more likely to be open-minded.
I did this exact thing, and when it came around for someone else to DM they kept a lot of the same rules I had in place and overall were more player-friendly.
Definitely a good idea, and one I'll work towards implementing.
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Perhaps its my vindictive streak, but appeasing someone who insulted you .... well you're a tougher gamer than I am Saeomon. Hopefully the situation improves for you.
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We had this same problem in my group and everybody taking a turn DMing was the solution. Once you see how other people run games, you can take what works and what doesn't and incorporate it into your own "way of DM."
Write up a "we all dm now" proposal and hand it to everyone at the table. If the current dm's story is directionless as you say, this is perfect. Everyone can run games based on the different leads the current dm has given out.
Also, a group of 6 is really what is causing all this strife. We have 7 player/dms in my gang and when 1 misses a game, not much changes. When 2 can't make a game, the game takes off. Unfortunately, it is just not worth it for us to kick anyone out.
We follow the guild model, where-in we are members of a guild who are searching for a multi-piece macguffin that we always seem to forget about (most DM plots only tack it on the end). This makes it easy to follow rule 1: you cannot play or give your character anything when you are dm. They stay in the guild hall.
If a player/dm can't do what they need in a single session, they can take as much time as they need. We even change seats mid-session.
Also, Dexter's Laboratory did a cartoon on this. DeeDee was the dm and the players loved her way more than Dexter.
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DMing yourself is a great idea, except it sounds like the current DM will take it as you stealing his thunder.
Try it, however, and see how it goes. Good luck.
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Meh, "mind if I give it a go when your campaign is done" rarely fails.
Though that might take months...
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DMing yourself is a great idea, except it sounds like the current DM will take it as you stealing his thunder.
Try it, however, and see how it goes. Good luck.
I don't think that this will be the case. I think when DMs start banning things that only seem powerful, they are starting to burn out. There is more evidence in the fact that the group is 6 players(edit 7 players). It is difficult to run a group that size.
The current dm should be more receptive if everyone gets a chance to DM and not just the person they perceive as a problem player. They literally have nothing to lose, not even thunder. Sharing infinite power is not that difficult.
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I had this problem in my last real world campaign, and I solved it by doing something that seams really backwards at first glance, here's what I did:
First, I took over DMing for a short campaign, to A give him a break, and B allow him to be a player. Then I asked the entire group to BREAK the campaign using no infinite loops and only those things that he had concerns with(his happened to be psionic action abuse, binding, and ToB.) By allowing him to see how hard it is to break a campaign, and how I prevented the campaign from shattering right off the bat(AMF/ null magic zones, among other things) It allowed him to see what it looks like when someone is really trying to break a campaign, and not just creating a versatile character. After the campaign, It was like a magic wand had been waived over my DM, he became more open to my play style(which from the sounds of it is similar to yours) and relaxed his paranoia a bit and allowed different 'magic' systems in his campaigns, as long as the basics were taught to him by the player who wanted to use it.
I don't know if it will help your situation, but it's another option for you... Hope it helps
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I'm going to start by doing something unfair: I'm going to pick on a single sentence from all of the text Saeomon has shared.
And one final note: my DM really seems to think that making a character without a glaringly obvious weakness for the DM to exploit is "abusive." My DM does not seem to believe that it is 100% the responsibility of the DM to present a challenge to the PCs.
I call this out because I'm firmly of the belief that the players have at least as much responsibility for the campaign as the DM. It's NOT 100% the responsibility of the DM to do anything, really. But the DM does have the burden of facilitating the game, which generally means being responsible for showing EVERY player at the table where the fun is.
I've run into this with my own groups fairly recently, from both sides of the DM screen. It's not necessarily that your DM wants your character to have a glaringly obvious weakness; it's probably that he's having a hard time coming up with a scenario that is reasonably challenging to your PC, while not absolutely destroying less-optimal (or less-optimally-played) PCs. Probably he's also having trouble in constructing situations where OTHER characters have their "time to shine," because you've crafted your character to be able to do a bit of everything.
And yes, probably he's not a creative as you might like, if he's relying on locked doors for the rogue to open as being their "spotlight moment."
The solution begins with communication. You've apparently been to law school, so you should be able to put your thoughts and feelings into a coherent AND constructive argument; just remember that non-lawyers don't have the same formal training in argument, and may have a harder time distinguishing constructive criticism from personal attacks. Explain that you are detecting a significant difference in play-style between how he's running the current game, and how you constructed your character; offer just a couple of the less-confrontational examples. Note that your character has had a lot of the spotlight, as a result of how you structured him. Explain, further, that you feel you've hit a wall with character development because of these differences. Then offer to either retire the character, in favor of one better suited for the campaign as a whole, or to help him see what sort of mechanical challenges ARE a threat to your character, without automatically destroying the "Wastes of Space" in the party*.
And yes, DM'ing yourself for a while might be to everyone's benefit.
*By the way, even using that term is pejorative to your argument, at least to me. For most players of my acquaintance, D&D is just something fun to do with other people; I certainly don't expect everyone to find their fun in exactly the same way I do. If, as is common, I'm the most CO-savvy player in the group, the challenge then becomes HELPING the DM, through my own character design and role-play, to help the other characters shine.
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I'm going to start by doing something unfair: I'm going to pick on a single sentence from all of the text Saeomon has shared.
And one final note: my DM really seems to think that making a character without a glaringly obvious weakness for the DM to exploit is "abusive." My DM does not seem to believe that it is 100% the responsibility of the DM to present a challenge to the PCs.
I call this out because I'm firmly of the belief that the players have at least as much responsibility for the campaign as the DM. It's NOT 100% the responsibility of the DM to do anything, really. But the DM does have the burden of facilitating the game, which generally means being responsible for showing EVERY player at the table where the fun is.
I've run into this with my own groups fairly recently, from both sides of the DM screen. It's not necessarily that your DM wants your character to have a glaringly obvious weakness; it's probably that he's having a hard time coming up with a scenario that is reasonably challenging to your PC, while not absolutely destroying less-optimal (or less-optimally-played) PCs. Probably he's also having trouble in constructing situations where OTHER characters have their "time to shine," because you've crafted your character to be able to do a bit of everything.
And yes, probably he's not a creative as you might like, if he's relying on locked doors for the rogue to open as being their "spotlight moment."
The solution begins with communication. You've apparently been to law school, so you should be able to put your thoughts and feelings into a coherent AND constructive argument; just remember that non-lawyers don't have the same formal training in argument, and may have a harder time distinguishing constructive criticism from personal attacks. Explain that you are detecting a significant difference in play-style between how he's running the current game, and how you constructed your character; offer just a couple of the less-confrontational examples. Note that your character has had a lot of the spotlight, as a result of how you structured him. Explain, further, that you feel you've hit a wall with character development because of these differences. Then offer to either retire the character, in favor of one better suited for the campaign as a whole, or to help him see what sort of mechanical challenges ARE a threat to your character, without automatically destroying the "Wastes of Space" in the party*.
And yes, DM'ing yourself for a while might be to everyone's benefit.
*By the way, even using that term is pejorative to your argument, at least to me. For most players of my acquaintance, D&D is just something fun to do with other people; I certainly don't expect everyone to find their fun in exactly the same way I do. If, as is common, I'm the most CO-savvy player in the group, the challenge then becomes HELPING the DM, through my own character design and role-play, to help the other characters shine.
More fair criticism of the views I've expressed. What's more, I find myself agreeing with you. :) When I really do think about it, yeah players do share in the responsibility. I don't know if it's 50%/50%, but that doesn't really matter. Players really do need to contribute, too, and I do believe that everyone in my group is trying to do that.
I'll further mull over what you've written. I'm not sure that approaching the DM for a conversation would go all that well at this point. The DM seems to be set in doing things a certain way, period, and I can't change how they act. I can only change how I act. In that regard, your other piece of advice, that I look for ways to make the other characters shine in their roles, is something I'll take to heart. It's the least I can do.
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As he doesn't like you removing the door...how is he about breaking the door with Mountain Hammer?
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As he doesn't like you removing the door...how is he about breaking the door with Mountain Hammer?
Or just a big hammer period? Play a barbarian.
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As he doesn't like you removing the door...how is he about breaking the door with Mountain Hammer?
Or just a big hammer period? Play a barbarian.
Better start with commoner, and bash the door in with your chickens, or a pig... :smirk
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My DM is Core-centric. So, if I restart as anything in Core it'll likely be Bard. No better way to show you don't mean to hog the spotlight than to play the class intended to be the epitome of "support."
Plus, I enjoy belting out anachronistic song lyrics mid-game.
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As he doesn't like you removing the door...how is he about breaking the door with Mountain Hammer?
Or just a big hammer period? Play a barbarian.
Using shrink item to bypass locked doors would probably be the closest Core-equivalent to time hoping them. I wonder what his opinions on that would be.
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My DM is Core-centric. So, if I restart as anything in Core it'll likely be Bard. No better way to show you don't mean to hog the spotlight than to play the class intended to be the epitome of "support."
Plus, I enjoy belting out anachronistic song lyrics mid-game.
Grant the entire party +10d6 fire damage? On every attack! Sure!
Really, check out the bard guide and boost your Inspire Courage to outrageous levels. Go! Do it!
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My DM is Core-centric. So, if I restart as anything in Core it'll likely be Bard. No better way to show you don't mean to hog the spotlight than to play the class intended to be the epitome of "support."
Plus, I enjoy belting out anachronistic song lyrics mid-game.
Grant the entire party +10d6 fire damage? On every attack! Sure!
Really, check out the bard guide and boost your Inspire Courage to outrageous levels. Go! Do it!
No, you make it sonic.
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Sent my DM the following email:
I'm coming to you with a proposal in the spirit of reconciliation. Even though I didn't intend it, the choices I've made with [my character] have led to a power imbalance in the game. Or at least a perceived power imbalance. Either way, that's not good, since it's hindering your enjoyment of the game.
Therefore I propose revising [my character's] power list, dropping those powers which have been most balance-wrecking. Those powers I see as having interfered most greatly with the balance of the game are the following:
Crystalstorm - Constitution damage is quite strong for a level 2 power
Time Hop - we've both know how many applications this power has, by its wording
Those are the biggest offenders, in my book. I believe they also have the greatest potential to remain long-term offenders.
In lieu of Crystalstorm, how about I give her Mass Missive? It's a pure utility power. And instead of Time Hop, how about Dispel Psionics? I still don't know if it'll work on magical effects, but whatever. If it does, it's a way of focusing on helping other party members. If you don't care for either of those powers, or think they're in any way more game-breaking than the ones I already have, I'll happily take other ones instead.
I also propose removing her one level in the Anarchic Initiate PrC. The PrC adds to her power level and she was already quite strong as a single-classed Psion. That level will be replaced with another level of Psion.
For the future, unless you're okay with it, I'll plan on keeping her as a single-classed Psion. There's only one other PrC which I'd really consider at this point: the Constructor. I did talk with you about that one and you said it would be okay. If that's no longer true then that's cool. The PrC would cause her to lose two manifester levels, whereas the Anarchic Initiate does not, so there is a real trade-off there. It would also refocus her on primarily being a Construct summoner. Whether or not that option remains open is entirely up to you. I'm cool with having her be a single-classed Psion. There are a few skill points that I invested into Knowledge (The Planes) simply to meet the prerequisites for Anarchic Initiate. If I could place them, instead, into my Craft skills, I'd appreciate it.
I know there's the possibility that you'll say that it's fine for me to keep her as she is. But I'm not asking what's "fine." I'm really trying to get at what you would prefer, as the DM of this game. I like [my character] and I've had fun playing her. My fun is impacting, at a minimum, your fun, though, and I don't like that. So please tell me what you prefer. Also, if there are other changes that you'd prefer to see made, please tell me what those are.
Also, if you'd consider any of the following powers to be balance-breaking, let me know. They comprise the short list of powers I was considering taking at levels 7-8. I know I only get 4 and there's more than 4 on this list. I just hadn't made up my mind, yet, so I figured I'd list them all.
Divination
Fabricate, Psionic
Dimension Door, Psionic
Wall of Ectoplasm
Correspond
Telekinetic Maneuver
So that's the sum of my proposal. To reiterate, I've made this proposal in hopes of working things out and making the campaign better for everyone. No more, no less.
Got the following reply:
What I would prefer is to not deal with this anymore. Do whatever you want. Take PR, redo [your character] from the bottom up, I don't care. I'm tired of dealing with it.
This is bullshit. I'm quitting the game.
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I'm usually skeptical of the actual circumstances involved in rage-quitting .... but that guy really is a dick. How fucking inconsiderate is that to completely ignore the painstaking care and conscientiousness you poured in to that email.
Fuck that dude.
in his butthole.
with a chainsaw. :shakefist
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Good call. He clearly doesn't care enough to be polite.
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They sound really worn out. Probably just in general, likely from DMing. :( I'm thinking having someone else DM might be a good break for them, rather than having to think more.
You did ask them to do a lot of thinking.
If they're finding the whole matter overwhelming, more thinking might provoke a short reaction like that.
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They sound really worn out. Probably just in general, likely from DMing. :( I'm thinking having someone else DM might be a good break for them, rather than having to think more.
You did ask them to do a lot of thinking.
If they're finding the whole matter overwhelming, more thinking might provoke a short reaction like that.
You're probably right, and if it had been just this one rude message then I wouldn't be responding like I am. But it's been a pattern of rudeness. Had my DM said something like, "Hey, I'm feeling really stressed right now. Can you hold off on the questions?" then everything would be cool. But responses like the one I was sent aren't cool at all, especially not from someone you've known for so long.
Also, for a little bit of context, I can really understand being burnt out. I'm an associate at a small law firm. I've got a lot of work on my plate. I also have a 7 month old niece in the hospital with cancer. My brother-in-law and sister-in-law, her parents, are going through hell. My wife is very close to her family, and I'm doing what I can to support her and all of them.
My DM knows all of these things and yet the rudeness still flowed. Gaming was supposed to be an outlet for some of my stress. My DM made it a stressor instead.
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They sound really worn out. Probably just in general, likely from DMing. :( I'm thinking having someone else DM might be a good break for them, rather than having to think more.
You did ask them to do a lot of thinking.
If they're finding the whole matter overwhelming, more thinking might provoke a short reaction like that.
You're probably right, and if it had been just this one rude message then I wouldn't be responding like I am. But it's been a pattern of rudeness. Had my DM said something like, "Hey, I'm feeling really stressed right now. Can you hold off on the questions?" then everything would be cool. But responses like the one I was sent aren't cool at all, especially not from someone you've known for so long.
Also, for a little bit of context, I can really understand being burnt out. I'm an associate at a small law firm. I've got a lot of work on my plate. I also have a 7 month old niece in the hospital with cancer. My brother-in-law and sister-in-law, her parents, are going through hell. My wife is very close to her family, and I'm doing what I can to support her and all of them.
My DM knows all of these things and yet the rudeness still flowed. Gaming was supposed to be an outlet for some of my stress. My DM made it a stressor instead.
Yes... getting out is a good idea.
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I'm usually skeptical of the actual circumstances involved in rage-quitting .... but that guy really is a dick. How fucking inconsiderate is that to completely ignore the painstaking care and conscientiousness you poured in to that email.
Fuck that dude.
in his butthole.
with a chainsaw. :shakefist
When wotmaniac pulls out one of my usual Vlad-style sentences, you KNOW it's getting bad. Seriously though, good for you. Tell that piece of shit fuckwipe off before you leave, and give him a spinning heel kick to the face from me :flame
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If you have the emails of the entire playgroup, forward them the emails. Follow with a short, polite note saying something to the effect of, "I've tried to respond to hostile criticism with reasoned and friendly accommodation. As you can see, {Insert GM name here} seems bent on maintaining his anger. I'll be leaving to look for a more friendly play environment."
Never hurts to make sure others don't think you're the villain.
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If you have the emails of the entire playgroup, forward them the emails. Follow with a short, polite note saying something to the effect of, "I've tried to respond to hostile criticism with reasoned and friendly accommodation. As you can see, {Insert GM name here} seems bent on maintaining his anger. I'll be leaving to look for a more friendly play environment."
Never hurts to make sure others don't think you're the villain.
Despite everything, I don't wanna drag the DM's name through the mud and I don't wanna destroy the group for everyone else. I'm already going to have to talk to one member of the group about all of this directly, since I'm related to him. I'll probably let everybody else draw their own conclusions.
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If you have the emails of the entire playgroup, forward them the emails. Follow with a short, polite note saying something to the effect of, "I've tried to respond to hostile criticism with reasoned and friendly accommodation. As you can see, {Insert GM name here} seems bent on maintaining his anger. I'll be leaving to look for a more friendly play environment."
Never hurts to make sure others don't think you're the villain.
Despite everything, I don't wanna drag the DM's name through the mud and I don't wanna destroy the group for everyone else. I'm already going to have to talk to one member of the group about all of this directly, since I'm related to him. I'll probably let everybody else draw their own conclusions.
All the more reason to forward those emails. All they'll hear is fuckwipe's side of things if you don't.
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At least let them know that gaming's become more stressful than stress-relieving and that's why you're leaving. I'm sure you can do it respectfully.
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this reminds me of a little episode with my group a while back.
the thing is, if you do end up passing the email around, make sure you do what I did, and simply send the entire email chain and simply say "what am I doing wrong here?" that way you emphasis the fact that you are indeed in the business of building bridges.
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All the more reason to forward those emails. All they'll hear is fuckwipe's side of things if you don't.
I see your point. So I've come up with a plan...
At least let them know that gaming's become more stressful than stress-relieving and that's why you're leaving. I'm sure you can do it respectfully.
...and that plan is to do like Kajhera suggests and do my best to take the high road without going away silently.
So I'm going to send a short email to the rest of the group that says I'm withdrawing from the game due to a combination of life circumstances and intractable conflict with the DM over playstyle. I'll tell them all that I enjoyed playing with them, that I regret leaving because the game had been fun, but that because of the differences between me and the DM it was time to withdraw; that due to that conflict the game had become a source of stress for me rather than an outlet. I'll conclude with an open apology for inadvertently stepping on any toes, whether or not I actually did step on any toes, and say that I hope that the group will continue to have fun.
I'll personalize it up a bit, of course. Use my DM's name and all that. But I won't cast blame or aspersions onto my (now former) DM.
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Here's what I sent. I think it covers all of the bases.
Subject Line: It's time for me to withdraw from the game
This news is going to become known to the group very soon, so I figured I'd step out in front of it.
Due to a combination of life circumstances and an intractable conflict between [the DM] and I over my play style, I'm regretfully withdrawing from the game. I wish that this choice wasn't necessary, but due to all of these factors gaming has increased my stress, as opposed to mitigating it.
For those who are not aware, my seven month old niece is in the hospital undergoing cancer treatment. I have been doing my best to support my wife and my family. I continued with the game with [my wife's] blessing, but told myself that if it became a distraction rather than a simple diversion then I would give it up.
Unfortunately, it has become a distraction. [The DM] and I have been struggling to find a way in which to coexist as DM and player for quite awhile. Lately our struggle grew larger. I am firm in my belief that I always approached the matter with an open mind and with the intent of seeking collaborative solutions, and it became apparent to me that despite my best efforts common ground could not be reached.
I say all of that knowing that every story always has two sides. Therefore, please know that by saying what I have I do not mean to cast any aspersions on [the DM] or to diminish [the DM] in your eyes. [The DM's] run a good game, one in which I've had a lot of fun. I hope the game will go on and that all of you will continue to have fun. In my case, the fun was simply overshadowed by this conflict.
I'll conclude this email with a sincere apology for my abrupt departure. I also apologize if I ever stepped on any of your toes at any point. I don't know if I did or if I did not, but if I did then know that I did not intend to do so.
I wish all of you the best.
[Signed, Me]
P.S. - I've left [the DM's significant other] off of this email because emotions are still running hot and I don't want to antagonize [the DM] or [the DM's significant other]. I've also left [my relative who's a part of this game] off of this email because I plan to speak with [my relative] directly. I hope that my choice will not affect how any of you view [my relative], or how [my relative] views any of you, [the DM] and [the DM's significant other] included.
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I think you did too much to cover the DM's ass on the email. I would have simply stated reasons for leaving and that would have been it. In trying to be nice it seems like you came across as the one who was wrong in the situation, at least from my vantage point.
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I think you did too much to cover the DM's ass on the email. I would have simply stated reasons for leaving and that would have been it. In trying to be nice it seems like you came across as the one who was wrong in the situation, at least from my vantage point.
Hmm...if that's your read then maybe I did try too hard to be nice. :shrug I thought my paragraph that starts with "Unfortunately" made it clear I wasn't at fault.
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Ok, first time I thought the DM was attacked unfairly by the people in this thread!
I WAS WRONG!
Fuck that dude.
in his butthole.
with a chainsaw. :shakefist
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Ok, first time I thought the DM was attacked unfairly by the people in this thread!
I WAS WRONG!
Fuck that dude.
in his butthole.
with a chainsaw. :shakefist
*lol* Drull, you've made me laugh. Thank you. I need to laugh because otherwise I feel sad. No, not so much angry as just plain sad. This whole situation just spun way out of my control very fast and all over something comparatively inconsequential. There's no reason, in my mind, that rationality should not have prevailed.
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They sound really worn out. Probably just in general, likely from DMing. :( I'm thinking having someone else DM might be a good break for them, rather than having to think more.
You did ask them to do a lot of thinking.
If they're finding the whole matter overwhelming, more thinking might provoke a short reaction like that.
This is also my conclusion. These kinds of things tend to happen in groups of 6+ players. I think you are dealing with a burned-out dm trying to maintain the last shreds of balance in a multi-tier'd group.
Here's the answer...E6 tier 3 only. Of course this requires going out of core for the classes in tier 3. It is not super difficult to run games at level 6 with bonus feats. The players have fewer surprises to spring on the dm, and require more teamwork to get their way. It is not difficult to break E6 by any means, but when you do, it becomes more obvious than it would at higher levels of play.
The best part is that all the classic archetypes are possible with tier 3 classes. Consider giving 7-8th level abilities as capstone feats (factotum fan ;))
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Umm, best wishes to your niece. I don't really care about your DM or your group, but I hope she does OK.
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Umm, best wishes to your niece. I don't really care about your DM or your group, but I hope she does OK.
Plus Fucking One.
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Umm, best wishes to your niece. I don't really care about your DM or your group, but I hope she does OK.
I'll second this. Having a daughter that has required 2 heart surgeries and isn't a year old I can really understand the parents plight.
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Umm, best wishes to your niece. I don't really care about your DM or your group, but I hope she does OK.
Plus Fucking One.
Plus 2, my thoughts and prays for you and your family
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Umm, best wishes to your niece. I don't really care about your DM or your group, but I hope she does OK.
+1
Being a parent I agree that these issues are inconsequential when compared to family health and well-being. I hope she gets better soon.
I had similar DM issues a few years back; and at the time I contemplated waiting it out and trying to make it work (our group left the DM in question). Had they happened to me today, I wouldn't hesitate to walk away.
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Umm, best wishes to your niece. I don't really care about your DM or your group, but I hope she does OK.
Plus Fucking One.
Plus 2, my thoughts and prays for you and your family
+ 1 more, and they stack. Best wishes to your niece. I think you did a decent job on the letter, hes a douche, but perhaps he has his own story, but at this point thats his problem.
Good luck finding a better group as stress relief.
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Umm, best wishes to your niece. I don't really care about your DM or your group, but I hope she does OK.
Plus Fucking One.
Plus 2, my thoughts and prays for you and your family
+ 1 more, and they stack. Best wishes to your niece. I think you did a decent job on the letter, hes a douche, but perhaps he has his own story, but at this point thats his problem.
Good luck finding a better group as stress relief.
+5 inherent bonus on the niece, and a +10 morale bonus on finding new stress relief.
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Indeed. Best wishes.
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Umm, best wishes to your niece. I don't really care about your DM or your group, but I hope she does OK.
Plus Fucking One.
Plus 2, my thoughts and prays for you and your family
+ 1 more, and they stack. Best wishes to your niece. I think you did a decent job on the letter, hes a douche, but perhaps he has his own story, but at this point thats his problem.
Good luck finding a better group as stress relief.
+5 inherent bonus on the niece, and a +10 morale bonus on finding new stress relief.
And each mirrored as Dodge bonuses by my resident Arty kept on retainer (being a proper Batman and all). Family>>>>>>>games, even the Big Two, being D&D and Our Lord of Destruction, Diablo II.
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Umm, best wishes to your niece. I don't really care about your DM or your group, but I hope she does OK.
I'm gonna have to tenth this. Unless someone Swordsages me.
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Thank you so much, everyone, for all the well-wishes for my niece. I teared up. Had to pull myself together 'cause I'm at the office.
I'll pass along to my brother- and sister-in-law what you've written. I'm sure they'll appreciate it.
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I don't want to share any identifying information without my in-laws' permission. It's not my immediate family or my child and I want to respect their privacy. But, I do feel like I should share the little bit that I can.
My niece was diagnosed with a Wilms' Tumor. It's a less-common cancer of the kidney. When it does occur, it occurs mostly in children. But even then it's usually in children between the ages of 3-7. So for it to develop in the body of a 7 month-old is unusual.
The fortunate thing is that the prognosis is good. The cancer was put at stage 2, which means it had spread a bit but not significantly. That also means that the surgeons were able to remove the entire mass in a single surgery. It also means that my niece doesn't need to go through as extensive chemotherapy and radiation treatments.
So that was the good news. Here comes the bad. First, the tumor was HUGE, over a pound in weight, and the size of the palm of an adult hand. Second, the kidney it had grown out of had to be removed. Third, there was a subsequent complication. She had to have a second surgery to correct a bowel obstruction. That doesn't change the prognosis, but it just about drove my in-laws insane to have to see their kid go under the knife a second time so soon. Surgery on infants is always a dangerous matter. Sometimes children simply don't wake up from the anesthesia.
We're still in the very early stages of dealing with this; they only found out the tumor existed a few weeks ago when my sister-in-law took my niece to the hospital for completely unrelated reasons. They thought she was having an allergic reaction to antibiotics she'd been prescribed to treat a bad ear infection, and the doctor's office was closed. They got there and found out it was every parent's nightmare.
The process is going to be slow. Unfortunately for my niece it isn't going to be without pain. She's been pretty miserable so far, and the bowel obstruction was a definite setback. It's delayed her chemo and radiation treatments for a few weeks.
On the plus side she IS improving. She's been acting more like a baby again, and has actually smiled and cooed a fair amount. She's a real fighter, and she's at one of the best hospitals in the world for cancer treatment. There's every reason in the world to believe that she's going to pull through this and grow up to be a happy, healthy, cancer-free child and then adult.
Your thoughts and prayers are very, very appreciated. It's been a rough time for my family. We definitely need all of the support we can get. So thank you for that support, and thank you for reading this.
As a conclusion, I'm posting this link to the American Cancer Society's donation page (https://www.cancer.org/involved/donate/donateonlinenow/index). It's been a rough few days for me, with all that I've written about in the preceding pages of this thread. It's been an even rougher time for my niece. If a little good can come out of so much bad then I'm going to do what I can to make that happen.
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Hang in there. Kids bounce back better than Adults do.
You and arcaA get to share the Real Life Sucks Sometimes award.
**
You could play a Druid 7 too.
1. Hidden Talent something weak duplicating an arcane
3. some almost worthless [psionic] feat
6. Natural Spell
... and act less coquettish :flutter than you know who.
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i'm very sorry to hear of your woes. and woes they are. a change of dm or gaming group is in order. as a person very fond of psionics and the rule of yes, i feel your pain. of the two, i think a change in dm might be worth a shot before totally giving up. up to you though.
and thanks for your guide, by the way, very useful to me. do you have a link to that psionic tricks thread, by chance?
oh, and penandpapergames is a good place to find local gamers and online games for the non-local.
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That's truly heartbreaking, Saeomon.
I've worked in healthcare for over twelve years and have seen all kinds of things, but sick kids still gets to me.
Glad to hear that your niece is doing better and has a good prognosis.
My prayers are with you.
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and thanks for your guide, by the way, very useful to me. do you have a link to that psionic tricks thread, by chance?
I'm glad you've found it helpful. :) Is this the thread you're looking for? (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10262.0) If so, here's the same thread on giantitp.com. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=177889)
I've worked in healthcare for over twelve years and have seen all kinds of things, but sick kids still gets to me.
Glad to hear that your niece is doing better and has a good prognosis.
Thank you so much. :)
Yeah, I've decided that if there is a Hell on Earth it's in the pediatric oncology units of hospitals. They do their level best to make them cheerful, and there's plenty of people doing fantastic work in those units. But, that doesn't change the fact that no child should ever have to suffer like those kids suffer.
At the same time, I've heard some of the most amazing stories of human kindness, like a 4 year old girl giving a pep talk to a teenager who was just diagnosed. Also, miracles do occur in those places every day. It's a crazy juxtaposition.
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Yeah it is tough sitting there knowing your child is under the knife. It is important that they have trust in her doctors, without that they will constantly dwell on the "what ifs" and wonder if the doctor screwed up or has her best interest at heart (1). The best advice I can give for when they are freaking out over things is to ask themselves "is there anything I could have done to make this better?" if they answer honestly the response will almost invariably be no. Once as a parent you come to the realization that there isn't anything more you can do and you need is to have faith that it will turn out alright you are a lot less stressed.
@Awaken DM I won't take the prize. I have a happy and wonderful baby girl that lights up everyone's day. To the point of the nurses in the cardio ICU wanting to take her home with them, they became an extended part of our family. So while it may occasionally throw a curve ball, life is still good.
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Yeah it is tough sitting there knowing your child is under the knife. It is important that they have trust in her doctors, without that they will constantly dwell on the "what ifs" and wonder if the doctor screwed up or has her best interest at heart (1). The best advice I can give for when they are freaking out over things is to ask themselves "is there anything I could have done to make this better?" if they answer honestly the response will almost invariably be no. Once as a parent you come to the realization that there isn't anything more you can do and you need is to have faith that it will turn out alright you are a lot less stressed.
@Awaken DM I won't take the prize. I have a happy and wonderful baby girl that lights up everyone's day. To the point of the nurses in the cardio ICU wanting to take her home with them, they became an extended part of our family. So while it may occasionally throw a curve ball, life is still good.
Yeah, they're coming to terms with the fact that there was nothing they did to cause this, nothing they could have done to prevent it, and that they're doing all that they can do and it's the very best that any parent could do.
My wife and I have had several conversations with them about their guilt. They were kicking themselves quite a bit at first, because in the weeks leading up to my niece going into the hospital, she wasn't sleeping but for around 12 minutes at a time. She'd wake up bawling and be nearly inconsolable. They said it got to the point where they were letting their feelings show in front of her. Of course, they were exhausted, so it was a very human response. However, I can understand feeling guilty when they found out that the reason why she wasn't sleeping was because the tumor was pressing against her insides. But they didn't know. If they had known then they would have acted entirely differently.
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This thread has grown to be about so much more than Psychic reformation.
I am glad that it's here, addressing issues like honest open communication, family, diplomacy, and love.
Such a pleasant change from "Hurf durf, you're ignoring line 5, so you're a moron" type threads.
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This thread has grown to be about so much more than Psychic reformation.
I am glad that it's here, addressing issues like honest open communication, family, diplomacy, and love.
Such a pleasant change from "Hurf durf, you're ignoring line 5, so you're a moron" type threads.
Indeed. Its a nice change. Thanks guys.
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I sincerely hope this is the only severe medical problem your niece has in her life. I will pray for her (unless you don't want me to.)
Same goes for you, a.a.
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I sincerely hope this is the only severe medical problem your niece has in her life. I will pray for her (unless you don't want me to.)
Same goes for you, a.a.
Any and all thoughts and prayers for her are welcome. :)
...
Since the thought occurred to me, I'd like to post something related to the original topic of this thread: a valediction against saying "you can't do that," as a DM. Or at least about saying it too often.
Case in point: my party had a little down time. We didn't know how long the down time would last. We were low on gold. My character had ranks in Sculpting and had just obtained the Energy Wall power. I had her take a little trip down to the riverside and start sculpting figurines out of river clay. Then, to fire them, I attempted an Energy Wall, which has a duration of Concentration + 1 round/level.
My DM immediately simply declared that this would not work. I was told that there was no way that I could concentrate for the length of time required to fire the figurines, and that even if I could the Energy Wall didn't produce enough heat to accomplish the task.
To me, this was wrong-headed on two counts. One, there are rules for how much damage certain heat sources do. A forge does 3d6 damage/round, IIRC. A fire-type Energy Wall does 2d6 + 2 + 1/level. To me a forge and a kiln would seem comparable, and the damage types comparable, so the amount of heat would be comparable, too.
The second reason it's wrong-headed is that the Concentration skill exists for a reason. Concentrating for a long time is difficult, to be sure. Maybe even next-to-impossible. But next-to-impossible means still possible, and we're dealing with a game involving heroic characters, here. My character had intentionally picked a spot away from distractions to facilitate her efforts, was focused on her goal, etc. I should have at least been allowed to roll for it. Sure, the DC would have been high, but, again, there are rules for determining difficulty.
In other words, don't stomp on your players' creativity just because something seems improbable to you.
Okay, mini rant over. :)
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yes, that was the thread, thanks. =D
i find that sad that the dm stomped on that out of hand. i had a similar idea where i was using a pyrokinetic and a sandshaper to make some interesting glass figurines. playing around with different kinds of sand and the resulting colors became quite interesting. stained glass windows too. ^^
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This thread really helps to put things in perspective. I have a history of cancer in my family that has claimed a few relatives that I can remember. It looks like your niece has alot of people giving her the moral support she needs to get through this. I add my well-wishings and prayers to those already given. (I.. Fortythird that notion? or something like that)
Anywho, to adress the issue at hand. You were wise to withdraw from this game. It's nice to see someone who tries their hardest to use diplomacy to resolve issues. Sometimes the knee-jerk reaction isn't the best way to handle things. I applaud your responsible handling of this situation. It's never easy to walk away from a game when it's so hard to actually find people in your neck of the woods who share such interests.
If you ever find yourself without a place to play, come on over to my neck of the woods: s7.zetaboards.com/salin (http://s7.zetaboards.com/salin)
We're a small pbp community. We tend to play relatively high-powered games and would always welcome anyone who feels like a good game. I've a few games open, myself if you're interested. You seem like the kind that I would enjoy having in one of my games.
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My DM immediately simply declared that this would not work.
this guy is a douche bathes in massingill.
it's "wrong headed" because he likes to crush creativity and joy.
he probably also enjoys kicking over sandcastles and dropping turds on hopscotch boards.
this guy doesn't, by chance, drive a beat-up van with "FREE CANDY" spray-painted on the side, does he?
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If you wish to pray for my family Amerchra feel free to, the power of prayer/positive thought/good vibes may be impossible to measure but it certainly does exist.
Your newer story Saeomon seems to just reinforce the fact that this guy is a poor DM that simply can't handle things that don't fit into his very narrow view of things.
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A real RP choice and he squishes it why? ??? Not game-breaking move, a nice tie in of class and concept, and its just, "No!" :banghead
I respect the efforts you've put into leaving on a respectful note sir.
On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
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On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.
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On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.
I'll give it a day or so, gives people who'd powerfully disagree to chime in.
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On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.
This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".
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I read the descriptions of the other party members, and noticed a pattern -- all of them are either inexperienced, or have created highly under-powered characters. You, on the other hand, have gone to great lengths to give your character "no discernable weaknesses." You feel that D&D should be played a certain way, where you get to use your wide knowledge of character choices to make an optimized character. But doing that in such an unoptimized party puts you in a position where you overshadow everyone else, and make things difficult for the DM. Each time the DM creates an encounter, he has to think, "What will challenge the party? Now what will challenge both the party and Saeomon, without killing the party?"
I play with someone who has a similar attitude. He's a good guy, he's fun to play with, and he contributes both in and out of combat. However, he can be a pain to the DMs, constantly trying to get away with things and to slip in overpowered options. He creates characters with "no discernable weaknesses," who also have at least one stregth which is so overwhelming that every encounter must be skewed to accomodate him. A side-effect of this is that, whenever he asks for something, even if it's reasonable, the DM has to wonder if he's up to something.
This player does NOT deliberately try to make life hard for the DM, but his play style has that effect anyway. He does not believe that his characters are particularly overpowered. He believes that, with every character, he has deliberately reduced the power for role-playing reasons. However, he's so much better at optimization than the rest of us, that all his good intentions are for naught.
You say you've played with this DM for 10 years. It's possible that the DM has had this difficulty so often that he always assumes you're up to something. This could be what makes him reject even your most reasonable requests.
If you ever return to this group, I suggest you try something which may be quite difficult, given your preferred play style: Create a character using nothing but the PHB. Maybe even choose one of the less powerful classes, like ranger or monk. Don't make any special requests at all. It's possible that your DM will still be a jerk. It's possible that you won't have any fun with the limited choices. But it might be worth a try, to resume a relationship with a DM you've enjoyed playing with for ten years.
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I wrote my last post after only reading the first page of this thread. Clearly, you've already thought of my suggestions, and after trying to reconcile with the DM, were shouted down. I'd say you were right to leave the group. Ah well.
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On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.
This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".
:lol
sig-worthy (too bad my sig is already full)
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Hi, Zioth. :) I want to take the time to reply to your post, just to give a little insight about the group in which I was playing. I didn't take anything you wrote personally, and I read your second message that says you posted your first one after only reading the first page of the thread. Nevertheless, I just want to point out a few things that might shed some light onto the group dynamics.
I read the descriptions of the other party members, and noticed a pattern -- all of them are either inexperienced, or have created highly under-powered characters.
In the grand scheme of things, my experience at gaming compared to the rest of the group was rather less than the average. I wasn't the least experienced player, but I'd say that everyone else at the table had either roughly the same amount of experience as I do or more. There was one guy at the table who had been gaming for longer than some of the rest of us had been alive.
In fact, the only person I'm sure had less experience than me was the person playing the Half-Orc Fighter. The person playing the Ranger/Sorcerer may have had less experience, but I dunno.
As for their creating under-powered characters...save for the Druid, of course...yeah, I noticed. I even brought it to my DM's attention. I was always told to play the character I wanted to play. There were no up-front restrictions, even on books. Nevertheless, the DM reserved the right of rejection.
Because everything was allegedly fair game, but right of rejection was reserved, everything had to be run by the DM first. I suspect that the others who've suggested DM burn-out is the culprit are right: my DM was tired of having to deal with how the psionics system worked in the context of this campaign.
You, on the other hand, have gone to great lengths to give your character "no discernable weaknesses." You feel that D&D should be played a certain way, where you get to use your wide knowledge of character choices to make an optimized character.
Heh...it turns out that making an optimized Psion isn't all that difficult, so I didn't go to great lengths really. :) The choices I've made with my character really aren't all that different from the ones I would've made was I unfamiliar with optimization theory and practice. I really think it's more of a matter of comparative power levels.
I really don't think that D&D should be played a certain way. What I do think is that a DM needs to be forthright about the kind of game he or she intends to run. Looking back, and putting matters into terms of the Tier system, my DM appears to have intended a Tier 3/Tier 4 campaign. But on the occasions I offered to tone down my character, at best I got rebuffed. As you can see by the email conversation I posted, my DM even got mad.
Players can't be expected to read the DM's mind. At a certain point you have to take the words "play whatever you like" at face value.
This player does NOT deliberately try to make life hard for the DM, but his play style has that effect anyway. He does not believe that his characters are particularly overpowered. He believes that, with every character, he has deliberately reduced the power for role-playing reasons. However, he's so much better at optimization than the rest of us, that all his good intentions are for naught.
This is a very good point, and it's given me some food for thought. I empathize with this guy.
I still think that it all comes down to communication, or lack thereof. There needed to be better communication between my DM and me. I'm a reasonable person. If I had been approached in a reasonable manner I would have responded in kind. Instead, it seems, things were allowed to fester on my DM's end.
You say you've played with this DM for 10 years. It's possible that the DM has had this difficulty so often that he always assumes you're up to something. This could be what makes him reject even your most reasonable requests.
This was actually the first extended campaign I'd been in with this DM for a long, long while. We've known each other for over 10 years, but the last time we gamed together on a regular basis was back in college and shortly thereafter. It's been roughly 8 years since we had a regular campaign going.
It was also my first time getting back into gaming, period, after a lengthy hiatus during law school.
So, while I do see the point you're trying to make, that particular point doesn't apply to this situation. There just hasn't been enough recent history to build up a pattern of behavior on my part or on my DM's part.
If you ever return to this group, I suggest you try something which may be quite difficult, given your preferred play style: Create a character using nothing but the PHB. Maybe even choose one of the less powerful classes, like ranger or monk.
It's hilarious that you mention a PHB-only campaign using only Ranger or Monk. I had been planning on implementing a PHB/SRD-only campaign with this group in the not-too-distant future, before things went to crap. Though many have shown that even Core isn't balanced, at the very least going PHB/SRD-only rules out the vast majority of the most egregious methods of breaking a game.
Also, Ranger and Monk are my favorite classes. I've played more Rangers than anyone has a right to, and there is a soft spot in my heart for the Monk, which is my second-most-often-played class.
If I was a gestalt character, I'd be a Ranger/Monk and I'd be damn proud of my suckitude.
Don't make any special requests at all. It's possible that your DM will still be a jerk. It's possible that you won't have any fun with the limited choices. But it might be worth a try, to resume a relationship with a DM you've enjoyed playing with for ten years.
It remains to be seen how things work out. There's still a lot going on in my life and my family's life. Fortunately, things are getting better. In one area, there's been enough improvement to warrant a separate post. :-)
Thank you, again, for your constructive criticism. You've definitely given me a number of things to think about.
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My niece is going home, today!!! I believe these smilies best capture how I'm feeling right now: :birthday :jumping :D :dogpile :pie
Thank you, everyone, for your many good thoughts and prayers! She still has a long road ahead of her but this is a huge first step. I know that both she and her mom and dad will be so much more comfortable at home than at the hospital.
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My niece is going home, today!!! I believe these smilies best capture how I'm feeling right now: :birthday :jumping :D :dogpile :pie
Thank you, everyone, for your many good thoughts and prayers! She still has a long road ahead of her but this is a huge first step. I know that both she and her mom and dad will be so much more comfortable at home than at the hospital.
That is AWESOME news, Saeomon! I've had this page on my browser and refreshed it every time I'm at the comp waiting to see the updates, and I think I speak for everyone here that that's the news we were hoping to hear. Give her a hug from me and my family, and her family as well.
And for the record, a Mystic Shooting Star Ranger of the Arcane Order//Monk can kick plenty of asses :P
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My niece is going home, today!!! I believe these smilies best capture how I'm feeling right now: :birthday :jumping :D :dogpile :pie
Thank you, everyone, for your many good thoughts and prayers! She still has a long road ahead of her but this is a huge first step. I know that both she and her mom and dad will be so much more comfortable at home than at the hospital.
This is wonderful news. I'm so glad to see a step in the right direction for her.
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Oh, GREAT NEWS!
I'm so glad your niece is getting better.
Make sure that both you and her parents give her plenty of love.
As for the monk/ranger thing, try going monk/kensai and turning your body into a throwing/distance/returning weapon, so you can flurry up to 100' away! And you can effectively teleport as an attack action, 'cuz you don't have to use returning if you don't wanna.
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That is the best news I've heard all day!
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Kell speaks for all of us, thats what we've been hoping to hear :birthday Awesome news!
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Indeed, best of luck! :bounce
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Sweet :)
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Thank you so much, everyone! :D
Gonna suggest to my wife that we go out and have a drink to celebrate after I get home tonight. It's a huge relief to know they're getting out of there. Hospitals aren't restful at all.
As for the monk/ranger thing, try going monk/kensai and turning your body into a throwing/distance/returning weapon, so you can flurry up to 100' away! And you can effectively teleport as an attack action, 'cuz you don't have to use returning if you don't wanna.
That's a really amusing idea. I like it. :)
If I had to say what I'd WANNA be, and if we were to dip outta Core, it'd be something more along the lines of a gestalt Unarmed Swordsage//Seer Psion/Slayer. Think "medieval wandering investigator/judge who can kick your ass with his blade, his body, and his mind." Not that I'm capable of doing any of those things IRL. And not that that build is necessarily a good build or even a legal build...
But that's neither here nor there. I'm just rambling. It's because I'm feeling happy. Today is a good day.
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*dances with glee*
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:jumping :dogpile : Definitely the best news that I have read today :clap :clap
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Who wants cake?
Cheesecake or beefcake, your choice!
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The more I read from you, the more reasonable and open you seem. I'd welcome you to any campaign I ran, if you were in my area. It's too bad communication was so poor in this campaign. Some people just aren't good at that. They don't want to tell you what to do, but they assume that what they consider "reasonable" and "common sense" is universal, and are surprised when others don't act in accordance with their views. I hope you find a good game to join in the future.
Also, Ranger and Monk are my favorite classes. I've played more Rangers than anyone has a right to, and there is a soft spot in my heart for the Monk, which is my second-most-often-played class.
I'm a fan of them myself. I'm currently playing a Ranger/Monk type (with other classes thrown in).
I'm happy to hear about your neice. I hope everything goes well for her from now on.
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Happy happy joy joy
(repeat)
{ ... insert there is no Ren And Stimpy smiley face ... }
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Happy happy joy joy
(repeat)
{ ... insert there is no Ren And Stimpy smiley face ... }
Okay, now I'm just horrified.
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I really need to bookmark this entire thread...pretty much sums up my experiences in almost every campaign i've ever played in, and pretty much describes every DM I have ever had.
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Thought I'd take a moment to share a few pictures of my niece with all of you (https://picasaweb.google.com/ephemeralnotion/Maddie?feat=directlink). I really can't tell you enough how much my family and I appreciate all of the thoughts and prayers.
These photos were all taken by my brother- and sister-in-law. I've captioned them to give a little background or explain the significance.
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Thought I'd take a moment to share a few pictures of my niece with all of you (https://picasaweb.google.com/ephemeralnotion/Maddie?feat=directlink). I really can't tell you enough how much my family and I appreciate all of the thoughts and prayers.
These photos were all taken by my brother- and sister-in-law. I've captioned them to give a little background or explain the significance.
That is awesome man :D I showed my wife as well, and she instructed me to tell you to "give that baby a big ole hug from me!"
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Cute little tyke. Glad to see the kidlet well again :)
P.S. I agree, the touque is adorable on her.
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super cute. =D may things continue to improve. =D
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Here's a little update about the original topic of this thread.
I spoke with one of the other group members yesterday.
I was told the DM is still happy to have me at the table.
No direct re-invitation has been made, but the direct lines of communication between the DM and me are down by mutual assent.
I can see three options: (1) return to the game; (2) do nothing; (3) contact the DM and decline.
What ought I to do?
Are there any other viable options I've missed?
Remember, I'm trying to take the high road here. :)
Oh, and believe me, I wouldn't return without first resolving the underlying issue.
Heh...I'm not just gonna cave.
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Start your own game. With beer, and hookers.
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I'd vote #2. If the DM really wants you back in the game he will contact you. If he is just trying to save face or be nice then he won't really have changed anything and you are back at square 1. Either way I don't see 1 or 3 improving the situation and either could potentially make it worse.
I can relate to having an individual say the DM has invited you to the game. I recently went through this with a former DM running a Wheel of Time game. They found out I had been reading the books and told a mutual acquittance I was welcome at the game. I contacted them a few time to discuss possible characters and get a feel for the game's dynamics. After weeks of me contacting them and trying to get them to give me a date for getting together to make my character I gave up on them. I told them I would wait to hear from them on making my character and haven't heard from them since. One of the other players agreed with my thoughts on the situation of the DM extending the invitation to try and be nice, but never expecting I would accept. Once I had accepted they just gave me the run around until I left them alone about it.
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Have the mutual friend that told you of the invitation tell the DM (preferably in front of the other players) that you would not feel comfortable returning without a direct invitation.
Or something to that effect putting the onus on the DM.
Of course, if you don't actually want to return then this is not a good idea as it could lead to you being the 'jerk' if he actually did contact you :)
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People have an urge to reconcile after mishaps, especially if theres no social 'cost' to bear, like pride or admitting he over-reacted. Usually the original issues resurface after the gloss of reconciliation fades.
Yes, I'm bitter :rollseyes, but I'm also a Psych major :smirk We have stats.
I'm not saying he needs to apologise or admit, or what have you, but certainly this appears to be a sugar glossing of a gesture. If he wants you back in the game he'll contact you.
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Start your own game. With beer, and hookers.
... and coke. you can't have hookers without the coke.
on a serious note, I'd have to concur with the following 3 responses.
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hmmm. i might suggest different accouterments, but i'd lean towards starting your own game, or at least finding another group. penandpapergames is a very good place to search.
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If the DM really wanted/wants you back then at the very least he should e-mail said wish to you directly. And before agreeing you should both have a talk about how things needs to be run from the return.
If you simply return without having a good talk on how he and you want things to be then you will likely end up pissing each other of again.
I think that the people suggesting that he was burnedout was dead on. It makes sense of all the things you've written about. If he's burned out of course he is going to see every little talk between you and him about rules and power as you trying yet another trick that will further skew the powerbalance.
Someone wrote that you shouldn't have made a character as powerful as you did... It might have been a way to go. But to be honest creating a rogue/cleric 3/3 is simply without hope and you wouldn't be able to create a character that was as useless. At least not without being in a grave risk of dying.
And just for everyone out there. Remember to do big talks on what you want and expect from the game BEFORE starting the campaign/game. This way you avoid situations like this.
Find out what tier the DM feels comfortable with creating encounters for. Make sure that the group is within 1 tier of each other. Offer assistance to people not able to create chars within 1 tier.
Follow those simple steps and you'll have a DM that is able and willing to create appropriate challenges for you and you'll have a group that should be reasonably balanced.
On a side note. Belated congratulations with your niece. May you and your family be blessed with much happiness from here on out.
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What ought I to do?
Are there any other viable options I've missed?
4) Thank the group member, explain that you're too busy in the immediate term, but when they reach the end of the campaign, you'd like to get back in touch and see if you can [be involved in|run] the next one.
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Congratulation about Niece :)
About original Topic. If he want you he will call you. otherwise It's only playing Good Uncle Ben for the rest of the Party.
I also agree about creating a Hero. The character you want, without any Mechanical minuses.
The GM is the world. He can ALWAYS call bigger and stronger opponent to the table. Of course I(Player) have responsibility to the Game like GM but I never understand to not allowing Players playing what they want. When I'm em GM I can handle Artificer+Erudite+Druid in team. No problem.
If other party member, buy their choice, are weaken then I=GM will ask you alone thou you have any against giving Grimuar of Constitutian to barbarian... or Bow=Artifact to the Mystic archer. All that so they have something to have Fun. Why taking Good player down when GM should pushing bad players up? Other make a appointment and disgust witch players how they can by more powerful.
For my now problem witch total Retraining character. Loosing the Rogue Lvl for Cleric or Cleric to Rogue...
They are many option for GM to make weaker player stronger.
Item, Gift from God, Special Tattoo, Dragonmark(From eberron) Template, Grimuar... Unique elixir that grand special power.... The legendary Mentor ho teach one of them Extra Feat... or Manoeuvre.
Why GM almost always chose to take down Good player? (I meant powerful) Ho just try and give allot from himself?
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Yeah it is tough sitting there knowing your child is under the knife. It is important that they have trust in her doctors, without that they will constantly dwell on the "what ifs" and wonder if the doctor screwed up or has her best interest at heart (1). The best advice I can give for when they are freaking out over things is to ask themselves "is there anything I could have done to make this better?" if they answer honestly the response will almost invariably be no. Once as a parent you come to the realization that there isn't anything more you can do and you need is to have faith that it will turn out alright you are a lot less stressed.
@Awaken DM I won't take the prize. I have a happy and wonderful baby girl that lights up everyone's day. To the point of the nurses in the cardio ICU wanting to take her home with them, they became an extended part of our family. So while it may occasionally throw a curve ball, life is still good.
Yeah, they're coming to terms with the fact that there was nothing they did to cause this, nothing they could have done to prevent it, and that they're doing all that they can do and it's the very best that any parent could do.
My wife and I have had several conversations with them about their guilt. They were kicking themselves quite a bit at first, because in the weeks leading up to my niece going into the hospital, she wasn't sleeping but for around 12 minutes at a time. She'd wake up bawling and be nearly inconsolable. They said it got to the point where they were letting their feelings show in front of her. Of course, they were exhausted, so it was a very human response. However, I can understand feeling guilty when they found out that the reason why she wasn't sleeping was because the tumor was pressing against her insides. But they didn't know. If they had known then they would have acted entirely differently.
and
This thread has grown to be about so much more than Psychic reformation.
Nah.
It's still about Psychic Reformation.
You can't play D&D all the time.
Especially if Real Life has some serious stuff going on.
And besides ... everyone needs a "Skill Focus: Heal" bonus of +3 every now and then.
;)
note --- any attempt to keep skill focus heal after a psychic reformation, is at users risk only.