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The Thinktank => Min/Max It! => : beardman February 23, 2011, 07:32:53 PM

: (3.5) Need help with cleric/necromancer.
: beardman February 23, 2011, 07:32:53 PM
I'll be starting a new 3.5 campaign and need help making a character.  I want to play a human LN cleric of Wee Jas because I've always wanted to have a few shambling buddies to follow me around.

Here are the rules for character creation with allowable sources.  "Characters are allowed to play any WotC class and races (no ECL's, no Psionics) remember if you play race or class not readily accepted by society it may impact how you function in both the party and the world. If playing a race or class not in core books please bring the information you pulled it from.

3.Hp is full value for first and roll each level after (re roll ones on HP)

4. Starting gold is 2700 characters can buy anything they can afford except rings of sustenance and weight counts so keep an eye on carrying capacity remember things like bedrolls and water skins, clothes, rations you are adventures and there may not always be a holiday inn nearby.

**Please also bring both a level 3 AND level 4 CS. DM plans to level quickly."

In addition there are a few tidbits that weren't mentioned above.  No evil characters.  I know he frowns upon Unearthed Arcana variant races.  Although not outright banned I'm sure a character from any of those races would receive extra attention in a most unpleasant manner.  No retraining allowed. 

My stats are: 18, 17, 16, 13, 13 and 12.  I've read both the revised necromancer thread on wizards.com optimization boards and the cleric handbook on this board and feel a bit overwhelmed.  Although I've got extensive experience playing both DnD and clerics, I must confess I've never played a caster in 3.5.

Here are some ideas I have regarding character career path.
-Straight cleric 20 focusing on divine metamagic and undead creation.
-Cloistered cleric/necromancer/dweomerkeeper/mystic theurge.  Although this has me excited for the possibilities it seems much more difficult to build.  Choice of initial domains (very confused at that) and feats (not quite as confused at that) seem to be crucial to making this character.  This build also fits thematically with the deity as well.

I'd be willing to entertain other ideas if there's anything I've missed.

Thanks for reading and have a bearded day.
: Re: (3.5) Need help with cleric/necromancer.
: Bester February 23, 2011, 07:55:34 PM
I hate rolling HPs.  See if you can talk the DM into ironheros 1d4+x where x is HD - 4.

Lord of Uttercold Necropolitan type builds always interested me.  Stand in your cold wall and feel the HP goodness along with your buddies.

Most people view necromancy as evil, and digging up corpses of loved ones won't sit well with most NPCs.  Disguise your minions in Arctic gear.

Grab a bag of holding full of snow for snowcasting.  Pretend to be a lost expedition from the cold areas of the world.  The perfect cover.
: Re: (3.5) Need help with cleric/necromancer.
: PhaedrusXY February 23, 2011, 11:08:18 PM
For low to mid levels, I really like the Master of Shrouds for necromancy-based clerics. It is a bit different, though, and early entry will cost you two caster levels worth of spell progression. Here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=346.msg140776#msg140776) is a build of mine that I actually used in a "gauntlet" that uses it.

That build also uses Divine Magician, which is an awesome ACF. So awesome, that it has its own handbook in the handbooks section.

If you like "casty" clerics, Shadowcraft Mage is a great PrC. It's a bit tricky to enter, but you can actually get in early more easily with cleric than most wizard builds. Here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=346.msg8912#msg8912) are a few character builds that use that.

But just going with cleric/whatever PrC you like with a focus on Divine Metamagic and undead creation certainly isn't a bad way to go.
: Re: (3.5) Need help with cleric/necromancer.
: Tshern February 23, 2011, 11:10:32 PM
I hate rolling HPs.  See if you can talk the DM into ironheros 1d4+x where x is HD - 4.
So basically that would make you gain less hitpoints at lower levels? A smart choice there.
: Re: (3.5) Need help with cleric/necromancer.
: Bester February 23, 2011, 11:49:30 PM
I hate rolling HPs.  See if you can talk the DM into ironheros 1d4+x where x is HD - 4.
So basically that would make you gain less hitpoints at lower levels? A smart choice there.

You don't roll HP at level 1.  3.0 and onward.  That's just normal even with alternate rolling rules.

If you roll at each level after that, then you only punish the noncasters.  Rolling a 1 on a d4 means nothing to a wizard...what does it mean to a barbarian who rolls d12?

Anywho, the method might need to be explained better.  It's Barbarian is 1d4+8, Fighter is 1d4+6, cleric is 1d4+4, rogue is 1d4+2 etc.  As somebody who has never rolled above a 3 (90% 1s in fact) on Hit Points, I can tell you that rolling Hit points is a trap.
: Re: (3.5) Need help with cleric/necromancer.
: Tshern February 23, 2011, 11:53:36 PM
I think we had a misunderstanding there. More specifically, I did. I somehow read you said you would have 1d4-x, where x is HD-4. I have no idea what I was thinking. In short, you were right, sorry about that.
: Re: (3.5) Need help with cleric/necromancer.
: Bester February 24, 2011, 12:14:35 AM
I am so unlucky at rolling HPs that we instituted that reroll 1s rule in a game 6 years ago and I rolled 2 "1"s in a row on my d10.  Then, next level, I got all smart and rolled 2 d10s at the same time...both 1s just to prove that I cannot have HPs.

I am dead serious.  Whenever somebody says "we will be rolling HPs" and doesn't use some alternate method, I refuse to play.
: Re: (3.5) Need help with cleric/necromancer.
: beardman February 24, 2011, 02:12:23 AM
Thanks Phaedrus.  Both of those are good ideas although I don't think that either is quite what I'm looking for.  Do you have any other suggestions for prestige classes?

I talked to the DM this evening.  He stated that undead would play a significant part in the campaign and that rebuking (or some other method of control; my interpretation) would be important.  At this point I'd be happy to entertain any suggestions.  Even if they were as simple as choosing domains to begin with. 

Thanks for reading and have a bearded day.
: Re: (3.5) Need help with cleric/necromancer.
: Bester February 24, 2011, 02:34:13 AM
Planning and Undeath for your domains.

You are planning to do something with undead correct?

Also, those are the 2 feats for Divine Metacheese.  Tomb-tainted soul is a neat feat if your party doesn't mind blowing one of their feats on it.  It's pretty much right there in the handbook.
: Re: (3.5) Need help with cleric/necromancer.
: Andion Isurand February 24, 2011, 02:52:44 AM
If you never plan on wearing armor, you could take a look at the Divine Gestures flaw (in exchange for any feat for which you qualify) from Dragon Magazine 326 pg 91.

Basically it makes all your divine spells provoke a chance of spell failure due to shields and armor etc... as if they were arcane spells.
: Re: (3.5) Need help with cleric/necromancer.
: Endarire February 24, 2011, 04:59:41 AM
Consider Cloistered Cleric10/Contemplative6 (Complete Divine)/Cloistered Cleric+4.  It gets you the most important aspects.

Otherwise, heed K's Necromancer Handbook's advice.
: Re: (3.5) Need help with cleric/necromancer.
: Tenebrous Apostate February 24, 2011, 07:02:39 AM
I'd suggest an Eldritch theurge instead of mystic theurge since you can use staffs and scrolls etc with the Magic domain. Although you're LN you could play a dragonfire adept with the Extra invocation feat for the Dead Walk invocation and thus have double shambling buddies  :D
: Re: (3.5) Need help with cleric/necromancer.
: Rebel7284 February 24, 2011, 09:46:59 AM
Wee Jas eh?  Well Ruby Knight Vindicators are GREAT tanks, but they don't really focus on turning.
Cleric 4/Crusader 1/RKV 10 can still get 9th level spells and gets extra swift actions.

For a better casting approach,
Cloistered Cleric 4/Dread Necromancer 1/Dweomerkeeper 10 gets both turning and rebuking along with supernatural spells.

In any case, Divine Metamagic wins.  Note that Wee Jas does have mediocre domains if you use her.

: Re: (3.5) Need help with cleric/necromancer.
: snakeman830 February 24, 2011, 03:18:25 PM
I seem to remember some source expanding Wee Jas's domains.  Can't recall which book it was, but she ended up with some decent ones.
: Re: (3.5) Need help with cleric/necromancer.
: beardman February 24, 2011, 04:18:03 PM
I chose Wee Jas as a deity because of being a neutrally aligned death deity.  I don't think the DM would allow even a neutrally aligned cleric of an evil deity.  I'd be open to suggestions though.  Complete Divine expanded her portfolio to include domination and mind as well as what was listed in the PHB.

How about cloistered cleric 3(+)/necromancer 1/dweomerkeeper 10?  The necromancer would be the variant from Unearthed Arcana where all undead created receive +4 str and +2 hp/hd.  It would also give the item creation feat for entrance in to Dweomerkeeper.  It would be weak on turning though unless somebody has a way around that.

Ruby Knight Vindicator also sounds good.

Thanks for reading and have a bearded day.
: Re: (3.5) Need help with cleric/necromancer.
: Midnight_v February 24, 2011, 06:26:06 PM
Hey beardman welcome to the boards.
I have to honestly suggest going for 1 or 2 very strong minions
Stay away from the horde of undead mentality. Playing a Cleric 20 is valid option
and simple, and very hard for someone to be like "I ban this!" typically.
So yeah, aside from that use summon undead. You don't have to over optimize
a cleric, honestly. I'd give the life as a necromancer (actually summoning and Controling) 3 feats and spend the rest of
your resources being a better caster overall. It'll really demo the way things work that you can't learn in a guide.
: Re: (3.5) Need help with cleric/necromancer.
: PhaedrusXY February 25, 2011, 12:51:38 AM
There really aren't any good "necromancer" cleric prestige classes for D&D 3.5, unless you use 3rd party or homebrewed material.

I absolutely would suggest getting Command Undead as a spell somehow, though (or in a wand, or scrolls, etc). That spell and Hide from Undead are mind-blowingly powerful in campaigns that feature a lot of mindless undead... Rebuking generally isn't worth that much, unless you optimize the hell out of it. Undead hit dice scales much faster than their CR usually, making it useless past the first couple of levels.
: Re: (3.5) Need help with cleric/necromancer.
: Bozwevial February 25, 2011, 01:27:27 AM
There really aren't any good "necromancer" cleric prestige classes for D&D 3.5, unless you use 3rd party or homebrewed material.

I absolutely would suggest getting Command Undead as a spell somehow, though (or in a wand, or scrolls, etc). That spell and Hide from Undead are mind-blowingly powerful in campaigns that feature a lot of mindless undead... Rebuking generally isn't worth that much, unless you optimize the hell out of it. Undead hit dice scales much faster than their CR usually, making it useless past the first couple of levels.
Seconding Hide From Undead. The Magic Item Compendium has an item, the Shirt of Wraith-Stalking, that has it on constantly. The best part is that even intelligent undead don't get a save, which is an absolute godsend in undead-heavy campaigns.
: Re: (3.5) Need help with cleric/necromancer.
: Sobolev February 25, 2011, 01:39:28 AM
There's some feat that makes you invisible to mindless undead, but after typing that I think it might be a vile feat, which might not be up your alley.  Also if you do Hide from Undead you can look in to getting a Rod of Animated Dead DR 331 pg66, and just summon some undead to Rebuke.
: Re: (3.5) Need help with cleric/necromancer.
: Andion Isurand February 25, 2011, 05:24:37 AM
The Deathbound Domain from Libris Mortis is also worth looking at to increase the amount of undead you can control.
: Re: (3.5) Need help with cleric/necromancer.
: Tenebrous Apostate February 25, 2011, 07:21:19 AM
The Deathbound Domain from Libris Mortis is also worth looking at to increase the amount of undead you can control.
I second that thought although if you go caster find a way to get the Necromancer domain from the Eberron capaign setting.. +1 CL for necromancy spells and command undead on the list
: Re: (3.5) Need help with cleric/necromancer.
: Andion Isurand February 25, 2011, 07:32:49 AM
I would also recommend taking that Planar Touchstone feat (Planar Handbook 41) linked to the Catalogues of Enlightenment so you can cherry-pick an additional domain power.  As far as I know, you can gain any domain power you want.
: Re: (3.5) Need help with cleric/necromancer.
: beardman February 25, 2011, 03:46:09 PM
There's some feat that makes you invisible to mindless undead, but after typing that I think it might be a vile feat, which might not be up your alley.  Also if you do Hide from Undead you can look in to getting a Rod of Animated Dead DR 331 pg66, and just summon some undead to Rebuke.

You must be thinking of lich loved out of Book of Vile Darkness.  It's part of a feat tree that has an evil requirement so that won't fly. 

In related news I've discovered that clerics don't need to actually worship a deity but can choose their domains based upon alignment.  You learn the darnedest things reading the PHB!  I still couldn't find the mechanic by which a cleric chooses them though or what alignment qualifies for what domains.  Both the deathbound and undeath domain look good and the magic domain is a requirement for entrance to dweomerkeeper so that's a no brainer.

Something else that's been puzzling me.  Dweomerkeeper has a requirement of eight ranks in spellcraft and knowledge: arcana.  Does anyone know a manner of getting eight ranks for entrance to dweomerkeeper by fifth level?  The direction this character is going at the moment is ideally:

-cloistered cleric 4/dweomerkeeper 10/contemplative 6.  This would be kind of tight on feats as dweomerkeeper requires a metamagic and an item creation feat.  Another question is whether or not casting from a arcane scroll using the magic domain would satisfy the arcane caster requirement.  Hmm.  Every answer just leads to more questions.

-Or do you think I'd be better going cleric 3/necromancer 1/dweomerkeeper 10/contemplative 6?  The problem with this is that it loses a significant amount of xp to multi classing.

Thanks for reading (and putting up with my indecisiveness) and have a bearded day.
: Re: (3.5) Need help with cleric/necromancer.
: beardman March 04, 2011, 02:00:05 PM
First of all I'd like to thank everyone that's offered advice in this thread.  That being said I have a little update.

Here's what the character is looking like.

Human
"undead enhanced" necromancer 1/"cloistered" cleric 2
deity: wee jas
domains:  knowledge, magic and mind
str 13
dex 12
con 13
int 18
wis 17
cha 16
feats:  scribe scroll, fearsome necromancy, Divine meta magic: heighten spell

The divine meta magic has me set up to enter Mystic Theurge at level 4 and Dweomerkeeper at level 5.  Round it out with Contemplative for the rest.

The only significant magic item will be a hand of the mage to deliver touch spells and shaken status with.  Still have about 800 gold left over if anyone can suggest some magic items or spell scrolls.